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RE: Questions from someone considering buying.. - 3/14/2007 8:03:44 AM   
cdbeck


Posts: 1374
Joined: 8/16/2005
From: Indiana
Status: offline 		Hey FredK, good to see you over here!

I had a question for you all, how does War Plan Orange stack up? I NEVER hear anybody talk about it (is this a bad thing)? I like that time period and it seem to be a nice idea, anyway.

I don't own WiTP, but I do own its little bro UV. I'm still trying to learn it (I'm not sure that I agree with this "anybody can learn" idea). It is not so much the interface (although trying to figure out what the heck all the different settings mean is something that I could use help with) it is the general strategy and specific unit tactics that I have problems with. The AAR read a bit like radio manuals to me. Any starter's guides?

And Terminus, despite the fact that your posts are steeped in acrimony... that avatar of Calvin's father generally evokes a certain voice in my head that makes everything you say seem like "fatherly advice" (or at least the dubious advice Calvin's father gives him).

Son of Montfort

_____________________________

"Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoscet!"
(Kill them all. God will know his own.)

-- Arnaud-Armaury, the Albigensian Crusade

(in reply to MineSweeper)
Post #: 31
RE: Questions from someone considering buying.. - 3/14/2007 8:39:43 AM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline 		War Plan Orange plays through much more quickly since there isn't a ton of aircraft out searching. I can play through a week of WPO turns in the time it takes to play one WITP turn. WPO will make you better at handling surface combat task forces (figuring out how to put them where they will actually intercept the enemy), but - in the early going at least - there are a lot of turns where nothing happens at all.

UV also plays a lot more quickly than WITP, because there is so much less involved. It is a good way to get used to the business of WITP, as the campaign area is concentrated to the point that you will have carrier combat sooner than later...

I love all three games, WITP most of all. Since I finally took on a PBEM in WITP, I have been alternating between WPO and UV for my game playing while waiting for my PBEM turns to arrive. When I find myself trying to scroll beyond the edges of the UV map, I switch to WPO. When WPO starts to seem like a whole lot of nothing (the AI is very conservative, apparently), I switch back to UV.

_____________________________

fair winds,
Brad

(in reply to cdbeck)
Post #: 32
RE: Questions from someone considering buying.. - 3/14/2007 11:34:49 AM   
Reg


Posts: 2787
Joined: 5/26/2000
From: NSW, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fredk
Still a bit disappointed that you can't really expect the Japanese player to win though, seems like it would take a bit of fun out of the PBEM games.


Depends on whether you mean winning the game or winning the war. I don't think there is anyone out there (with the benefit of 20/20 hind sight) that will say that the Japanese ever stood a chance in real life. Not the way it was fought anyway!!

_____________________________

Cheers,
Reg.

(One day I will learn to spell - or check before posting....)
Uh oh, Firefox has a spell checker!! What excuse can I use now!!!

(in reply to Fredk)
Post #: 33
RE: Questions from someone considering buying.. - 3/14/2007 1:41:15 PM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Reg


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fredk
Still a bit disappointed that you can't really expect the Japanese player to win though, seems like it would take a bit of fun out of the PBEM games.


Depends on whether you mean winning the game or winning the war. I don't think there is anyone out there (with the benefit of 20/20 hind sight) that will say that the Japanese ever stood a chance in real life. Not the way it was fought anyway!!


I agree..If Yamamoto himself had major misgivings prior to Pearl Harbor, IF the Allies were still committed, then one might suspect a certain historical path might be followed?
If failing to attain a certain "victory" is a disappointment, the Japanese player still won't see that for maybe 18-24 months of real-time, (allowing for bathroom breaks, tending to the spouse/neighbor,etc, and eating).
Still more time involved in this game than reading WAR AND PEACE...
Too, it will give one the "ticket to ride" this great forum and meet very interesting people, (and a couple 'o "neer-do-wells").


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(in reply to Reg)
Post #: 34
RE: Questions from someone considering buying.. - 3/14/2007 1:57:16 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Wow! What do you have to do to get her to do that?


Well...even 10% of attention towards wifey pays 100% back... Women like to be appreciated and not ignored. Thus, if you treat one right, she tends to be very nice when you want time of your own... One-syllable answers to questions and not enuff cuddles tend to get you very peeved wifey. Every wife/gf carries an invisible trashcan with them where they store all the insults & hurts (real or imaginary)..and when it gets full they empty it on you... So it's better to be nice than sorry...leaves more time for gaming too...door swings both ways, so to say....

OK, end of "Sardaukar's Lesson 1 for those planning to live with a woman".

_____________________________

"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülov, 1870-


(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 35
RE: Questions from someone considering buying.. - 3/14/2007 4:46:56 PM   
Fredk

 

Posts: 75
Joined: 3/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

I agree..If Yamamoto himself had major misgivings prior to Pearl Harbor, IF the Allies were still committed, then one might suspect a certain historical path might be followed?
If failing to attain a certain "victory" is a disappointment, the Japanese player still won't see that for maybe 18-24 months of real-time, (allowing for bathroom breaks, tending to the spouse/neighbor,etc, and eating).


Haha, well, some people earlier in the thread explained how the 'victory' system works and, like  I said earlier in the thread, if you want to stay true to the logistics of the historical campaign of course there is no way the Japanese are going to 'win'. Just curious if it is possible in a game between roughly equal opponents for the japanese player to force a "draw" via the victory system?

(in reply to Sardaukar)
Post #: 36
RE: Questions from someone considering buying.. - 3/14/2007 7:19:26 PM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fredk

quote:

I agree..If Yamamoto himself had major misgivings prior to Pearl Harbor, IF the Allies were still committed, then one might suspect a certain historical path might be followed?
If failing to attain a certain "victory" is a disappointment, the Japanese player still won't see that for maybe 18-24 months of real-time, (allowing for bathroom breaks, tending to the spouse/neighbor,etc, and eating).


Haha, well, some people earlier in the thread explained how the 'victory' system works and, like  I said earlier in the thread, if you want to stay true to the logistics of the historical campaign of course there is no way the Japanese are going to 'win'. Just curious if it is possible in a game between roughly equal opponents for the japanese player to force a "draw" via the victory system?




Yes....Several longtime forum members have reportedly done it..


< Message edited by m10bob -- 3/14/2007 7:37:20 PM >

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(in reply to Fredk)
Post #: 37
RE: Questions from someone considering buying.. - 3/15/2007 3:44:35 AM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Reg
Depends on whether you mean winning the game or winning the war. I don't think there is anyone out there (with the benefit of 20/20 hind sight) that will say that the Japanese ever stood a chance in real life. Not the way it was fought anyway!!


Even the most optimistic of Japan's leaders never expected to conquer the US. They mistakenly believed that if they hit the US Pacific forces hard enough, the US would roll over and give up. To an outsider, unfamiliar with the American psyche, it makes sense. The issolationists were a very strong force in American politics in the 30s.

The Japanese were trying to force the issolationsists into predominance. Their plan backfired completely because they didn't fundamentally understand the American psyche. If they had bothered to study the causes of the Spanish American War they might have reconsidered.

Japan just doesn't have a large enough popuation to take large swaths of territory. Their control in China was tenuous because they didn't have enough troops to cover everything. I couldn't find any population statistics online, but I have an atlas of WW II with mobilization numbers:
China 5 million
US 11.49 million
Australia 680,000
India 2.4 million
New Zealand 150,000
UK 4.6 million

Japan 7.4 million

China and India's troops were generally low quality and the US and UK deployed the majority of their troops in Europe. However, the Allies had a lot of warm bodies with guns. That's before taking into account that the US was producing 50% of the world's manufactured goods in 1940 and that grew during the war.

It also doesn't take into account the Soviet Union and the threat they posed to Manchuko. The Japanese fought the Soviets in a short war in 1940 and the Red Army of the period, who lost to Finland in the Winter War, got the upper hand against Japan fairly quickly. I have heard it said that the biggest concern Japan had in August 1945 was not US nuclear weapons, but the Soviets who had just jumped into the war.

A game that would give Japan a chance to dominate the entire map covered by WitP would be very unrealistic. The Germans and the Japanese took virtually all their territory early when the Allies were unprepared for defense. After the Allies got organized and got war production going, it wasn't a fair fight. The war went on as long as it did because the Axis powers had stubborn leadership and they played defense well.

Churchill's first comment upon hearing of Pearl Harbor was, "so we have won after all."

Bill

_____________________________

WitP AE - Test team lead, programmer

(in reply to Reg)
Post #: 38
RE: Questions from someone considering buying.. - 3/15/2007 4:55:58 AM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar
Well...even 10% of attention towards wifey pays 100% back... Women like to be appreciated and not ignored. Thus, if you treat one right, she tends to be very nice when you want time of your own... One-syllable answers to questions and not enuff cuddles tend to get you very peeved wifey. Every wife/gf carries an invisible trashcan with them where they store all the insults & hurts (real or imaginary)..and when it gets full they empty it on you... So it's better to be nice than sorry...leaves more time for gaming too...door swings both ways, so to say....

OK, end of "Sardaukar's Lesson 1 for those planning to live with a woman".


Believe it or not, my So doesn't store up stuff. She says it takes too much work to remain angry. She does get upset with me once in a while (no relationship is perfect 24/7), but she never remembers the next day.

She does have a minimum quota for attention though. One requirement is to hang out after dinner for a while. I don't have to be paying her 100% attention, but she wants me there. She discovered Shockwave games about 2 months ago and has been playing those like mad. I've discovered that she's perfectly happy if I'm playing WitP on one laptop while she's playing her Shockwave games on hers. While the computer is processing my turn, I can lean over and help her with her game, which she appreciates. She also likes to get through a game as fast as possible.

It also helps that we are in very close agreement on all major issues: money, family, etc. That starts off with a solid foundation.

Need to run off to Home Depot with the SO for a project she's working on...

Bill

_____________________________

WitP AE - Test team lead, programmer

(in reply to Sardaukar)
Post #: 39
RE: Questions from someone considering buying.. - 3/22/2007 8:02:56 AM   
Fredk

 

Posts: 75
Joined: 3/4/2007
Status: offline 		Well folks, I just wanted to come back and thank everyone for their excellent input on this thread.

Sadly, I think I'll have to pass on WitP as the moment, more due to my personality than anything else. When I experience bugs that are relatively obvious (on the level of the leader/replay, etc. bugs) they tend to ruin the game for me - even if i'm enjoying it. I hope that makes sense. If anybody has playing the Football Manager (WWSM in N. America) series I it is a good analogy - I have a lot of fun playing the game and the bugs aren't really show stoppers but the nagging feeling that something isn't quite right under the hood tends to make me quit playing.

In any case, I'd like to congratulate the designers/programmers on their ambition to create such an epic game and the player base on both its passions for gaming and history. Maybe if hte WitP "Deluxe" idea that was muted in a thread comes about or there is a major patch I'll come back to it. The concept is certainly one of the most fascinating I've run across. Also I'm sure I'll drop by from time to time to enjoy the bizarre off topic offerings of the WitP crew!  

(in reply to wdolson)
Post #: 40
RE: Questions from someone considering buying.. - 3/22/2007 8:55:46 AM   
Charles2222


Posts: 3993
Joined: 3/12/2001
Status: offline 		Congratulations on not falling into the popular thing to do, as you are going to have to live with your decision afterall. I have it but I haven't played it more than 40 hours or so. It's just that there is so much wrong with it, that I can't possibly take it seriously at this point. I keep hoping that a patch will come out that will clear maybe a couple of the major problems, like the old ASW problem was cleared, and then I will probably dive in.

(in reply to Fredk)
Post #: 41
RE: Questions from someone considering buying.. - 3/22/2007 7:26:50 PM   
Dino


Posts: 1032
Joined: 11/14/2005
From: Serbia
Status: offline
quote:

<snip>...the nagging feeling that something isn't quite right under the hood tends to make me quit playing.


I wouldn't hold my breath for a bug-free game of this complexity.

As far as WitP is concerned, you can look at it this way: In real war there is always something that isn't quite right under the hood.

(in reply to Fredk)
Post #: 42
RE: Questions from someone considering buying.. - 3/22/2007 8:22:32 PM   
Fredk

 

Posts: 75
Joined: 3/4/2007
Status: offline 		Yeah, I'm not holding my breath at all - I would just like the bugs to be a bit more concealed so I don't notice them and get paranoid.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dino

quote:

<snip>...the nagging feeling that something isn't quite right under the hood tends to make me quit playing.


I wouldn't hold my breath for a bug-free game of this complexity.

As far as WitP is concerned, you can look at it this way: In real war there is always something that isn't quite right under the hood.


quote:

I wouldn't hold my breath for a bug-free game of this complexity.

(in reply to Dino)
Post #: 43
RE: Questions from someone considering buying.. - 3/22/2007 8:34:14 PM   
Dino


Posts: 1032
Joined: 11/14/2005
From: Serbia
Status: offline
quote:

Yeah, I'm not holding my breath at all - I would just like the bugs to be a bit more concealed so I don't notice them and get paranoid.


The alternative is to get used to them and treat them as pets.

(in reply to Fredk)
Post #: 44
RE: Questions from someone considering buying.. - 3/22/2007 8:39:49 PM   
Zakhal


Posts: 2494
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Jyväskylä, Finland
Status: offline 		You might wanna try war plan orange first. Its easier to get into (and happens in timescale before witp even) and after you have played it through you can continue the pacific war in witp. If you have an itch for pacific and football-manager-stylish matches/battles where you "watch" the match/battle happen then these games are a MUST to buy. You will experience laugh, cry, sorrow, etc.

< Message edited by Zakhal -- 3/22/2007 8:50:20 PM >

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"99.9% of all internet arguments are due to people not understanding someone else's point. The other 0.1% is arguing over made up statistics."- unknown poster
"Those who dont read history are destined to repeat it."– Edmund Burke

(in reply to Dino)
Post #: 45
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