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RE: Europe map? - 2/1/2008 12:43:04 AM

Froonp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Looks good to me Patrice.

I'll send you the data files in a few tens of minutes, as I have to go to bed soon and stop adding pretty names to the map for tonight.
(unless marcuswatney gives me more Akyab, Mareth and Tjilatjap names that I love to have on the map because of their WWII stories.)

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 211

RE: Europe map? - 2/1/2008 12:47:28 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Looks good to me Patrice.

I'll send you the data files in a few tens of minutes, as I have to go to bed soon and stop adding pretty names to the map for tonight.
(unless marcuswatney gives me more Akyab, Mareth and Tjilatjap names that I love to have on the map because of their WWII stories.)

See my (edited) comment in post #210.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 212

RE: Europe map? - 2/1/2008 1:14:09 AM

Froonp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
But I am not so sure about the change in Czechoslovakia and Hungary. A different color/font is needed to separate it from Sudetenland, Transylvania, et al.

The last two have rules especially for them in the game (Sudetenland is in Days of Decision, I believe). The new additions do not have rules related to them.

Perhaps they should be shown with the same font as the historical references are? Just something different - so the players aren't wondering what rules apply to Ruthenia.

Well, this is simple. Area that have rule for them have borders, the others don't.

I think it is best to represent all the sub country territorial divisions, such as Rhineland and Morovia in the same way, because if there are more ways, you wonder why they are different. At start, Rhineland was written in low case, but this bave the impression that Bessarabia for example was lower grade compared to Silesia (who was upper case). Putting them all upper case makes them all the same importance. Distinguishing them all from a game point of view is seen because some of them have borders while the others don't.

One additional way to distinguish them, the best IMO, would be to have the name appear in the status bar of the game when the mouse hover one of its hexes. For example, when in Germany, the status bar shows "Germany (XX, YY)". Why in Rhineland, it could show "Rhineland, Germany (XX, YY)". When over Bessarabia, it would show "Bessarabia, Rumania (XX, YY)" if still part of Rumania, or "Bessarabia, Russia (XX, YY)" if part of Russia.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 213

RE: Europe map? - 2/1/2008 1:58:29 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
But I am not so sure about the change in Czechoslovakia and Hungary. A different color/font is needed to separate it from Sudetenland, Transylvania, et al.

The last two have rules especially for them in the game (Sudetenland is in Days of Decision, I believe). The new additions do not have rules related to them.

Perhaps they should be shown with the same font as the historical references are? Just something different - so the players aren't wondering what rules apply to Ruthenia.

Well, this is simple. Area that have rule for them have borders, the others don't.

I think it is best to represent all the sub country territorial divisions, such as Rhineland and Morovia in the same way, because if there are more ways, you wonder why they are different. At start, Rhineland was written in low case, but this bave the impression that Bessarabia for example was lower grade compared to Silesia (who was upper case). Putting them all upper case makes them all the same importance. Distinguishing them all from a game point of view is seen because some of them have borders while the others don't.

One additional way to distinguish them, the best IMO, would be to have the name appear in the status bar of the game when the mouse hover one of its hexes. For example, when in Germany, the status bar shows "Germany (XX, YY)". Why in Rhineland, it could show "Rhineland, Germany (XX, YY)". When over Bessarabia, it would show "Bessarabia, Rumania (XX, YY)" if still part of Rumania, or "Bessarabia, Russia (XX, YY)" if part of Russia.

Ok. but I won't include 'Germany' as part of the description for the Rhineland (for example). Then the name becomes too long. Remember that a city name might also be part of the status bar text.

_____________________________

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Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 214

RE: Europe map? - 2/1/2008 8:37:58 AM

Froonp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Ok. but I won't include 'Germany' as part of the description for the Rhineland (for example). Then the name becomes too long. Remember that a city name might also be part of the status bar text.

Yes, but the text automatically shrinks to fit, so I think this won't be a problem.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 215

RE: Europe map? - 2/1/2008 9:59:37 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Ok. but I won't include 'Germany' as part of the description for the Rhineland (for example). Then the name becomes too long. Remember that a city name might also be part of the status bar text.

Yes, but the text automatically shrinks to fit, so I think this won't be a problem.

The text desn't 'automatically' shrink to fit; there is Pascal code that makes that happen

.

But when the font gets too small, I am unhappy because it becomes hard to read. Whenever possible, I try to prevent that from happening.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 216

RE: Europe map? - 2/1/2008 10:39:06 AM

Smiffus64

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney

quote:

ORIGINAL: Smiffus64

Re. The Hague and Amsterdam. Amsterdam is the capital of the Netherlands, however the seat of government is in the Hague.

The seat of government defines the capital, since the word comes from Latin 'capus' the head. I know this is an on-going problem in the Netherlands, with different tourist sites even today claiming the honour for their preferred city. The best compromise I have found is on one tourist web site which, with impressive diplomacy, calls The Hague the Political Capital and Amsterdam the Cultural Capital.

Sadly, in life we don't get to choose our capitals. Many are smaller and more boring than neighbouring famous cities. Think Ottawa, Canberra, Brasilia.

Perhaps the starkest example of this is Vichy France. Vichy is a tiny spa town, dwarfed by Marseilles and Lyons. yet the unoccupied zone is known to history as Vichy France, because that was the seat of Petain's government. Ergo, the capital of The Netherlands is The Hague.

I tried to PM you about this, but somehow I can't. Anyway, we're taught at school about the division between the 2 cities, I guess we're special that way as a country (having a seperate seat of governement and capital) :)

perhaps this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_of_the_Netherlands can shed some more light.

Of course this discussion hasn't that much to do with WiF any more so I'll stop :)

(in reply to marcuswatney)

Post #: 217

RE: Europe map? - 2/1/2008 8:16:53 PM

composer99

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I rather like the little "The Hague" and the little regional descriptions, although like Steve I think they should have a different font from areas that have game effects attached to them.

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(in reply to Smiffus64)

Post #: 218

RE: Europe map? - 2/10/2008 8:37:17 PM

marcuswatney

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I am intrigued that the Mannerheim Line is not shown as an on-map fortification, as it held the Soviets up for quite a few months. Or is the single hexside considered troublesome enough?

(in reply to composer99)

Post #: 219

RE: Europe map? - 2/10/2008 8:58:41 PM

Norman42

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney

I am intrigued that the Mannerheim Line is not shown as an on-map fortification, as it held the Soviets up for quite a few months.� Or is the single hexside considered troublesome enough?

In WiF, map-printed fortifications usually represent massive construction elements on a strategic level. Reinforced earthworks, concrete pillboxes and bunkers, deep minefields, and/or massive large calibre gun emplacements in armored blockhouses. The Mannerhiem Line while it was effective in blunting and repelling the Soviet Winter Offensive, was more a series of strongpoints anchored by poor terrain held by very determined troops vs a rather poorly planned operation. A few anti-tank ditches, trenches, and hidden machine nests in log bunkers doesn't really compare to the massive fortress works of the Maginot and Sevastopol, or the giant naval artillery turrets of Singapore.

An argument *could* be made that a single hexside fortification facing Germany should be printed at Eben Emal in Belgium, as this kind of constructed defence was in fact a reality and was the major worry of the OKW in the planning of the Belgium operations. Since this area already has a river line defence I assumed that Harry and Co. felt a fortress hexside was too much.

.

(in reply to marcuswatney)

Post #: 220

RE: Europe map? - 2/10/2008 9:34:05 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Norman42

quote:

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney

I am intrigued that the Mannerheim Line is not shown as an on-map fortification, as it held the Soviets up for quite a few months.� Or is the single hexside considered troublesome enough?

In WiF, map-printed fortifications usually represent massive construction elements on a strategic level. Reinforced earthworks, concrete pillboxes and bunkers, deep minefields, and/or massive large calibre gun emplacements in armored blockhouses. The Mannerhiem Line while it was effective in blunting and repelling the Soviet Winter Offensive, was more a series of strongpoints anchored by poor terrain held by very determined troops vs a rather poorly planned operation. A few anti-tank ditches, trenches, and hidden machine nests in log bunkers doesn't really compare to the massive fortress works of the Maginot and Sevastopol, or the giant naval artillery turrets of Singapore.

An argument *could* be made that a single hexside fortification facing Germany should be printed at Eben Emal in Belgium, as this kind of constructed defence was in fact a reality and was the major worry of the OKW in the planning of the Belgium operations. Since this area already has a river line defence I assumed that Harry and Co. felt a fortress hexside was too much.

.

An optional rule lets players build their own fortifications, pretty much anywhere. These 'new' fortifications effect attacking strength by only 1/2 while 'permanent' fortifications do so by 1/3. Lulea in Sweden has been given 'new' fortications to start the game - an MWIF change from WIF FE. Germany has several 'new' fortifications in hand at the start of the 1939 scenarios, and they can placed those where they want (usually opposing the Maginot Line).

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Norman42)

Post #: 221

RE: Europe map? - 2/11/2008 1:55:35 AM

marcuswatney

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Ah, but can fortifications be placed in a neutral Minor, and in particular a Minor with special rules like Finland? Can Germany donate one of those fortifications on the production spiral to Finland before the Soviets attack?

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 222

RE: Europe map? - 2/11/2008 2:12:26 AM

brian brian

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the at-start ones could not go to Finland. I'm fairly sure you can build them and then place them in an active aligned minor, cuz I've seen them in front of me in Rumania. They take five turns to build and can not be placed in an enemy ZoC the turn they arrive.

(in reply to marcuswatney)

Post #: 223

RE: Europe map? - 2/11/2008 3:01:15 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

the at-start ones could not go to Finland. I'm fairly sure you can build them and then place them in an active aligned minor, cuz I've seen them in front of me in Rumania. They take five turns to build and can not be placed in an enemy ZoC the turn they arrive.

Yes.

By active, Brian means the country is at war.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to brian brian)

Post #: 224

RE: Europe map? - 2/11/2008 7:29:52 PM

marcuswatney

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Surely not?� Can't Germany activate Romania before Germany is at war with the USSR?� How about Finland? Or am I getting 'activate' confused with 'aligned'?

So the question then would be: Can I build a fort in an inactive but aligned Minor?

< Message edited by marcuswatney -- 2/11/2008 7:31:53 PM >

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 225

RE: Europe map? - 2/11/2008 8:07:16 PM

Froonp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney

Surely not?� Can't Germany activate Romania before Germany is at war with the USSR?� How about Finland? Or am I getting 'activate' confused with 'aligned'?

So the question then would be: Can I build a fort in an inactive but aligned Minor?

An aligned minor is active, so Germany can build forts in Finland and Rumania when they are aligned to Germany.
Please note that generaly Finland can only be aligned when Germany & Russia are at war. Except if Russia declares war to Finland (and Germany aligns it).

(in reply to marcuswatney)

Post #: 226

RE: Europe map? - 2/11/2008 8:12:17 PM

composer99

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For the purposes of WiF:FE, "activate" and "align" are identical - when you align a minor, it joins your side and is at war with everyone you are at war with.

It is possible for Germany to align Rumania and/or Finland before being at war with the USSR; the exact circumstances are described in section 19 of RAW.

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Post #: 227

RE: Europe map? - 2/11/2008 11:21:53 PM

marcuswatney

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I've read section 19.6.1 of RAW, and as far as I can see there is no facility for Germany to align Finland while the USSR is attacking Finland ... only once Finland is neutral again. Is this correct?

How then are Finnish units rebuilt while they are fighting a lonely war with the Soviet Union? And can they themselves build a fort, if they are not allowed to use one constructed by the Germans?

(in reply to composer99)

Post #: 228

RE: Europe map? - 2/11/2008 11:29:29 PM

Froonp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney

I've read section 19.6.1 of RAW, and as far as I can see there is no facility for Germany to align Finland while the USSR is attacking Finland ... only once Finland is neutral again.� Is this correct?

How then are Finnish units rebuilt while they are fighting a lonely war with the Soviet Union?� And can they themselves build a fort, if they are not allowed to use one constructed by the Germans?

When Russia DoWs Finland, it has to align on a Major Power on the other side of Russia. Germany is the best choice. Then Finland is aligned to Germany.

(in reply to marcuswatney)

Post #: 229

RE: Europe map? - 2/11/2008 11:50:49 PM

marcuswatney

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Post 7: My 1936 map shows Turkish rail-lines going from the Soviet border to just a little bit beyond Erzerum, rail-lines going up from Aleppo as far as Malatva (3SW Erzerum) and the line from Samsun going as far as Sivas (2SE 1E Samsun) as shown on the game-map. But the 1942 map shows not only the Erzerum to Aleppo line completed as shown on the game-map, but also the Erzerum to Ankara link via Sivas completed. That's to say, the Samsun rail-line should continue 1SE 1E from Sivas (the valley) to connect with the existing line.

Of course, if Germany were to ship Caucasus resources through aligned Turkey, such a rail-line would make a Commonwealth intervention to cut the line just across the Syrian border a non-starter. So perhaps this rail spur has been left out intentionally?

(in reply to marcuswatney)

Post #: 230

RE: Europe map? - 2/11/2008 11:57:28 PM

marcuswatney

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

When Russia DoWs Finland, it has to align on a Major Power on the other side of Russia. Germany is the best choice. Then Finland is aligned to Germany.

So during the Winter War, forts constructed by Germany can be placed in Finland? But when Finland becomes neutral again at the end of the Winter War, it automatically stops being aligned to Germany, which means Finnish units cannot be rebuilt or forts placed until a new alignment occurs? Have I got it right now?

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 231

RE: Europe map? - 2/12/2008 12:01:24 AM

Froonp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

When Russia DoWs Finland, it has to align on a Major Power on the other side of Russia. Germany is the best choice. Then Finland is aligned to Germany.

So during the Winter War, forts constructed by Germany can be placed in Finland? But when Finland becomes neutral again at the end of the Winter War, it automatically stops being aligned to Germany, which means Finnish units cannot be rebuilt or forts placed until a new alignment occurs? Have I got it right now?

Yes. But forts take 5 turns to build (10 months), so if the war is finished before the fort is placed on the map, it won't be able to be placed in Finland.

(in reply to marcuswatney)

Post #: 232

RE: Europe map? - 2/12/2008 10:53:28 PM

Sewerlobster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

19th and last in the series.

Southern Europe overview. I had to trim this to get it to fit within the 500kb file size limit.

I am sure that Patrice would welcome comments on the map labels. He did a lot of work on them.

Absolutely awesome, the lables are wonderful. I love the little detail ones, e.g. Monte Casino et al. A gaming work of art.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 233

RE: Europe map? - 2/13/2008 9:42:26 AM

Frederyck

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Norman42

An argument *could* be made that a single hexside fortification facing Germany should be printed at Eben Emal in Belgium, as this kind of constructed defence was in fact a reality and was the major worry of the OKW in the planning of the Belgium operations. Since this area already has a river line defence I assumed that Harry and Co. felt a fortress hexside was too much.

I visited Eben Emael this summer with a few of my equally geeky friends and took a 3-4 hour tour of it, and it is truly an impressing place. However, since it only took the Germans some 30+ minutes to render it essentially inoperable, I think it is correctly represented on the WiF map.

(in reply to Norman42)

Post #: 234

RE: Europe map? - 2/13/2008 2:55:52 PM

marcuswatney

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In the RAW, I can't find a specific reference to Hango. Is it simply considered a third Finnish Borderlands? If so, perhaps it should be so marked on the map?

The Salla Finnish Borderlands should really extend further south. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuation_War and note the southern end of the lost territory relative to the large lakes and the White Sea. The Soviets were anxious to create a buffer zone to protect the Murmansk rail-line.

(in reply to Frederyck)

Post #: 235

RE: Europe map? - 2/13/2008 11:14:52 PM

Froonp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SewerStarFish

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

19th and last in the series.

Southern Europe overview. I had to trim this to get it to fit within the 500kb file size limit.

I am sure that Patrice would welcome comments on the map labels. He did a lot of work on them.

Absolutely awesome, the lables are wonderful. I love the little detail ones, e.g. Monte Casino et al. A gaming work of art.

I think that we're open to add more, the little ones, if you've got good ideas.

(in reply to Sewerlobster)

Post #: 236

RE: Europe map? - 2/13/2008 11:19:14 PM

Froonp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney

In the RAW, I can't find a specific reference to Hango.� Is it simply considered a third Finnish Borderlands?� If so, perhaps it should be so marked on the map?

In MWiF it is simply part of the Finnish Borderlands. It's a little small to write it on the map.

quote:

The Salla Finnish Borderlands should really extend further south.� See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuation_War�and note the southern end of the lost territory relative to the large lakes and the White Sea.� The Soviets were anxious to create a buffer zone to protect the Murmansk rail-line.

Well, you're right indeed. Adding a third hex in the south would be OK ? Adding a fourth would be too much as the Salla area is going slimer and slimer the southern it goes.

(in reply to marcuswatney)

Post #: 237

RE: Europe map? - 2/14/2008 2:13:22 AM

marcuswatney

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I agree that adding a single extra hex (southwest) to Salla would be quite sufficient.

I do think some identification of Hango's unusual status needs to be marked on the map, in a smaller font no doubt, because newbies aren't likely to be aware as we are of the terms of the 1940 treaty. At the moment it looks a bit like a Baltic Gibraltar. The fact that it doesn't have a red side to the west sort of implies it might belong to Sweden, the same way that the Aland Islands belong to Finland.

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 238

RE: Europe map? - 2/14/2008 2:58:41 AM

jesperpehrson