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RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land

 
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RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 7/31/2009 6:10:28 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Dubost


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I have begun looking at the US carriers and have started with the famous Essex carriers. Please see attached. As usual I would be greatful for feedback - particularly since I have three books given me three different numbers - 3, 4 and 5-inch -for the belt armour!

[4016 Antietam - by Robert Jenkins]

...
quote:


USS Antietam, named after perhaps the bloodiest of the US Civil War battles
was from the Ticonderoga group and was commissioned in January 1945. She was en-
route to the waters off Japan when the armistice was signed and so was not to
see combat during the Second World War.
.P USS Antietam was scrapped in 1974.



I have been offline for a while due to extremely high workload. I was skimming through the old posts, and this one caught my eye. As a Civil War buff, I would point out that Anteitam was the bloodiest single-day battle in any US war (to date). Other Civil War battles had higher casulties, but spread out over several days.

I hope I don't sound too much like a nitpicker. As a QA type, I think details are in my blood.

Warspite1

Noted - thanks will amend to ....named after the bloodiest single-day battle of the US Civil War.


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Mike Dubost)
Post #: 1231
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 8/1/2009 3:38:49 AM   
Mike Dubost

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


Noted - thanks will amend to ....named after the bloodiest single-day battle of the US Civil War.




That will be great. Thanks!

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1232
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 8/1/2009 8:06:04 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Dubost


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


Noted - thanks will amend to ....named after the bloodiest single-day battle of the US Civil War.




That will be great. Thanks!

Warspite1

Mike if you have any more one liners re the "civil war" ship names that would be good and save me looking them up. Not all ship counters have an explanation for their name, but I have tried to include this for the more unusual names.


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Mike Dubost)
Post #: 1233
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 8/1/2009 9:11:54 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Dubost


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


Noted - thanks will amend to ....named after the bloodiest single-day battle of the US Civil War.




That will be great. Thanks!

Warspite1

Mike if you have any more one liners re the "civil war" ship names that would be good and save me looking them up. Not all ship counters have an explanation for their name, but I have tried to include this for the more unusual names.


Bunker Hill, Boston, Philadelphia, Lexington, Concord, Princeton, Trenton, Saratoga, Ticonderoga (French & Indian wars?), Valley Forge, Yorktown, and Lake Champlain were from the American Revoluntionary War. Possilby Wilkes-Barre too.

Hancock was a signer of the Declaration of Independence.

Vicksburg, Springfield, Savannah, and Mobile ("Damn the Torpedoes", he was referrring to mines) were from the American Civil War.

Belleau Wood was from WW I (I think).

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1234
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 8/1/2009 10:15:14 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Dubost


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


Noted - thanks will amend to ....named after the bloodiest single-day battle of the US Civil War.




That will be great. Thanks!

Warspite1

Mike if you have any more one liners re the "civil war" ship names that would be good and save me looking them up. Not all ship counters have an explanation for their name, but I have tried to include this for the more unusual names.


Bunker Hill, Boston, Philadelphia, Lexington, Concord, Princeton, Trenton, Saratoga, Ticonderoga (French & Indian wars?), Valley Forge, Yorktown, and Lake Champlain were from the American Revoluntionary War. Possilby Wilkes-Barre too.

Hancock was a signer of the Declaration of Independence.

Vicksburg, Springfield, Savannah, and Mobile ("Damn the Torpedoes", he was referrring to mines) were from the American Civil War.

Belleau Wood was from WW I (I think).

Warspite1

Thanks Steve.

Given that some US Civil War names were used, I wonder why Gettysburg was not. Isn`t that the most famous of the Civil War battles?


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 1235
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 8/1/2009 11:55:16 AM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
Mike if you have any more one liners re the "civil war" ship names that would be good and save me looking them up. Not all ship counters have an explanation for their name, but I have tried to include this for the more unusual names.


I hope you did, I love knowing where the names come from !

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1236
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 8/1/2009 11:55:53 AM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
Given that some US Civil War names were used, I wonder why Gettysburg was not. Isn`t that the most famous of the Civil War battles?

Yes, that's a very good question. What is the answer ?

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1237
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 8/1/2009 12:15:06 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
Given that some US Civil War names were used, I wonder why Gettysburg was not. Isn`t that the most famous of the Civil War battles?

Yes, that's a very good question. What is the answer ?

Warspite1

Patrice that was not a quiz question but a genuine question - I have absolutely no idea. Do we have a US Navy buff in the house??


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 1238
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 8/1/2009 12:36:51 PM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
Given that some US Civil War names were used, I wonder why Gettysburg was not. Isn`t that the most famous of the Civil War battles?

Yes, that's a very good question. What is the answer ?

Warspite1

Patrice that was not a quiz question but a genuine question - I have absolutely no idea. Do we have a US Navy buff in the house??


Yes, that's what I'm asking too :-) I understood it was not a quiz, it was not in the right thread for a quiz :-)

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1239
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 8/1/2009 1:10:31 PM   
Extraneous

 

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I'm not a naval buff but...

There have been several ships named USS Gettysburg.

USS Gettysburg (1858)

USS Gettysburg durring WW2

USS Gettysburg (CG-64)

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(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 1240
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 8/1/2009 1:19:10 PM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

I'm not a naval buff but...

There have been several ships named USS Gettysburg.

USS Gettysburg (1858)

USS Gettysburg durring WW2

USS Gettysburg (CG-64)

Humm.... well.... if Gettysburg is really the most famous of the American Civil War Battles, that's a little disapointing. During WW2, a PCE-904 (is this : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PC_Patrol_Craft_of_World_War_II) was launched in 1943, and named Gettysburg in 1956 just before being scapped...

What a tribute...

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 1241
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 8/1/2009 1:21:32 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

I'm not a naval buff but...

There have been several ships named USS Gettysburg.

USS Gettysburg (1858)

USS Gettysburg durring WW2

USS Gettysburg (CG-64)

Humm.... well.... if Gettysburg is really the most famous of the American Civil War Battles, that's a little disapointing. During WW2, a PCE-904 (what is this) was launched in 1943, and named Gettysburg in 1956 just before being scapped...

What a tribute...

Warspite1

Now that is very poor - still doesn`t explain why?


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 1242
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 8/1/2009 1:26:15 PM   
Froonp


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From: Marseilles, France
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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

I'm not a naval buff but...

There have been several ships named USS Gettysburg.

USS Gettysburg (1858)

USS Gettysburg durring WW2

USS Gettysburg (CG-64)

Humm.... well.... if Gettysburg is really the most famous of the American Civil War Battles, that's a little disapointing. During WW2, a PCE-904 (what is this) was launched in 1943, and named Gettysburg in 1956 just before being scapped...

What a tribute...

Warspite1

Now that is very poor - still doesn`t explain why?


How is the American Civil War Battle of Gettysburg perceived in the USA, compared to other battles / places, that got their name given to a major warship such as the Saratoga / Yorktown / Ticonderoga / Antietam / Hancok and the such ?

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1243
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 8/1/2009 1:31:46 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

I'm not a naval buff but...

There have been several ships named USS Gettysburg.

USS Gettysburg (1858)

USS Gettysburg durring WW2

USS Gettysburg (CG-64)

Humm.... well.... if Gettysburg is really the most famous of the American Civil War Battles, that's a little disapointing. During WW2, a PCE-904 (what is this) was launched in 1943, and named Gettysburg in 1956 just before being scapped...

What a tribute...

Warspite1

Now that is very poor - still doesn`t explain why?


How is the American Civil War Battle of Gettysburg perceived in the USA, compared to other battles / places, that got their name given to a major warship such as the Saratoga / Yorktown / Ticonderoga / Antietam / Hancok and the such ?

Warspite1

Patrice, Yorktown was the battle that (effectively?) ended the War of Independence - not the US Civil War. Saratoga and Ticonderoga came from that war too. However, as you say, why are others that were from the US Civil war remembered, such as Antietam, and not Gettysburg?


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 1244
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 8/1/2009 2:38:32 PM   
warspite1


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Please see attached ASW counter for the Germans.

[4811 ASW Escort - by Robert Jenkins]
.P These counters do not represent an individual convoy or any specific ships,
but are designed to represent convoy escort groups. They have mixed values
reflecting the fact that the make-up of an escort group could differ from one
convoy to the next. The date on the back of these ASW and ASW Carrier counters
should be ignored for the purposes of these write-ups.
.P The convoy escort role was important to the German Navy as much equipment,
troops and supplies were moved by sea; for example to Norway and Finland, and via
coastal routes, along the French coast, through the English Channel etc.
.P However, the type of escorts required and the make up of the escort groups
were clearly quite different from those required by the British and United States
in particular, and the need for specialist anti-submarine warfare escorts was
much less. Instead, the typical coastal escort would consist of torpedo boats,
minesweepers and other smaller craft to augment the few destroyers available to
the Kriegsmarine. Therefore the German ASW Escort counters may be considered
"what if" counters.
.B
.B Name: Wilhelm Heidkamp
.B Engine(s) output: 70,000 hp
.B Top Speed: 40 knots
.B Main armament: 5 x 5-inch (127mm), 4 x 37mm guns
.B Displacement (full load): 3,415 tons
.B Thickest armour: Not Applicable
.P The first destroyer type built for the Kriegsmarine after World War I was
the 1934 type, and all subsequent destroyer classes were variations on their basic
design.
.P The six destroyers of the 1936 type were built for the Kriegsmarine between
1936 and 1939. They were fast and powerfully armed vessels featuring a 5-inch
main armament and a sensible anti-aircraft (AA) battery of 37mm and 20mm guns.
They were better handling than the original 1934 type, as a result of a reduction
in top weight. They were also less fragile; both structurally and mechanically.
.P This ASW write-up looks at the invasion of Norway, and specifically the
destroyers of Marine Gruppe 1 that carried troops to the northern most invasion
target; Narvik. Speed was essential for this element of the operation and
therefore ex-civilian transport vessels could not be used; the transports were
the escorts.
.P On the 7th April 1940 almost the entire Kriegsmarine were deployed for
Operation Weserubung; the attack on Norway. For this audacious operation, the
Germans employed six main groups (Marine Gruppe) each with a specific destination
on the Norwegian coast.
.P Marine Gruppe 1 was made up of ten destroyers commanded by Kommodore Bonte in
his Flagship Wilhelm Heidkamp. The ships involved were: Wilhelm Heidkamp, Diether
Von Roeder, Erich Giese, Bernd Von Arnim, Georg Thiele, Wolfgang Zenker, Erich
Koellner, Hermann Kunne, Hans Ludemann and Anton Schmidt. They were tasked with
taking 2,000 mountain troops of the 139th Gebirgsjager Regiment to Narvik. Marine
Gruppe 1 were covered by the battlecruisers Scharnhorst and Gneisenau for much of
the journey. They left Germany late on the 6th April and survived an attack by
aircraft from the Royal Air Force after being spotted the following day. After
this, the ships were able to enjoy the cover provided by the poor weather and so
were able to reach Ofotfjord in the early morning of the 9th. Only in the final
stages of the journey north were they detected again, this time by the Norwegian
Navy.
.P Each destroyer had a job to do and each was able to accomplish its allotted
task under cover of poor visibility. While one destroyer, guarded the entrance
to the fjord, three ships were sent into Herjangsfjord, north of Narvik in order
to land the 1st Battalion at Bjerkvik. Two companies were landed to silence
Norwegian batteries guarding Narvik, however these were actually empty of guns
due to financial constraints between the wars. The remaining ships continued on
toward Narvik.
.P The Norwegian coastal defence ships Eidsvold and Norge had been alerted to the
German presence previously and Eidsvold, further down the fjord, prepared to
engage. Instead, the Germans sent an officer from Heidkamp to meet with his
opposite number on Eidsvold in an effort to get the Norwegians to surrender. At
the end of the protracted meeting, the Norwegians confirmed that they would fight
rather than surrender. The Germans had used the time well, ensuring that their
torpedoes were trained on the elderly Norwegian ship.
.P As soon as it was clear that a battle would be fought, the Eidsvold prepared
to fire at Heidkamp; she never got the chance. just after 0430hrs, three
torpedoes slammed into her, igniting her magazine, and the blast cut the ship in
two, causing her to sink immediately with heavy loss of life.
.P Those on board Norge heard the blast and prepared to fire as soon as they
could see a target out of the mist. The captain of the Norge was suddenly
confronted with the site of a German destroyer; the Von Arnim, ahead of him.
Eight minutes after the Eidsvold succumbed, Norge and Von Arnim briefly duelled
at point blank range before the German destroyer launched a spread of torpedoes
that caused the Norge too to sink very quickly.
.P The remaining two battalions of mountain troops and their headquarters staff
were unloaded and quickly secured Narvik. However, the victory came with problems
for Bonte and his destroyers. The plan called for them to be refuelled by two
tankers; one that had sailed from the Soviet Union and the other, from Germany.
The first was able to rendezvous in Ofotfjord and partly refuel the destroyer
force. However, the second vessel had been scuttled by its crew after being
intercepted by a Norwegian auxiliary. The repercussions of this encounter
for the Kriegsmarine were to be considerable.
.P Units of the Royal Navy had been at sea at the time of the German invasion as
the British were planning operations of their own in Norway. One such plan was for a
minelaying operation off the Norwegian coast in order to disrupt German Iron Ore
convoys coming from Narvik. For this, the 2nd Destroyer Flotilla provided the
escort for the minelaying destroyers. They were therefore in the area when news
of the German landing at Narvik came through. The initial report suggested that
one enemy ship was present in the fjord. The five British destroyers, Hotspur,
Hunter, Hostile, Havock and Hardy, commanded by Captain Warburton-Lee in Hardy,
were ordered to head for Narvik.
.P The Royal Navy ships were out-numbered and out-gunned but regardless,
Warburton-Lee sailed up Ofotfjord at first light on the morning of the 10th. The
British ships were able to surprise their German counterparts and quickly sank
Heidkamp and Schmidt. Bonte was killed aboard his Flagship. They also badly
damaged Von Roeder and lightly damaged two others. In addition, six cargo vessels
were destroyed.
.P Warburton-Lee then set about returning to sea but were pursued by the
remaining German ships, including the three that had been posted to Herjangsfjord
the previous day. In addition, two destroyers were in Ballangenfjord, and these
were able to surprise the British while bringing all guns to bear. Hardy was so
badly damaged in the encounter that she had to be beached. Warburton-Lee was one
of those killed. Hunter was also sunk. She was rendered disabled and motionless
in the water and was then struck by the badly damaged Hotspur. Hotspur was able
to get away along with the remaining two ships.
.P To compound the earlier German misery, Thiele was damaged in the latter stages
of the battle together with the supply ship Rauenfels, which was full of
ammunition and blew up when hit. The next day Koellner was damaged when she ran
aground in the fjord.
.P Bonte won the Knight`s Cross for his part in the action and Warburton-Lee won
the Victoria Cross; both posthumously.
.P Three days later the Royal Navy returned to finish the job. This time, the
Royal Navy had the superior numbers and the superior fire power as the battleship
Warspite had arrived to support a force of nine destroyers. The destroyer force
consisted of four Tribal-class: Bedouin, Cossack, Punjabi and Eskimo and five
others: Kimberley, Hero, Icarus, Forester and Foxhound. It was to be a one-sided
contest as the German ships were short of both fuel and now, ammunition too. The
Germans had the advantage of a submarine in the fjord, but she was quickly
destroyed by an aircraft from Warspite.
.P The first destroyer to be attacked was the Koellner, which had also been
spotted by Warspite`s aircraft and sank due to gunfire and torpedoes. The German
ships, now under the command of Kapitan Bey fought bravely considering their
hopeless position, but failed to make a significant impression on the British.
.P Eventually they had no choice but to retreat further back within the fjord.
Kunne`s captain chose to beach and then scuttle her when he had run out of
ammunition. Eskimo pursued Kunne and was attacked by two destroyers, losing her
bow in the process. The final destroyers to be sunk were Roeder and Giese. The
remaining ships were scuttled.
.P In the two battles the Germans had lost a large part of their destroyer force
and well over 1,000 sailors. This was in addition to the six freighters, an
ammunition ship and a submarine. The surviving sailors formed an adhoc fighting
unit that fought alongside the mountain troops of the 139th Regiment. Although
ultimately a British, French and Polish force managed to wrest control of Narvik,
it was a phyrric victory. The decision to evacuate Norway had already been made.

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1245
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 8/1/2009 3:27:11 PM   
sajbalk


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Most of the battle names are for Revolutionary War battles:
CV Saratoga, Yorktown, Lexington, etc.
CV Wasp and Hornet are for stinging insects.
Later CV in WiFFE are for people, WWI battles, WWII battles, Spanish-American War battles.

Antietam is the only Civil War battle I see.

BB are states.
Battlecruisers are territories, i.e. Guam, Alaska
CA are cities.
SUB are fish species.

Why not more Civil War battles? The US would not want to commerate Union losses, and the Southerners would not want to remember Union victories.



_____________________________

Steve Balk
Iowa, USA

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1246
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 8/1/2009 3:42:29 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sajbalk

Most of the battle names are for Revolutionary War battles:
CV Saratoga, Yorktown, Lexington, etc.
CV Wasp and Hornet are for stinging insects.
Later CV in WiFFE are for people, WWI battles, WWII battles, Spanish-American War battles.

Antietam is the only Civil War battle I see.

BB are states.
Battlecruisers are territories, i.e. Guam, Alaska
CA are cities.
SUB are fish species.

Why not more Civil War battles? The US would not want to commerate Union losses, and the Southerners would not want to remember Union victories.


Warspite1

I can understand that sentiment entirely - its just that that makes Antietam an oddity. Those other ships with Civil War names must be named after the places not the battle i.e. the cruisers for example.

So perhaps the correct question is; why Antietam? rather than why not Gettysburg?


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to sajbalk)
Post #: 1247
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 8/1/2009 4:32:31 PM   
sajbalk


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From: Davenport, Iowa
Status: offline

[/quote] Warspite1

I can understand that sentiment entirely - its just that that makes Antietam an oddity. Those other ships with Civil War names must be named after the places not the battle i.e. the cruisers for example.

So perhaps the correct question is; why Antietam? rather than why not Gettysburg?

[/quote]

I think the other CA's are names for the cities, i.e. Vicksburg. Antietam was the bloodies one-day battle and it was tactically inconclusive, a tie if you will. Perhaps the descendants of both sides were happy to remember this one.




_____________________________

Steve Balk
Iowa, USA

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1248
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 8/1/2009 6:26:18 PM   
Extraneous

 

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How U.S. Navy ships were named in WW2.

_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to sajbalk)
Post #: 1249
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 8/2/2009 5:18:26 PM   
Froonp


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From: Marseilles, France
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sajbalk
Antietam was the bloodies one-day battle and it was tactically inconclusive, a tie if you will. Perhaps the descendants of both sides were happy to remember this one.

I think that you're right that this is the reason. People of the USA have been torn between the North and the South, and maybe it is not satisfactory to a half of the USA population to celebrate a battle won by one side.

(in reply to sajbalk)
Post #: 1250
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 8/2/2009 6:40:10 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: sajbalk
Antietam was the bloodies one-day battle and it was tactically inconclusive, a tie if you will. Perhaps the descendants of both sides were happy to remember this one.

I think that you're right that this is the reason. People of the USA have been torn between the North and the South, and maybe it is not satisfactory to a half of the USA population to celebrate a battle won by one side.


Not quite.

Vicksburg was an all-out Northern victory and crucial to the control of the Mississippi River. It divided the Southern states that were west of the Mississippi from those that were east - a major part of the North's divide and conquer strategy.

I suspect the names were decided by a group of guys sitting around a table and/or a flurry of memos/ideas being passed back and forth. In other words, some committee chose the names, using all the fine logic normally attributed to decisions by committee.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 1251
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 8/2/2009 6:48:11 PM   
paulderynck


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It is hard to know if the CL Vicksburg was named after the city or the battle though? Especially considering it was more of a siege than a battle.

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Paul

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 1252
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 8/2/2009 6:55:39 PM   
warspite1


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Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

It is hard to know if the CL Vicksburg was named after the city or the battle though? Especially considering it was more of a siege than a battle.

Warspite1

As a cruiser I assume it would be named after the city and not the battle in line with naming convention. The revised question - to the extent that anyone is still interested - is why was Antietam acceptable as a name and none of the other civil war battles?


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 1253
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 8/2/2009 9:27:09 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
HELP REQUIRED PLEASE

I am trying to write-up the events of the 3rd July 1940 from the French perspective. Whilst I have a good order of battle for ships at:

All ports in the UK
Oran
Mers-el-Kebir
Algiers
Dakar

What I am missing is the names of the French ships at:

Alexandria
Casablanca
Toulon
Any other - e.g. Indo-China and the West Indies

Any help would be appreciated - thank-you.

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1254
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 8/2/2009 9:28:08 PM   
Sewerlobster


Posts: 330
Joined: 5/7/2007
From: Reading, Pa. USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck
It is hard to know if the CL Vicksburg was named after the city or the battle though? Especially considering it was more of a siege than a battle.
Warspite1
As a cruiser I assume it would be named after the city and not the battle in line with naming convention. The revised question - to the extent that anyone is still interested - is why was Antietam acceptable as a name and none of the other civil war battles?


This, I think,is the issue with the Gettysburg. Whereas the Antietam was named after a battle, Gettysburg is an actual incorporated town. I suspect that the naming of US vessels had a "strict" application to actual place names at that time. Vicksburg as a city could clearly command a CL, but Gettysburg as a somewhat small town was probably not premitted any other class of ship to be named after.

During WWII other nearby and much larger places had: USS Reading PF-66 (Frigate), USS Lancaster AK-193 (Cargo), USS Lebanon AK-191, York and Harrisburg had no WWII ships.

_____________________________

Why choose the lesser evil: Vote Cthulhu.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1255
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 8/2/2009 11:24:50 PM   
Mike Dubost

 

Posts: 273
Joined: 8/24/2008
From: Sacramento, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SewerStarFish

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck
It is hard to know if the CL Vicksburg was named after the city or the battle though? Especially considering it was more of a siege than a battle.
Warspite1
As a cruiser I assume it would be named after the city and not the battle in line with naming convention. The revised question - to the extent that anyone is still interested - is why was Antietam acceptable as a name and none of the other civil war battles?


This, I think,is the issue with the Gettysburg. Whereas the Antietam was named after a battle, Gettysburg is an actual incorporated town. I suspect that the naming of US vessels had a "strict" application to actual place names at that time. Vicksburg as a city could clearly command a CL, but Gettysburg as a somewhat small town was probably not premitted any other class of ship to be named after.

During WWII other nearby and much larger places had: USS Reading PF-66 (Frigate), USS Lancaster AK-193 (Cargo), USS Lebanon AK-191, York and Harrisburg had no WWII ships.


It may be partially due to the fact that Antietam was enough of a victory for Lincoln to issue the Preliminary Emancipation Proclamation? More likely, Steve is right, and it is a result of the "logic" of committees.

(in reply to Sewerlobster)
Post #: 1256
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 8/2/2009 11:31:39 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

HELP REQUIRED PLEASE

I am trying to write-up the events of the 3rd July 1940 from the French perspective. Whilst I have a good order of battle for ships at:

All ports in the UK
Oran
Mers-el-Kebir
Algiers
Dakar

What I am missing is the names of the French ships at:

Alexandria
Casablanca
Toulon
Any other - e.g. Indo-China and the West Indies

Any help would be appreciated - thank-you.

Warspite1

For some reason the French Navy is proving difficult to get decent material on. I will therefore be posting quite a few of this
country`s write-ups for feed-back/comment as I cannot be entirely certain as to the quality of the research material in some cases. Please see below a what if counter:

[4904 Maroc - by Robert Jenkins]
.B Engine(s) output: 84,000 hp
.B Top Speed: 31 knots
.B Main armament: 8 x 8-inch (203mm), 12 x 3.9-inch (100mm) guns
.B Displacement (full load): 13,900 tons
.B Thickest armour: 4.75-inch (belt)
.P This is a World In Flames "What if" counter. The French approved the
construction of three cruisers in April 1940. These cruisers were to have
replaced the three ships of the Duguay Trouin-class and were to be an improved
version of the successful, single ship Algerie-class.
.P The class were possibly to have had three triple 8-inch turrets, rather than
the four twin turrets of Algerie, and a full load displacement of over 14,000
tons. However, the exact details are not known and therefore the key technical
details provided above are the same as those for Algerie.
.P Provided the French remain in the game long enough, World In Flames gives the
French player the opportunity to build three additional cruisers with the same or
slightly better combat factors than Algerie.
.P A possible name mentioned for this class of three ships was St. Louis, but
World In Flames have kept, in line with Algerie, the colony theme for the three
ships. These are Maroc, Indo-Chine and Tunis.



< Message edited by warspite1 -- 8/2/2009 11:35:04 PM >


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1257
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 8/3/2009 12:21:03 AM   
Mike Dubost

 

Posts: 273
Joined: 8/24/2008
From: Sacramento, CA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Dubost


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


Noted - thanks will amend to ....named after the bloodiest single-day battle of the US Civil War.




That will be great. Thanks!

Warspite1

Mike if you have any more one liners re the "civil war" ship names that would be good and save me looking them up. Not all ship counters have an explanation for their name, but I have tried to include this for the more unusual names.


Bunker Hill, Boston, Philadelphia, Lexington, Concord, Princeton, Trenton, Saratoga, Ticonderoga (French & Indian wars?), Valley Forge, Yorktown, and Lake Champlain were from the American Revoluntionary War. Possilby Wilkes-Barre too.

Hancock was a signer of the Declaration of Independence.

Vicksburg, Springfield, Savannah, and Mobile ("Damn the Torpedoes", he was referrring to mines) were from the American Civil War.

Belleau Wood was from WW I (I think).


Be careful what you ask for.

Savannah may have been named for the city, or for the Revolutionary War battle, since there was limited fighting when Sherman reached it during his March to the Sea. If you want to add a brief reference to the Civil War era, I would say "General William T. Sherman cut loose from his base of supplies and lived off the countryside during his famous March to the Sea in 1864. Leaving Atlanta, his forces marched on a 60-mile wide front through the state of Georgia, finally reaching the Atlantic Ocean at the city of Savannah. In a famous message to President Lincoln, Sherman presented the city to him as a Christmas present.". As far as the Revolution, in The War of the Revolution, on Pages 680 to 681, Christopher Ward describes a battle in which the British 71st Regiment, two Hessian regiments, 4 Tory battalians, and some artillery attacked 700 Continentals and 150 militia. The Patriots dug in along a causway 1/2 mile east of town. They thought the British would launch a frontal assault, but they British were told by a local about a way through the swamps on the Patriot right flank. As a result, they flanked the Patriots and routed them, capturing Savannah.

Wilkes-Bare was likely named for the city. Although the settlment was burned by Tories and Indians in 1778, the fighting occured nearby outside Wintermoot. I am not sure if there was fighting in Wilkes-Bare during the French and Indian War, but I did read a few years ago that the chain of stockades that included Wilkes-Bare was set up by a group of prominent Pennsylvanians, including Benjamin Franklin, who I believe was in field command of some of the forces.

Ticonderoga was one of those places that saw figting in many wars, due to its position on a choke point in a natural line of advance / supply. Prior to the development of the American railway network in the mid-19th Century, the easiest routes of travel and most secure supply routes were by water. The fort now known as Ticonderoga was built by the French to defend a narrow point in Lake Champlain which was a major link in the water route between Canada and New York City. As such, this route served as a focal point of attack and counterattack in the French and Indian Wars, the Revolutionary War, and the War of 1812. Fort Carillon was attacked twice during the French and Indian Wars by British forces. The failed attack was led by Abercromby, in 1758. The successful attack was led by Sir Jeffrey Amherst. If you take the Fort Ti ferry (at least as of 2001 when I went), there is a marker on the boat indicating that the ferry crossing was first set up by Amherst. Later renamed Fort Ticonderoga by the British, it was allowed to fall into decay after the defeat of the French. In 1775, the fort was lightly held and on May 10, Ethan Allen with his Green Mountain Boys and Benedict Arnold with a commission from the Massachusetts Committe of Safety (and one manservant), took the fort by surprise. Allen later claimed to have demanded the fort's surrender "In the name of the Great Jehovah and the Continental Congress", but others claimed that he said "Come out of there, you damned old rat". The guns from the fort were removed by Henry Knox in January 1776, and in one of the remarkable feats of endurance and of engineering skill of the Revolutionary War, were transported by sledges and gondolas to the main patriot forces near Boston where George Washington used them to force the British to evacuate the city.

The city of Vicksburg, Mississippi was a major objective of US Grant's Union army in the spring of 1863. Between the fortificaitons at Vicksburg and a small set at Port Hudson, the Confederate States of America controlled the Mississippi River. Before the Civil War, the river had been the cheapest and best way for farm produce from the Midwestern States to reach the ocean and the markets of the world. With the river in Confederate hands, this path was closed, and the CSA was also able to draw on the manpower and produce of the Trans-Mississippi states that had seceeded from the USA. After multiple failed efforts (an overland attack from the north, a failed attempt to cut a canal so that the Mississippi River would bypass the city, and an effort to go through the bayous nearby), Grant finally determined to cut loose from his base of supply. On April 30, General Grant's forces had crossed from the west side to the east side of the river. Over the next 3 weeks, Grant's forces marched to the state capitol at Jackson, destroyed the rail lines and manufacturing plants in Jackson, and then drove the forces of Confederate general Pemberton back into the city of Vicksburg itself. After a "coup-de-main" failed to take the city, Grant settled in for a siege. On July 4, Pemberton surrendered. When the news reached the CSA forces besieged by General Banks in Port Hudson, they too surrendered. The two surrenders resulted in Union control of the river, and in Grant's promotion to command all Union forces between the Appalachians and the Mississippi.

I can do more later, on the WWI battle of Bellau Wood, on Mobile Bay, etc. I figure this will serve as a sample of my work.

Edited for typos

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 1258
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 8/3/2009 6:19:14 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Dubost

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Dubost


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


Noted - thanks will amend to ....named after the bloodiest single-day battle of the US Civil War.




That will be great. Thanks!

Warspite1

Mike if you have any more one liners re the "civil war" ship names that would be good and save me looking them up. Not all ship counters have an explanation for their name, but I have tried to include this for the more unusual names.


Bunker Hill, Boston, Philadelphia, Lexington, Concord, Princeton, Trenton, Saratoga, Ticonderoga (French & Indian wars?), Valley Forge, Yorktown, and Lake Champlain were from the American Revoluntionary War. Possilby Wilkes-Barre too.

Hancock was a signer of the Declaration of Independence.

Vicksburg, Springfield, Savannah, and Mobile ("Damn the Torpedoes", he was referrring to mines) were from the American Civil War.

Belleau Wood was from WW I (I think).


Be careful what you ask for.

Savannah may have been named for the city, or for the Revolutionary War battle, since there was limited fighting when Sherman reached it during his March to the Sea. If you want to add a brief reference to the Civil War era, I would say "General William T. Sherman cut loose from his base of supplies and lived off the countryside during his famous March to the Sea in 1864. Leaving Atlanta, his forces marched on a 60-mile wide front through the state of Georgia, finally reaching the Atlantic Ocean at the city of Savannah. In a famous message to President Lincoln, Sherman presented the city to him as a Christmas present.". As far as the Revolution, in The War of the Revolution, on Pages 680 to 681, Christopher Ward describes a battle in which the British 71st Regiment, two Hessian regiments, 4 Tory battalians, and some artillery attacked 700 Continentals and 150 militia. The Patriots dug in along a causway 1/2 mile east of town. They thought the British would launch a frontal assault, but they British were told by a local about a way through the swamps on the Patriot right flank. As a result, they flanked the Patriots and routed them, capturing Savannah.

Wilkes-Bare was likely named for the city. Although the settlment was burned by Tories and Indians in 1778, the fighting occured nearby outside Wintermoot. I am not sure if there was fighting in Wilkes-Bare during the French and Indian War, but I did read a few years ago that the chain of stockades that included Wilkes-Bare was set up by a group of prominent Pennsylvanians, including Benjamin Franklin, who I believe was in field command of some of the forces.

Ticonderoga was one of those places that saw figting in many wars, due to its position on a choke point in a natural line of advance / supply. Prior to the development of the American railway network in the mid-19th Century, the easiest routes of travel and most secure supply routes were by water. The fort now known as Ticonderoga was built by the French to defend a narrow point in Lake Champlain which was a major link in the water route between Canada and New York City. As such, this route served as a focal point of attack and counterattack in the French and Indian Wars, the Revolutionary War, and the War of 1812. Fort Carillon was attacked twice during the French and Indian Wars by British forces. The failed attack was led by Abercromby, in 1758. The successful attack was led by Sir Jeffrey Amherst. If you take the Fort Ti ferry (at least as of 2001 when I went), there is a marker on the boat indicating that the ferry crossing was first set up by Amherst. Later renamed Fort Ticonderoga by the British, it was allowed to fall into decay after the defeat of the French. In 1775, the fort was lightly held and on May 10, Ethan Allen with his Green Mountain Boys and Benedict Arnold with a commission from the Massachusetts Committe of Safety (and one manservant), took the fort by surprise. Allen later claimed to have demanded the fort's surrender "In the name of the Great Jehovah and the Continental Congress", but others claimed that he said "Come out of there, you damned old rat". The guns from the fort were removed by Henry Knox in January 1776, and in one of the remarkable feats of endurance and of engineering skill of the Revolutionary War, were transported by sledges and gondolas to the main patriot forces near Boston where George Washington used them to force the British to evacuate the city.

The city of Vicksburg, Mississippi was a major objective of US Grant's Union army in the spring of 1863. Between the fortificaitons at Vicksburg and a small set at Port Hudson, the Confederate States of America controlled the Mississippi River. Before the Civil War, the river had been the cheapest and best way for farm produce from the Midwestern States to reach the ocean and the markets of the world. With the river in Confederate hands, this path was closed, and the CSA was also able to draw on the manpower and produce of the Trans-Mississippi states that had seceeded from the USA. After multiple failed efforts (an overland attack from the north, a failed attempt to cut a canal so that the Mississippi River would bypass the city, and an effort to go through the bayous nearby), Grant finally determined to cut loose from his base of supply. On April 30, General Grant's forces had crossed from the west side to the east side of the river. Over the next 3 weeks, Grant's forces marched to the state capitol at Jackson, destroyed the rail lines and manufacturing plants in Jackson, and then drove the forces of Confederate general Pemberton back into the city of Vicksburg itself. After a "coup-de-main" failed to take the city, Grant settled in for a siege. On July 4, Pemberton surrendered. When the news reached the CSA forces besieged by General Banks in Port Hudson, they too surrendered. The two surrenders resulted in Union control of the river, and in Grant's promotion to command all Union forces between the Appalachians and the Mississippi.

I can do more later, on the WWI battle of Bellau Wood, on Mobile Bay, etc. I figure this will serve as a sample of my work.

Edited for typos

Warspite1

Mike - thank you, although as I said originally, I was looking for "one liners" I could insert to the write-up .


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Mike Dubost)
Post #: 1259
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 8/3/2009 6:52:25 AM   
Mike Dubost

 

Posts: 273
Joined: 8/24/2008
From: Sacramento, CA
Status: offline
OK, sorry about that. I did not read your request carefully enough. This is a danger of letting an enthusiast near his hobby horse. Let's try again:

As a result of his decisive victory in the Vicksburg campaign, General Grant was appointed to command all Union forces between the Appalachians and the Mississippi river.

Fort Ticonderoga was a fort placed at a narrow point in Lake Champlain to block one of the major water routes between Canada and New York City, and saw multiple battles from the French and Indian War to the War of 1812.

Wilkes-Barre is a city in Pennsylvania that began as a stockade placed by a small militia unit led by Benjamin Franklin.

Bellau Wood is named after a battle in World War I in which the newly-committed American Expedition Force helped stop and drive back one of the Kaiser's last offensives on the Western Front.

The Battle of Mobile Bay is best known for Admiral Faragut's famous signal "Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead".

Is this a bit better? I do try to please.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1260
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