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First Impressions - 6/15/2007 5:21:38 AM   
Montbrun


Posts: 1498
Joined: 2/7/2001
From: Raleigh, NC, USA
Status: offline 		Just some initial observations:

1) Movement Continuation - It seems that if you move a unit 1 hex, or it's movement limit, once you de-select the unit, it can no longer move, or attack. Since there is no stacking, and we cannot combine several units for one attack, it would be nice to be able to move a unit, then come back to it to finish it's move, or attack with that unit. (Don't deselect a unit you're moving, until it's where you want it to be!)

2) Only Destroyer units should be able to attack subs. I'm not sure how to counter-balance this with subs attacking capital ships and carriers - maybe a higher defensive value for those units.

3) Once a Leader is attached to a unit, is there a way to reassign him? Or are you stuck with that leader attached to a unit until the unit is destroyed?

Awesome so far - Kudos!

Brad
Post #: 1
RE: First Impressions - 6/15/2007 7:22:33 AM   
TheHellPatrol


Posts: 1588
Joined: 7/3/2004
Status: offline 		Been playing for a couple hours and here are my observations:
If you have ever played Panzer General you will have no trouble playing after a glance at the manual. A couple things were a little sketchy as mentioned above...you can re-assign leaders but i haven't figured out how yet after accidentally putting Manstein on a garrison. The manual doesn't say but apparently you can only put leaders on a unit in a city. Next game i'll be prepared. Also, as mentioned above, there is no undo orders button so if you move a unit and select another your done...period. It can be easy to forget to attack when your surrounding the enemy. No big deal with practice i suppose.
The game in my eyes is an Uber Panzer General, PG with added strategic options/rules...which is a good thing if you don't mind the feeling you've done this before. I am perfectly happy to have it as is, strategic bombing...naval warfare and the very cool convoy system which makes submarines fun and rewarding to use. There is no learning curve, just the time to learn/experiment with the myriad of research options available.
I have encountered no ctd's and right now i am only wishing for two little things: an on screen button to cycle thru units, it can be tedious later in the game to keep reaching for the page up/down buttons. Second, the music is a little blah...That's it. It's a keeper for sure, i look forward to turning the map the Axis color.

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Post #: 2
RE: First Impressions - 6/15/2007 8:08:49 AM   
bssybeep


Posts: 237
Joined: 6/5/2007
Status: offline 		A few more observations:
*I'm playing as the Axis and several battleships and an aircraft carrier sunk my sub!  I can understand the carrier (airpower and all) but the battleships?  I would think they wouldn't have the ability to attack subs.
*When accessing the force pool to place new units, I cannot select a specific unit to place.  ie. it's a FIFO (first in first out) queue.  So if I happen to be on the Eastern Front part of the map and want to place my tank corps, if my infantry corps sceduled for the western front is first on the list, I'll need to scrolll over to the western front place the new unit and scroll back to the eastern front to place my tank corps.
*can we rename our units?  That was one of the cool parts of PG.
*we definitely need an undo key.

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Post #: 3
RE: First Impressions - 6/15/2007 9:16:54 AM   
Rob Gjessing


Posts: 525
Joined: 1/27/2003
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline 		Got to tell you Im not that impressed with this.. which is disappointing because I really really really wanted to like it.  I only found out about this game a few days ago.. and whilst waiting for it to be released I downloaded the demo of SC2 - which was good but also had its faults.  I was hopeful that this game would be as good as SC2 if not better.  Sure it looks prettier then SC2.. but there is so much missing from this game... where is the diplomacy?  Is it as simple as if you declare war on someone then then side against you?  Der.. thats pretty obvious.. can you put pressure on countries to try and influence them? 

Maybe Im selling this game a little short.. as I have only had a quick look at it.. so I hope I am wrong and it does have some more depth.  Is there more to this and I havent found it yet?

I also agree with most of the comments above.. I dont like the idea that once you leave a unit you can move it again..




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Post #: 4
RE: First Impressions - 6/15/2007 9:27:40 AM   
cdbeck


Posts: 1374
Joined: 8/16/2005
From: Indiana
Status: offline 		So far, I am liking what I have seen. I "played" the tutorial as my learning game, and the AI is a bit weak in it, so I can't really comment on how the real AI plays. The combat is nice and simple, research seems dynamic and certainly allows for specialization depending on your strategy (if you try to research everything, you will have far less resources for units and will end up having slower research overall). Some of the randomness for research may cause some strategic problems (you can focus, but it isn't 100%, and I can see how an accidental breakthrough in Fixed Defenses could really irritate an Axis player early in the game).

I really like the air combat, quite nice. Haven't yet gotten to experiment with the subs, I figured out what the convoys were right around the point that UK destroyers, BB's and CV's found me (despite being the tutorial AI, the ships still give you a run for your money). ASAIK, countries join their respective sides according to historical dates. However, you can issue a DOW to any country on the board. So if you really want the Axis to attack Spain or Switzerland (I never did like that neutral blob in GGWAW), then go ahead. I agree with the undo button thing, as you sometimes need to move a unit to see if a "hidden" river might give you negative combat modifiers. I'm a little perplexed at the repair system, as it seems a unit can be repaired even if next to an enemy unit (if I recall PnzGen only allowed you to repair if you were at least a space away, at least this is what Fantasy General allowed). I'm not sure I like the ability to insta-reinforce, even in close proximity. Sure it is expensive and takes down unit quality, but it leads to very very long battles over capital cities.

Oh, and France falls like a deck of cards... and Italy's troops might as well be made of paper. So, all in all, the game is pretty accurate.

SoM


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Post #: 5
RE: First Impressions - 6/15/2007 9:54:51 AM   
JudgeDredd


Posts: 8573
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
Status: offline 		ffs Matrix!!!!!  I only just bought two games from you!!! She'll kill me!

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Post #: 6
RE: First Impressions - 6/15/2007 10:06:43 AM   
e_barkmann


Posts: 1307
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From: Adelaide, Australia
Status: offline 		but...you ARE the law.... ?




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Post #: 7
RE: First Impressions - 6/15/2007 10:09:13 AM   
JudgeDredd


Posts: 8573
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
Status: offline 		Yes...but only outside the walls of my house. I don't mind saying I am under the thumb....funny, because in every other walk of life, I am...erm...respected (kind of)...but in my house, I definitely do not do the pistol whipping!

< Message edited by JudgeDredd -- 6/15/2007 10:30:03 AM >

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Post #: 8
RE: First Impressions - 6/15/2007 10:15:29 AM   
bssybeep


Posts: 237
Joined: 6/5/2007
Status: offline 		ugh, something needs to be done about sub combat.  Playing as the Axis as soon as I attack a convoy with my subs, destroyers, battleships, and carriers swarm out of port and sink my subs!  Kind of defeats the purpose of subs (remember they are supposed to be stealthy) if the enemy can find you anytime they want and send everything out to get you.  Also it's just not right that battleships and carriers can sink subs.

Given the above I do like how convoys are represented and the game is addictive.

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Post #: 9
RE: First Impressions - 6/15/2007 1:28:02 PM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		play with the fog on , and then take your subs out of the reaction zone around England.. I am having a blast sneaking around and shooting up stuff. after Egypt falls and the suez you also get to move the ITalian navy in, just in time for the YAnks!

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Post #: 10
RE: First Impressions - 6/15/2007 2:45:20 PM   
Titanwarrior89


Posts: 3283
Joined: 8/28/2003
From: arkansas
Status: offline 		HAhahahaah.............Good one Chris
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris Merchant

but...you ARE the law.... ?






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Post #: 11
RE: First Impressions - 6/15/2007 3:29:27 PM   
e_barkmann


Posts: 1307
Joined: 4/18/2000
From: Adelaide, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

Yes...but only outside the walls of my house. I don't mind saying I am under the thumb....funny, because in every other walk of life, I am...erm...respected (kind of)...but in my house, I definitely do not do the pistol whipping!


I hear you, brother

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Post #: 12
RE: First Impressions - 6/15/2007 4:15:18 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
quote:

2) Only Destroyer units should be able to attack subs. I'm not sure how to counter-balance this with subs attacking capital ships and carriers - maybe a higher defensive value for those units.


I think it's assumed that capital ship fleets have a few smaller ships along with them, just not as many as are in the lighter fleets. The ratings do reflect that capital ships are significantly worse at attacking subs than destroyers are, IIRC.

quote:

3) Once a Leader is attached to a unit, is there a way to reassign him? Or are you stuck with that leader attached to a unit until the unit is destroyed?


Yes, absolutely, though it took me a sec to figure this out too. Once you've attached a leader to a unit, when you click on that unit and select it you'll see a small image of the leader's portrait in the unit info on the bottom. Click on the little red "X" in the corner of that picture of the leader to detach him and reattach him elsewhere. Doing that will cost two production points and put him back in the queue to reattach next turn.

quote:

Awesome so far - Kudos!


Glad you're enjoying it! Kudos to Johan and Slitherine for a fun and addictive strategy game.

Regards,

- Erik


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Post #: 13
RE: First Impressions - 6/15/2007 4:16:10 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHellPatrol
naval warfare and the very cool convoy system which makes submarines fun and rewarding to use.


Have to say this is one of my favorite little innovations in this title, convoy warfare really becomes its own mini-game.


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Post #: 14
RE: First Impressions - 6/15/2007 4:18:49 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bssybeep
*I'm playing as the Axis and several battleships and an aircraft carrier sunk my sub!  I can understand the carrier (airpower and all) but the battleships?  I would think they wouldn't have the ability to attack subs.


They are much worse than destroyers at doing it, but think of these units as fleets or squadrons where the capital ship fleets will still have some escorts.

quote:

*When accessing the force pool to place new units, I cannot select a specific unit to place.  ie. it's a FIFO (first in first out) queue.  So if I happen to be on the Eastern Front part of the map and want to place my tank corps, if my infantry corps sceduled for the western front is first on the list, I'll need to scrolll over to the western front place the new unit and scroll back to the eastern front to place my tank corps.


This is also on my wish list.

quote:

*can we rename our units?  That was one of the cool parts of PG.


Sorry, that's not part of this one unfortunately, though I know it was on the wish list.

quote:

*we definitely need an undo key.


I guess I can see the need, though I personally haven't found it nearly as necessary in this game as in some more complex titles. I just write off a bad move to my subordinates misunderstanding the clear genius of my orders.


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Post #: 15
RE: First Impressions - 6/15/2007 4:21:43 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		Rob,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rob Gjessing
Is it as simple as if you declare war on someone then then side against you?  Der.. thats pretty obvious.. can you put pressure on countries to try and influence them?


Yes, diplomacy just isn't part of this design, much as with the original GGWAW. You can declare war, but you can't pressure and countries join you based on events rather than any kind of diplomatic spending. I can see that being disappointing to those who enjoy the diplomatic side of things, but it does keep the game focused on combat, research and production.

quote:

Maybe Im selling this game a little short.. as I have only had a quick look at it.. so I hope I am wrong and it does have some more depth.  Is there more to this and I havent found it yet?


Well, I think there's plenty of depth of strategy, just not in diplomacy. Pretty much everything else is in there - the convoy war, oil and resources, manpower, production and leadership, strategic bombing, etc.

Regards,

- Erik

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Post #: 16
RE: First Impressions - 6/15/2007 4:23:18 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Son_of_Montfort
I'm a little perplexed at the repair system, as it seems a unit can be repaired even if next to an enemy unit (if I recall PnzGen only allowed you to repair if you were at least a space away, at least this is what Fantasy General allowed). I'm not sure I like the ability to insta-reinforce, even in close proximity. Sure it is expensive and takes down unit quality, but it leads to very very long battles over capital cities.


Point taken, though it does seem to limit the amount of reinforcement you can do when next to an enemy. I don't seem to be able to reinforce to full strength unless I'm away from the front lines.

Regards,

- Erik

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Post #: 17
RE: First Impressions - 6/15/2007 4:24:50 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bssybeep
ugh, something needs to be done about sub combat.  Playing as the Axis as soon as I attack a convoy with my subs, destroyers, battleships, and carriers swarm out of port and sink my subs!  Kind of defeats the purpose of subs (remember they are supposed to be stealthy) if the enemy can find you anytime they want and send everything out to get you.  Also it's just not right that battleships and carriers can sink subs.
Given the above I do like how convoys are represented and the game is addictive.


Hm, I'm not having those same problems unless I get too close to land masses. You want to first of all build some more subs and keep them concentrated as a wolf pack so that you aren't just nibbling away at a convoy and having to hang around where destroyers can find you. Second, try to attack them in the middle of the ocean rather than near land and you should find far fewer escorts at least in the early war. See my other posts on battleships and carriers.


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Post #: 18
RE: First Impressions - 6/15/2007 4:59:41 PM   
Dave Ferguson

 

Posts: 302
Joined: 9/12/2000
From: Kent, United Kingdom
Status: offline 		Kind of dissappointed as you can't mod a scenario or produce one of your own. All the scenarios end in 1945 and it would be good to have the end date that you want.

I was wrong in presuming there would be a scenario editor
or am I missing something?

A big minus for me.

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Post #: 19
RE: First Impressions - 6/15/2007 5:49:34 PM   
Plainian

 

Posts: 212
Joined: 9/22/2006
From: Dundee in Scotland
Status: offline 		No there isn't an Editor. Don't think one was promised?

Unit icons (3D and 2D) can be modded if a person has patience. Certain map icons can be modded? (will check)

Map itself cannot be changed nor can the terrain tiles.

Movement continuation. Yes feels strange to start with but simplifies things. Basically you move and fight with one unit at a time. It means game is one phase but not quite like HPS Panzer campaign game series where you can go back and fire after moving another unit.


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Post #: 20
RE: First Impressions - 6/15/2007 7:07:08 PM   
TheHellPatrol


Posts: 1588
Joined: 7/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave Ferguson

Kind of dissappointed as you can't mod a scenario or produce one of your own. All the scenarios end in 1945 and it would be good to have the end date that you want.

I was wrong in presuming there would be a scenario editor
or am I missing something?

A big minus for me.
Under the options menu in the game setup you can toggle off 1945 so the game plays on.
It was stated earlier that there was no editor per se but editable script files.


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Post #: 21
RE: First Impressions - 6/15/2007 9:38:53 PM   
Dave Ferguson

 

Posts: 302
Joined: 9/12/2000
From: Kent, United Kingdom
Status: offline 		Well never mind about the lack of a editor for now

I tried a couple of turns of the tutorial and then dived into the 1939 scenario.

This is what has happened so far, after I stumbled up to the fall of France.

Poland surrendered at the end of turn 2, lesson learned is once you have the surrender trigger beseiged don't attack elsewhere, it just causes unneccessary casualties.

Turn 3 saw my mini wolf pack mauling a convoy en route from Canada. Redeply to west and a question, why can't my battleship get out of the Baltic Sea?

Turn 4 and more convoy mauling, redeployments, repairs and build some garrisons and a tank

Turn 5 destroyers catch my u-boats, ouch! score allies 4 axis 2

Turn 6 shift u-boats and blast another convoy. Question, can you switch the autoscroll off? It keeps jumping the map when I move to the button box

Late January 1940 declared war on Holland and Belgium, they lasted longer than historicaly so it might be agood idea to invade early

Crikey, I just lost a panzer corps to the French armour, the allied air strikes are an irritation as well

June 27 Paris surrounded and I shut down the rest of the battle to concentrate on Paris.

Paris is real tough, it took until August 26th to force a surrender. The coup-de-gras was administered by the luftwaffe, or what was left of it!. the lesson here is you HAVE to kill more than 5 defender points per turn to attrition the garrison, it gets 5 points back during the allied turn.

Thought so far, amazing carnage and the AI is not to hot, it does not know when it is best to withdraw. I am sure I played a bad game and now have to build up for Barbarrosa plus conquor a few more countries.

just look at the August 26th casualties, the UK total is really weird as the BEF never went to France.









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Post #: 22
RE: First Impressions - 6/15/2007 9:56:25 PM   
Syagrius

 

Posts: 165
Joined: 5/12/2006
Status: offline 		Strange indeed, how the Brits have lost almost a million men without sending troops in France???

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Post #: 23
RE: First Impressions - 6/15/2007 10:07:30 PM   
SurrenderMonkey

 

Posts: 124
Joined: 10/5/2005
Status: offline 		I'm sure that you can't get out of the Baltic until you capture Denmark and open the Skagerrak (sp?) Strait.

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Post #: 24
RE: First Impressions - 6/15/2007 10:29:00 PM   
ravinhood


Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

ffs Matrix!!!!!  I only just bought two games from you!!! She'll kill me!


Hahahaha no new game for gew. You'll have to buy HER something now before you can get anything else or you're being SELFISH. ;)

EDIT: Before Judge has a hissy fit thinking I quote the below from him they are from others in the thread that I took special note of and just wanted to save space and not make another post. ;)

quote:

I "played" the tutorial as my learning game, and the AI is a bit weak in it,

quote:

and the AI is not to hot

quote:

It seems that if you move a unit 1 hex, or it's movement limit, once you de-select the unit, it can no longer move, or attack.


Oh this is not good to read not good at all.

< Message edited by ravinhood -- 6/15/2007 10:40:45 PM >

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Post #: 25
RE: First Impressions - 6/15/2007 10:42:12 PM   
bssybeep


Posts: 237
Joined: 6/5/2007
Status: offline 		Spent some more time with the game playing as the Axis.  My strategy is to focus research on naval, armor, and industry.  Then keep the west busy with a Uboat war while I build up an Army Group South (to take resource rich regions in the South of Russia) and an Army Group North to drive on Moscow.  I'm doing better with my uboats as I now attack in packs in the middle or closer to the Canada/US side of the ocean.

...fun game, definitely has that "just one more turn" quality.

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Post #: 26
RE: First Impressions - 6/15/2007 11:39:00 PM   
TheHellPatrol


Posts: 1588
Joined: 7/3/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

quote:

I "played" the tutorial as my learning game, and the AI is a bit weak in it,

quote:

and the AI is not to hot

quote:

It seems that if you move a unit 1 hex, or it's movement limit, once you de-select the unit, it can no longer move, or attack.


Oh this is not good to read not good at all.

1) It's just a tutorial
2)There are 7 levels of difficulty for those interested.
3)You'll soon remember after a couple mistakes, it's not a killer.
Finally, the game is too fun and so much like Panzer General with an added "mini-game" of Convoy warfare AND strategic bombing that it's too good to pass up for a measly $49.


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Post #: 27
RE: First Impressions - 6/15/2007 11:49:12 PM   
cdbeck


Posts: 1374
Joined: 8/16/2005
From: Indiana
Status: offline 		Now now RH, you didn't quote my entire statement. I said the tutorial AI was weak, as it was toned down. The normal one is not that bad.

SoM

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Post #: 28
RE: First Impressions - 6/16/2007 8:28:47 AM   
Texican

 

Posts: 248
Joined: 10/30/2006
Status: offline 		First impressions:

Decent game. Application kind of sluggish (it seems). AI appears to be decent, which is very important in these kinds of games. Don't care for the music; something a little more bellicose or period, or even classical might have been better. Will play this game with the music off.

Unit types are good, research seems good, production seems simple.

One detail on leaders, I did not agree with all the ratings, but everyone has their views. Still, I think the British General Montgomery ought to warrant a bonus on defense. If there was one thing he was good at, it was building an iron-clad defensive position.

Will play the game some more before formulating further opinions.

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Post #: 29
RE: First Impressions - 6/16/2007 3:33:18 PM   
blighty

 

Posts: 8
Joined: 6/7/2007
Status: offline 		I am enjoying it, but so far the AI can't handle an aggressive Axis player by June 1941, I have taken
Poland
The Low Countries
Denmark
Norway
UK (just the mainland they have not Surrendered) Due to Sealion I have not done much against Convoys
Italy is advancing on Cario

I am now moving up to attack Russia

This is on Normal though I think for the Axis a harder level is recommended

I will try the Allies after this game.

I think I may be looking for PBEM players at some point, as the game is very good, supply is done well, the tech is good as it makes you think about future ops and upgrade based on that, production is good, it does not take 2 years to build some armour like some games, overall I like it, although I am seing some room for improvement



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