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RE: Purpose of Corps

 
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RE: Purpose of Corps - 12/5/2006 8:16:02 PM   
Jim D Burns


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Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Salida, CA.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Paper Tiger
Still at the same number of maximum brigades per army or there abouts. How does it benefit you to re-organise units into a hierarchy? 


I think (not positive though) by having a corp, a unit can effectively roll four times for rally assuming it has all four levels of command present.

Once for a single star brigade commander attached directly to the unit, once for its two star division commander, once for its three star corp commander and finally once for its four star army commander.

So having the proper organization for an army has a great effect on the staying power of units in a battle since they are much more likely to rally after being broke.

Of course if this isn't how it works than I have no idea if the extra level of leadership works except that it possibly gives an extra supply wagon in battle due to the corps command staff.

Also it might be possible that a corps command staff ratings override those of a lower level HQ (thus stuffing lousy divisions into said corp enhances their abilities), but the manual doesn’t explain these kinds of leadership issues very well.

Jim


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Post #: 31
RE: Purpose of Corps - 12/5/2006 8:26:01 PM   
elmo3

 

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Joined: 1/22/2002
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Paper Tiger

cept there is a maximum number of brigades to an army as well and it works out roughly the same as having the corps maxed out on divisions only.


I wasn't aware of that and don't see it in 2.2.5 Group Limits. What is that number and where is it in the manual?

Edit - OK I see the limits now, 42 for a CSA Army and 35 for a USA Army?! As pointed out above with the real armies I detailed, those limits are too low and should be reconsidered IMO.


quote:


Also you could use could use corps and or divisions but with a corps being able to hold near as much as an army what is the point of having 3 wings of AoP all of Army size? When a corps can hold 18 brigades? at 3k =54k that is as big as most armies.
So say you have a couple of corps out there acting as minnie armies and max your armies out on divisions alone. Still at the same number of maximum brigades per army or there abouts. How does it benefit you to re-organise units into a hierarchy? 



I'm not arguing one grand army is better than two corps and a small army.

You said:
quote:


... But I could be wrong never yet built many corps, as I can't see the need at the moment.


That and what sounded like your misunderstanding of how many brigades you could have in an army of divisions vs and army of corps led me to reply. I was just pointing out some reasons for having corps both within an army and outside of an army. A lot depends on the situation in the game at the time as to how best to organize your forces.


< Message edited by elmo3 -- 12/5/2006 8:44:29 PM >

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Post #: 32
RE: Purpose of Corps - 12/5/2006 11:00:56 PM   
elmo3

 

Posts: 5820
Joined: 1/22/2002
Status: offline 		FWIW I added a request to the wish list to raise the number of brigades either side can have in an Army to better reflect history and/or make the number moddable by players.

I also made a note in the manual errata thread that the number of brigades each side can have per division on page 36 is contradicted on page 56.

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Post #: 33
RE: Purpose of Corps - 12/5/2006 11:22:08 PM   
Kung Karl

 

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Joined: 7/1/2003
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Paper Tiger
How does it benefit you to re-organise units into a hierarchy?



Well, I do not know how it works in the game but I think that if it doesn't realy add anything to have corps it should penalise you hardley not to have them.

I mean a single general like LEE can't be the direct commander of all brigades in ANV! That would not be possible IRL. You need to have an organisation to be able to handle large size armies. The game must reflect that in some way. If it doesn't and you don't need to use corps etc then the game mechanics are WAY off!

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Post #: 34
RE: Purpose of Corps - 12/6/2006 12:47:57 AM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline 		It is easy enough to change the allowable brigades, the problem I see is there is no REAL limit on Divisions in Corps or Corps in Armies. Why the game claims there is is beyond me.

I changed the numbers allowed to reflect what the game claims is the limits. The problem being since it doesnt really care how many Divisions or Corps you have you can end up beating the listed limits in the manual.

Someone check my math....

A union Army is supposed to be able to have 8 "units" with a maximum of 4 Corps. A Corps in the Union is allowed to also have 8 units with a maximum of 3 Divisions. A division is supposed to have a maximum in the Union army of 5 ( not 4) brigades. Since Brigades determine size a Corps maximum brigade count in the Union would be 3 division at 5 brigades equals 15 brigades plus 5 more brigades for a total of 20 brigades in a Corp.

An Army is allowed 4 Corps and 4 Divisions max that would be 4 at 20 for 80 and 4 at 5 for 20 more equals 100 brigades. You can easily change this to be fact in game. Of course then your not compatible for PBEM with anyone on normal game. And you can in fact have as many sub containers as you want so long as brigade count isnt exceeded.

I would appreciate to know if it is possible to limit containers to the max number of containers or if I just have to make the brigade changes as listed....

This is NO game breaker. But the rules should be changed to read what the game engine ACTUALLY allows. Aesthitics and uniformity of rules.

(in reply to Kung Karl)
Post #: 35
RE: Purpose of Corps - 12/6/2006 12:59:28 AM   
chris0827

 

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Joined: 11/17/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

It is easy enough to change the allowable brigades, the problem I see is there is no REAL limit on Divisions in Corps or Corps in Armies. Why the game claims there is is beyond me.

I changed the numbers allowed to reflect what the game claims is the limits. The problem being since it doesnt really care how many Divisions or Corps you have you can end up beating the listed limits in the manual.

Someone check my math....

A union Army is supposed to be able to have 8 "units" with a maximum of 4 Corps. A Corps in the Union is allowed to also have 8 units with a maximum of 3 Divisions. A division is supposed to have a maximum in the Union army of 5 ( not 4) brigades. Since Brigades determine size a Corps maximum brigade count in the Union would be 3 division at 5 brigades equals 15 brigades plus 5 more brigades for a total of 20 brigades in a Corp.

An Army is allowed 4 Corps and 4 Divisions max that would be 4 at 20 for 80 and 4 at 5 for 20 more equals 100 brigades. You can easily change this to be fact in game. Of course then your not compatible for PBEM with anyone on normal game. And you can in fact have as many sub containers as you want so long as brigade count isnt exceeded.

I would appreciate to know if it is possible to limit containers to the max number of containers or if I just have to make the brigade changes as listed....

This is NO game breaker. But the rules should be changed to read what the game engine ACTUALLY allows. Aesthitics and uniformity of rules.


The AcwPlayers file shows the limits per container. A union army can have a maximum of 35 brigades. a corps 15, a division 5. Confederate armies can have a max of 42 brigades, a corps 18, a division 6. All numbers that need to be changed in my opinion.

(in reply to Twotribes)
Post #: 36
RE: Purpose of Corps - 12/6/2006 1:06:09 AM   
Twotribes


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Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline 		I am aware of this, my point being in the rules it states a Corps can only have 3 division containers for the Union out of a total of 8 units and that an Army can have 4 Corps out of a total of 8 units.

My request being to change the engine to limit containers inside Containers , OR more likely remove the reference to Container limits inside other Containers.

(in reply to chris0827)
Post #: 37
RE: Purpose of Corps - 12/6/2006 1:17:07 AM   
chris0827

 

Posts: 441
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

I am aware of this, my point being in the rules it states a Corps can only have 3 division containers for the Union out of a total of 8 units and that an Army can have 4 Corps out of a total of 8 units.

My request being to change the engine to limit containers inside Containers , OR more likely remove the reference to Container limits inside other Containers.


I'm not sure where you're going. Do you want no limits on the number of containers within another container? I think there needs to be some limits to the size of an army but as the game stand now the union can't come close to historical size armies.

(in reply to Twotribes)
Post #: 38
RE: Purpose of Corps - 12/6/2006 1:32:39 AM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline 		There is NO limit on containers inside another container now. The ONLY limit being the number of brigades allowed. Try it out, it should work.... a Union corps is supposed to only have 3 divisions max, make 5 divisions with one brigade each and see if they can all join the same corps.

(in reply to chris0827)
Post #: 39
RE: Purpose of Corps - 12/6/2006 1:45:12 AM   
chris0827

 

Posts: 441
Joined: 11/17/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

There is NO limit on containers inside another container now. The ONLY limit being the number of brigades allowed. Try it out, it should work.... a Union corps is supposed to only have 3 divisions max, make 5 divisions with one brigade each and see if they can all join the same corps.


Ok. I get what you are saying. They are assuming people will fill up a division with 5 brigades when they say a corps can only have 3 divisions. If you have fewer brigades per division then you can have more divisions.

(in reply to Twotribes)
Post #: 40
RE: Purpose of Corps - 12/6/2006 2:42:48 AM   
cdbeck


Posts: 1374
Joined: 8/16/2005
From: Indiana
Status: offline 		Isn't one of the major benefits of corps to be able to add another echelon of General for your army? I haven't yet been able to do this effectively, but shouldn't you be able to have a 4 star leading your army, a three star or two leading each corps, and some two stars leading each division (making a very nice and fully staffed officer's club).

Son of Montfort


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(Kill them all. God will know his own.)

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(in reply to Paper Tiger)
Post #: 41
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