Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
If a paradrop does not have to be capable of landing in a friendly hex in order to paradrop into it, then that presents a loophole where you can paradrop a reinforcement into a hex where you could not otherwise air transport a reinforcement.

quote:

--
Skipping the air-to-air and anti-air combat in the return-to-base hex because a unit was aborted in the pickup hex has some bad consequences.

An air transport can pick up cargo in a target hex, before the air-to-air and anti-air combat in that hex, and its mission is clearly to transport the cargo to some other (ultimate) destination. It will have to undergo a second round of air-to-air and anti-air combat when it arrives at the ultimate destination hex. However, if it is aborted at the target hex (where it picked up its cargo), it then has an un-bothered landing at the ultimate destination. The result is that you hope to be aborted at the pickup hex because you then know that both the ATR and its cargo will land safely in the ultimate destination hex.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
If a paradrop does not have to be capable of landing in a friendly hex in order to paradrop into it, then that presents a loophole where you can paradrop a reinforcement into a hex where you could not otherwise air transport a reinforcement.

Paradrops can't be made into friendly hexes. (Edit : See Q082).
Also, 11.15 says
**************************
PARAs are land units but have the additional ability of flying into an enemy hex without having to move by land through the intervening hexes.
**************************

quote:

--
Skipping the air-to-air and anti-air combat in the return-to-base hex because a unit was aborted in the pickup hex has some bad consequences.

An air transport can pick up cargo in a target hex, before the air-to-air and anti-air combat in that hex, and its mission is clearly to transport the cargo to some other (ultimate) destination. It will have to undergo a second round of air-to-air and anti-air combat when it arrives at the ultimate destination hex. However, if it is aborted at the target hex (where it picked up its cargo), it then has an un-bothered landing at the ultimate destination. The result is that you hope to be aborted at the pickup hex because you then know that both the ATR and its cargo will land safely in the ultimate destination hex.

Not unbothered. The cargo is disrupted. If the ATR is not aborted, the cargo will be undisrupted. Huge difference.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lomyrin

Paradrops as far as I know are only possible into an enemy hex whether with or without an actual enemy unit in the hex. There is no loophole regarding any friendly hex.

Lars

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
This is not that far-fetched a possibility. I could see Germany trying to pick up a good infantry corps from France and fly it to Italy for an emergency defense of, say, an unoccupied Rome. If it is aborted in France, the troops get to land in Rome ignoring ferocious Allied air cover over Rome. If not aborted, Germany flies the unit to, say, Genoa where the Allied have no opposing fighters. Then the unit can walk to Rome in the next impulse. The difference being that aborting in France, puts the unit safely in Rome immediately (disruption is not that big a deal if the unit is in supply and doesn't expect to attack or go anywhere).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

I am back to worrying about air units based on carriers at sea flying air missions against land hexes: port attacks, strategic bombing, carpet bombing, etc.

I can not find anything in the rules that prevents a carrier air unit from flying one of these missions (if the land hex is experiencing fine weather), even if the carrier is in a sea area experiencing Blizzard. Is that correct? The weather in the sea area is totally irrelevant?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

I am back to worrying about air units based on carriers at sea flying air missions against land hexes: port attacks, strategic bombing, carpet bombing, etc.

I can not find anything in the rules that prevents a carrier air unit from flying one of these missions (if the land hex is experiencing fine weather), even if the carrier is in a sea area experiencing Blizzard. Is that correct? The weather in the sea area is totally irrelevant?

Yes, totaly correct.
The weather in the sea area totaly irrelevant.
Only the weather in the target hex counts.

For example :
South China Sea Sea Area --> North Monsoon Weather Zone.
Java --> South Monsoon Weather Zone.

Carrier in the South China Sea can bombard Batavia, on Java, when the weather is Storm in the North Monsoon Weather Zone, provided the weather on the South Monsoon Weather Zone allows air missions (not only Fine, Rain & Snow also allow air missions).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
But what if Carrier Planes are not being used? What is the range of the air units aboard the carrier?

There appear to be several possible solutions:
1 - zero: when not playing with Carrier Planes, then flying air missions to land hexes not adjacent to the sea area the carrier occupies is prohibited.
2 - the range of the carrier (yuck!).
3 - an arbitrary range for all carriers (yuck!).
4 - a range based on the carriers Class # (and who will figure that out?.

Clearly my preference is #1.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Ok, although I have trouble visualizing how they recover the air units when they return to the carriers during a blizzard.

quote:

==
Here is a harder question.

CW carriers in the North Sea can fly strategic bombing missions against Hamburg, because that hex is adjacent to the North Sea - by definition in the map data.

Lille and Brussels are not adjacent to the North Sea. Assuming Lille is owned by Germany, and Germany is using the red factory there [the graphic should have smoke for the factory - but that is besides the point], we have been saying the air units aboard CW carriers in the North Sea could fly strategic bombing missions against Lille. How do we measure the range? If using the optional rule for Carrier Planes, I can take the range of the air unit and find the closest all-sea hex in the North Sea to Lille. There are several 2 hexes away. So, if the range of the carrier based air unit is 2 or more, it can fly the mission.

But what if Carrier Planes are not being used? What is the range of the air units aboard the carrier?

There appear to be several possible solutions:
1 - zero: when not playing with Carrier Planes, then flying air missions to land hexes not adjacent to the sea area the carrier occupies is prohibited.
2 - the range of the carrier (yuck!).
3 - an arbitrary range for all carriers (yuck!).
4 - a range based on the carriers Class # (and who will figure that out?.

Clearly my preference is #1.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Skipping the air-to-air and anti-air combat in the return-to-base hex because a unit was aborted in the pickup hex has some bad consequences.

An air transport can pick up cargo in a target hex, before the air-to-air and anti-air combat in that hex, and its mission is clearly to transport the cargo to some other (ultimate) destination. It will have to undergo a second round of air-to-air and anti-air combat when it arrives at the ultimate destination hex. However, if it is aborted at the target hex (where it picked up its cargo), it then has an un-bothered landing at the ultimate destination. The result is that you hope to be aborted at the pickup hex because you then know that both the ATR and its cargo will land safely in the ultimate destination hex.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Ok, although I have trouble visualizing how they recover the air units when they return to the carriers during a blizzard.

When a vast part of the land adjacent to a stormy sea area is under a non storm weather, we can WiFZen that the weather in that (small) part of the Sea Area is non storm. This part of the Sea Area is not large enough to be representative of the whole Sea Area for things that happens at sea, but for things that happen on the shore, it is representative.

quote:

==
Here is a harder question.

CW carriers in the North Sea can fly strategic bombing missions against Hamburg, because that hex is adjacent to the North Sea - by definition in the map data.

Lille and Brussels are not adjacent to the North Sea. Assuming Lille is owned by Germany, and Germany is using the red factory there [the graphic should have smoke for the factory - but that is besides the point], we have been saying the air units aboard CW carriers in the North Sea could fly strategic bombing missions against Lille. How do we measure the range? If using the optional rule for Carrier Planes, I can take the range of the air unit and find the closest all-sea hex in the North Sea to Lille. There are several 2 hexes away. So, if the range of the carrier based air unit is 2 or more, it can fly the mission.

But what if Carrier Planes are not being used? What is the range of the air units aboard the carrier?

There appear to be several possible solutions:
1 - zero: when not playing with Carrier Planes, then flying air missions to land hexes not adjacent to the sea area the carrier occupies is prohibited.
2 - the range of the carrier (yuck!).
3 - an arbitrary range for all carriers (yuck!).
4 - a range based on the carriers Class # (and who will figure that out?.

Clearly my preference is #1.

No need to guess, this is covered by RAW.

RAW says :
***********************************************
14.4 CV units
(...)
The range of Japanese carrier planes is double their CV’s air component. All other carrier planes’ range, and all carrier planes’ air-to-air rating and air-to-sea factors equal their CV’s air component. All carrier planes’ tactical factors are half the value of their CV’s air component. Their strategic bombardment factors are one quarter of their CV’s air component.
***********************************************
(bold added by me)

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck
Another tactic with ATRs often seen is to offer your opponent the CAP opportunity and let him do it, and then fly with cargo to a target hex way in your interior regions, but just far enough so that the RTB hex is where you really want the cargo. If the opponent has no fighters within intercept range, he is powerless to stop the mission because you cannot CAP against ATR RTBs, per the Air Transport sequence of play.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck
Another tactic with ATRs often seen is to offer your opponent the CAP opportunity and let him do it, and then fly with cargo to a target hex way in your interior regions, but just far enough so that the RTB hex is where you really want the cargo. If the opponent has no fighters within intercept range, he is powerless to stop the mission because you cannot CAP against ATR RTBs, per the Air Transport sequence of play.

Shame on you Paul, this is gamey .
Looks like Harry should add a new step 9 in the sequence of 11.12, so that CAP can be flown.
Or he can also rule that CAP stay in the air until the very end of the air mission, and only rebase after all the other air units have rebased.

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck
Truthfully, I've always wondered why the CAP had to return in Step 9 (I think), but "the rules is the rules" and my job is to exploit them to your detriment.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Paul is right. The weather in the sea zone is irrelevant for a CVP flying an air mission to a land hex.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Norman42
Oh, err. I was sure this had been errata'd at some point, but now that I search for the ruling I cannot find it.

It does seem rather silly that a carrier can launch a full air strike in the middle of a blizzard, fly them 1000 miles to the coastal target, fly back 1000 miles and land safely...when they aren't allowed to send the same planes 2 miles away to engage in naval air warfare.

Are you positive about the above Patrice?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Norman42
The rule I'm referring to is 8.2.3 "Halve the naval, tactical and strategic bombing factors of aircraft (including carrier planes) in a sea area, or attacking a hex, in rain or snow."

The above rule implies weather in the sea area DOES effect a carrier aircraft flying a mission to a land hex, since the tac/str factors are never used at sea, only if they launch to land targets, and by the following logic, are excluded from any mission other then rebase while in blizzard sea zones (also in 8.2.3).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Norman42
So, what is the purpose of the rule phrase "Halve the naval, tactical and strategic bombing factors of aircraft (including carrier planes) in a sea area" if sea area weather is irrelevant?

Sea areas and carrier planes are specifically included when also referring to land based attacks (you never use str factors at sea). By the above rule it seems clear that you halve the factors of the aircraft on carriers at sea during inclement weather, regardless of where/what they attack.

This only makes sense, launching an airstrike in snow is going to be difficult.

I agree about the land based hex flying out of storm and into clear, that is allowed, but this specific rule seems to say the weather at sea is also a factor in mission values.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
I think that all factors are mentionned to keep the sentence short, because anyway it says just after what you quoted that you are affected by the target hex when attacking an hex. Carrier planes doing Ground Strike, Ground Support or Strat or Carpet are affected by the target hex, as other air units. Following your logic, CVP could attack a coastal hex that is under storm if their sea area is under only rain.

If you were right, it would be written plainly, not simply alluded to. It is not alluded to that air missions under storm are impossible, both at sea and at land for example.

Notice also that this is the same for shore bombardment. I think that the WiF Zen is the same.

I do not dispute the fact that air operations in bad weather at sea are not possible, I say that the weather in the fringes of a sea areas whose adjacent land is under another weather is different, allowing air missions.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SewerStarFish

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
I think that all factors are mentionned to keep the sentence short, because anyway it says just after what you quoted that you are affected by the target hex when attacking an hex. Carrier planes doing Ground Strike, Ground Support or Strat or Carpet are affected by the target hex, as other air units. Following your logic, CVP could attack a coastal hex that is under storm if their sea area is under only rain.

If you were right, it would be written plainly, not simply alluded to. It is not alluded to that air missions under storm are impossible, both at sea and at land for example.

Notice also that this is the same for shore bombardment. I think that the WiF Zen is the same.

I do not dispute the fact that air operations in bad weather at sea are not possible, I say that the weather in the fringes of a sea areas whose adjacent land is under another weather is different, allowing air missions.

For what it's worth, we always played as Patrice says. It's noteworthy that regular land based aircraft also are not affected by the weather at their base. They too can take off in a blizzard and fly to a clear weather hex and return to the blinding snow. We simply presumed this to be an abstraction of the "fringes" mentioned above.

As an aside, will aircraft flying an extended range mission be displayed sideways? 14.1.1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Norman42

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Paul is right. The weather in the sea zone is irrelevant for a CVP flying an air mission to a land hex.

Oh, err. I was sure this had been errata'd at some point, but now that I search for the ruling I cannot find it.

It does seem rather silly that a carrier can launch a full air strike in the middle of a blizzard, fly them 1000 miles to the coastal target, fly back 1000 miles and land safely...when they aren't allowed to send the same planes 2 miles away to engage in naval air warfare.

Are you positive about the above Patrice?

The rule I'm referring to is 8.2.3 "Halve the naval, tactical and strategic bombing factors of aircraft (including carrier planes) in a sea area, or attacking a hex, in rain or snow."

The above rule implies weather in the sea area DOES effect a carrier aircraft flying a mission to a land hex, since the tac/str factors are never used at sea, only if they launch to land targets, and by the following logic, are excluded from any mission other then rebase while in blizzard sea zones (also in 8.2.3).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck
Truthfully, I've always wondered why the CAP had to return in Step 9 (I think), but "the rules is the rules" and my job is to exploit them to your detriment.

Mind you, I disagree.
When I see an exploit in the rule, I prefer to have the exploit solved by a rule correction (or a house rule or a gentlemen's agreement), as I hate exploit, and the group I play with is rather in this state of mind. But I like you anyway Paul .

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Here I am again with another picky little question about the rules.

For artillery units that are bombarding an adjacent hex as part of a ground strike, does the weather in the bombarding unit's hex matter? It is clear to me that the mission can not be performed against a hex that is experiencing Storm or Blizzard, but it is unclear to me if the artillery can perform this mission if it, itself, is in a hex experiencing storm or blizzard.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Here I am again with another picky little question about the rules.

For artillery units that are bombarding an adjacent hex as part of a ground strike, does the weather in the bombarding unit's hex matter? It is clear to me that the mission can not be performed against a hex that is experiencing Storm or Blizzard, but it is unclear to me if the artillery can perform this mission if it, itself, is in a hex experiencing storm or blizzard.

You treat the bombarding artillery as you would a AC giving air support to that hex so the hex the ART is in has no effect.

From RAW
"Its factors are affected by terrain and weather exactly like an aircraft’s tactical factors."

Since only the hex affecting AC is the target hex it is the same for ART.

So, yes, it can bombard from a hex in storm or blizzard but not into.

-Orm