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RE: What is your favorite WWII tank? - 1/14/2007 11:59:28 AM

tocaff

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Panther, speed. armour, good optics and a lethal gun with a good rate of fire. The best medium tank of WWII and into the 1950s before something better came along. Those T-34s were good, but unrefined and many even lacked a radio.

< Message edited by tocaff -- 1/14/2007 12:10:31 PM >

(in reply to gunny)

Post #: 31

RE: What is your favorite WWII tank? - 1/14/2007 2:40:30 PM

hueglin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc Schwanebeck

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yohan

King Tiger

Too heavy, too slow, to unreliable. But a good looking tank

My take is on the "Sherman Firefly"

This is in the UK OOB. I didn't even know it existed. A Sherman with a 17 pdr gun? And I thought that only the Germans made so many different mods to vehicle chassis. From what I can tell, the Sherman chassis was used for a bewildering number of vehicles.

Sounds like the basis for a trivia question -- what single vehicle chassis in WWII was most used to create new vehicles?

With the Sherman, it wasn't just that it was modded into different types of vehicles, like flails or DDs, there were also different versions based on the availability of engines. They were trying to produce so many that they modified the design to fit different engines e.g. M4A2 - twin diesels, M4A3 - 500hp Ford gas, M4A4 - 370hp Chrysler gas. I have a reference that lists it as having been produced at 17 different plants (including in Canada) for a total production run of 88,410.

My vote for favourite goes to the Panther - beautiful, well-designed (once the teething troubles were taken care of) and powerful. It barely made it into the war, but I would add the Centurion as a tie for what it was able to become in the post-war period.

(in reply to KG Erwin)

Post #: 32

RE: What is your favorite WWII tank? - 1/14/2007 7:18:33 PM

Prince of Eckm�hl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marauders

The overall best? The T34-85

I never understood why the Germans didn't simply copy the T-34 chassis, engine, and drive train, throw on their own turret, weapons system AND A RADIO, and gone with that. It couldn't have taken any longer to arrange than the development of the "uber" vehicles, and the Russian turreted designs were cheaper and easier to construct than those of the Germans. National pride, AFV as symbol of Aryan superiority, perhaps?

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

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RE: What is your favorite WWII tank? - 1/14/2007 9:05:21 PM

Ursa MAior

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckm�hl
National pride, AFV as symbol of Aryan superiority, perhaps?

A little of all the above plus they DID NOT HAVE the technology to copy the diesel which were made of aluminium )at least partially). Plus the german PAk crews were so nervous about the T34s that they fired on them without asking (using captured ones a problem, and there were a lot of them mostly 40 and 41 models).

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RE: What is your favorite WWII tank? - 1/15/2007 5:23:59 AM

Rooster

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Well, maybe I'm being nostalgic about CC2, but I still love the Churchill ARVE

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RE: What is your favorite WWII tank? - 1/15/2007 9:17:40 PM

pauk

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Tiger than Panther.

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RE: What is your favorite WWII tank? - 1/16/2007 4:05:59 PM

SemperAugustus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckm�hl
National pride, AFV as symbol of Aryan superiority, perhaps?

A little of all the above plus they DID NOT HAVE the technology to copy the diesel which were made of aluminium )at least partially).

I heard that too, anyone know the technical reason for their problems?

(in reply to Ursa MAior)

Post #: 37

RE: What is your favorite WWII tank? - 1/16/2007 4:18:47 PM

.50Kerry

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marauders

The Sherman Firefly with 17pdr gun was a good allied tank, but I often wondered why the United States could not build a better tank in 1944 and 1945. That cost many tank crews their lives.

The overall best? The T34-85

The US Army could have built a tank by 1943 that was superior to both the T-34-85 AND the Panther, that it did not owes more to the bueracratic battles the Armor branch faced at the AGF conferences when the TD Branch and Inf branch ganged up on it rather than some glaring inability of US weapons smythes to "build a better tank". I once penned an epic series of posts highlighting the battles in US procurement and how "legacy building" hahampered either an upturreted and gunned M-4 from coming forth in '43 or the M-26 rolling out in numbers by early '44.

The US for better or worse learned the lesson from the superiority of the M4 in Africa and Italy that "we have got a tank that is good enough".

Thread on a similar topic.

quote:

Actually I have several. R.P. Hunnicutt states in 'Sherman' that there was a plan that would allow for heavier guns to be place in the Sherman's CURRENT turret by 1)reducing size of the cartridge case, or 2)mounting a lighter specially designed for tank use gun purposefully off-balance with the trunnions placed at the center of gravity.(the way the Brits mounted the 17 pounder)page 212 by the way. Armored forces then countered with a proposal to mount the PERSHING turret (including 90mm)on M4a3s in July 1944.(after we figured out that even the 76.2mm was a joke as compared to the 88mm and german armor) Both the M4 and M26 turret rings were 69 inches and had similar tolerances.(General Motors even amended the proposal with a suggestion that the silhouette be reduced by reducing the height of the hull whilst maintaining the slope). also page 212 (see the only requirement was that the damn M26 turrets be placed on M4 bodies) more later, sven [ May 21, 2001: Message edited by: sven ]

"Although the upgunned Sherman appeared to be a good solution to the problem of increased firepower, General Holly was informed(might I add in July '44 a year after torpedoing the initial proposal)that it would be about six months before production quantities could be available. By that time the new Pershings would be coming off the assembly lines so the decision was taken to drop the 90mm gun Sherman and concentrate all efforts on speeding up Pershing production. In retrospect, it appears that a wise course would have been to procure some of the 90mm gun Shermans as a hedge against further delays in the procurement of the Pershing. However the real problem was the late hour when the decision was made in favor of a high power tank gun. (Sherman pages 212-213) The delay in accepting that tanks needed an anti-tank capability of their own cost us having eqpt. that could have allowed us to break the German's backs immediately after d-day perhaps. there, sven [ May 21, 2001: Message edited by: sven ]

< Message edited by .50Kerry -- 1/17/2007 1:15:24 AM >

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RE: What is your favorite WWII tank? - 1/16/2007 6:33:24 PM

morvwilson

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One of the things I learned about the sherman and the reason for its dimensions was the railroad tunnels it had to negotiate to get to port. (the japanese tanks had the same problem but with smaller tunnels!). Also the Liberty ships were designed and constructed with the Sherman in mind. So, to redesign the tank to something bigger or heavier would have meant rebuilding railroad tunnels and redesigning the Liberty Ships. Not an easy task at a time when all designs were done on drafting boards with pencils and slide rules!

(in reply to .50Kerry)

Post #: 39

RE: What is your favorite WWII tank? - 1/16/2007 8:37:10 PM

Ursa MAior

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SemperAugustus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckm�hl
National pride, AFV as symbol of Aryan superiority, perhaps?

A little of all the above plus they DID NOT HAVE the technology to copy the diesel which were made of aluminium )at least partially).

I heard that too, anyone know the technical reason for their problems?

The body of the engine was a molded aluminium block IIRC. Plus it was diesel. Oddly enough the germans failed to priuce any usable diesel engine for their tansk in WWII. (Maus was turbo electric the rest normal otto engined even the Tiger II). BTW the Porsche engine used in the tigers was the first V10 engine.

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RE: What is your favorite WWII tank? - 1/17/2007 1:06:52 AM

.50Kerry

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tocaff

Panther, speed. armour, good optics and a lethal gun with a good rate of fire. The best medium tank of WWII and into the 1950s before something better came along. Those T-34s were good, but unrefined and many even lacked a radio.

Yeah I am telling you I can't imagine what a Panther would have done in say 1954 against an M-48...well actually I can it would have burnt. Same with the Centurion versus the Mittens. The Panther and Tiger were evolutionary dead ends.

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RE: What is your favorite WWII tank? - 1/17/2007 4:05:24 PM

.50Kerry

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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvwilson

One of the things I learned about the sherman and the reason for its dimensions was the railroad tunnels it had to negotiate to get to port. (the japanese tanks had the same problem but with smaller tunnels!). Also the Liberty ships were designed and constructed with the Sherman in mind. So, to redesign the tank to something bigger or heavier would have meant rebuilding railroad tunnels and redesigning the Liberty Ships. Not an easy task at a time when all designs were done on drafting boards with pencils and slide rules!

A good point, those facts are what doomed the M6 and helped delay the M-26.(the irony being the M-26 suffered no loss of strategic mobility in reality)

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RE: What is your favorite WWII tank? - 1/17/2007 4:35:16 PM

Reiryc

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My favorite is probably the panther... good deal of punch with nice lines.

Second is probably the pz4g. Always liked the way these looked.

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RE: What is your favorite WWII tank? - 1/17/2007 4:57:14 PM

UndercoverNotChickenSalad

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Not ww2 but the t72 is the prettiest tank I've seen. I like the mag wheels it looks like a racecar sort of.

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RE: What is your favorite WWII tank? - 1/17/2007 5:49:37 PM

morvwilson

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quote:

ORIGINAL: .50Kerry

quote:

ORIGINAL: morvwilson

One of the things I learned about the sherman and the reason for its dimensions was the railroad tunnels it had to negotiate to get to port. (the japanese tanks had the same problem but with smaller tunnels!). Also the Liberty ships were designed and constructed with the Sherman in mind. So, to redesign the tank to something bigger or heavier would have meant rebuilding railroad tunnels and redesigning the Liberty Ships. Not an easy task at a time when all designs were done on drafting boards with pencils and slide rules!

A good point, those facts are what doomed the M6 and helped delay the M-26.(the irony being the M-26 suffered no loss of strategic mobility in reality)

If I remember right, the M-26 was a lighter tank than the sherman and had a lower profile. That would tend to make it easier to transport, not harder as was the case of the M-6

(in reply to .50Kerry)

Post #: 45

RE: What is your favorite WWII tank? - 1/17/2007 5:51:44 PM

morvwilson

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quote:

ORIGINAL: UndercoverNotChickenSalad

Not ww2 but the t72 is the prettiest tank I've seen.� I like the mag wheels it looks like a racecar sort of.

Gotta agree, pretty tank. But falls short of its contemporaries (M-1 Abrams, Challenger, Leapard II, Mercava)

(in reply to UndercoverNotChickenSalad)

Post #: 46

RE: What is your favorite WWII tank? - 1/17/2007 6:48:02 PM

JSS

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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvwilson

If I remember right, the M-26 was a lighter tank than the sherman and had a lower profile. That would tend to make it easier to transport, not harder as was the case of the M-6

The M26 was a heavy tank. Big and slow like the Tigers it was designed to kill. Recall reading only two of them saw combat in WWII.

(in reply to morvwilson)

Post #: 47

RE: What is your favorite WWII tank? - 1/17/2007 8:54:45 PM

hank

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Morvwilson may be thinking of the M24 Chaffee which was a lighter tank than the sherman. Like JSS said, the M26 Pershing was a big tank. ... with a 90mm main gun ... if I remember right.

... everyone here must be old 'cause we're all wondering if "we remember right" ...

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RE: What is your favorite WWII tank? - 1/17/2007 11:45:34 PM

hueglin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: .50Kerry

quote:

ORIGINAL: tocaff

Panther, speed. armour, good optics and a lethal gun with a good rate of fire. The best medium tank of WWII and into the 1950s before something better came along. Those T-34s were good, but unrefined and many even lacked a radio.

Yeah I am telling you I can't imagine what a Panther would have done in say 1954 against an M-48...well actually I can it would have burnt. Same with the Centurion versus the Mittens. The Panther and Tiger were evolutionary dead ends.

I disagree with your assessment of the Panther vs M48. Assuming development was continued on the Panther through 1945 and beyond by 1954 it would have at least an 88mm gun (plans were already in progress to do this with a smaller turret in 1945) and possibly a diesel engine. The first M48s were disasters in terms of reliability and (as with many new tanks) it took a lot of time to work through the teething troubles. It initially had a gas engine as did the Panther.

While I am not a technical guru, a cursory glance at the Panther's overall size and turret ring diameter would indicate to me that it could probably have been developed in a very similar way to the Centurion and remained an effective tank well into the 1980s.

Speaking of the Centurion - I don't understand this comment of yours: Same with the Centurion versus the Mittens. i presume the "Mittens" is a nickname for a tank but I have never heard it before.

(in reply to .50Kerry)

Post #: 49

RE: What is your favorite WWII tank? - 1/17/2007 11:58:50 PM

Rune Iversen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hueglin

While I am not a technical guru, a cursory glance at the Panther's overall size and turret ring diameter would indicate to me that it could probably have been developed in a very similar way to the Centurion and remained an effective tank well into the 1980s.

Ehrmmmm....

Let me cue you in: When the germans themselves set about building an indegenous MBT in the 1960s, how much did it resemble the Panther?

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RE: What is your favorite WWII tank? - 1/18/2007 12:03:57 AM

hueglin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvwilson

quote:

ORIGINAL: UndercoverNotChickenSalad

Not ww2 but the t72 is the prettiest tank I've seen. I like the mag wheels it looks like a racecar sort of.

Gotta agree, pretty tank. But falls short of its contemporaries (M-1 Abrams, Challenger, Leapard II, Mercava)

It falls short of M-1 Abrams, Challenger, Leopard II, Merkava because they are not its contemporaries - The 72 in T-72 refers to the year the vehicle either began production or went into service. That makes it contemporary (in design terms) with the Chieftain. It falls in between the 1960s designs (M60, AMX-30, Leopard 1) and the 1980s designs (M1, Merkava - 1979, Leopard II and Challenger). The initial M1s had a 105mm gun and didn't get the 120mm gun until 1985.

Imagine how the T-72 would have looked against its contemporaries in the early and mid 1970s - M60A1, AMX-30, Leopard 1, and Chieftain. I am not saying it was the best tank - but it would compare very favourably.

(in reply to morvwilson)

Post #: 51

RE: What is your favorite WWII tank? - 1/18/2007 12:32:59 AM

.50Kerry

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hueglin

I disagree with your assessment of the Panther vs M48. Assuming development was continued on the Panther through 1945 and beyond by 1954 it would have at least an 88mm gun (plans were already in progress to do this with a smaller turret in 1945) and possibly a diesel engine. The first M48s were disasters in terms of reliability and (as with many new tanks) it took a lot of time to work through the teething troubles. It initially had a gas engine as did the Panther.

Yes yes, this goes along the line of giant mutated squirrels. If the Panther was the answer it charms me the Germans went along ENTIRELY different lines when they regained control of their own developmental destiny. I look at the Leo and I see neither of the WW2 Mitten tanks involved.

quote:

ORIGINAL: hueglin
While I am not a technical guru, a cursory glance at the Panther's overall size and turret ring diameter would indicate to me that it could probably have been developed in a very similar way to the Centurion and remained an effective tank well into the 1980s.

We can take this argument in one of two directions. A fantasy land where Germany continues developing its pituitary cases without ANY US continuation of its own war time speed of modernization in equipment. Sort of a Teutonic Starship troopers where military modernization goes on and on without interruption for one side alone or we can take this as a real world 19 say 54 fight between real 1950s tanks and the Mittens as reality left them.

Me I personally like "reality". A M48 in 1954 was at least the equal of "real Panthers"...add in the better warhead capability of the M47/M48 main gun the thicker armor the superior fire control and I'll take the Patton every time. The M-26 got some kills how many M-26s did Fwitz manage to ice?

The M-46 itself was far superior to the T-34/85 another of these mythic "1940s designs that transcend the development cycle of the cold war" in some people's minds.

I'll compare the stats of the M47/M48 90mm to the vaunted 88mm ANY day of the week as long as we are stuck in "reality" if we are using real 1954 ammo versus real ww2 German stock of ammo.

Now if we want to go to candy land well we had the M68 105mm by 1959 at the latest, and even our poor benighted Tank designers could have mated the M58 to a lighter design in a jam if we are going to allow Fritz to magically overcome his late war metallurgical issues.

quote:

ORIGINAL: hueglin
Speaking of the Centurion - I don't understand this comment of yours: Same with the Centurion versus the Mittens. i presume the "Mittens" is a nickname for a tank but I have never heard it before.

The Centurion was a design that REALLY transcended the cold war. Take a look at footage of the M60's M68 sampling even the superior in armor to the Mittens M48 ability to eat a modern HEAT round.

Mittens=s "Overloved German Kitty Tanks".

The gentleman I responded to was stating the Panther as rendered was a viable tank into the '50s.

"Good Luck" is all I have to say.

The US Tanks mentioned were no where near as good as UK armor of the period pound for pound and I'd still rather be in them.

As Rune and I have pointed out, if the Mittens were "the future" it strikes me as odd that not ONE of the Allied powers "hijacked the designs" as we and the Soviets are accused of doing for everything from the AK-47 to the F-104. Germany itself went in an entirely new direction regarding armor design once they regained control of the ball. Seeing as how they adopted the G-3 which was seriously an evolution of German ww2 weapon's designers intent as seen by its bloodlines in the CETME maybe you can explain why?

Nazi design was gearing towards the Maus as the "next big thing".

I'd have stuck with the M-26 on an accelerated development cycle.

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RE: What is your favorite WWII tank? - 1/18/2007 12:44:39 AM

Rune Iversen

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Hell, even the M41 firing HVAP would have eaten the Panther

< Message edited by Rune Iversen -- 1/18/2007 12:56:53 AM >

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RE: What is your favorite WWII tank? - 1/18/2007 1:46:11 AM

morvwilson

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hank

Morvwilson may be thinking of the M24 Chaffee which was a lighter tank than the sherman.� Like JSS said, the M26 Pershing was a big tank.� ... with a 90mm main gun ... if I remember right.

... everyone here must be old 'cause we're all wondering if "we remember right" ...

Thanks for the correction, too many "M" somethings in the US inventory for an old codger like me to remember!

After all I have been 25 years old now for 18 years!

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Post #: 54

RE: What is your favorite WWII tank? - 1/18/2007 2:47:51 AM

hueglin

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quote:

The Centurion was a design that REALLY transcended the cold war.

I agree with this comment. The Centurion was a good all around tank that was able to "grow" with improved engines, armour, firepower and fire-control.

The comments I made about the Panther are hypothetical as clearly there was no way for the Germans to win the war or continue developing it. So I would agree that there is no tank that was in service in 1945 that, without any further improvements, could compete well with an M48 in 1954.

My point was that, from a technical point of view, I believe the Panther had the growth potential to continue in service, with improvements, like the Centurion did.

Although it didn't happen with the Panther, German designs were manufactured and improved upon after the war. The Czechs produced an improved version of the Sdkfz 251 designated the OT-810 and the Swiss produced a version of the Hetzer (http://www.pzfahrer.net/improve.html).

(in reply to .50Kerry)

Post #: 55

RE: What is your favorite WWII tank? - 1/18/2007 3:23:30 AM

hueglin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rune Iversen

quote:

ORIGINAL: hueglin

While I am not a technical guru, a cursory glance at the Panther's overall size and turret ring diameter would indicate to me that it could probably have been developed in a very similar way to the Centurion and remained an effective tank well into the 1980s.

Ehrmmmm....

Let me cue you in: When the germans themselves set about building an indegenous MBT in the 1960s, how much did it resemble the Panther?

If you follow the same logic with American tank development, then you would have to question whether the M48/M60 design was any good. The M1 was a major change in design philosophy with a much lower silhouette, different type of engine, and more emphasis on protection.

Just because design philosophy changes does not mean that what came before wasn't any good. The Germans were able to have a completely fresh start and changed their design philosophy. They chose to emphasis mobility (as did the French with the AMX-30). If you look at subsequent Leopard I models however, and following through to Leopard II and its evolution, they have continually up-armoured them at the expense of some mobility.

Below is an interesting quote from a publication called : The Royal Armoured Corps Tank Museum - Tanks of Other Nations - Germany - published by the RAC Tank Museum in 1969.

Referring to the Leopard I - "It is a well constructed tank, fast, easily handled and with a good radius of action. It is a little disappointing that it does not represent anything like the advance on current models that the Panther did when it came into service."

(in reply to Rune Iversen)

Post #: 56

RE: What is your favorite WWII tank? - 1/18/2007 3:41:37 AM

.50Kerry

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hueglin

Referring to the Leopard I - "It is a well constructed tank, fast, easily handled and with a good radius of action. It is a little disappointing that it does not represent anything like the advance on current models that the Panther did when it came into service."

Ever ponder whether a design philosophy that led to a defeat but was replaced by adhereing to the concepts the war winning power used being catergorized as a "disappointment" would be laughed at by the people who embraced the Leo over the pituitary disorder evolution?

The "triad" of sensible tank designs of world war 2 is the Pz IV, Sherman, and T-34 series. The Germans never achieved the gains they did with the 3/4 punch with any of the Kitties. Now one can argue, ja ja different era of the war and possibly have a case but the fact of the matter is that armor design is a triangle between lethality, durability, and mobility.

The tanks above all excelled and had near ranges on having a near "balance" of the three. Time passed by the heavy and light tanks but the "Medium's grandchildren" the MBTs soldier on for now. The German war effort would have been better served improving their mediums...not seeing the Maus in the mists so to speak.

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RE: What is your favorite WWII tank? - 1/18/2007 4:04:12 AM

IronDuke_slith

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quote:

ORIGINAL: .50Kerry

quote:

ORIGINAL: hueglin

Referring to the Leopard I - "It is a well constructed tank, fast, easily handled and with a good radius of action. It is a little disappointing that it does not represent anything like the advance on current models that the Panther did when it came into service."

Ever ponder whether a design philosophy that led to a defeat but was replaced by adhereing to the concepts the war winning power used being catergorized as a "disappointment" would be laughed at by the people who embraced the Leo over the pituitary disorder evolution?

The "triad" of sensible tank designs of world war 2 is the Pz IV, Sherman, and T-34 series. The Germans never achieved the gains they did with the 3/4 punch with any of the Kitties. Now one can argue, ja ja different era of the war and possibly have a case but the fact of the matter is that armor design is a triangle between lethality, durability, and mobility.

The tanks above all excelled and had near ranges on having a near "balance" of the three. Time passed by the heavy and light tanks but the "Medium's grandchildren" the MBTs soldier on for now. The German war effort would have been better served improving their mediums...not seeing the Maus in the mists so to speak.

I thought the Panther was marginally quicker than the Sherman so would include that in this list since it could also out kill and out last any of them with sloped armour and the uber 75.

If by "design philosophy" you mean too over engineered for an economy like the German one, I would agree. If it means anything else, I probably wouldn't, I think the Panther was pound for pound the outstanding Tank of the war. Once the teething troubles were ironed out, I don't see too much wrong with the design philosophy save the German economy couldn't make enough of them.

Re the Sherman and the absence of American uber AFVs, I think it is more complicated than just blaming McNair and the Infantry Branch. The Cavalry branch showed little appetite either (they were still debating whether to reintroduce the sabre in 1938) and the armor branch as it evolved didn't really require an uber MBT to meet its doctrinal requirements. Patton never wanted the M26 despite being America's foremost Tanker. The fact is (IMHO) America never stood a chance of having better tanks because there was not enough pressure for them until Shermans regularly started getting holes in them in Normandy. It was not just a TD "Mafia" but a general lack of pressure. The Sherman suited because it was simple and straightforward (a good weapon for a Civilian Army) and easily transportable in large numbers (suiting american doctrine and geo-strategic position.) Fairly quick and maneuvrable, it also suited deep operations which is how chaffee and his successors envisaged Armor's (sic) role.

Regards,
IronDuke

EDIT: I think the MAUS thing is also overused. You can argue it was a tactical dead end and a waste of development and resources, but without it, if the war had continued on for longer, how would the Germans have stopped the T95?

< Message edited by IronDuke -- 1/18/2007 4:19:40 AM >

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(in reply to .50Kerry)

Post #: 58

RE: What is your favorite WWII tank? - 1/18/2007 4:40:52 AM

.50Kerry

Posts: 325
Joined: 3/30/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: IronDuke

I thought the Panther was marginally quicker than the Sherman so would include that in this list since it could also out kill and out last any of them with sloped armour and the uber 75.

Depends on how we are defining "quicker" are we discussing tactical, operational, or strategically "quicker"? Are we discussing comparing (as wikipedia does) the M4A1 with the last generation of Panther?

The M4A2-76 was capable of sustained, and by sustained I mean sustained as long as the tranny held up(much longer than any kitty) and the fuel held up(again much longer than the kitty), and the tracks held(again much longer than any Kitty) speeds of 48KMH. So yeah allegedly accoridng to wiki and some cites the Panther was in possession of a 7KMH speed advantage.....that was drawing power from the turret since the turret drew its power from the drive train.

US Army Intell stated the V had a speed of 50KMH stated
http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/ttt_panther/index.html

the AFV database has 48 for the Sherm and 55 for the Kitty.

The Panther was a "heavy" and if we are picking based on tech envy I would still rather be in the M-26 since at US rates of productions I would STILL have had a 5 to 1 advantage by 1946.

We are it seems arguing at cross purposes, I mocked someone's understanding of proper APC/IFV durability theory by stating "can it survive sabot? if so it is a sandcrawler!"

The point being as grim and ruthless as it sounds it is better for a society to produce a weapons system that is JUST GOOD ENOUGH but can be produced simply, cheaply, and ably. The funny thing is that when a fan of Allied giants points out in the case of the M6 for example that we HAD the "pre-tiger" and it was standardized and accepted but never used it is "fantasy" but when a user points out this fantasy land a lot of folks live in where the Tiger and Panther were potential war winning designs they are "also living in fantasy".

I have a number for you 5,995

I have another number for you 44,374

anyway we are comparing vehicles with over 30,000 pounds in weight difference...like I said I guess the Panther is a "medium" when compared to the Maus.....

"I guess".

The US and USSR and even the UK had the number of Germany on Armor IMHO.

< Message edited by .50Kerry -- 1/19/2007 5:26:13 AM >

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Anchors aweigh!

(in reply to IronDuke_slith)

Post #: 59

RE: What is your favorite WWII tank? - 1/18/2007 4:41:44 AM

Twotribes

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Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
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I can agree with Iron Dukes assessment of the Sherman and why the US never made a "bigger" "Better" tank. Sven said pretty much the same thing but included the "mafia" stuff as historical fact.

(in reply to IronDuke_slith)

Post #: 60