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RE: Europe map? - 2/15/2008 8:07:45 PM

marcuswatney

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I've noticed the omission of Lampedusa and Pantellaria. Is there a reason for this? Since they were both attacked in 1943, surely they should appear? Much smaller islands are already in the game.

During the war, Lampedusa (the smaller of the two) had a population of 3000 and an 800m airstrip... much more significant than many of the atolls included on the Pacific map.

(in reply to bredsjomagnus)

Post #: 241

RE: Europe map? - 2/15/2008 11:04:50 PM

Froonp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney

I've noticed the omission of Lampedusa and Pantellaria.� Is there a reason for this?� Since they were both attacked in 1943, surely they should appear?� Much smaller islands are already in the game.

During the war, Lampedusa (the smaller of the two) had a population of 3000 and an 800m airstrip... much more significant than many of the atolls included on the Pacific map.

Sure, but adding them would be an earthquake in how the Med plays.
I believe that ADG did not add them in the first place because they did not have so much importance in how the Med war developped. If it was in MWiF, it would allow the Axis to invade Malta super easily, and give them one more close air base to Tripoli & Malta.

(in reply to marcuswatney)

Post #: 242

RE: Europe map? - 2/16/2008 1:29:24 AM

Norman42

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quote:

If it was in MWiF, it would allow the Axis to invade Malta super easily, and give them one more close air base to Tripoli & Malta.

I think that is exactly the point. They did (or at least were planned to do) all those things you state.

I've long wondered why they werent added when the maps changed from 5th edition to the Final Edition maps. Pantellaria and Lampedusa were thorns in the side of the Allies in Medit. naval operations due to their air power and motor torpedo boat squadrons; many air strikes on Malta originated from there; some of the forces for the planned Axis operation to invade Malta(the aborted Operation Herkules if I recall correctly) were based out of these 2 isles; they were staging points for the Axis evacuations of North Africa; and most importantly they sat *right across the Central Med shipping lanes* and had to therefore be widely circumvented making for much longer convoys to Malta and eastwards.

They were fortified Axis versions of Malta.

Thier non existance on the WiFFE maps (and ergo the CWiF maps) is disappointing.

.

< Message edited by Norman42 -- 2/16/2008 1:31:32 AM >

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 243

RE: Europe map? - 2/16/2008 3:04:08 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Norman42

quote:

If it was in MWiF, it would allow the Axis to invade Malta super easily, and give them one more close air base to Tripoli & Malta.

I think that is exactly the point. They did (or at least were planned to do) all those things you state.

I've long wondered why they werent added when the maps changed from 5th edition to the Final Edition maps. Pantellaria and Lampedusa were thorns in the side of the Allies in Medit. naval operations due to their air power and motor torpedo boat squadrons; many air strikes on Malta originated from there; some of the forces for the planned Axis operation to invade Malta(the aborted Operation Herkules if I recall correctly) were based out of these 2 isles; they were staging points for the Axis evacuations of North Africa; and most importantly they sat *right across the Central Med shipping lanes* and had to therefore be widely circumvented making for much longer convoys to Malta and eastwards.

They were fortified Axis versions of Malta.

Thier non existance on the WiFFE maps (and ergo the CWiF maps) is disappointing.

.

Patrice,

I know you keep a lot of lists.

Do you have one that includes suggested improvements to the European map? If and when I get around to MWIF product 2, I would like to make a pass at correcting things like this. Or at least thinknig seriously about doing so.

_____________________________

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Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Norman42)

Post #: 244

RE: Europe map? - 2/17/2008 3:39:57 PM

Froonp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
I know you keep a lot of lists. Do you have one that includes suggested improvements to the European map? If and when I get around to MWIF product 2, I would like to make a pass at correcting things like this. Or at least thinknig seriously about doing so.

Arghh, unfortunately, I did not.
I'll try to gather them, from this thread.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 245

RE: Europe map? - 2/18/2008 11:05:04 PM

Froonp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
I know you keep a lot of lists. Do you have one that includes suggested improvements to the European map? If and when I get around to MWIF product 2, I would like to make a pass at correcting things like this. Or at least thinknig seriously about doing so.

Arghh, unfortunately, I did not.
I'll try to gather them, from this thread.

Corrected.

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 246

RE: Europe map? - 2/18/2008 11:20:38 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
I know you keep a lot of lists. Do you have one that includes suggested improvements to the European map? If and when I get around to MWIF product 2, I would like to make a pass at correcting things like this. Or at least thinknig seriously about doing so.

Arghh, unfortunately, I did not.
I'll try to gather them, from this thread.

Corrected.

From memory there have been comments about:

Finnish border (SE)
Denmark straits (NW and to Copenhagen's island)
Scotland
Belgium
Switzerland (NW)
NW Africa
Qattara Depression

_____________________________

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(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 247

RE: Europe map? - 2/18/2008 11:47:44 PM

Froonp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
From memory there have been comments about:

Finnish border (SE)
Denmark straits (NW and to Copenhagen's island)
Scotland
Belgium
Switzerland (NW)
NW Africa
Qattara Depression

Wow, that's memory...

What were theses suggestions ? (so that I can note them, to compensate my faulty memory).
I only remember clearly the last one (that I have added to the list).

Is the Belgium one the one about the German hex that should be Dutch ? I've called it the Dutch one.
I can't remember the others.

Is the NW Africa the one that asked to add spurs of railway in Algeria (I did this indeed), or is it the one that asked for Fez to be on the map, or is it mine to extend the railway down to Marrakech ?

I have loads of others, if I don't remember those

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 248

RE: Europe map? - 2/19/2008 1:12:50 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
From memory there have been comments about:

Finnish border (SE)
Denmark straits (NW and to Copenhagen's island)
Scotland
Belgium
Switzerland (NW)
NW Africa
Qattara Depression

Wow, that's memory...

What were theses suggestions ? (so that I can note them, to compensate my faulty memory).
I only remember clearly the last one (that I have added to the list).

Is the Belgium one the one about the German hex that should be Dutch ? I've called it the Dutch one.
I can't remember the others.

Is the NW Africa the one that asked to add spurs of railway in Algeria (I did this indeed), or is it the one that asked for Fez to be on the map, or is it mine to extend the railway down to Marrakech ?

I have loads of others, if I don't remember those

Memories, memories (it's a song).

Finland - the border with the USSR in the southeast of Finland, including the lakes and the river (Svir?) that connects them. Possibly also the Finnish borderlands just north of this area. The reality was not as well modelled by the MWIF map as it might be, partially because of the movement ability of the Finnish units to penetrate deep into the USSR, cutting off Leningrad from the east.

Denmark - the connections between the islands in the NW were questioned. this mostly has to do with the hexes being larger than the islands so some hexes contain 1 and a half islands. The connections southeast and southwest from Copenhagen's island are shown as straits, and that was questioned too. And I have questions about the rail lines that cross between islands. I am unhappy that there isn't a clear statement of what a rail line crossing the open sea means.

Belgium - Transforming the national boundaries of the 3 lowland countries to fit the hex grid made one of them disappear completely (Luxembourg). The others do not match reality perfectly, but what we currently have may simply be the best that is possible.

Scotland - A forum member who was from Scotland was quite annoyed by the rendering of his homeland on the map. I forget the particulars.

Switzerland - a very recent post about the NW corner of Switzerland being more vulnerable than is indicated on the MWIF map.

NW Africa - as you note, there were several questions here. I think I am remembering Marrakech as being something we didn't do because we did not want to change the European map.

Qattara - very recent post having to do with its shape and that it should form more of a bottleneck against the Med.

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(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 249

RE: Europe map? - 2/19/2008 2:43:02 AM

marcuswatney

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Qattara was from me. I recently pulled out my 1985 WiF map: there the coastline is bent around the hex-grid so that at Alamein there is just a single hex between Qattara and the sea ... a bit too extreme I think.

Also, originally there were only two Belgium hexes between the Netherlands and the Maginot Line.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 250

RE: Europe map? - 2/19/2008 10:44:13 AM

Neilster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney

Qattara was from me. I recently pulled out my 1985 WiF map: there the coastline is bent around the hex-grid so that at Alamein there is just a single hex between Qattara and the sea ... a bit too extreme I think.

Also, originally there were only two Belgium hexes between the Netherlands and the Maginot Line.

Re Qattara. The MWiF hex-size and the map below indicates that 1 hex may be reasonable.

Cheers, Neilster

Edit: The scale didn't display. The shortest distance from the top of the depression to the Med is about 60-70 km.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Neilster -- 2/19/2008 10:46:23 AM >

(in reply to marcuswatney)

Post #: 251

where are the lakes? - 3/1/2008 4:19:49 PM

jcprom

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Lakes are depicted in detail in Scandinavia, Turkey and other areas.

However, some lakes were overlooked in central Europe, probably because they have no effect on game play:

-swiss lakes: Konstanz and Leman (no effect on game play unless you invade Switzerland),
-lake Balaton in Hungary (no effect on game play except perhaps on last turn),
-lake Zuidersee between Austria and Hungary? (should be checked),
-northern italian lake(s)? (should be checked),
-lake(s) in east Prussia (if not on the Soviet border, game effect would be very limited),
(...)

NB: Elba (NE of Corsica) is Italian, not French.

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 252

RE: where are the lakes? - 3/2/2008 12:01:50 PM

Froonp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jcprom
-swiss lakes: Konstanz and Leman (no effect on game play unless you invade Switzerland),

Noted in my list. But they won't be added now, I keep them for changes done later when we decide to have the Euopean map changed (MWiF2 ?).
The first (Lake Constance) is 64 km long 14 km wide. I would place it on the NE hexside of Zurich hex.
The later is rather called Lake Geneva and is 73 km long 14 km wide. It is on one of the hexsides of 59,32 of in the hex, it might be a nightmare to add given the hexagonal adaptation of the Swiss border with France.

quote:

-lake Balaton in Hungary (no effect on game play except perhaps on last turn),

Warranted too. It is 77 km long 14 km wide. It is on the NW hexside of the resource hex.

quote:

-lake Zuidersee between Austria and Hungary? (should be checked),

I have difficulties finding this one. Is it Lake Neusiedl, SE of Vienna ? If this is it, it is too small to appear on the map on a hexside blocking movement. Also, given the hexagonal adaptation of the Austria / Hungary / Czechoslovakia border at this place, it looks like a nightmare to add too. Probably better left out.

quote:

-northern italian lake(s)? (should be checked),

The larger of these seems to be Lake Garda, it is situated halfway between Milan & Venice. It is about 50 km long and 16 km wide at its largest.
A WiF map hex has an average diameter of 89 km, which means that an hexside has an average length of 51 km. These figures seem to say that this lake would be long enough to be added to the map. I would place it on the W hexside of hex 60,37 (the hex NW of Venice).
There is also a reversed Y shapped lake at the Swiss border (Lake Como), but at this place on the WiF map there already is an Alpine hexside. Also, it is said it is only 46 km long. It is too short.
There is another lake, Lake Maggiore, east of Lake Como. 66 km long, extending from within Switzerland into Italy. It can be placed on the W hexside of hex 60,35 (the hex NW of Milan).

quote:

-lake(s) in east Prussia (if not on the Soviet border, game effect would be very limited),

There is a lot of lakes in the south of East Prussia, but none seems to be more than 10-15 km in dimensions.

quote:

NB: Elba (NE of Corsica) is Italian, not French.

This one is already on my list.

Edit : I've added to my list for the future :
Lake Constance (Switzerland)
Lake Geneva (Switzerland)
Lake Balaton (Hungay)
Lake Garda (Italy)
Lake Maggiore (Italy)

< Message edited by Froonp -- 3/2/2008 12:05:32 PM >

(in reply to jcprom)

Post #: 253

RE: where are the lakes? - 3/2/2008 1:13:13 PM

jcprom

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I'm pleased you wish to add more features to the Europe map in MWIF release 2. Thanks again for the hard work.

NB: it's lake Neusiedler indeed (I guess I need some sleep...). This lake is only 36 kms long.

< Message edited by jcprom -- 3/2/2008 2:04:21 PM >

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Post #: 254

Mauersee - 3/2/2008 1:59:57 PM

jcprom

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All East Prussian lakes are less than 30 kms long except one, the Mamry (Mauersee in German).

Lake Mamry is the second largest polish lake (113.8 sq km). The shoreline of Lake Mamry is 180 kilometers (I didn�t find the length). Mamry is up to 44m deep (average 11m deep).

One tourist guide says : �The Great Mazurian Lakes route starts in Nidzkie Lake and goes to Węgorzewo on Lake Mamry and is about 80 km long, but with its many winding branches � this can reach 200 km. � (There are about 2000 lakes in Mazuria. Some are connected.)

(in reply to jcprom)

Post #: 255

RE: Europe map? - 3/2/2008 4:21:44 PM

Froonp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney

I've noticed the omission of Lampedusa and Pantellaria.� Is there a reason for this?� Since they were both attacked in 1943, surely they should appear?� Much smaller islands are already in the game.

During the war, Lampedusa (the smaller of the two) had a population of 3000 and an 800m airstrip... much more significant than many of the atolls included on the Pacific map.

I've looked at them, and they are situated in hex 76,37 (position 15) (hex E of Sousse, to the E of the hex) hex 74,37 (position 18) (2 hexes E of Tunis, to the S of the hex) respectively.

(in reply to marcuswatney)

Post #: 256

RE: Europe map? - 3/2/2008 6:12:56 PM

Froonp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster

quote:

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney

Qattara was from me. I recently pulled out my 1985 WiF map: there the coastline is bent around the hex-grid so that at Alamein there is just a single hex between Qattara and the sea ... a bit too extreme I think.

Also, originally there were only two Belgium hexes between the Netherlands and the Maginot Line.

Re Qattara. The MWiF hex-size and the map below indicates that 1 hex may be reasonable.

Cheers, Neilster

Edit: The scale didn't display. The shortest distance from the top of the depression to the Med is about 60-70 km.

I did a draft drawing of the Qattara Depression, as it seems to really be, from the maps of Egypt I have.
It will not be changed on the MWiF map as of MWiF1, but I did this to see how it could be after MWiF1.

I'm not sure that leaving only a corridor 1 hex wide between Matruh and El Alamein is the solution for the better realism.
Having a 2 hex wide corridor allows for a corps to advance along the coast and a second corps to begin an outflanking move, from the south, providing he has a supplying HQ somewhere near. Having only a 1 hex wide corridor prevents the outflanking manoeuvre and makes a frontal confrontation mandatory.

It seems to me that Rommel & the Brits tried to outflank each other all the time in the desert war, and the Mareth / El Alamein area seems quite OK depcted as a 2 hex corridor, even if it only has a width that would warrant 1 full hex. Being 2 hex wide, with the top hex being more than half sea seems right to me.

Nethertheless, here is a try at the 1 hex wide Mareth / El Alamein corridor.

Attachment (1)

(in reply to Neilster)

Post #: 257

RE: Europe map? - 3/2/2008 8:12:19 PM

marcuswatney

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Patrice: that is a wonderful depiction of the Qattara Depression.

I agree that the corridor should be two hexes wide, as with WiF FE, so that players have some tactical flexibility.

Outflanking wasn't an option in any of the three battles at El Alamein: even in the first (the only important one: Ruweisat Ridge) the whole line was covered, with XXX Corps on the coast and XIII Corps in the south. The technique was to hold against the infantry but let the enemy armour pass through, knowing that the tanks would have to come back eventually to refuel. So in the second battle (Alam Halfa), DAK attacked in the south in what looks like an outflanking move, but it wasn't really, as it came through two defending brigades, and 7 Armoured Division was positioned in reserve specifically to counter such a move.

In the famous final battle at El Alamein, the British were attacking with three corps: XXX, XIII and X Corps. So it seems to me that two hexes wide is the correct frontage.

I have this suggestion. Correct me if I am wrong, but one of the weird things I recall about WiF is that partial Qattara hexes are impassable. This gives a very odd feel to the desert war, especially since partial sea hexes are (of course) playable. So my suggestion is to use the far better and naturalistic depiction you have created for the Qattara Depression straightaway, in MWiF1, but allow use of partial Qattara hexes, as is done in all other desert games. Thus there is no change to the play of the game in the crucial area, but it does look soooooooo much better.

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 258

RE: Europe map? - 3/2/2008 10:45:24 PM

Froonp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney
So my suggestion is to use the far better and naturalistic depiction you have created for the Qattara Depression straightaway, in MWiF1, but allow use of partial Qattara hexes, as is done in all other desert games.� Thus there is no change to the play of the game in the crucial area, but it does look soooooooo much better.

What about shifting the drawing I made 1/3 hex southward, and slightly altering it, so that it is not more in the Suez hexrow, so that movement is still impossible in qattara Depression hexes ?

(in reply to marcuswatney)

Post #: 259

RE: Europe map? - 3/2/2008 10:57:49 PM

Froonp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney
I have this suggestion.� Correct me if I am wrong, but one of the weird things I recall about WiF is that partial Qattara hexes are impassable.� This gives a very odd feel to the desert war, especially since partial sea hexes are (of course) playable.� So my suggestion is to use the far better and naturalistic depiction you have created for the Qattara Depression straightaway, in MWiF1, but allow use of partial Qattara hexes, as is done in all other desert games.� Thus there is no change to the play of the game in the crucial area, but it does look soooooooo much better.

Well, I'd rather draw the Qattara Depression 1/3rd hex southward, so that the Suez hexrow is free of it.
If we say that partial hexes are not blocking movement, then there is little left of the Qattara depression.

(in reply to marcuswatney)

Post #: 260

RE: Europe map? - 3/2/2008 11:29:17 PM

Froonp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney
I have this suggestion.� Correct me if I am wrong, but one of the weird things I recall about WiF is that partial Qattara hexes are impassable.� This gives a very odd feel to the desert war, especially since partial sea hexes are (of course) playable.� So my suggestion is to use the far better and naturalistic depiction you have created for the Qattara Depression straightaway, in MWiF1, but allow use of partial Qattara hexes, as is done in all other desert games.� Thus there is no change to the play of the game in the crucial area, but it does look soooooooo much better.

Well, I'd rather draw the Qattara Depression 1/3rd hex southward, so that the Suez hexrow is free of it.
If we say that partial hexes are not blocking movement, then there is little left of the Qattara depression.

Well, sorry for the double posting. I thought that the first one got lost.
Anyway, here is a drawing to support what I was proposing. A more acurate drawing, who respects the Qattara Depression hexes that we have in the WiF FE map, except one (the most NW one is now desert -- not a dramatic change).
Here, it is assumed that all hexes where QD is drawn are impassable and unable to stack a single air unit.

So, between what we have on the MWiF map and what I propose here, only the drawing changes, with 1 QT hex became simple desert. I think it is a good compromise.

Attachment (1)

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RE: Europe map? - 3/3/2008 12:09:33 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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Fine by me.

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Post #: 262

RE: Europe map? - 3/3/2008 1:48:02 AM

marcuswatney

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I personally prefer the first depiction (Post 257), and having partial Qattara hexes playable (full Qattara hexsides are of course completely impassable), because this observes standard wargaming conventions. The Qattara Depression is a lake with quicksand instead of water, so if you think of its edge as a 'shoreline' you can sense what I mean.

The unimportant hex 2SW Matruh becomes playable. This is useful, as it encourages the CW player to defend closer to the historical battle site, where he can be attacked from only two hexes.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 263

RE: Europe map? - 3/3/2008 2:59:49 AM

Norman42

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney

I personally prefer the first depiction (Post 257), and�having partial Qattara hexes playable (full Qattara hexsides are of course completely impassable), because this observes standard wargaming conventions.� The Qattara Depression is�a lake with quicksand instead of water, so if you think of its edge as a 'shoreline' you can sense what I mean.

Agree 100%. It should be drawn and represented as if it was a lake, which is essentially what it is. Just substitute sand for water.

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(in reply to marcuswatney)

Post #: 264

RE: Europe map? - 3/22/2008 12:57:52 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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Mike wanted to look at Europe next. So let's start with the United Kingdom.

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Post #: 265

RE: Europe map? - 3/22/2008 12:59:57 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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Scandinavia received a lot of attention. In particular, Bergen is now farther north than on the WIF FE map.

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Post #: 266

RE: Europe map? - 3/22/2008 1:01:42 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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North Cape, the Kola Peninsula, and the White Sea.

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Post #: 267

RE: Europe map? - 3/22/2008 1:04:17 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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Continuing the clockwise presentation. I trimmed the right edge here to fit within the 500 KB constraint for the forum. I'll do the rest when we get to the USSR proper.

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Post #: 268

RE: Europe map? - 3/22/2008 1:06:03 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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Still struggling with the 500 KB limit. We'll do Stalingrad as part of the USSR.

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Post #: 269

RE: Europe map? - 3/22/2008 1:06:49 PM

marcuswatney

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Is Lerwick a two-front port? It's odd the way the zone boundary skirts it timidly.

Surely Bergen should have direct access to the Norwegian Sea, else why would the German player ever base the Bismarck there in preference to, say, Tronheim?

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 270