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RE: US Internal lpolitics and Public reaction

 
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RE: US Internal lpolitics and Public reaction - 4/24/2007 2:02:09 PM   
herwin

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rafael Warsaw

Was a Confederate states a developed democracy with vote rights given to basicly everybody? Sure not. North was closer.

You know, theres always an establishment of some kind (we can call it a political system if we like). An internal threat to those ppl (political system of the country) positions - 1905 movement/so called 1905 revolution - forced Russia to seek for a peace with Japan to ease an internal situation. Trust me - They are at least that proud as americans are. INMHO - much more.

36 years later comunist establishment was threatened only by germans but by no means by internal affairs - so they fought to the death even with whole country burned to the ground and with uncounted millions of deaths.

There were an establishment in Czar/Comunist Russia there was one in Washington in 1940. ACW? Pres. Lincoln was always worried about elections. Whole pennsylvannia campaigne was all about incoming election. He was lucky, They have won at Gettyssburg (thanks to incoming elections? Union commanders have seen a wall behind them built by Washington ie: a line in the sand?)





Theoretically, but it was run as a military dictatorship.

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(in reply to Rafael Warsaw)
Post #: 31
RE: US Internal lpolitics and Public reaction - 4/24/2007 3:20:19 PM   
treespider


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I might refer everyone to "A long day's journey into war" by Stanley Weintraub...my writing in parens

"In the Senate the count was 82 to 0. Gerald Nye himself voted for war. Some isolationists could not return in time to cast ballots, but none would have voted nay. Some would call for prosecuting those culpable at Pearl Harbor, but the culprits intended were the politicians and military bureaucrats in Washington, not the bunglars in the field"

" It was difficult to keep anything secret in Washington. (Talking about the damage inflicted at PH) America First also had the facts, leaked by Senator Nye and others on the 9th after Secretary (of the Navy) Knox and Admiral Stark had conficentially revealed them in closed meeting of the Naval Affairs Committee. Ruth Sarles of the Washington office of America First reported to Robert K. Wood that one senator remarked as he left the secret session, "We would be lucky if we kept Hawaii." Eight battleships had been sunk or crippled, she reported; "half our effectives are wiped out." The government, she guessed, "will sit on the lid as long as possible." In one of the earliest conspiracy allegations, isolationist Senator Guy Gillette claimed to her that he had seen documents that established American advance knowledge of "the plan of attack." Most modern bombing planes and "all but seven percent of our ammunition," she was also told, had been shipped to hated England, leaving the US with only the resources for three weeks fighting. Still, there was no way to frighten or goad America First stalwarts into keeping the faith. Their cause was lost and the movement would self destruct. Ruth Sarles would need another job."


After December 7, 1941 the isolationist movement in the US was dead.

Part of the problem with the original posters questions lies in what the game allows for vs. history. The game looks solely at War in the Pacific and not at World War II in total. Remember were only seeing 30% of American output in the game.  If you want to what-if this then what if the Germans had not declared war on the US and what if the United States had decided to turn 70% of it muscle towrds Japan...but that is for another thread...

Back to the original post... Even if Hawaii were taken and India invaded and the early American Carriers were sunk ...Nothing has been accomplished that would have diminished the Americans capablity to wage war. Before December 7th 1941 the US had already laid down 6 Essex Class carriers and 2 Independence class Light Carriers and these were being constructed on the East coast of the United States - untouchable by the Japanese. 



< Message edited by treespider -- 4/24/2007 3:57:25 PM >


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Post #: 32
RE: US Internal lpolitics and Public reaction - 4/24/2007 3:38:56 PM   
treespider


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hueglin

Food for thought.

1814 - British forces march on Washington. At a brief battle on the road, known as the Battle of Bladensburg; the British forces defeat the American forces, who withdraw in disarray, thus opening the road to Washington. The British burn the White House and the Capitol, but the rest of Washington is saved by a strong rain storm. The British, under orders not to hold any territory, withdrew.
© 2000 MultiEducator, Inc. All rights reserved

One might expect that having the capital burned would result in a determination to fight to the end, but this war ended in a negotiated peace.


Apples and Oranges...

from Wiki...."The war had become a stalemate. Neither side had been successful in invasions designed to gain bargaining chips. (The U.S. never wanted to annex Canada, only to seize lands for bargaining over other issues.) The prewar issues of trade restraints and impressment were so closely tied to the war against Napoleon (now in exile) that they no longer mattered and were not mentioned. The Indian menace had been destroyed, ending a major cause of the war. Public opinion strongly desired peace and there was no reason to continue the war."

In World War II (and to this day for some in this country) the cassus belli never went away...talk to some elderly folks and they still have it out for the "Japs"

Also when compared to World War II the United States was a different nation - The United States in 1812 had only been a nation for all of 25-27 years... In addition the United States at this time was far from the industrial nation that it would become 50 years later. ... In addition the "heartland" of the modern US was still "Indian country at this time. The developed areas were all coastal cities and towns...


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Post #: 33
RE: US Internal lpolitics and Public reaction - 4/24/2007 3:55:59 PM   
Ian R

 

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Australia's foreign policy up to 1941 was wedded to the UK.  Australia never actually declared war in 1939 (or 41) - In 1939 PM Menzies solemnly announced that GB had declared war and we, therefore, were also at war.

He was voted out in August 41 and after a couple of months with Fadden ( a conservative) in the post, Curtin became prime minister. Curtin was labour party, a democratic socialist one with strong Irish Catholic roots. As a result much less wedded to the British Empire, but there was no chance of withdrawing from the war. Once the Pacific war started Curtin was more than willing to align us more closely with the US than the UK, for obvious reasons. Curtin insisted that the AIF be returned from the Middle East, a decision which proved crucial in the battles at Milne bay and on the Kokoda trail, Buna, Gona and Sanananda.

Curtin chose to take his military advice from Macarthur instead of Blamey, and after the desperate battles of the second half of 1942, when Australian (mostly) and US troops turned the IJA around in PNG, had no difficulty with the Australian Army moving into a supporting role as US troop numbers built up in SWPAC area.

If the US fights on, then so does Oz. If the US negotiated with the IJE, then so, by default, would we.

A purely military appreciation, emphasising logistic support is as follows.

As to an IJA invasion in 1942/3, the IJA would have found themselves facing a force the size of the CW 8th Army, including in that situation upwards of three fully mobilised armoured divisions and three AIF infantry divisions, perhaps one or two US motorised infantry divisions depending on when it happens, maybe more, PLUS the Militia forces - the equivalent of 5-7 further infantry divisions (but with a fair bit of MT). While these would have been "green", they did have the advantage of a lot of 40-45 year old officers and senior NCOs who were still fit and had the precious commodity of combat experience, in some cases about 3 years of it, who were well versed in the application of individual initiative in light infantry tactics.

Australian industry in 1942 was capable of producing sufficient quantities of rifles, MGs, and other infantry weapons, ammunition (in particular at a factory decentralised into the central west of NSW, way way south aand a mountain range away from the coast) and AC-1 Sentinel tanks, which whilst they were not much of a match for the European machines of the time would have dealt with the IJA's light tanks and tankettes. Again depending on timing of the imposition of any blockade, there may also have been some hundreds of Matildas, Stuarts, ad M-3 mediums available. Not sure about large calibre field artillery, but there were a lot of WW1 vintage 18lbers available (3.3 inch, 84 mm, range 10400 yards). Not sure about WW1 vintage 4.5 inch (114 mm) howitzers. The short 25lb gun was first produced in Australia (as a pack version of the famous gun howitzer for jungle use) in 1943; so availability in numbers again depends on timing and how well emergency measures worked in practice. So the artillery was comparable or better than the IJA's usual 75mm. Aircraft production was underway, as all WITPers know, but without US airpower the IJA would likely have air superiority. The only natural resource which would be problematical is oil, but such domestic production as there is was deep down in the South east where 90% of the population and industry are.  And we have plenty of horses and lots of grass.

The IJN may have been able to land troops in the north, but would need to strip other areas to find sufficient troops, and further overstretch their transport capacity. Note that landing in Darwin is not much good,  you go a few miles south and there is nothing there except cattle stations the size of Belgium. Its a dead end in trying to move North to South ( no railway link), and landing on the west coast is not going to be much good either. So they would have to land on the east coast where the bulk of the population is, and move south down it, but even though there is a narrow coastal plain much of the way, there are also a lot of very rugged going. So my assessment is that you would need about 20 IJA divisions (pulled from China or Manchuria), more artillery than they usually had, and tanks, a least a few regiments, to press forward, which is probably more than the IJN could supply. Which IIRC, was the IJN's message to the IJA when some planning on the subject was done in 1942, or maybe the message went the other way.

So we could keep the troops fighting, would burn everything when we retreated, blow up every bridge, smash the railway infastructure down the coast (where the IJA would get the locos and rolling stock to use it even if they repaired it is a significant question), evacuate the civilians, and leave cut off troops to fade into the hill country to wage guerilla war ( a battalion in the hills in Timor occupied the attention of an entire IJA division for about a year and then withdrew by sea) and make the IJA garrison everything.

The Brisbane line was not such a dumb idea. Professionals talk about logistics, etc.

While you could say that if the IJE was able to devote all or most of its resources to an invasion of Australia they would win out after a few years, that is not a real world scenario.

And while the 20 IJA divisions are bogged down down here, the smart strategy for the US would be to make sure enough stuff was sent here to keep those 20 divisions occupied  - and cause the IJN to have to devote more resources to supplying them - while they assembled the historical fleet of Essexes, Clevelands, Fletchers et al, and ploughed a path straight through the Marshalls, Marianas, and Carolines back to the Philippines.

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RE: US Internal lpolitics and Public reaction - 4/24/2007 4:33:05 PM   
Feinder


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I think if you (not addressing anyone) want to believe that the US ever considered quitting WW2 during "the dark days of 1942", you have but find any sort of documentation by either the Chiefs of Staff or the Cabinet/Congress that brings up discussion of throwing in the towel.

Most documentation from WW2 is freely availabele thru the internet and is but a Google away.

Consider on the other hand that, even DURING those "dark days of 1942", during the collapse of Malaya, SRA, New Britian, New Guinea, and the Pacific islands, the Joint Chiefs were already planning the invasion/liberation of the Philipines/Rabaul/Marshalls, despite their actual lack of materiale to do so.

I agree with whomever said it earlier in this thread that, the idea of war-weary US that would simply give in after a beating and allow the Axis powers to retain their conquests, were merely the delusional fantasies of the Axis Leaders.

Again, if you think the US ever considered just quitting, find the documentation to support it.

-F-

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Post #: 35
RE: US Internal lpolitics and Public reaction - 4/24/2007 4:54:37 PM   
herwin

 

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I'm not sure how that differs from what I wrote.

All I'm pointing out is that the sneak attack on Pearl Harbor was probably good for two years support, after which the administration would have been in a similar position vis-a-vis Japan to where it would have been at the start if Japan had declared war in a more civilised fashion. Eliminate the threat to Hawaii, Alaska, etc., and the Allied leadership would not have had quite as much support for going after Japan.

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Post #: 36
RE: US Internal lpolitics and Public reaction - 4/24/2007 4:57:18 PM   
treespider


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I suppose I could accept an argument that ...

if the Germans had subdued the Soviet Union in 1941/early 1942 and...
if the Japanese had destroyed the American carrier fleet at Pearl Harbor and...
if the Japanese conquered Hawaii and...
if the Japanese had disabled the Panama Canal and...
if the Japanese had conquered relevant parts of Alaska and...
if the Japanese had subdued India and...
if the Germans had subdued England...

then maybe the US would have negotiated a peace...

However there are a lot of if's for that to happen.

The problem with any sort of discussion about the Pacific War is that you cannot take it out of the context of the Global World War...

< Message edited by treespider -- 4/24/2007 5:02:45 PM >


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RE: US Internal lpolitics and Public reaction - 4/24/2007 5:43:19 PM   
Mike Scholl

 

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Or to put it more simply..., "If the Sun had started rising in the West..."

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RE: US Internal lpolitics and Public reaction - 4/24/2007 6:45:24 PM   
Vetamur

 

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I will give it a shot..

Here is where I think the US would have NOT sued for terms but called a ceasefire..

IF.. 1) its carriers had been at PH or been hunted down and sunk fairly soon after..

IF  2) the British had made a peace in February/March 42 as apparently had been briefly discussed

IF 3) Japan when "liberating" its conquered areas had in fact actually "liberated" them. If Japan had walked into all those territories with a plan to make them equals or near equals in a true "Asia for Asians" scheme.. so that if the US had invaded, local populations from Papua New Guinea to the Phillipines also fought against them..

then..maybe just maybe the US might have seen the situation as sort of a fait acompli and found a way to work out a ceasefire.

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RE: US Internal lpolitics and Public reaction - 4/24/2007 7:04:05 PM   
moses

 

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Ignoring all the emotional considerations I think the unconditional surrender demand was more a result of the momentum of raising such large military forces.

By the time the war was viewed as clearly lost by the axis powers the allied war machine was just reaching its full potential and could completely dominate the axis. Since these allied forces were created at great expence and could not be maintained in peacetime there was great incentive to use them to decisively defeat all opposition prior to demobalization.

So the Japanese had little negotiating leverage in 1944/45.

The only hope would seem to be for Japan to win a decisive victory early. Say they win Midway big and then realize that they are going to lose the war!!! So they offer peace on very reasonable terms giving back most conquered territory. Of course not much chance of that as imagine the "victory disaese" after them wining a Midway.


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RE: US Internal lpolitics and Public reaction - 4/24/2007 7:29:09 PM   
herwin

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: moses

Ignoring all the emotional considerations I think the unconditional surrender demand was more a result of the momentum of raising such large military forces.

By the time the war was viewed as clearly lost by the axis powers the allied war machine was just reaching its full potential and could completely dominate the axis. Since these allied forces were created at great expence and could not be maintained in peacetime there was great incentive to use them to decisively defeat all opposition prior to demobalization.

So the Japanese had little negotiating leverage in 1944/45.

The only hope would seem to be for Japan to win a decisive victory early. Say they win Midway big and then realize that they are going to lose the war!!! So they offer peace on very reasonable terms giving back most conquered territory. Of course not much chance of that as imagine the "victory disaese" after them wining a Midway.




My scenario assumes that Japan opens with a declaration of war and runs through the SRA, but doesn't give America as big a reason to come back fast. Germany declares like it actually did. The WPD then decides to go after Germany, but King doesn't have the 'revenge' motivation on his side to keep the Navy strong in the Pacific. Then instead of 70% of war production going to the ETO, it's 90%, and the Pacific is like Burma.

BTW, the Navy war planning was a bit unrealistic, and the engineers running the surface through train was planning to take the eastern mandates whether or not we had the resources to take Truk and Mindanao. So the US Battle Fleet meets the KB off Kwajalein. Care to make any bets on the outcome? And since our hotheads walked into it, rather than the IJN sneak attacking us at Pearl, it's both more final and more embarrassing.

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(in reply to moses)
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RE: US Internal lpolitics and Public reaction - 4/24/2007 8:17:00 PM   
sven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Pearl Harbor cinched it. The US isn't capable of forgiving sneak attacks...



If only we were more magnanimous and gracious like the Axis were reknowned for being.....



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RE: US Internal lpolitics and Public reaction - 4/24/2007 8:33:36 PM   
Terminus


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Oh, I'm sorry, did I hear a little fly buzzing around? Did it go buzz-buzz-buzz?

Go back to circling Doggie's empty head...

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RE: US Internal lpolitics and Public reaction - 4/24/2007 8:36:09 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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Terminus, Sven, this thread is not an invitation to continue your feud. This thread was doing fine in the WITP forum, but was somewhat off-topic for there, so we moved it here. Let's keep the signal to noise ratio where it belongs. You've had your exchange, now get the heck back on topic.

Regards,

- Erik

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Post #: 44
RE: US Internal lpolitics and Public reaction - 4/24/2007 8:58:58 PM   
sven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Terminus, Sven, this thread is not an invitation to continue your feud. This thread was doing fine in the WITP forum, but was somewhat off-topic for there, so we moved it here. Let's keep the signal to noise ratio where it belongs. You've had your exchange, now get the heck back on topic.

Regards,

- Erik



Indeed, as the subject matter is so serious and so likely I will give it all the attention it merits.

We are reaching for Japanese victory scenarios through forcing the US to the table. Had Godzilla been born 15 years earlier and not had a sense of Rage concerning Tokyo *perhaps* they could have razed enough of the US to make a difference. The main hope having to be that we did not somehow get King Kong to lay down his anger at US Army Air Forces and engage Gorzilla in a serious fight through the area west of the Rockies.

My Allied sources tell me that the Japanese were guilty of not properly preparing Gorzilla's Fugu order at a kobe steak house and the rest as they say is, thankfully history.

all the best,
sven

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RE: US Internal lpolitics and Public reaction - 4/24/2007 9:06:53 PM   
robpost3


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wow! Why don'tcha shake the tree a lttle!
quote:

I wonder If there was any way to press US into peace talks with Japan?

as long as it was Japan in the hotseat sure!
quote:

In our games (If we are lucky) we can press US really hard like:
BBs gone
Hawaii gone
PH under blocade
OZ treatened
Phillipines lost
Lots of other fleet assets lost
Carriers Lost so West Coast is threatened
New Guinea Lost/OZ threatened
India Invaded/jewel in an imperial crown seriously threatened
Etc.

It still would be impossible to launch a land invasion, America can just "button up" and the enemy can beat themselves against either mountain range...
quote:

I would like to know Your opinion about this:
Was it ever possible to press US into peace talks ie IF US carriers were lost at Midway, Midway taken, Hawaii threatened?
nah, even with The Crown gone and ANZAC, India, there was no real collateral damage to GNP which IMOO would still out produce bearing in mind that the Axis would need to repair factories in newly occupied territories first to cath up to production numbers, the Allies would be increasing prod., R&D, Canada and the Soviets wouldnt be taking a nap, I dearsay they would prefer Goose Stepping to Sushi bars so the sleeping bear and Nanuck of the north would bear down as well. PH under blockade would waste assists on the Axis side with no effect. NZ would a horrendous ground war, as would Australia, just not enough Grunts on the Axis side...
These would make for some intereseting scenarios...
I remeber playing the sega? or nintendo version of PTO and one of the only ways to slow the AXIS decay was not to waste assets hopping the pond and concetrate closer to home and quell papau new guinea, port morseby etc...quicker...best result was a stalemate and R&D then won the day...
Thanks Rafael nice post took my mind off some things today



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Post #: 46
RE: US Internal lpolitics and Public reaction - 4/24/2007 9:15:14 PM   
wdolson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider
Part of the problem with the original posters questions lies in what the game allows for vs. history. The game looks solely at War in the Pacific and not at World War II in total. Remember were only seeing 30% of American output in the game. If you want to what-if this then what if the Germans had not declared war on the US and what if the United States had decided to turn 70% of it muscle towrds Japan...but that is for another thread...


Very true.

In the early months of the war, the bulk of available resources were poured into the Pacific. The goal was to stabilize the situation there before focusing on Europe. The US limited ability for major offensive until the Essexes were delivered anyway.

After Midway, the situation began to stabilize and resources started flowing into the European campaign. Some aircraft that had been diverted from British orders, such as the LB-30s were returned. Others were withdrawn. By the end of 1942, all B-26s would be withdrawn from the Pacific theater and earmarked for the ETO and MTO.

The US would have put priority on the Pacific until it stabilized. If Japan had been more successful in the early going, winning Midway for example, the build up for the ETO and MTO would have been delayed. Operation Torch (the invasion of Morocco) may not have happened because those resources would have gone to the Pacific.

If the US had lost all it's pre-war carriers early in the war, it's offensive capabilities would have been severely limited for a while, but everything would have gone into reinforcing and holding the line. It's almost certain that Japan would have been stopped somewhere by late 1942, even if the KB hadn't been destroyed and the USN carriers had. At worse, the turning point would have come in early 1943.

US superior production and larger manpower base was going to have an effect eventually.

Bill

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Post #: 47
RE: US Internal lpolitics and Public reaction - 4/24/2007 9:32:48 PM   
wdolson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R
The Brisbane line was not such a dumb idea. Professionals talk about logistics, etc.

While you could say that if the IJE was able to devote all or most of its resources to an invasion of Australia they would win out after a few years, that is not a real world scenario.

And while the 20 IJA divisions are bogged down down here, the smart strategy for the US would be to make sure enough stuff was sent here to keep those 20 divisions occupied - and cause the IJN to have to devote more resources to supplying them - while they assembled the historical fleet of Essexes, Clevelands, Fletchers et al, and ploughed a path straight through the Marshalls, Marianas, and Carolines back to the Philippines.


Interesting stuff about Australian logistics. I only knew a little of it.

If the Japanese had been dumb enough to invade Australia, it would have given the US somewhere to send troops to fight without endangering the small carrier fleet. A few US divisions along with the Australians could have bogged down the Japanese army in Australia long enough for the Essexes to be ready.

With McArthur locked in his own struggle (I'm sure he would have commanded the army in Australia) and with no need for the Navy there, Nimitz would have been free to execute his Central Pacific strategy. Occupying the Marshalls and Marianas in 1943 and early 1944 along with either Luzon or Formosa would have isolated everything south of there. The bulk of Japan's fighting force and resources would be cut off.

The invasion of Formosa didn't happen in the real war because a Japanese offensive in China had made opening up the Chinese coast impossible. To invade Australia, Japan would have had to strip China, and would not have been able to control as much territory there. With the Allies on Formosa, that would have allowed the Chinese army to be supplied by sea with the capture of one port along the coast. It would have also completed a solid line of airpower from Hawaii to China, completely severing Japan's supply lines.

The war may have been over by late 1944 or early 1945.

Bill

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Post #: 48
RE: US Internal lpolitics and Public reaction - 4/24/2007 11:05:29 PM   
Williamb

 

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Basically your making the same argument that the Japanese did during WWII. That if they made war painful enough for the US the US would just give up and let the Japanese keep what they had invaded.


Its that same kind of denial that created the Kamikazis and caused two A bombs to be dropped. Utter refusal to believe anything but their own propagada.

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RE: US Internal lpolitics and Public reaction - 4/25/2007 1:53:40 AM   
mjk428

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rafael Warsaw
I would like to know Your opinion about this:
Was it ever possible to press US into peace talks ie IF US carriers were lost at Midway, Midway taken, Hawaii threatened?


Possible of course but extremely unlikely after the Pearl Harbor attack and the relative weakness of Japan.

quote:

How about OZ? Was it ever possible/considered by OZ Gov. to sign a peace with Japs If OZ was cut? Well we know that it was not possible to really cut OZ for a long time but some events, sometimes even minor, can influence public opinion waaaaay too strong.


Again, I find it difficult to believe OZ would capitulate to an enemy that lacked the power to conquer them. Maybe if they were abandoned by the other Allies but there's no reason to believe that would happen.

quote:

How US and OZ Goverments of those times have acted/reacted to public?

Im looking for some serious thought from You.

Ah, we players know that 43 WILL come, US Gov knew it too but sometimes its just imposible to convince a group of people even to something more obvious. This is a weakness of Democracy (which I Love and Cherish). Peace.


These governments were not nearly as constrained by public opinion as we are now. It couldn't be ignored but it could be kept at bay by keeping the people in the dark for years if need be. FDR was revered and trusted. The US would have withstood many more years of hardship on his word alone. He owned the mob and was quite capable at handling the press and the loyal opposition. I don't think the US would have negotiated a settlement with Japan post Pearl Harbor as long as FDR was alive. I don't think they'd have fared any better with Truman. Out of the frying pan and into the fire.

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(in reply to Rafael Warsaw)
Post #: 50
RE: US Internal lpolitics and Public reaction - 4/25/2007 1:57:43 AM   
mdiehl

 

Posts: 5998
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline
quote:

One might expect that having the capital burned would result in a determination to fight to the end, but this war ended in a negotiated peace.


There was nothing "negotiated" about it. The UK agreed to US demands to cease stopping and searching American vessels, to stop pressing American sailors, and abided by their agreement, and the UK paid reparations for damage to the Chesapeake. At the time of the agreement, there was only one operational British force in the United States-- in the south -- and it was soundly defeated in an effort to take New Orleans and thereby control the lower Mississippi.

< Message edited by mdiehl -- 4/25/2007 2:02:48 AM >


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Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

Didn't we have this conversation already?

(in reply to herwin)
Post #: 51
RE: US Internal lpolitics and Public reaction - 4/25/2007 1:58:26 AM   
Rafael Warsaw


Posts: 202
Joined: 2/20/2007
Status: offline
This is how I started this thread:

I wonder If there was any way to press US into peace talks with Japan?

In our games (If we are lucky) we can press US really hard like:
BBs gone
Hawaii gone
PH under blocade
OZ treatened
Phillipines lost
Lots of other fleet assets lost
Carriers Lost so West Coast is threatened
New Guinea Lost/OZ threatened
India Invaded/jewel in an imperial crown seriously threatened
Etc.

And all in about first 3-5 months of the war. A hit after a Hit after a blow.

I would like to know Your opinion about this:
Was it ever possible to press US into peace talks ie IF US carriers were lost at Midway, Midway taken, Hawaii threatened?

How about OZ? Was it ever possible/considered by OZ Gov. to sign a peace with Japs If OZ was cut? Well we know that it was not possible to really cut OZ for a long time but some events, sometimes even minor, can influence public opinion waaaaay too strong.

How US and OZ Goverments of those times have acted/reacted to public?

If the reason I have started this thread is still NOT clear to somebody I can try to write this again by BLOCK LETTERS but it looks like some ppls do not understand a written words so I can even try to use common ICONS.






(in reply to herwin)
Post #: 52
RE: US Internal lpolitics and Public reaction - 4/25/2007 2:10:24 AM   
mdiehl

 

Posts: 5998
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline
quote:

Was it ever possible to press US into peace talks ie IF US carriers were lost at Midway, Midway taken, Hawaii threatened?


No. For the following reasons.

1. Threatening Hawaii would have led quickly to a substantial defeat of the IJNs major CV elements. Japan did not have the logistical capability of sustaining that sort of interdiction, and had they tried the battle readiness of the elements assigned the task would quickly (within weeks) deteriorated to null. So "threaten" was not in the cards. The only choice Japan had in the matter was "invade Hawaii" or "stay away from Hawaii." Invading would likewise have been a disaster for the Japanese, as they did not have the support elements to protect a logistical pipeline to the Hawaiian Islands. The vulnerability of the Japanese support elements endeavoring to sustain a ground force in Hawaii would have been akin to leaving a wad of cash on a distant park bench on a crowded day and hoping that you could run 300 yards in time to catch any person who might take it.

2. Taking Midway would have availed nothing. Most Americans had never heard of Midway and its strategic importance to the US was nil. Americans certainly did not start clamoring Roosevelt for peace on the loss of Guam, Wake, or the Phillippines, so Midway atoll wasn't going to make a rat's behind of a difference.

3. Loss of US CVs at Midway. Under a best case scenario Japan would have lost at least two CVs in that battle anyhow. When you consider the replacement rate of US CVs as opposed to Japanese CVs it becomes apparent that a clean sweep at Midway would not have shifted the strategic balance of power.

I will add that the whole business of "botched timing of declaration of war" is a red herring. Had the Japanese consul delivered a declaration of war before the raid arrived no one in the US would have been less angry. American anger was not about the protocols of war being violated. It was about Japan organizing and launching the attack (which had to set sail weeks before) even as they made pretense of negotiating a solution to the impasse. The only way the "protocols theory" works is if at the time of the Japanese Declaration of War, Strike Force One is in the Marshalls or in Japan.

The implication is that if the simulation envisions ANY form of surprise attack, no negotiated peace should be on the table.

< Message edited by mdiehl -- 4/25/2007 2:18:28 AM >


_____________________________

Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

Didn't we have this conversation already?

(in reply to Rafael Warsaw)
Post #: 53
RE: US Internal lpolitics and Public reaction - 4/25/2007 2:14:34 AM   
wyrmmy


Posts: 214
Joined: 7/19/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rafael Warsaw

This is how I started this thread:

I wonder If there was any way to press US into peace talks with Japan?

In our games (If we are lucky) we can press US really hard like:
BBs gone
Hawaii gone
PH under blocade
OZ treatened
Phillipines lost
Lots of other fleet assets lost
Carriers Lost so West Coast is threatened
New Guinea Lost/OZ threatened
India Invaded/jewel in an imperial crown seriously threatened
Etc.

And all in about first 3-5 months of the war. A hit after a Hit after a blow.

I would like to know Your opinion about this:
Was it ever possible to press US into peace talks ie IF US carriers were lost at Midway, Midway taken, Hawaii threatened?

How about OZ? Was it ever possible/considered by OZ Gov. to sign a peace with Japs If OZ was cut? Well we know that it was not possible to really cut OZ for a long time but some events, sometimes even minor, can influence public opinion waaaaay too strong.

How US and OZ Goverments of those times have acted/reacted to public?

If the reason I have started this thread is still NOT clear to somebody I can try to write this again by BLOCK LETTERS but it looks like some ppls do not understand a written words so I can even try to use common ICONS.









No. Simple enough?

(in reply to Rafael Warsaw)
Post #: 54
RE: US Internal lpolitics and Public reaction - 4/25/2007 5:59:35 AM   
Zap


Posts: 3639
Joined: 12/6/2004
From: LAS VEGAS TAKE A CHANCE
Status: offline
mjk428,
You said, FDR "owned the mob" He really did??


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Post #: 55
RE: US Internal lpolitics and Public reaction - 4/25/2007 9:51:31 AM   
Ian R

 

Posts: 3420
Joined: 8/1/2000
From: Cammeraygal Country
Status: offline
 
"If the Japanese had been dumb enough to invade Australia, it would have given the US somewhere to send troops to fight without endangering the small carrier fleet. A few US divisions along with the Australians could have bogged down the Japanese army in Australia long enough for the Essexes to be ready. "

Bill, the other point is that the IJA had a low level of motorisation, lower than the contemporary German or Soviet semi-motorised armies (each very roughly about 20% motorised, otherwise muscle powered).  The Australian army was not fully motorised in the sense that every division had its MT in its TOE, and didn't have the level of MT available in the US army, but compared to the IJA, who still had horses in their TOE, had plenty.

Add to that the vast distances to be overcome  - road distances using 2007 roads (which are lots better than the winding two lane highways of 1942) [not direct line as the crow flies]

Townsville to Sydney: 2340 km

Townsville to Melbourne: 2710 km

Townsville to Adelaide: 3214 km

Note Sydney to Melbourne is 873 km, but coming from Brisbane you can cut across central NSW along the way.

in comparison: [straight line]

Bonn to Brest (Fr) 876 km

Warsaw to Moscow - 1133 km

Cairo to Tripoli - 1744 km

Without a properly function railway, and a lot of motor transport they didn't have, the IJA could not have effectively operated away from the coast and its naval support . The scale of forces involved, would not be more than about 10% of those engaged on the eastern front in 1942, and although the action would be concentrated along a small number of transport corridors, the unit frontages would be comparatively huge. The motorised movement of US and Australian infantry would have given the IJA nightmares.

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"I am Alfred"

(in reply to Zap)
Post #: 56
RE: US Internal lpolitics and Public reaction - 4/25/2007 8:34:54 PM   
mjk428

 

Posts: 1944
Joined: 6/15/2002
From: Western USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zap

mjk428,
You said, FDR "owned the mob" He really did??



Well, he was elected four times.

He had tremendous support amongst the poor and working class. He gave regular "Fireside Chats" on the radio, which was how the public got most of their information & entertainment. He took office in '33, so by the end of Jan. '42 he was working on his 10th year as prez. For an 18 year old on his way to "fight japs" he was the only prez he really knew. He could get away with things, like 4 terms, that no other prez had dared to even try before. Whatever else anyone might think of him, he was a master politician.


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(in reply to Zap)
Post #: 57
RE: US Internal lpolitics and Public reaction - 4/25/2007 11:48:35 PM   
Zap


Posts: 3639
Joined: 12/6/2004
From: LAS VEGAS TAKE A CHANCE
Status: offline
Ok, you were saying mob, as in, the whole group of Americans. I thought you were saying mob, as in, Mafia. My misunderstanding.

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(in reply to mjk428)
Post #: 58
RE: US Internal lpolitics and Public reaction - 4/26/2007 3:07:44 AM   
mjk428

 

Posts: 1944
Joined: 6/15/2002
From: Western USA
Status: offline


That meaning hadn't occured to me, though it should have.

Yeah, I meant it in "the mob loves Caesar" context.

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Post #: 59
RE: US Internal lpolitics and Public reaction - 4/26/2007 5:18:34 AM   
sven


Posts: 10293
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: brickyard
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zap

Ok, you were saying mob, as in, the whole group of Americans. I thought you were saying mob, as in, Mafia. My misunderstanding.



the argument could be made if one looks at the incestuous intertwining of the mob and machine politics, especially in places like NY and Chi-town.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by sven -- 10/1/2008 10:12:46 PM >


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Post #: 60
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