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- 8/27/2000 9:17:00 PM

Figmo

Posts: 556
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From: Pennsylvania, USA
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Claso, I'm not going let you lower me to your level - and there is no comparison - as much as you would like there to be - soooo - I'll make it as simple as I can. Bill explained the feature and then said: "4. A list of maps will appear. Now it won't appear until you have some maps with a text file for them, just like a scenario. " Please, explain to me how that is over hype!!! If you read the post with an open mind that is the main purpose of it!! Geez - you are the one that needs to get over yourself!! Figmo

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Post #: 31

- 8/28/2000 12:26:00 AM

Paul Vebber

Posts: 11430
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OK - Chill out the two of you. Claus - you obviously are here to promote SP Camo group or you would not have included the "comercial break". You are welcome to participate in the discussions, but must realize that you can't expect to "show your colors" one minute and then suddenly be the disspassionate observer the next. I think folks would much rather hear your insightful remarks on armor combat, than inciteful remarks about our choices in terms. Figmo - Claus has a good point that the ability to use custom maps has been in the game before. This is more of an enhancement of an existing feature. Please refrain from making this a personal issue about who has "high " oor "low" ground. We have an excellent record for maintaining a professional level of dicussion. Neither of you is scoring points lowering yourselves to bickering. Matrix has taken a very open policy with regard to the design and promotion of our games. Talking alot can have an upside and a downside. Ocassionally we get caught up in our own enthusiasm. If that comes off to some as "over -hype" well, guilty as charged, and our apologies. If folks want to troll for unofficial defense from our associates and fans to a fauz pas we make, to cram back down our throats (with a "commercial break" for a competing project), well we are all adult enough to see that for what it is. We will try not to leave ourselves open to allow that to happen, but we are human and will on occasion, and I'm sure we will be made to "pay for it" when we do... Such is life. One note though, the ONLY people on this forum that speak with the "Official voice" of Matrix games are myself and the forum moderators. So bottom line...yes the ability to use custom maps is not new, but that feature has been enhanced by allowing easier segregation and ID (through longer text names and a seperate storage folder). The fact that they can be made to work with custom start line and victory hex changes that "stick" makes them much more likely to be used. All together this makes using custom maps, with custom objectives and start lines much easier, and from the feedback we have gotten form playtesters, takes a little used feature and makes far more usable, perhaps not "revolutionary" - but that is in the eye of the beholder. Weigh an occasional semantic error with all that we have done and decide if this is mountain being made of a molehill or not.

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Post #: 32

- 8/28/2000 2:04:00 AM

Wild Bill

Posts: 6821
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It's quire clear to me Claus that you have come here to attack me and belittle me because of your affiliation with SPWW2 and the SP Camo Group. You guys and your friends have been doing that for a long time now. I've never done anything to any of you, but for some reason you guys have a real program going to attack me. This is nothing new. You're just an echo of other voices that have come before you. I'm surprised at you, however. I had a higher opinion of you than that. My mistake. You don't like me. SP-Camo Workshop does not like me. I'm sorry. So anything I say or do is immediately tainted because it comes from me. If it had come from Paul or Figmo probably nothing would have been said. But since I am the source, I am the target. But I'm used to it. Now, I'm wasting my time talking to you and I don't intend to get into an argument because it's quite evident that is what you want. So listen, because I'll only say it once. We have included what I consider a new feature, which is in a sense an enhancement of an old feature. Now if you want to compare "yours" to "mine," remember nearly everything in SPWW2 is an enhancement of what was already there. What was done was - (1) create a new filing system, a maps directory. That was not in SP or SPWW2 (2) Cause the custom maps program in the battle generator to look for maps in the maps directory. Now less clutter of files. (3) Provide a text file to describe the map before you even look at it so you have an idea of what it is and if it is appropriate to the battle you want to fight. Now you may say that all of this is old stuff, but you know what? I can't find it in any other version of Steel Panthers, not like this. Did I miss something? Of course you are going to write back attacking me again. That is the style of your group. But you know something? I don't have the time for this petty arguing and attacking. I have more positive things to do. Wild Bill ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games

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Post #: 33

- 8/28/2000 9:22:00 AM

Mike Wood

Posts: 2095
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From: Oakland, California
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Hello... No. Custom maps may be used in the editor or the random battle generator. They may not be used in the long World War II or the generated campaigns. Each of these use maps generated by the campaign code. Thnaks for Your Support... Michael Wood Lead Programmer, Matrix Games _________________________________________

quote:

Originally posted by Skotty: Can custom maps be used in generated and long campaigns????? Plz........

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Post #: 34

- 8/28/2000 3:10:00 PM

crazyivan

Posts: 189
Joined: 5/12/2000
From: New Zealand
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if you guys at matrix want to shout it out loud and dance around in your underwear in exitment over the new and revised features coming up in v3 then i'm all for it(actualy seeing your photos i think you should leave your cloths on

)i think what you have brought to us is new and exiting and i play all forms of sp right from the very first one.this spwaw is in my view the best of the best offering features no game comes close to macthing.so all i can say is YEEEEEHAAAAAA

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Post #: 35

- 8/29/2000 1:11:00 AM

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quote:

Originally posted by Wild Bill: It's quire clear to me Claus that you have come here to attack me and belittle me because of your affiliation with SPWW2 and the SP Camo Group. You guys and your friends have been doing that for a long time now. I've never done anything to any of you, but for some reason you guys have a real program going to attack me. This is nothing new. You're just an echo of other voices that have come before you.

I can see that sleeping on it did not help Figmo and it did certainly not help you. Yes, I added the little [Commercial Break] thing as a comment to those that think that random maps will always be dull. They need not be. How the hell was I going to make such a comment without mentioning the game? Furthermore it is no secret that I have playtested for SPWW2 V3 and I've said that openly here, there and everywhere. But that has absolutely nothing to do with this issue. There was a lot of things I could have taken up for discussion about SPW@W, things I like, things I hate, things that SPWW2 does better and viceversa. I have not, for the simple reason that I did not expect that such a discussion in this forum would be be productive. Well, I was right. Certain Matrix associates need to grow up quite a bit before this will be possible. WB, my intent was to clarify that some of what what you described as "new functions" were not in fact new. I did not comment on the parts of the new feature that was indeed new. Why should I, your comments on that were right. I would like to point out that I am NOT the one making a fuss here. All it would have taken was a simple, calm note a la Paul Vebbers correcting the errors made in Wild Bills statement, whether those errors were made by overenthusiasm or semantics. Or Wild Bill himself could have applied a clear view on what he wrote and posted a simple "Ooops

" instead of immidiatly seeing only an ugly SPWW3 Orch raising its head from the dark and sulphuric depths of SP-Camo Mordor. Now Paul V suggests that we discuss armour instead. Sounds nice, but how the hell would that be possible? The moment I would mention something that was not right in SPW@W, in a scenario or a MoB, I would have the two Hounds from Hell, Figmo and WBW in my throat, accusing me of belittling them, Matrix, SPW@W and what have you because I am in reality An Evil One from The Other Side. So, I am sorry Paul, I would actually like to discuss armour, penetration and similar stuff with you but that is clearly a non-starter. [Transforming into bat, sucking the blood of a virgin and in flying into obscurity]

Claus B

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Post #: 36

- 8/29/2000 3:57:00 AM

Fuerte

Posts: 314
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Just a quick note: I didn't find that [COMMERCIAL BREAK] disturbing at all, Claus did it right in my opinion. But then again I have had my own problems lately

, so I better shut up.

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Post #: 37

- 8/29/2000 5:22:00 AM

Tombstone

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My goodness. Well, no one can say that it was easy to use custom maps in the past. When I get spwaw 3.0 if it's easy to load up a custom map and play it without having to know the technical ins and outs of the SP engine then its fair to say its a new feature. Anyone whos tried knows its a pain in the ass... It looks like everyone is going a little nuts here though. Anyways, while making maps for SPWAW I was trying to come up with ways to configure the map to make the battles go one way or another. Things I came up with are the following: Its dangerous to have features that are to prominent -it'll set the mood and pace of the battle more than the opponents-, Making discreet areas of the map 'tank-safe' or not makes the plan and counter-plan a clearer game in the minds of the players, 'extra' roads that you put into the map can have a significant impact on the game-play so you should think carefully whenever you put down roads, and if you have water that can be forded you should mark it with text so that finding it is not a matter of luck and both players can plan with that data in mind. What are your guys' thoughts on this subject?? Tomo

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Post #: 38

- 8/29/2000 6:21:00 AM

Wild Bill

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A very good point and something that map designers should keep in mind. A balanced map is as important as a balanced scenario. Terrain plays a big role and it should be even handed for both sides. Nice post, Tomo! Wild Bill ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games

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Post #: 39

- 8/29/2000 7:23:00 AM

Figmo

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Very good point Tomo!! I'm not an expert on maps so I will keep it in mind. I guess one good thing is the ability to move the start lines - that makes many maps (especially mine) more usable!!

Figmo

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Post #: 40

- 8/29/2000 8:03:00 AM

Drake666

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Will when I design maps I always go with what looks nice and dont worry about the other things much. I always found that if you use a hictoric map as a guide you will more then likely end up with a nice looking map.

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Post #: 41

- 8/29/2000 8:26:00 AM

Figmo

Posts: 556
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Thanks Drake - that's good advice. It will be a lot easier now too - with older versions of SP - I had to fudge the maps for all kinds of reasons - but with Reinforcements and many of the feature in the game now - I won't have to do that.

Figmo

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Post #: 42

- 8/29/2000 12:14:00 PM

Paul Vebber

Posts: 11430
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I think a discussion of areas for improvement in the armor system could be done in a professional an unemotional manner, Claus. That you think otherwise is unfortunate.

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Post #: 43

- 8/29/2000 2:56:00 PM

Tombstone

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I agree that what looks like is the best bet for scenarios... but in maps set up for the express purpose of player to player combat I think more effort has to put toward balanced sides. (or not balanced if thats the intent.) My question is this, what effects do the map have on head to head play and what is the objective to achieve when creating these maps. Given those two (not so small) bits of information you can go about refining the process of making 'good' multi-player maps. Tomo

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Post #: 44

- 8/29/2000 7:06:00 PM

Drake666

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quote:

Originally posted by Tombstone: I agree that what looks like is the best bet for scenarios... but in maps set up for the express purpose of player to player combat I think more effort has to put toward balanced sides. (or not balanced if thats the intent.) My question is this, what effects do the map have on head to head play and what is the objective to achieve when creating these maps. Given those two (not so small) bits of information you can go about refining the process of making 'good' multi-player maps. Tomo

Yup, what you are saying is true and what I do when I make a map just for human play is along them lines. All you got to do is fallow a few things to make a map even for both players. 1. If you place one river put it on the center line. If you place two rivers place them evenly on both sides of the center line. 2. If you place a large town, place it so the town center is on the center line of the map. When you place small towns or large builds, try and include the same number on both sides of the center line and at about the same distance. 3. If you do one large hill, place it on the center line of the map. If you do a number of hills, try and include ones of equil importance on both sides of the center line. I followed them rules in making a few of my maps.

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Post #: 45

- 8/29/2000 8:32:00 PM

Figmo

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These are all great ideas but we should also keep in mind commanders don't always get to choose there terrain. I'm sure the Americans when they got into France would have loved to be able to hit a button and get out of those hedgerows!!

Figmo

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Post #: 46

- 8/29/2000 9:42:00 PM

Panther

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A feature that I like to put into Maps is some terrain benefits near the edges of the map. What I mean by that is putting roads parallel to the map edge maybe 3 to four hexes away. Or for example a hill that lets you over look part of that battle field. This allows for the map to be used to its fullness and draws out the cluster effect that tends to happen in the center of the map. Another feature that I like to use in map design is to limit the visibilty with obstacles (trees building elevation changes.) With the exeption of some areas of russia and eastern europe and in the dessert most of the time you will only be able to see a couple of hundred yards or less. That is 5 hexes or less. Make your roads somewhat wavy. With the exeption of some major highways many roads in europe used to follow old roman roads or tracks that developed over the years that followed the contour of the land rather than be precision engineered (especially in russia and eastern europe). And do not forget old fortifications and castles many of which had moats around them (good defensive position. Also enclude some large estates.

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Post #: 47

- 8/29/2000 11:20:00 PM

Larry Holt

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I've read that in the Soviet Union, most farming villages tended to be on high ground, hill tops or ridges. ------------------ An old soldier but not yet a faded one. OK, maybe just a bit faded.

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Post #: 48

- 8/30/2000 12:51:00 AM

Graf Speer

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"like water off a duck's back" - easy for a duck, but often harder for wargamers, yes?

) So, I applaud the forum host and moderators for restoring my faith in what it should mean to us to "host" and "moderate" forum discussion. There's nothing more regrettable to observe forum management where 'members' are not really permitted to express their god's-honest or aetheistic-invested opinions freely - whether they be blantly obvious, ignorant, brilliant, blind, or otherwise passionately held! So, my hat's off to our ubiquitous forum guys; I applaud the way this Forum continues to be handled! There is a higher ground to be gained in 'risking' contentious and challenging viewpoints. Albert p.s. Worthy of a postscript, I believe it should be acknowledged that CB 'slipped' in judgment mometarily when he turned a perfectly "cross all the T's and dot the i's" type of game-oriented argument into a less purposeful ad hominem 'stinger' when he said,

quote:

. . . the fact is that WBW screwed up

. Like I said, this was a slip up in my view. But, we are all still here. And I hold this forum fully accountable for such laudable conduct by its ubiquitous host and active and generously informative moderators . . . who I only hold with higher regard. Keep it up, guys! . . . like water off a duck's back!

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Post #: 49

- 8/30/2000 12:59:00 AM

Wild Bill

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Well said, GS! Thank you. You have a good analytical mind. And yes, there is freedom to express your views here. That is what makes a forum a fun place to be. Wild Bill ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games

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Post #: 50

- 8/30/2000 1:55:00 AM

Tombstone

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Is there a way to rate the tactical value of terrain? It would be nice to have asymetrical maps that were still balanced. Does better fields of fire balance out as long the opponent has one or two obstructed lanes of advance? Or is heavily wooded terrain balanced by rough uneven terrain? The more variation you have in the map the more the players have to use against each other. I'm fully on board for symetry as it is clearly fair, but is that ideal? I'm working on a map right now that has a big river bend in it. The infantry can cross it, but tanks would need barges. The bend occupies the northern-middle area. I'm trying to force some duel game to occur, where the mobile units fight for position around the bend while the infantr you choose to send across the river has to fight with whatever the opponent sends across... Tomo

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Post #: 51

- 8/30/2000 3:16:00 AM

Wild Bill

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Tomo, it's largely a matter of feel and practice more than hard rules. As you design scenarios and maps more and more, you'll begin to recognize those kind of setups immediately. Putting some units on the map and testing it wouldn't be a bad idea either. Wild Bill ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games

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Post #: 52

- 8/30/2000 4:26:00 AM

Drake666

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Is there a way to rate the tactical value of terrain? Nope, got to do it by feal. It would be nice to have asymetrical maps that were still balanced. Does better fields of fire balance out as long the opponent has one or two obstructed lanes of advance?Or is heavily wooded terrain balanced by rough uneven terrain? The more variation you have in the map the more the players have to use against each other. Their is no way to have a asymetrical map really balanced, but you got to remember that asymetrical maps are good if people want to use it for a delay or defind battles, were symetry is not imported. Symetrical maps are more for meeting engagements and dont work to will in the other two kinds of battles. I'm fully on board for symetry as it is clearly fair, but is that ideal? Like above, it all depinds on the type of engagement. I'm working on a map right now that has a big river bend in it. The infantry can cross it, but tanks would need barges. The bend occupies the northern-middle area. I'm trying to force some duel game to occur, where the mobile units fight for position around the bend while the infantry you choose to send across the river has to fight with whatever the opponent sends across... Good idea if your planning on useing the map for a scenario, but if its for people to use in their random battles you got to remember that its inpossable to force players to do anything. Weapons and tactics you might use is not what someone els would do. If I had to fight a meeting engegement on a map with a large river with no bredges, I would setup a defince and not even try and cross the river. If my oppanent then try and cross he would be reeped to peaces.

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Post #: 53

- 8/30/2000 4:43:00 AM

Tombstone

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Good idea if your planning on useing the map for a scenario, but if its for people to use in their random battles you got to remember that its inpossable to force players to do anything. Weapons and tactics you might use is not what someone els would do. If I had to fight a meeting engegement on a map with a large river with no bredges, I would setup a defince and not even try and cross the river. If my oppanent then try and cross he would be reeped to peaces. I disagree, I think you can force the players to do things. They want to win, so if you make the conditions of the scenario such that there are clear options that relate directly toward the objective hexes then the player will choose one. This river bend makes a U shape that cuts a large part of the map away from both players. Many of the objectives are on that cut away portion of land... Tomo

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Post #: 54

- 9/5/2000 10:35:00 PM

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quote:

Originally posted by Paul Vebber: I think a discussion of areas for improvement in the armor system could be done in a professional an unemotional manner, Claus. That you think otherwise is unfortunate.

Well, I tried commenting on a rather badly worded post by Wild Bill and on the fact that random terrain can be made both challenging and varied. Neither comment was a criticism of SPW@W or any of its features. Still I had two Matrix employees in my throat in no time. Regarding the "unemotional" bit, take a look at WBWs August 27, 2000 03:04 PM post - you call that "unemotional"? The guy is clearly incapable of handling criticism. A discussion of the armour system in SPW@W will of course have to touch upon good things and bad things and while I am shure that Matrix will happily suck up any positive comments, a critical comment from someone who has playtested for "the other game" is clearly NOT welcome. "Unemotional" discussion about SPW@W features between yours truly and Matrix employees is not something that I "think" is impossible - it is proven impossible by the emotional and rabid outbursts by Matrix employees against justified and mildly worded criticism of your promotional efforts (WBWs original post). So if you want to have a real discussion of SPW@W features, you have to persuade Matrix not to unleash the dogs on anyone associated with "the other game". Claus B

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Post #: 55

- 9/5/2000 11:10:00 PM

David Heath

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Claus your statement is just untrue and an attack! Its actions like this that cause us to quit SPWW2. Anyone can is welcomed to comment or dislike anything on this forum or SPWaW. Many of our changes have been because of what the gamers have said they disliked about the game or their new ideas. Matrix Games has been one of the most "Listen To The People" companies in a long time. The problem Claus is that its the same idea of having a SSI staff member go over to the Talonsoft message board and leave messages blasting one of it games. We have do very well with supporting SPWaW and the gamers who play our games. SPWaW has done 57,000+ downloads and SPWW2 less then a 1,000. This does not mean SPWW2 is bad game but I can see the staff of the game getting a little short temper with us. Gamers I am sorry you had to put up with these type of messges. We try to delete only the truly of the wall posts. We want you to please feel free to say and write anything you want about our games. We are listing and we do care. I hope our games and the valid posts on this forum shows this. We take this type of attack by Claus very personally and will not stand for someone bending the truth. We do like to hear good words over bad about our game, who wouldn't. But we also like to take the bad comments and try to turn them around into good comments by either fixing the problem or making a new feature. Now back to what Matrix Games is all about....... gaming! [This message has been edited by David Heath (edited September 05, 2000).]

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Post #: 56

- 9/6/2000 2:06:00 AM

sami heimola

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Well said, David! I play both games (SPWAW and SPWW2v3) and I love them. It's sad that some SP-players/makers/testers(Claus for example :mad:) want to defame every way Matrix's staff and games. It's so unfair.Is it Matrix's fault if SPWW2v3 was been downloaded only 1000 times (or lesser)? I don't think so. And either anyone else in this Forum, I suppose? I can't ever stop to wonder that "we vs them"-thing... Only God knows how great wargames we have if all SP-teams/companies could be in co-operation... Anyway, you and Matrix's guys are kings of wargaming. It's a fact! Don't take those childish comments TOO seriously (at least let them affect to your creativity)! BTW, what's a situation of V.4? Tomorrow or later? Sami

quote:

Originally posted by David Heath: Claus your statement is just untrue! Its actions like this that cause us to quit SPWW2. Anyone can is welcomed to comment or dislike anything on this forum even SPWaW. Many of our changes have been because of what you the gamers have said they disliked about the game. Matrix Games has been one of the most "Listen To The People" companies in a long time. The problem Claus is that its like having a SSI staff member go over to the Talonsoft message board and leave messages blasting one of it games. We have do very well with supporting SPWaW and the gamers who play our games. SPWaW has done 57,000+ downloads and SPWW2 less then a 1,000. This does not mean SPWW2 is bad but can make the staff of the game a little short. What it also shows is that your statement is untrue and attack at us. Gamers I am sorry you had to put up with this type of messges. We try to delete only truly of the wall posts. We want you to please feel free to say and write anything you want about our games we are listing and we do care. The changes you see in our games and our support will show this. We take this type of attack by Claus very personally. We do like to hear good words over bad about our game, who wouldn't. But we also like to take the bad comments and try to turn them around into a good comment by fixing the problem or making a new feature. Now back to what Matrix Games is all about....... gaming!

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Post #: 57

- 9/6/2000 2:18:00 AM

Nikademus

Posts: 25684
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well for me its a new feature.....i tried once to load a custom map for a generated battle and found myself tech challenged for the incidient so kudios to the Matrix team for making it more easy to access and i had till now never heard of a way to do it during a campaign!

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Post #: 58

- 9/6/2000 2:39:00 AM

Tombstone

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From: Los Angeles, California
Status: offline

1000 times? That's a tragedy, there simply needs to be more awareness of SPWW2 ver3. Its a very good game. Something people should bear in mind is that this is the SPWAW forum... its madness to think that this will NOT be a SPWAW-centric zone. It doesn't take much to get people defensive about what they're passionate about... If one's aim was to convince or educate then it would be especially important to be delicate and civil when walking on their territory. That is, of course, only relevant if one's aim was to have a real effect... Anyways, I'm getting really anxious to get v4... My whole SPWAW effort has been shipwrecked on the island of 'soon it will be better' What exactly are the rules with respect to the boulder hexes?? Tomo

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(in reply to Wild Bill)

Post #: 59

- 9/6/2000 2:57:00 AM

McGib

Posts: 395
Joined: 6/26/2000
From: Ontario Canada
Status: offline

Don't apologize for the posts David. They are not the fault of Matrix. This type of thing (IMHO)have a positive benefit; they let people, vets and newbies, who come to this forum that negative posts are ok. By that I mean posts on how to improve the game, bug reports, requests for additions etc etc. They don't include posts that are attacks at the game, the company or its staff. ------------------ McGib Ready Aye Ready

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Ready Aye Ready

(in reply to Wild Bill)

Post #: 60