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RE: What is your favorite WWII tank?

 
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RE: What is your favorite WWII tank? - 1/26/2007 10:36:30 AM   
Ursa MAior

 

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From: Hungary, EU
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Doggie
You may be here to talk tanks, but baby bear is here to talk trash:


Some things you cannot change can ya? Next time you will call me nigger by accident. You know what I am only W in WASP. You can start throwing stones.

quote:

you are not strong enough already to rule the world alone does not equal
In other words, "Americans suck." !


Where is the connection? The imminent lack of logical relation between the two statements is why I say your thinking is as simple as a stick. The meaning of my sentnce is: The world's economy, which is more and more becoming more important then the strength of the armed forces, has grown faster than the US did. Europe is more or less united, China, India is growing faster an faster and even Russia is getting its positions back.

quote:

What does all this continued leftist agi-prop have to do with tanks?


Coming from an ex comie country, of which you -as a highly educated person- are probably aware, agitprop and leftist are insults where I come from. So if you want to start a flame war klanboy, here I am (see also may answer on nicks). To continue in your highly PC style what does your racist mumble jumble has to do with tanks either?

quote:

It seems blatent hypocrisy is becoming a pattern here.


You know I keep rules as long as they are not used against me. It was you who started mocking nicks. So in the sense of 'Do not fire unless fired upon' you have relieved me of the necessíty to be polite with you. You cant defeat your enemy if you dont play by his rules. I adapt.

quote:

When you're digging yourself into a hole, the first step is to stop digging.
While a child's eye view of world politics can be entertaining, tantrums can be tedius. The first step in being taken seriously is to be more respectfull of the grown-ups.


1. Judging from your adolescent net prophet style I am not sure you are elder than me.
2. I was taught to respect the elder, but also to be proud of my heritage, my country.
Why should I show respect to you? You have insulted both. You join a conversation and start your racist rumble jumble (after 50kerry has openly admitted being arrogant, a really nice personal feature) . Entering with blazing guns is a sure way to get some firing in return.

See your first post in this thread
quote:

RE: What is your favorite WWII tank? - 1/24/2007 1:44:59 AM
Doggie
Stuff like this is the reason Americans don't care what you think. What has your left wing opinions got to do with tanks?
You're clearly out of your league here so all you got is "Americans are doo doo heads"
"Hungary, EU" Good luck with the fourth reich.


I am not your slave, so I can have a different opinion. A place where everybody has the same opnion is called a dictatorship. May I ask which counbtry do you live in? Which system you support?

Edited for spelling.

< Message edited by Ursa MAior -- 1/26/2007 10:56:32 AM >

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RE: What is your favorite WWII tank? - 1/26/2007 4:58:12 PM   
Knuckles_85


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Status: offline 		Ok I added in haste my explaination in the use on concentration camp as a propoganda tool. I was unaware that the Brits actually used that term and not interment camps. My examples of insurgencies being put down still stands though.

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RE: What is your favorite WWII tank? - 1/26/2007 5:00:51 PM   
Knuckles_85


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quote:

Some things you cannot change can ya? Next time you will call me nigger by accident. You know what I am only W in WASP. You can start throwing stones.
Huh? Where did he call you a nigger? I've known doggie for 5 years (Damn has it really been that long ago I came to Matrix?) and have never seen him call anyone a nigger. Trust me being a black man I would have picked up on it (yes Chicken I'm using my trump card again).

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RE: What is your favorite WWII tank? - 1/26/2007 8:15:16 PM   
Procrustes

 

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Let's try to take this thread back to some reasonable topic. If people want to play with each other, please go start another thread - or return to other boards.



Anyways, the Churchill tank was pretty cool:



All the neat variations - the Crocidile flame tank:



The carpet layer:



And the AVRE - with the spigot mortar:



The pictures of them littering the Dieppe beaches always stuck with me:









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Post #: 124
RE: What is your favorite WWII tank? - 1/26/2007 8:30:39 PM   
Ursa MAior

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Knuckles_85

quote:

Some things you cannot change can ya? Next time you will call me nigger by accident. You know what I am only W in WASP. You can start throwing stones.
Huh? Where did he call you a nigger? I've known doggie for 5 years (Damn has it really been that long ago I came to Matrix?) and have never seen him call anyone a nigger. Trust me being a black man I would have picked up on it (yes Chicken I'm using my trump card again).


He did not say it but it would fit very well in his extremist style. Sorry if I insulted you with this word.

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RE: What is your favorite WWII tank? - 1/26/2007 10:41:57 PM   
mdiehl

 

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quote:

He did not say it but it would fit very well in his extremist style. Sorry if I insulted you with this word.


Ah. So, Doggie would call someone a "nigger" if Ursa were the one writing Doggie's replies.

Interesting.

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Post #: 126
RE: What is your favorite WWII tank? - 1/26/2007 11:29:45 PM   
.50Kerry


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior



He did not say it but it would fit very well in his extremist style. Sorry if I insulted you with this word.



I think you are projecting what you think the US rightwing is all about versus what it is about these days. 1st African-American SoS? Us. 2d African-American S0S and first African-American females SoS? Us.

I have no use or care for anyone who pigeonholes anyone for good or ill based on their skin color or creed.

NO USE.

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Post #: 127
RE: What is your favorite WWII tank? - 1/26/2007 11:41:44 PM   
Terminus


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RE: What is your favorite WWII tank? - 1/26/2007 11:54:02 PM   
Speedysteve

 

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Enough guys i'd say.

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RE: What is your favorite WWII tank? - 1/26/2007 11:57:30 PM   
hueglin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Procrustes


Let's try to take this thread back to some reasonable topic. If people want to play with each other, please go start another thread - or return to other boards.



Anyways, the Churchill tank was pretty cool:



All the neat variations - the Crocidile flame tank:



The carpet layer:



And the AVRE - with the spigot mortar:



The pictures of them littering the Dieppe beaches always stuck with me:




I second the motion. The Churchill was a pretty neat looking tank. There was an interesting prototype armed with a 17pdr named the Black Prince which did not go into service (most probably because the war was nearly over and the Centurion was clearly a better tank.










Attachment (2)

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RE: What is your favorite WWII tank? - 1/26/2007 11:59:11 PM   
hueglin


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Status: offline 		I can't seem to get the images to work. Here is another try.









Note: Pictures taken from article on Wikipedia.

Attachment (2)

< Message edited by hueglin -- 1/27/2007 12:13:28 AM >

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RE: What is your favorite WWII tank? - 1/27/2007 12:04:10 AM   
mdiehl

 

Posts: 5998
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Status: offline 		The Churchill definitely has a panache that it shares in some ways with the PzVIE. All those vertical front surfaces. It has a brute, "blunt instrument" kind of look about it that has a kind of appeal.

Another fave of mine is the US M3 (diesel) Stuart. You have to love a recce tank with 5 MGs.

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RE: What is your favorite WWII tank? - 1/27/2007 12:12:30 AM   
Speedysteve

 

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RE: What is your favorite WWII tank? - 1/27/2007 12:13:45 AM   
EUBanana


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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvwilson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

I LIKE the idea of the T-35, so many cannon, but reality is it just wasnt gonna work ) .

True enough! When ever I used them in Steel Panthers or Squad Leader(guess I am aging myself there) they either broke down or made excelent target practice for the other side


Steel Panthers has T-35s???

I got WinSPWW2... I'm gonna go look now. :D

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RE: What is your favorite WWII tank? - 1/27/2007 12:13:53 AM   
hueglin


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quote:

My vote goes to the JS II (I don't think the III quite made it in time -- but I could be wrong).
Heavily armoured, powerful gun, fairly reliable as heavy tanks go.
Surprised to hear no mention of the Comet.
Regards,

Rob.


I like both of your picks. JS-2s were still listed as being in service as late as 1968 (USAEUR Pamphlet 30-60-1, 1968). The South Africans still had some Comets (perhaps not in service, but in their inventory) as late as 1980 and the Burmese had some as late as 1985. (Military Balance 1980-81 and 1985-86)

The JS-3 is reported as having first gone into action in January of 1945. There is a lot of information on the net from Russian sources about it and it's successors (T-10 and T-10M), some of it not very favourable.

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RE: What is your favorite WWII tank? - 1/27/2007 12:14:04 AM   
Terminus


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Status: offline 		Some KV-1 variants had them, certainly...

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RE: What is your favorite WWII tank? - 1/27/2007 12:17:58 AM   
Twotribes


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

quote:

ORIGINAL: morvwilson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

I LIKE the idea of the T-35, so many cannon, but reality is it just wasnt gonna work ) .

True enough! When ever I used them in Steel Panthers or Squad Leader(guess I am aging myself there) they either broke down or made excelent target practice for the other side


Steel Panthers has T-35s???

I got WinSPWW2... I'm gonna go look now. :D


I dont remember if they are in SPWW2 or not, I know they were in SPWAW at one time if not there any more.

Remember by 1939 - 1941 there were few of them and most were not functional. A few did, as I recall, fight the 41 invasion.

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RE: What is your favorite WWII tank? - 1/27/2007 12:18:19 AM   
hueglin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvwilson

What, no one else likes the russian T-35?


I must admit I kind of fancy the T-35, and the T-28 for that matter. I know that means I have now voted for about 5 different tanks but who says you can't have more than one favourite.

Maybe we should have categories!
Light, Medium, Heavy, Multi-turreted, Special-purpose ...

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RE: What is your favorite WWII tank? - 1/27/2007 12:21:11 AM   
EUBanana


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Knuckles_85

Ok I added in haste my explaination in the use on concentration camp as a propoganda tool. I was unaware that the Brits actually used that term and not interment camps. My examples of insurgencies being put down still stands though.


"Concentration camp" was not a loaded term during the Boer War, and far as I know it wasn't until after the Nazi camps were revealed to the world.

IIRC they had 'protected villages' in the Vietnam War which were basically the same thing as the original concentration camps, just renamed, so as not to be associated with Nazi death camps.

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RE: What is your favorite WWII tank? - 1/27/2007 12:25:03 AM   
EUBanana


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes
I dont remember if they are in SPWW2 or not, I know they were in SPWAW at one time if not there any more.

Remember by 1939 - 1941 there were few of them and most were not functional. A few did, as I recall, fight the 41 invasion.


Heh, they are in WinSPWW2 it seems. How did I miss those...

I'm gonna try it out now. I bet in the game its actually effective, those multiturreted Lee and Char tanks are pretty good in Steel Panthers...

Edited to add - not multiturreted, multi-gunned. you know what I mean... far as the game is concerned all the same thing I imagine.

< Message edited by EUBanana -- 1/27/2007 12:36:18 AM >

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RE: What is your favorite WWII tank? - 1/27/2007 12:27:59 AM   
mdiehl

 

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quote:

AFV's have fixed rear firing MG's?


Uh, a bunch of Soviet ones did. The US M3 to which I referred had 1 coax, 1 ball mount front hull, 1 turret top, and two fixed forward firing ones attached to the sponsons. Plus the 37MM gun. A 1940 design that if actually deployed in 1940 would temporarily have ruled the turf.

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RE: What is your favorite WWII tank? - 1/27/2007 12:58:14 AM   
hawker


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Status: offline 		My list of best tanks:

1.IS-3 (No tank in WW2 cannot stand a chance against them)
2.IS-2 (look above)
3.Tiger


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RE: What is your favorite WWII tank? - 1/27/2007 1:03:09 AM   
Smead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hawker

My list of best tanks:

1.IS-3 (No tank in WW2 cannot stand a chance against them)
2.IS-2 (look above)
3.Tiger



Though my usage in SP2WW2 of both the IS-2 & 3's reflects the inability of the crews to put shot on target.

I have always like the Cromwell's lines though.

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RE: What is your favorite WWII tank? - 1/27/2007 1:36:50 AM   
mdiehl

 

Posts: 5998
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Status: offline 		I like  em in this order:
Best heavy tank: (1) US M26 (2) JS2. The Tigers don't measure up IMO. The PzVIE is too poorly armored for its weight and lack of mobility and has a lousy turret traverse; it could have been a real fine tank if they'd sloped the front. The Koenigstiger is a real tough nut until you try to actually drive it anywhere-- at which point its own poor overland characteristics make it near useless, strategically, except on defense.


Best medium tank: (1) PzVG (2) US M4A3 (76) wet stowage, diesel ( 3) T34-85. I like the Sherman alot because it has the best all around armament, armor comparable to the PZVs, and none of the reliability problems. But the PZV has a very very good gun and the late PzVs were not so unreliable as the earlier models.


Best light tank: (1) US M24 (2)US M5/M3 type. No other light tank contends with these guys for mobility or hitting power.

< Message edited by mdiehl -- 1/27/2007 1:49:21 AM >

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RE: What is your favorite WWII tank? - 1/27/2007 10:05:17 AM   
morvwilson


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes
I dont remember if they are in SPWW2 or not, I know they were in SPWAW at one time if not there any more.

Remember by 1939 - 1941 there were few of them and most were not functional. A few did, as I recall, fight the 41 invasion.


Heh, they are in WinSPWW2 it seems. How did I miss those...

I'm gonna try it out now. I bet in the game its actually effective, those multiturreted Lee and Char tanks are pretty good in Steel Panthers...

Edited to add - not multiturreted, multi-gunned. you know what I mean... far as the game is concerned all the same thing I imagine.


Let me know if they work any better for you than they did for me

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RE: What is your favorite WWII tank? - 1/27/2007 10:33:16 PM   
Smead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

I like  em in this order:
Best heavy tank: (1) US M26 (2) JS2. The Tigers don't measure up IMO. The PzVIE is too poorly armored for its weight and lack of mobility and has a lousy turret traverse; it could have been a real fine tank if they'd sloped the front. The Koenigstiger is a real tough nut until you try to actually drive it anywhere-- at which point its own poor overland characteristics make it near useless, strategically, except on defense.


Best medium tank: (1) PzVG (2) US M4A3 (76) wet stowage, diesel ( 3) T34-85. I like the Sherman alot because it has the best all around armament, armor comparable to the PZVs, and none of the reliability problems. But the PZV has a very very good gun and the late PzVs were not so unreliable as the earlier models.


Best light tank: (1) US M24 (2)US M5/M3 type. No other light tank contends with these guys for mobility or hitting power.


Actually saw a postwar General Motors advertisement saying that if you liked the M-5 with it's Hydramatic(?) transmission, you would love a new Cadillac.

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RE: What is your favorite WWII tank? - 1/28/2007 2:36:38 PM   
Rune Iversen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hueglin


The Panther must have been a dead end design and therefore a bad tank because the Leopard was not like it.
My view on that is that design philosophies change and that doesn't make the previous tank a bad one. There was no evolution from the Sherman to the M26/M46/M47/M48/M60. The Sherman was a medium tank and the others were heavy tanks/main battle tanks (the M26 was originally classed as a heavy tank). That doesn't make the Sherman a bad tank.


I concur.

quote:

The Panther could never have been as good as an M48.
When you look at the specifications for both tanks they are very similar - even though the Panther was designed about 10 years earlier. Weight, engine hp, armour and dimensions are all very similar. The major difference was that in 1945 the Panther had a 75mm gun and in 1954 the M48 had a 90mm gun. As I have already said, I think the Panther had the growth potential to take a larger calibre gun (as did the Centurion) so it would in every way have been comparable to the M48 if some country had kept them in service and chosen to upgrade them. (edited a typo and missing words)


The french used the Panther and Jagdpanther into the 1950s (even copied the "long 75mm" on the panther and put it on the AMX 13. Also sold it to israel to put in the M50 SuperSherman). As soon as they could get US M47´s, they ditched their Panthers. They didn´t use them in Indochina or Algeria either. What does this imply?
'

quote:

The Panther, Tiger I and II and the Maus were all examples of a German fixation on super heavy tanks.

My comments have only related to the Panther and I do not think it can be classed in the same category as the other three heavier tanks. The Panther, as I mention above, had characteristics very similar to the M48 - it was not super heavy or under-powered. In fact you might argue that it was the first true MBT (with the Centurion and M26 as close seconds). The Panther was clearly not "medium" when compared to contemporary medium tanks (M4, T-34) but it was not really heavy either (like the Tigers).


I suppose.

quote:

The Panther was a design philosophy that led to defeat.
Germany lost the war for a lot of more important reasons than the Panther design. Again, if the Panther was a design dead end, why does it have so many characteristics that are similar to the M48?


It doesn´t .

quote:

With regards to the M48/M60/Leopard. I was not saying that they were not good designs, just that there was a change in design philosophy in both cases. The US went from the M4 to the M26/M46/M47/M48/M60 as their main tanks, and then to the M1. Each jump represents a change in design - they don't share much in common. Same thing with the Panther and the Leopard. None of them were bad tanks.


Well, the M26 and siblings still remained in general service for 40 years in the US, while the Panther barely survived into the 50´s. To me this speaks volumes about the feasibility and efficiency of the design (as opposed to battlefield performance).

quote:

My closing thought: If I had to pick any German WWII tank that I had to keep in service into the 1950s it would have been the Panther.

It's still my favourite (see original post) even if it wasn't perfect.


Well, the french did. And promptly ditched as soon as they could get their grubby mitts on a "real" US medium design. I am afraid I just don´t see very much potential in the Panther outside it´s WW2 context (where it indeed could be formidable at times).

< Message edited by Rune Iversen -- 1/28/2007 2:49:28 PM >

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RE: What is your favorite WWII tank? - 1/28/2007 2:45:06 PM   
Rune Iversen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: IronDuke



They had the mostest. I think the Soviets were producing the largest numbers of quality vehicles towards the end of the war but I think that reflects that the eastern front was where Tank design was really being driven. The T34 drove the Panther and the Panther/Tiger drove the T34/85 and later IS designs. The Tiger II was the German's next step.

......Was it a war winner? In the west, yes, but that was partly because nothing else was being used.....

Regards,
IronDuke


If that is so, how come that the soviets were praising the Shermans the received via LL as "Top of the Pops"? And how come the M4a3E8 w. 76mm gun was beating the supposedly "better" T34(85 coming from the supposedly more combat intensive invironment of the Eastern Front in Korea?

< Message edited by Rune Iversen -- 1/28/2007 3:08:12 PM >

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RE: What is your favorite WWII tank? - 1/28/2007 2:51:23 PM   
Rune Iversen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior

Panther II's was designed with a 88mm KWK 43 in april 43 with Schmalturm (narrowturret). Tank experts.

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/panth2.htm

Well .50 Kerry and Rune. Go look for mdiehl, spence and Demosthenes in the WitP forums. They have the same view of historical events like you. Code word is imperial arrogance. See ya.




Heh. The allied 1950 designs (M48 and 20 pdr Centurion) would have beaten the Panther II like a rented mule.


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RE: What is your favorite WWII tank? - 1/28/2007 3:00:30 PM   
Rune Iversen


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quote:

Yes, but you can understand my pique at the myth that the sherman may have been rubbish but we planned it that way. I doubt it was much of a relief to Sherman crews that their rides always started. More would be alive today if they had had breakdown rates like the Kitties did.


If that had been the case, the allies would have stalled at the Seine (or at any other defensible barrier, take your pick) in late summer 44. Prolonging the war and getting even more people killed in the proces.

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronDuke



Indeed, hence my inability to grasp why you defend substandard equipment (circa 1944) in such terms. We won the numbers game on the ground. I'm just saying it didn't have to be that way because it wasn't in other fields and one has to ask how the Germans lasted so long when the numbers game was so heavily against them, if not for that quality.

Regards,
IronDuke


"Quality" had very little to do with it. They won when driving MK III s and IVs and lost when driving Kats against essentially the same odds.

_____________________________

Ignoring the wulfir
Fighting the EUnuchs from within

(in reply to IronDuke_slith)
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