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RE: Europe map? - 4/8/2007 6:19:13 PM

ptey

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Yes, that was ofcourse also what i meant. Its clear that the no bess gambit doesnt become better. Its the penalty when not doing it that becomes bigger.

(in reply to c92nichj)

Post #: 121

RE: Europe map? - 4/8/2007 7:07:38 PM

c92nichj

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Not that I disagree with you, as I think the game is not balanced and needs Russia to be stronger (and France weaker).

But if your aim with MWIF is to keep the same balance as in WIF, which I think is the case. To change the map and add another city to bessarbia is pro-allied, your suggesting to remove the option for the axis to go with the no-bessrbia gambit will make the game further pro-allied.

So instead of one pro-allied change you will introduce two pro-allied changes, which would make the game differently balanced from paperboard WIF, which might or might not be intended.

(in reply to ptey)

Post #: 122

RE: Europe map? - 4/8/2007 9:52:28 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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What is the "No Beassarabia Gambit"?

_____________________________

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Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 123

RE: Europe map? - 4/8/2007 11:22:15 PM

ptey

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The no bess gambit, is Germany declaring war on yugo in the second axis impulse in SO 39, and then aligning Rumania. USSR cannot claim bess before the 2nd allied impulse, but at that point Rumania is already aligned to Germany.
So Germany prevents USSR of getting Bessarabia and can start his barb from there. A very good strategy if you are going for an all out barb.

Its true that disallowing it is pro allied, but im not sure it was ever intended to be possible.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 124

RE: Europe map? - 4/9/2007 1:43:18 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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Thanks.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 125

RE: Europe map? - 4/10/2007 7:49:14 AM

trees

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To Bessarabia or not to Bessarabia is fun to discuss but the only final difference to me seems to be a choice for the Russian player whether with Bessarabia in their control if they want to waste a unit to get the factory out of Odessa or not. (an easy choice if you ask me, but then you are quickly in hot water trying to save the next threatened factory but then that is how Barbarossa '41 works). As Germany I like 'No Bessarabia' to get the blue Rumanian factory working and two easily snatched Yugoslavian resources. I might even try it without adding the Hungarians and thus losing another Russian resource but this is slower. The hardest part is possibly the short-term cut into Italy's oil supply. The flip side is with Rumania activated the Russians can stuff the border with ease. As Russia I might or might not even demand Bessarabia but in general lately I think I would as standard operating procedure. I don't think adding those two hexes to Bessarabia or the whole 'No Bessarabia' 'gambit' has a very big influence on the balance of WiF. Whether Russia survives Barbarossa comes down to your skill manuevering the cardboard pieces.

But I do very much like the idea of Harry working on some map edits.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 126

RE: Europe map? - 4/10/2007 3:29:16 PM

c92nichj

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Playing with suprised Zoc (which I don't really like) and Bessarbia in German hands Dnepr is crossed during the suprise impulse.
That is not insignificant.
It is not an uncommon strategy to try to hold Dnepr during the first turn and abandon it during the second trun. letting Germany come across during the first impulse gives him a lot more time during summer which could make or brake it.

That I wouldn't defend the Dnepr anyhow as Russia is a different point but it denies me the option of doing so.

(in reply to trees)

Post #: 127

RE: Europe map? - 4/10/2007 9:46:56 PM

ptey

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When you look at a change like this, you must naturally asume good and equally competent play on both sides. Saying that "its how you move your counters that matter" is imo not an argument.

To me atleast, it seems that the gain of a (homecountry) city for Russia on the Rumanien border isnt completely negliable. If say, the germans attack in good weather from rumania you can make them lose almost one impulse of advancing at the cost of one (additional) garr. If they attack in bad weather in early spring, they will be doing less stuff elsewhere and russia will have her reserves ready when good weather comes.

Anyway, my biggest problem with this change, is that it will imo make it hard to argue for any other balkan strategy than the no bess gambit (when doing a 41 barb). Something that reduces replayability and in time will make the game more boring.
This was also why i tried to argue for removing the no bess gambit. Since it together with this change most likely will help to reduce the chance of russia getting blown out in those "kitchen sink" barbs. But its true that it might be a good idea to give the axis something in return. Since removing the no bess gambit will make a 41 barb slightly less attractive, it will also make 41 med - 42 barb more attractive (which, i think, by many is already considered the axis best bet to win). So to compensate for adding the extra city to bessarabia and removing the no bess gambit the wallies should probably be slightly weakened.

(in reply to c92nichj)

Post #: 128

RE: Europe map? - 4/10/2007 10:12:21 PM

Froonp

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ptey, I brang your issue with the no bess gambit to Harry and the playtest group of Harry. Possible solutions include allowing the Russian to claim Bessarabia in his first impulse of the game if he wants (RAW7 currently interdicts this), allowing the Russian to claim Bessarabia even if Rumania is no more neutral...
Nethertheless, real 40s geography was like this, Cernauti was in Bessarabia.

(in reply to ptey)

Post #: 129

RE: Europe map? - 4/10/2007 10:21:56 PM

ptey

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Great. Dont get me wrong, i fully support making the map as geographically accurate as possible.

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Post #: 130

RE: Europe map? - 4/11/2007 3:17:16 AM

trees

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I just don't think adding a city there makes too big of a difference, and I am assuming equal play. The Germans can't always get enough good stuff into Rumania on time, particularly if France is played well and they are trying to save their O-Chits for Russia, and also if RaW oil is being played. The main German group will still be coming through the Lvov area, where they will lose an impulse to the 2-1 GARR which heads off to the scrap pile. The Germans can clean up Lvov in bad weather with no change to Russian production, but Cernauti and Chisinau they cannot. And if they are already in Lvov, they don't need to bother with Cernauti and the Russians have to figure out how to get Kiev _and_ Odessa out in time. Bessarabia is about one factory, Odessa. Like c92nichj says, the Dnepr is just for show in 1941; even in 1942 a strong Dnepr will just lead to an attack weighted in the north to outflank it. (I can't comment on a no-ZoC-on-surprise game, though perhaps I should try one to see if that helps the Axis get to a high enough high water mark to survive the Jolly Green Giant at the end of the game.) The critical area for Barbarossa is around and just past the factory line. If Russia gets their factories to Siberia without throwing too many units away, they survive. If they lose too many factories, they die, and if they lose too many units getting the factories out, the Germans reach the factories' new locations. Whether they lose a unit in Cernauti is not too big a change. The Germans temporarily lose a MIL while the Russians have Cernauti though so I like taking Bessarabia a tiny bit more with this change as the Russians. If the Germans try 'No Bessarabia' the Russians are rewarded with a very simple option to not allow Barbarossa 41 to even start.

(in reply to ptey)

Post #: 131

RE: Europe map? - 4/11/2007 4:21:04 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: trees
I just don't think adding a city there makes too big of a difference, and I am assuming equal play. The Germans can't always get enough good stuff into Rumania on time, particularly if France is played well and they are trying to save their O-Chits for Russia, and also if RaW oil is being played. The main German group will still be coming through the Lvov area, where they will lose an impulse to the 2-1 GARR which heads off to the scrap pile. The Germans can clean up Lvov in bad weather with no change to Russian production, but Cernauti and Chisinau they cannot. And if they are already in Lvov, they don't need to bother with Cernauti and the Russians have to figure out how to get Kiev _and_ Odessa out in time. Bessarabia is about one factory, Odessa. Like c92nichj says, the Dnepr is just for show in 1941; even in 1942 a strong Dnepr will just lead to an attack weighted in the north to outflank it. (I can't comment on a no-ZoC-on-surprise game, though perhaps I should try one to see if that helps the Axis get to a high enough high water mark to survive the Jolly Green Giant at the end of the game.) The critical area for Barbarossa is around and just past the factory line. If Russia gets their factories to Siberia without throwing too many units away, they survive. If they lose too many factories, they die, and if they lose too many units getting the factories out, the Germans reach the factories' new locations. Whether they lose a unit in Cernauti is not too big a change. The Germans temporarily lose a MIL while the Russians have Cernauti though so I like taking Bessarabia a tiny bit more with this change as the Russians. If the Germans try 'No Bessarabia' the Russians are rewarded with a very simple option to not allow Barbarossa 41 to even start.

Why is that so?

_____________________________

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(in reply to trees)

Post #: 132

RE: Europe map? - 4/11/2007 5:52:54 AM

trees

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really if you do the math I think Russia can just about always prevent Barbarossa in the summer of 1941. some would dispute this (and this has come up in a few other threads) but I just think they aren't quite brave enough to do it. Russia can build a garrison-ratio-efficient-force easier than Germany can; if they put pilots in every old plane they can the numbers grow even faster. For Germany to maximize they have to completely forget the Kriegsmarine, not send anything to the Med, garrison defeated France weakly, and hope to not take many casualties there. That's a lot of things to ignore to load up the kitchen sink Barbarossa, and the CW will be grinning. [though the Balkan Axis allies do help the Axis math, Tito will have an affect on it too]. Russia only has to be willing to perhaps cede Siberia to Japan (and only needs to withdraw in the fall of 1940), and forgo Persia, which has some nice benefits in the US entry reaching levels 19 and 30 sooner. May/Jun is just about for sure, barring weird chit draws (and ADG just released new counters raising the average chit values so this is even easier). Jul/Aug is also somewhat certain. Sep/Oct and Nov/Dec are perhaps past the tipping point, but the danger is somewhat past as the chances of clear weather decrease rapidly, and the CW is perhaps knocking on the doors of Tripoli while the Wehrmacht, the most potent military force on the map in 1941, spins it's wheels on manuevers in Poland. When Germany goes with 'No Bessarabia', large parts of the Ukraine are now within three hexes of Axis territory and it is far simpler to 'stuff' the border, requiring fewer land moves a shorter distance from Mother Russia; actually the border zone is inside Mother Russia. If Uncle Joe gets nervous during a sunny September 1941 and wants to fold, his five best T-34 corps can easily escape to the hinterlands outside of Stuka range. Perhaps the infantry mass in the front ranks get to experience what the CGI Orcs did in front of Minas Tirith as the Rohirrim scream "Death", but it's not as terrible as the Red Army stuck in eastern Poland getting to experience what the bluecoats did in "The Crater" outside of Petersburg, as seen in 'Cold Mountain'. And even if Stalin packs it in and the Stukas are unleashed in August or September, they don't have as much time to flip counters over as the rain clouds approach, and Russian rear-area HQs hiding behind Dnepropetrovsk perhaps have a better chance to reorganize some so more can escape than can from advanced positions in Poland, as again if May/Jun has been lost to the Germans, and perhaps at least an impulse or two of Jul/Aug as reinforcements walk/rebase into the border zone, they can do less damage to the Red Army mass in the Ukraine and the good parts can escape from the third line. I'm not sure I always want to stuff the border in 1941, there are some advantages to the Allies in drawing the Germans in to this strategy if the Russian player is confident they can survive, but when Germany activates Rumania on impulse 2 it gets so much easier that I would have STAVKA weigh the new options more carefully.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 133

RE: Europe map? - 4/11/2007 8:06:14 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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Thanks.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to trees)

Post #: 134

RE: Europe map? - 4/11/2007 12:59:24 PM

ptey

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From my experience, stuffing hardly seems like a sure thing. First its fairly dependent on the options you play with (city based volunteers, oil and others). Then there is the chit draw.
If you have the math that you have done in a form that can be presented here, i would be very interested in seeing it.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 135

RE: Europe map? - 4/12/2007 8:27:28 AM

paulderynck

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I've been collecting the info and been planning on doing this analysis for some time now. It will be in an excel spreadsheet and I'll present it here when it is done.

However, I lack a good list of the city based volunteers and the options that allow them to be in the game. I'm not so sure the oil is that big of a variable. My experience has been the Germans can build max each turn early game and still save a bit of an oil reserve for Barb. Meanwhile Russia can only save one oil a turn while neutral.

A bigger variable might be Italy entering the war early and giving a bunch of BPs to Germany over the course of a year. Mind you they should really pay in the med if they did that.

(in reply to ptey)

Post #: 136

RE: Europe map? - 4/12/2007 5:06:42 PM

composer99

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It's not that easy for CW to really take it to Italy in 1940 (except perhaps relieving the Italians of their African possessions) - they don't have Marines or amphibs yet.

But an Italy that lends all its production to Germany is asking to be beaten up in '41-'42.

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Post #: 137

RE: Europe map? - 4/14/2007 12:51:10 AM

trees

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I made up a spreadsheet once but not a lot of internet time right now....

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Post #: 138

RE: Europe map? - 4/15/2007 7:36:18 PM

Gendarme

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Just noticed a few things --

There's a red line between Northern Ireland/Belfast and the rest of Great Britain. Don't know if it was there on the WIFFE maps or if it should be there, since Northern Ireland was meant to still be part of the Home Country of the CW.

Orkney Islands have (Gbr) showing ownership, maybe should be changed to (CW)?

Lastly, where the northern tip of Corsica is, the island between Corsica and Italy which I believe is Elba was owned by Italy yet the map shows it as part of Corsica-France. Maybe the island of Elba (which was Napoleon's first place of exile as we all know) should be moved over to the hex adjacent to the Italian coast there, or move that part of Corsica out of the same hex with Elba? I know that would be un-WIFFE, so I don't know what to do about that one.

But these are minor points that make no difference in game play. I mean, when will anyone use Elba for anything?

Again, these maps are terrific in every way and I eagerly look forward to paper versions, to tide us over until Matrix Wif hits the shelves.

Anthony DeChristopher

(in reply to Gendarme)

Post #: 139

RE: Europe map? - 4/15/2007 11:00:25 PM

Froonp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gendarme
There's a red line between Northern Ireland/Belfast and the rest of Great Britain. Don't know if it was there on the WIFFE maps or if it should be there, since Northern Ireland was meant to still be part of the Home Country of the CW.

This must be a line showing the limits of Northern Ireland. AS far as I can see in the game, it is treated as being the UK.

quote:

Orkney Islands have (Gbr) showing ownership, maybe should be changed to (CW)?

No, because the Orkney Islands are part of the UK, Great Britain, abbreviated Gbr.

quote:

Again, these maps are terrific in every way and I eagerly look forward to paper versions, to tide us over until Matrix Wif hits the shelves.

Thanks !

(in reply to Gendarme)

Post #: 140

RE: Europe map? - 4/16/2007 6:30:43 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gendarme
Just noticed a few things --

There's a red line between Northern Ireland/Belfast and the rest of Great Britain. Don't know if it was there on the WIFFE maps or if it should be there, since Northern Ireland was meant to still be part of the Home Country of the CW.

Orkney Islands have (Gbr) showing ownership, maybe should be changed to (CW)?

Lastly, where the northern tip of Corsica is, the island between Corsica and Italy which I believe is Elba was owned by Italy yet the map shows it as part of Corsica-France. Maybe the island of Elba (which was Napoleon's first place of exile as we all know) should be moved over to the hex adjacent to the Italian coast there, or move that part of Corsica out of the same hex with Elba? I know that would be un-WIFFE, so I don't know what to do about that one.

But these are minor points that make no difference in game play. I mean, when will anyone use Elba for anything?

Again, these maps are terrific in every way and I eagerly look forward to paper versions, to tide us over until Matrix Wif hits the shelves.

Anthony DeChristopher

I just returned from Philadelphia, where I talked to a guy about printing a section of the the MWIF map (30% of the world). I am going to upload a jpg to him and he'll send me some samples on different media.

Are you really interested in paper? I was thinking of mylar (plastic) which is available in different thicknesses. I saw a sample of a photograph done on a canvas material, but I believe that would not work for those who would want to mount the map on a wall for using magnets (too thick). Though the canvas is real pretty and quite durable.

I am thinking along the lines of the full map being 10 feet by 17 feet, with it cut into 4 foot sections. From my perspective, 3 horizontal sections (two of them 4 feet high and the third 2 feet high), each 17 feet long would work best. The printer suggested 5 vertical pieces (we might be able to reduce that to 4, since the maximum width is 50 inches), each of which would be 10 feet high. My logic was that the horizontal would produce less seam-length, and seams between maps are always a bother. The printer's point was that hanging a section that is 17 feeet wide is physically challenging, while a 5 foot segment is relatively easier.

We haven't gotten around to talking price yet, but David Heath said that they usually just make printed material a pass-through cost. So it mainly depends on what the printer is going to charge.

Opinions? Interest level?

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Gendarme)

Post #: 141

RE: Europe map? - 4/16/2007 9:26:21 AM

Frederyck

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A mylar map would be heaven sent, in my opinion! As I've already stated in an earlier thread somewhere here - I'd buy one set of MWiF maps, and I think that at least one more group here in my hometown would be severely tempted as well!

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 142

RE: Europe map? - 4/16/2007 11:00:24 AM

Froonp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
I just returned from Philadelphia, where I talked to a guy about printing a section of the the MWIF map (30% of the world). I am going to upload a jpg to him and he'll send me some samples on different media.

Welcome back !

quote:

Are you really interested in paper? I was thinking of mylar (plastic) which is available in different thicknesses. I saw a sample of a photograph done on a canvas material, but I believe that would not work for those who would want to mount the map on a wall for using magnets (too thick). Though the canvas is real pretty and quite durable.

I don't see what Mylar is.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Frederyck
A mylar map would be heaven sent, in my opinion! As I've already stated in an earlier thread somewhere here - I'd buy one set of MWiF maps, and I think that at least one more group here in my hometown would be severely tempted as well!

Same for me !
I wonder where I'd put it, but it would be interested if the pieces you cut into the maps could be used independently. For example, it would be a good idea to have 1-2 pieces for China & Russian Far East, for people like me who think that the regular game could be played on these maps. I mean, I would use the MWiF China map instead of the WiF FE China.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 143

RE: Europe map? - 4/16/2007 11:40:04 AM

Frederyck

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Link: What is Mylar?

In short, it is a most often clear plastic that is used as a coating, but can be used as a base as well.

< Message edited by Frederyck -- 4/16/2007 11:41:22 AM >

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Post #: 144

RE: Europe map? - 4/16/2007 6:58:22 PM

Gendarme

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Hello Steve,

Don't know what mylar is but I'll go with whatever is decided.

Would the top/bottom hexes be trimmed or does that even make a difference with map size/playability? The northernmost regions of Alaska/Candada/Soviet Union may be able to suffer some cropping if necessary.

Interest level for me is very high. Can't answer for any others, however. I'm isolated from other Wiffers and only contact is through wifdiscussion or here. I don't see how improved China/Far East/Americas maps, in addition to improvements made to Western/Eastern Europe, could fail to interest current gamers. Asia/Pacific and Africa will definitely be more fun to play now.

Anthony DeChristopher

(in reply to Frederyck)

Post #: 145

RE: Europe map? - 4/16/2007 7:42:43 PM

Frederyck

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gendarme

Don't know what mylar is but I'll go with whatever is decided.

From my link in post 143:

What is Mylar�?

Mylar is often used to generically refer to polyester film or plastic sheet. However, it is a registered trademark owned by Dupont Tejjin Films for a specific family of plastic sheet products made from the resin Polyethylene Terephthalate (PET). The true generic term for this material is Polyester Film or Plastic Sheet.

Polyester Film/Plastic Sheet is manufactured in a range of different styles, finishes and thicknesses. Learn more information on the types of Mylar� that are available.

There are numerous applications for Polyester Film/Plastic Sheet. For more information please read about Mylar applications.

See also information on the properties of Polyester Film/Plastic Sheet.

Grafix Plastics offers a wide variety of different types, grades, finishes and thicknesses.

(in reply to Gendarme)

Post #: 146

RE: Europe map? - 4/16/2007 9:29:56 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Frederyck

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gendarme
Don't know what mylar is but I'll go with whatever is decided.

From my link in post 143:

What is Mylar�?

Mylar is often used to generically refer to polyester film or plastic sheet. However, it is a registered trademark owned by Dupont Tejjin Films for a specific family of plastic sheet products made from the resin Polyethylene Terephthalate (PET). The true generic term for this material is Polyester Film or Plastic Sheet.

Polyester Film/Plastic Sheet is manufactured in a range of different styles, finishes and thicknesses. Learn more information on the types of Mylar� that are available.

There are numerous applications for Polyester Film/Plastic Sheet. For more information please read about Mylar applications.

See also information on the properties of Polyester Film/Plastic Sheet.

Grafix Plastics offers a wide variety of different types, grades, finishes and thicknesses.

Thanks.

My use of the term Mylar comes from when I was working in the engineering print department for Allied Chemical back in 1966. We made copies of engineering drawings using master copies that had been drawn on either linen or Mylar. The linen copies required passing through an ammonia-light sensitive process which produced, literally, blue prints. The Mylar drawings could be used to produced (more or less) black on white prints. For you youngsters out there, this all predates Xerox copies. The only other automated copying mechanism available to the engineers was a Denison copier, but those copies had to be small (8 1/2 inches by 11 inches) and changed color (became darker) over time. After 1 year they were more or less unreadable.

"Plastic sheet" or "polyester film" would be more accurate, but mylar is almost equivalent to saying kleenex instead of "facial tissue".

Please, no verbal assaults about misuse of copyrighted names from lawyers.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Frederyck)

Post #: 147

RE: Europe map? - 8/31/2007 12:55:46 AM

SPerdomo

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Hello all, I've been lurking these forums for a couple years :) (and recently volunteered to help a bit with the unit description), however, somehow, this map thread escaped me :D .

I have seen some names in the Iberian Peninsula map who aren�t written like that in spanish:
a
Sierra de Guaderrama (in the map) would be Sierra de Guadarrama
Seville would be Sevilla (maybe you keep "seville" as english name? )
Majorca would be Mayorca
Minorca would be Menorca
Saragossa would be Zaragoza (same as with Seville)
Tagus would be Tajo (however, this river crosses also Portugal, I think the name doesn't change in Portugal, and remains as Tajo, but I can search for that if you want).

I hope it isn't too late to make these corrections...

Thanks and great job (i can hardly wait for the game :D )

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 148

RE: Europe map? - 8/31/2007 2:14:06 AM

Froonp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SPerdomo

Hello all, I've been lurking these forums for a couple years :) (and recently volunteered to help a bit with the unit description), however, somehow, this map thread escaped me :D .

I have seen some names in the Iberian Peninsula map who aren�t written like that in spanish:
a
Sierra de Guaderrama (in the map) would be Sierra de Guadarrama
Seville would be Sevilla (maybe you keep "seville" as english name? )
Majorca would be Mayorca
Minorca would be Menorca
Saragossa would be Zaragoza (same as with Seville)
Tagus would be Tajo (however, this river crosses also Portugal, I think the name doesn't change in Portugal, and remains as Tajo, but I can search for that if you want).

I hope it isn't too late to make these corrections...

Thanks and great job (i can hardly wait for the game :D )

It's not too late, labels are easy to change / add / delete to the map.

We'd prefer English names for all names, so we prefer to keep Seville & Saragossa.
For Spain, I had found names at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_exonyms.
You're welcome to give me more English names.

(in reply to SPerdomo)

Post #: 149

RE: Europe map? - 8/31/2007 10:19:36 AM

SPerdomo

Posts: 11
Joined: 8/24/2007
Status: offline

Ah ok, my bad :) . Seeing the discussion about the rivers in swedish, and the list of changes you were proposing to Harry (like that "Almiera" that in the cardboard game hurts my eyes :D ), and also the surprising good spanish names of cities like C�diz (including the effort to have the accents in the right places .. .etc) I assumed that you wanted to have the names in their original language... I should have realized also Marseilles and Lyons for example. Well, as someone said, assumption is the mother of all mistakes :) .

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 150