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How AI takes strong enemy positions

 
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How AI takes strong enemy positions - 9/23/2006 11:55:30 AM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline 		It was watching Palembang I learned the way it works. I had seen it all before - at Bataan, at Manila,
at Singapore, at Hong Kong - but didn't understand it. Finally I looked at things from the ALLIED point of view.

In the latest medium term test of RHSEOS - to my surprise AI decided to attack Palembang at the same time
as Tabaoli (Banka) - both major supply sources and both with RHS supply sinks of some size in consequence.
It was as dumb as ever - I thought - land a fairly large force - support it with nothing - no bombardment by ships -
no air strikes - not even supplies. Just put a force in the hex big enough it won't be wiped out by any attacks.
Indeed, any attacks just hurt the Allies - they lose things (squads, supplies, morale) faster.

What AI then does is - nothing!

Turns out this is anything but stupid. This was probably coded to deal with Bataan - 40 units go there - representing IRL not less than 80,000 soldiers - maybe 110,000 (depending on who you believe). How do you beat two corps (which is what was at Bataan) with a vastly inferior force (which is what attacks Bataan IRL and in the game?

Wait.

Seems - even if the hex is a supply source - it produces NO supplies if the enemy is in the hex. If you wait, the enemy gets down to nothing supply wise. His morale follows that. And he also has fatigue levels skyrocket. Not sure how long it waits - it is months: might be until attacking units are planned up 100% - up to 100 days. But THEN the AI attacks - shock attacks - and it cleans up. Either the position surrenders, or survivors retreat into the bush.
Post #: 1
RE: How AI takes strong enemy positions - 9/23/2006 9:07:49 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline 		Well, several versions ago in RHSEOS...

The Japanese AI, without landing anything at Palembang, landed a lone artillery unit at Banka. I did not order it attacked, but Allied bombardment attacks continued from teh opposed landing. Several turns later it was 'Destroyed through attrition'.

A few weeks later the AI did it again...

I wish the AI were always as smart as you found.

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 2
RE: How AI takes strong enemy positions - 9/23/2006 11:43:55 PM   
akdreemer


Posts: 1028
Joined: 10/3/2004
From: Anchorage, Alaska
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

It was watching Palembang I learned the way it works. I had seen it all before - at Bataan, at Manila,
at Singapore, at Hong Kong - but didn't understand it. Finally I looked at things from the ALLIED point of view.

In the latest medium term test of RHSEOS - to my surprise AI decided to attack Palembang at the same time
as Tabaoli (Banka) - both major supply sources and both with RHS supply sinks of some size in consequence.
It was as dumb as ever - I thought - land a fairly large force - support it with nothing - no bombardment by ships -
no air strikes - not even supplies. Just put a force in the hex big enough it won't be wiped out by any attacks.
Indeed, any attacks just hurt the Allies - they lose things (squads, supplies, morale) faster.

What AI then does is - nothing!

Turns out this is anything but stupid. This was probably coded to deal with Bataan - 40 units go there - representing IRL not less than 80,000 soldiers - maybe 110,000 (depending on who you believe). How do you beat two corps (which is what was at Bataan) with a vastly inferior force (which is what attacks Bataan IRL and in the game?

Wait.

Seems - even if the hex is a supply source - it produces NO supplies if the enemy is in the hex. If you wait, the enemy gets down to nothing supply wise. His morale follows that. And he also has fatigue levels skyrocket. Not sure how long it waits - it is months: might be until attacking units are planned up 100% - up to 100 days. But THEN the AI attacks - shock attacks - and it cleans up. Either the position surrenders, or survivors retreat into the bush.

The manual states that no supplies, no resources, are generated in a hex that contains friendly and enemy units.

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 3
RE: How AI takes strong enemy positions - 9/24/2006 6:30:38 AM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Well, several versions ago in RHSEOS...

The Japanese AI, without landing anything at Palembang, landed a lone artillery unit at Banka. I did not order it attacked, but Allied bombardment attacks continued from teh opposed landing. Several turns later it was 'Destroyed through attrition'.

A few weeks later the AI did it again...

I wish the AI were always as smart as you found.



Well - it is dumb as a post. It routes oil and resources out near Palau en route to Osaka! That is, they go SOUTHEAST INTEAD OF NORTHEAST from Borneo and nearby points. It fails to load many ships bound for Japan with anything useful - which only has the merit of being typical of Japanese management style. It escorts almost nothing. So - yeah - it remains pretty dumb.

But now (some weeks later) I see it pounding Palembang and Taboali with bombers - prepratory to its assaults.
It ain't totally stupid.

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 4
RE: How AI takes strong enemy positions - 9/24/2006 6:31:20 AM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AlaskanWarrior

quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

It was watching Palembang I learned the way it works. I had seen it all before - at Bataan, at Manila,
at Singapore, at Hong Kong - but didn't understand it. Finally I looked at things from the ALLIED point of view.

In the latest medium term test of RHSEOS - to my surprise AI decided to attack Palembang at the same time
as Tabaoli (Banka) - both major supply sources and both with RHS supply sinks of some size in consequence.
It was as dumb as ever - I thought - land a fairly large force - support it with nothing - no bombardment by ships -
no air strikes - not even supplies. Just put a force in the hex big enough it won't be wiped out by any attacks.
Indeed, any attacks just hurt the Allies - they lose things (squads, supplies, morale) faster.

What AI then does is - nothing!

Turns out this is anything but stupid. This was probably coded to deal with Bataan - 40 units go there - representing IRL not less than 80,000 soldiers - maybe 110,000 (depending on who you believe). How do you beat two corps (which is what was at Bataan) with a vastly inferior force (which is what attacks Bataan IRL and in the game?

Wait.

Seems - even if the hex is a supply source - it produces NO supplies if the enemy is in the hex. If you wait, the enemy gets down to nothing supply wise. His morale follows that. And he also has fatigue levels skyrocket. Not sure how long it waits - it is months: might be until attacking units are planned up 100% - up to 100 days. But THEN the AI attacks - shock attacks - and it cleans up. Either the position surrenders, or survivors retreat into the bush.

The manual states that no supplies, no resources, are generated in a hex that contains friendly and enemy units.



Sure does. And I forgot that tactically - but whoever wrote code didn't.

(in reply to akdreemer)
Post #: 5
RE: How AI takes strong enemy positions - 9/24/2006 9:40:41 AM   
bbbf

 

Posts: 493
Joined: 7/16/2000
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Status: offline
[

Well - it is dumb as a post. It routes oil and resources out near Palau en route to Osaka! That is, they go SOUTHEAST INTEAD OF NORTHEAST from Borneo and nearby points. It fails to load many ships bound for Japan with anything useful - which only has the merit of being typical of Japanese management style. It escorts almost nothing. So - yeah - it remains pretty dumb.

But now (some weeks later) I see it pounding Palembang and Taboali with bombers - prepratory to its assaults.
It ain't totally stupid.
[/quote]


Actually, I don't think this is too dumb. Most Allied human players will stock the NE route with plenty of subs (actually I think the AI does this as well). The AI doesn't play the ASW game like a human player (who will tend to make life difficult for those Allied subs), so routing via Palau actually probably will result in less losses to subs - unless the Allied player works out that is where they are.

_____________________________

Robert Lee

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 6
RE: How AI takes strong enemy positions - 9/24/2006 2:51:43 PM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline 		"Actually, I don't think this is too dumb. Most Allied human players will stock the NE route with plenty of subs (actually I think the AI does this as well). The AI doesn't play the ASW game like a human player (who will tend to make life difficult for those Allied subs), so routing via Palau actually probably will result in less losses to subs - unless the Allied player works out that is where they are."


I wouldn't give the designers too much credit for this. The basic rule for routing ships seems to be for the US to go West, then South or North; and the Japanese to go East, then South or North. I doubt there is anything more subtile than that involved. Which is why so many people want "waypoints"

(in reply to bbbf)
Post #: 7
RE: How AI takes strong enemy positions - 9/24/2006 4:34:48 PM   
Hornsby

 

Posts: 7
Joined: 7/24/2006
From: Glasgow, Scotland
Status: offline 		Actually I have a newfound respect for the code. I recently discovered that TFs on a transport mission will alter course to avoid sighted submarines, also if a TF suffers an attack by land-based air, subsequent TFs will alter course to give an extra 2 - 4 hexes buffer to the base from which the attack came.
However there do have to be attackes before the AI will alter routes, so care must be taken if you wish to limit losses.

(in reply to Mike Scholl)
Post #: 8
RE: How AI takes strong enemy positions - 9/25/2006 3:26:38 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline 		Also noticed that AI "routine" TFs tend to change route slightly if suffering sub attacks. That came as surprise.

(in reply to Hornsby)
Post #: 9
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