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RE: Has Anyone Seen Flyboys Yet? - 9/30/2006 1:18:29 PM   
Apollo11


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Status: offline 		Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Onime No Kyo
Thin Red Line stunk to high heaven. I dont know if you can even qualify it as a war movie.


For me the "Thin Red Line" is superb war movie!

The combat scenes in "The Thin red Line" are nothing short of spectacular (i.e. almost on par with "Saving Private Ryan") - especially the "flying camera" scene when they ovecome Japanese defences and rush in!!!

BTW, IMHO, most of people who were in combat would relate that war is terrible experience that combines extreme action in very short time combined with time when only thing to do is think of home... "The Thin red Line" perfectly balances that...


Leo "Apollo11"

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RE: Has Anyone Seen Flyboys Yet? - 9/30/2006 1:32:30 PM   
Terminus


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Status: offline 		Thread, "Thin Red Line" was awful... As a piece of cinematic craftsmanship, it's on a par with The-Movie-That-Must-Not-Be-Named...



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RE: Has Anyone Seen Flyboys Yet? - 9/30/2006 5:12:16 PM   
tanjman


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Demosthenes

Why in the hell would the USAF make him an officer 70 years after the war?
For starters - the Lafayette Escadrille was a squadron in the FRENCH air service!
Political correctness knows no bounds I guess
quote:

ORIGINAL: pbear


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

I stand corrected on the Black Pilot, I did not know this. Interesting that this was the case in WWI considering all the discrimination the blacks endured prior to and after WWI. I still bet it is soooo far off the mark historically and is more a chick flick than anything.


It was not untill 1994 that the US Airforce reconized Eugene and commisioned him.

For Fact vs Fiction in Flyboys see:

http://www.mgm.com/flyboys/pdf/real_vs_reel.pdf#search=%22Eugene%20Skinner%20WW1%22




Because when the U.S. entered the war the Lafayette Escadrille pilots were offered commissions in the U.S. Air Service, but because of racisim Eugene wasn't.

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RE: Has Anyone Seen Flyboys Yet? - 9/30/2006 10:54:47 PM   
Onime No Kyo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus
how so?


I lump it all into the category of "Cold War propaganda regurgitation"....bad, bad evil, stupid Commies.

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RE: Has Anyone Seen Flyboys Yet? - 9/30/2006 10:55:03 PM   
Onime No Kyo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

I don't know about "most" of it. The Germans never sent a super-sniper to hunt for Zaitsev, but other than that...


Yes they did. That part is true.

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RE: Has Anyone Seen Flyboys Yet? - 9/30/2006 11:11:57 PM   
Onime No Kyo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

I don't know about "most" of it. The Germans never sent a super-sniper to hunt for Zaitsev, but other than that...


Yes, but then i don't consider the movie to be a "historical recreation" of Stalingrad in terms of the great scheme of things. Rather, i thought it was a well made and written movie that gives you a taste of war. Saving Private Ryan is another example (though i didn't warm to it for some reason) Loosely based on historical events, it was more about the drama of war than any real life recreation.


If all that is true than aa movie like Fly Boys is not a bad war movie by definition if youre willing to enjoy it out of historical context. One of my favorite movies is Starship Troopers, not because it had anything to do with the book or had any deep underlying meaning, but just cause itss damn fun to watch. But "war movie" by definition should be historically accurate...at least according to my standards....otherwise its just another action flic.

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RE: Has Anyone Seen Flyboys Yet? - 9/30/2006 11:31:46 PM   
Onime No Kyo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Thread, "Thin Red Line" was awful... As a piece of cinematic craftsmanship, it's on a par with The-Movie-That-Must-Not-Be-Named...




Que?

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RE: Has Anyone Seen Flyboys Yet? - 9/30/2006 11:46:49 PM   
Terminus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Onime No Kyo


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

I don't know about "most" of it. The Germans never sent a super-sniper to hunt for Zaitsev, but other than that...


Yes they did. That part is true.


No. There's no historical evidence for that... It's a good story, but that's all...

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Post #: 68
RE: Has Anyone Seen Flyboys Yet? - 9/30/2006 11:47:30 PM   
Terminus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Onime No Kyo


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Thread, "Thin Red Line" was awful... As a piece of cinematic craftsmanship, it's on a par with The-Movie-That-Must-Not-Be-Named...



Que?


The movie that's named for a US Navy base...


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Post #: 69
RE: Has Anyone Seen Flyboys Yet? - 10/1/2006 12:23:14 AM   
Onime No Kyo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus


quote:

ORIGINAL: Onime No Kyo


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Thread, "Thin Red Line" was awful... As a piece of cinematic craftsmanship, it's on a par with The-Movie-That-Must-Not-Be-Named...



Que?


The movie that's named for a US Navy base...





Oh.

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RE: Has Anyone Seen Flyboys Yet? - 10/1/2006 12:25:02 AM   
Onime No Kyo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus


quote:

ORIGINAL: Onime No Kyo


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

I don't know about "most" of it. The Germans never sent a super-sniper to hunt for Zaitsev, but other than that...


Yes they did. That part is true.


No. There's no historical evidence for that... It's a good story, but that's all...


There is enough evidence that they sent a guy out specifically to find Zaitsev. What his name was, whether he was the cheif instructor at the German sniper school or not, etc, is up for debate...and probably not just a little colored by Soviet propaganda.

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RE: Has Anyone Seen Flyboys Yet? - 10/1/2006 1:25:52 AM   
Nikademus


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quote:

If all that is true than aa movie like Fly Boys is not a bad war movie by definition if youre willing to enjoy it out of historical context. One of my favorite movies is Starship Troopers, not because it had anything to do with the book or had any deep underlying meaning, but just cause itss damn fun to watch. But "war movie" by definition should be historically accurate...at least according to my standards....otherwise its just another action flic.


Depends. EatG seems fairly accurate if viewed from the tactical viewpoint of the role of snipers in Stalingrad and the conditions/dangers they faced in that shattered city. It was never meant to be "historically" accurate in terms of specific events such as a contest between sniper experts. I felt it portrayed these things pretty well and the 'drama' of having two expert snipers on opposing sides added to the storytelling of the movie within that historical context. SPR allegedly (i actually missed the first part on the beaches of normandy) does the same thing giving a gritty reallife feel of the tactical battlefield.

Now if flyboys is trying to tell a story within the context of WWI air combat , and one is seeing men jumping off Zepelins to be rescued by friendly biplanes then it deserves to be rasberied just as U-571 got raszd for suggesting (more than suggesting) that the ol Red White and Blue was responsible for breaking Ultra.



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RE: Has Anyone Seen Flyboys Yet? - 10/1/2006 1:36:57 AM   
Speedysteve

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus
SPR allegedly (i actually missed the first part on the beaches of normandy) does the same thing giving a gritty reallife feel of the tactical battlefield.


You've NEVER seen the first 30 mins of SPR?!?

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RE: Has Anyone Seen Flyboys Yet? - 10/1/2006 1:42:07 AM   
Nikademus


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Status: offline 		nope....

I got to see the fun part where an entire squad of men get killed trying to save the life of one boy just because he's the only son of some distraught mother.



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RE: Has Anyone Seen Flyboys Yet? - 10/1/2006 2:06:27 AM   
Speedysteve

 

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Status: offline 		I stronly urge you to watch the first 30 mins of the film. IMO some of the best filmography made.

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RE: Has Anyone Seen Flyboys Yet? - 10/1/2006 4:16:45 AM   
Ramjet

 

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Status: offline 		Guys, there have been great war movies, just not recently. Cross of Iron, A Bridge Too Far, Battle of Britian, Midway, Tora Tora Tora, Zulu, Das Boot, We Were Soldiers; all titles I can think of right now. I highly recommend all these.

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Post #: 76
RE: Has Anyone Seen Flyboys Yet? - 10/1/2006 12:24:15 PM   
Terminus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Onime No Kyo

What his name was, whether he was the cheif instructor at the German sniper school or not, etc, is up for debate...and probably not just a little colored by Soviet propaganda.


Ya think? Please show me some of this evidence...

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RE: Has Anyone Seen Flyboys Yet? - 10/1/2006 12:36:02 PM   
Raverdave


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Status: offline 		A Long days Dying has to be one of the best war movies but very few people are aware of it.   
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0063237/



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RE: Has Anyone Seen Flyboys Yet? - 10/1/2006 1:06:49 PM   
Terminus


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Status: offline 		Never heard of that one, Raver, but you're right, it does sound interesting...

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RE: Has Anyone Seen Flyboys Yet? - 10/1/2006 1:57:32 PM   
Tetsuo

 

Posts: 28
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From: Sweden
Status: offline 		A movie that I highly recommend is Talvisota (Winter War). http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0098437/

About the Thin Red Line, I went and watched it with a couple of friends when it played here in the cinemas. Two of them actually fell asleep lol but I was glued to my seat for the entire movie. The brutality of the ending almost gets to be a little too much as both Japanese and Americans suffer.

Regarding the movie Flyboys I think Ill pass..

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Post #: 80
RE: Has Anyone Seen Flyboys Yet? - 10/1/2006 2:32:51 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

There is also superb movie about WWI pilots called "Aces High":

http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0075627/


This movie is nothing short of astounding...

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Post #: 81
RE: Has Anyone Seen Flyboys Yet? - 10/1/2006 3:20:23 PM   
Onime No Kyo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus


quote:

If all that is true than aa movie like Fly Boys is not a bad war movie by definition if youre willing to enjoy it out of historical context. One of my favorite movies is Starship Troopers, not because it had anything to do with the book or had any deep underlying meaning, but just cause itss damn fun to watch. But "war movie" by definition should be historically accurate...at least according to my standards....otherwise its just another action flic.


Depends. EatG seems fairly accurate if viewed from the tactical viewpoint of the role of snipers in Stalingrad and the conditions/dangers they faced in that shattered city. It was never meant to be "historically" accurate in terms of specific events such as a contest between sniper experts. I felt it portrayed these things pretty well and the 'drama' of having two expert snipers on opposing sides added to the storytelling of the movie within that historical context. SPR allegedly (i actually missed the first part on the beaches of normandy) does the same thing giving a gritty reallife feel of the tactical battlefield.

Now if flyboys is trying to tell a story within the context of WWI air combat , and one is seeing men jumping off Zepelins to be rescued by friendly biplanes then it deserves to be rasberied just as U-571 got raszd for suggesting (more than suggesting) that the ol Red White and Blue was responsible for breaking Ultra.




As for sniper combat, it might well be very realistic. There are other aspects of the movie, however, that leave something to be desired. These are some aspects that you might take for granted, but I dont think are very subtle at all.

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RE: Has Anyone Seen Flyboys Yet? - 10/1/2006 3:27:44 PM   
Onime No Kyo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ramjet

Guys, there have been great war movies, just not recently. Cross of Iron, A Bridge Too Far, Battle of Britian, Midway, Tora Tora Tora, Zulu, Das Boot, We Were Soldiers; all titles I can think of right now. I highly recommend all these.


Bridge too Far, BoB, Midway and to a greater or lesser extent Tora...present a rather glorified and propagandized version of war, IMHO. You can add the "Big Red One" to that list.

Zulu is a great movie although I've heard that in many respects its is grossely inacurate and unfair to some of the battles most important participants.

Das Boot...a classic, of course.

We Were Soldiers was a good movie right up until the very end. And very faithful to the book, again right up to the very end. But the very last scene just ruined the whole movie for me. What the hell was it with the Ramboesque chopper anyway? Besides that, they missed the bus big time by not portraying the march out as IMO it was the most tragic part of the battle and must be told if you plan to be honest.

To those I would also like to add The Longest Day (the best of the "old" war movies, I think) and Blackhawk Down (there is not another movie that I know of that is that faithfully recreated on film).

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RE: Has Anyone Seen Flyboys Yet? - 10/1/2006 3:32:41 PM   
Terminus


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Status: offline 		Yup, Blackhawk Down was fantastic...

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RE: Has Anyone Seen Flyboys Yet? - 10/1/2006 3:34:37 PM   
Onime No Kyo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus


quote:

ORIGINAL: Onime No Kyo

What his name was, whether he was the cheif instructor at the German sniper school or not, etc, is up for debate...and probably not just a little colored by Soviet propaganda.


Ya think? Please show me some of this evidence...


I'm sure youve seem the evidence...any self respecting account of the battle mentions it, from Krilov to Beevor. Dont be so contrary. If youre disinclined to belive it, thats one thing, and I might even agree with you in places. But its not the same as saying it didnt happen.

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RE: Has Anyone Seen Flyboys Yet? - 10/1/2006 3:40:33 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
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From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Look at page 204 in Beevor. I quote,

"Some Soviet sources claim that the Germans brought in the chief of their sniper school to hunt down Zaitsev, but that Zaitsev outwitted him. Zaitsev, after a hunt of several days, apparently spotted his hide under a sheet of corrugated iron, and shot him dead. The telescopic sight off his prey's rifle, allegedly Zaitsev's most treasured trophy, is still exhibited in the Moscow armed forces museum, but this dramatic story remains essentially unconvincing. It is worth noting that there is absolutely no mention of it in any of the reports to Shcherbakov, even though almost every aspect of 'sniperism' was reported with relish".

I have no doubt that the Germans might have hunted Zaitsev, but there was no Major König.

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RE: Has Anyone Seen Flyboys Yet? - 10/1/2006 3:45:39 PM   
Onime No Kyo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Look at page 204 in Beevor. I quote,

"Some Soviet sources claim that the Germans brought in the chief of their sniper school to hunt down Zaitsev, but that Zaitsev outwitted him. Zaitsev, after a hunt of several days, apparently spotted his hide under a sheet of corrugated iron, and shot him dead. The telescopic sight off his prey's rifle, allegedly Zaitsev's most treasured trophy, is still exhibited in the Moscow armed forces museum, but this dramatic story remains essentially unconvincing. It is worth noting that there is absolutely no mention of it in any of the reports to Shcherbakov, even though almost every aspect of 'sniperism' was reported with relish".

I have no doubt that the Germans might have hunted Zaitsev, but there was no Major König.


Like I said...

quote:

There is enough evidence that they sent a guy out specifically to find Zaitsev. What his name was, whether he was the cheif instructor at the German sniper school or not, etc, is up for debate...and probably not just a little colored by Soviet propaganda.



< Message edited by Onime No Kyo -- 10/1/2006 3:46:37 PM >

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RE: Has Anyone Seen Flyboys Yet? - 10/1/2006 3:47:55 PM   
Terminus


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Status: offline 		I'd like to see a German source for this... The Soviets might have had a reason or two for telling such a story, but the Germans...?

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RE: Has Anyone Seen Flyboys Yet? - 10/1/2006 3:55:07 PM   
Onime No Kyo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

I'd like to see a German source for this... The Soviets might have had a reason or two for telling such a story, but the Germans...?


The only German account I've ever read was in translation, written by a fellow named either Welz or Weltz and was called either The Betrayed or Betrayed Soldiers and I honestly dont remember him making mention of it.

Edit...the Russians also had a good story about a female sniper whose name escapes me at the moment.

< Message edited by Onime No Kyo -- 10/1/2006 3:57:13 PM >

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RE: Has Anyone Seen Flyboys Yet? - 10/1/2006 5:10:20 PM   
Speedysteve

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Yup, Blackhawk Down was fantastic...


Agreed. FUBAR springs to mind.......

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