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RE: Any Questions? - 5/12/2008 10:54:17 PM   
Joel Billings


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In my AAR with Jon, there haven't been too many lopsided battles between large armies. Sometimes smaller forces get caught and crushed by a large army, but when they go head to head the battles tend to be fairly even (+_25% in losses). That's what we've tried to get, but the variability in the system is great and the factors so many, that you can get different results. This is a bottom's up combat calculator, not a top down, so we don't determine the final outcome, lots of smaller die rolls determine it (with a few important roles at the beginning by the Army Commanders that can impact how many units get into the battle).

(in reply to Pford)
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RE: Any Questions? - 5/12/2008 11:51:15 PM   
Pford

 

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AGEOD's civil war game tends to suffer from the same issue, IMO. Not to mention the extreme discrepancies in results between unequal commanders. But I can see how an organic combat system makes this goal dicey.

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Post #: 62
RE: Any Questions? - 5/13/2008 1:20:22 AM   
PyleDriver


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I have bad eyes too. Union icons face south-west. and CSA icons face north-east...In our game losses are really balanced. I took heavy losses attacking a entrenched forest with a type 1 fort, and a type 2 fortress city this month. 1.5 to 1 sounds about right to me, alot better results than I thought.


Jon

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RE: Any Questions? - 5/13/2008 2:29:06 AM   
Joel Billings


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There is a system in place that causes "attrition" bonuses to kick in which almost always result in a unit being hit. This system tends to balance losses. This system was implemented about 4 months ago (IIRC) in order to better balance the combat results and has been very effective.

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Post #: 64
RE: Any Questions? - 5/13/2008 11:11:38 PM   
von Beanie


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Are the good leaders always the same, or is there an option for each side to figure out who the good leaders are by trial and error?

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Post #: 65
RE: Any Questions? - 5/13/2008 11:31:23 PM   
Joel Billings


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quote:

ORIGINAL: von Beanie

Are the good leaders always the same, or is there an option for each side to figure out who the good leaders are by trial and error?


There are Semi-Random, Random, and Historical Leader Options, along with the Unknown Leader Ratings option that keeps those random ratings something you only find out about over time and action.

(in reply to von Beanie)
Post #: 66
RE: Any Questions? - 5/27/2008 5:34:05 AM   
tedhealy


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Will there be a demo?  If not, please at least do a video of some game play like the FOF video.  Will intelligence on enemy armies be estimates of the number of soldiers or the actual numbers,  that is will these numbers be affected by fog of war, quality of general, control of the area, other factors?  Do leader abilities increase/decrease with experience in battle?  Is there weather?  Mud slowing marches down?  Causing more attrition?  Are there terrain bonuses?  Wilderness?  Impassable areas?  Any way to add some color to the map?  It looks very good, but a bit lifeless to me in that it's all a shade of gray.

Edit...another ? How are promotions handled in that are lower ranked general promotable right away to higher ranks or do they have to work their way up? That is could Grant be promoted to Western theater command on day 1 (or whenever he is available), or does he have to win some battles first? Any penalties for promoting or demoting generals a la AACW's political rankings of generals?

< Message edited by tedhealy -- 5/27/2008 6:02:08 AM >

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Post #: 67
RE: Any Questions? - 5/27/2008 7:56:11 AM   
tedhealy


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After reading most of the posted AARs, seems like I can answer most of my questions in the affirmative. 

The Jon Pyle vs Joel Billings AAR really gives a great sense of the fog of war for both the enemy and your own commanders.  I'm really liking how cavalry is used and the initiative system.  Is there a map overlay that can be used to show army size from a zoomed out prespective to get a quick appraisal of the war at a glance?  Or once you get familiar with the icons, will that be pretty apparent without any sort of overlay/special view?  I'd love to have an option to turn on/off that shows my own army size and known enemy army sizes near their icon or something like the FOF map that shows larger forces as larger icons on a zoomed out view of the entire theater.

I'm really looking forward to this now and will have to satisfy my ACW urge by playing Price of Freedom (ACW board game) until release. 

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Post #: 68
RE: Any Questions? - 5/27/2008 10:41:21 AM   
GShock


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Ted, the Union manpower advantage is supreme in the game but it's not about numbers as you seldom get to commit all the forces at hand. What you can see as a total list of enemy armed forces is averaged by the FOW and thus, not much reliable. On a theater - theater basis, you may roughly estimate the enemy forces in a region by counting the troop chits you can see.

Which of course, doesn't mean you know the total of enemy forces, just the ones you see.

Yes leader abilities change with experience.

Yes the weather is involved and affects gameplay, combat and strategy.

Promotions are automatic due to seniority or by presidential decree. Yes promoting or dismissing has its costs.

As of the video, probably some video AAR or even a tutorial will be published prior to the game's release. The demo?
That's a good question.

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Post #: 69
RE: Any Questions? - 5/27/2008 5:53:21 PM   
Joel Billings


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Last week I recoreded a 4-5 minute video that shows off parts of the game. Matrix is adding music and some extra info, and it should be posted in the next week or two. It's not clear yet whether any of the tutorial videos will be released to the public, but you will have this preview video. No demo is planned.

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RE: Any Questions? - 5/27/2008 6:47:13 PM   
tedhealy


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Thanks, looking forward to the video and hopefully more AARs before release 

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RE: Any Questions? - 5/30/2008 10:35:01 AM   
von Beanie


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I just watched the promo video and I'll definitely be buying the game.

Is there an opportunity to reserve a "leader X" slot that you can name whoever you want when playing the game? I'd sure like to name (or rename) at least one leader and see if I could get it promoted to the top spot (regardless of its competence ratings). Just a thought.

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RE: Any Questions? - 5/30/2008 5:37:35 PM   
Joel Billings


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quote:

ORIGINAL: von Beanie

I just watched the promo video and I'll definitely be buying the game.

Is there an opportunity to reserve a "leader X" slot that you can name whoever you want when playing the game? I'd sure like to name (or rename) at least one leader and see if I could get it promoted to the top spot (regardless of its competence ratings). Just a thought.


No, currently there is no way to rename a leader unless you mod the data files. Of course, you could modify the leader database and put your own leader in there if you wanted. You'd be hard pressed to have a commander with bad or mediocre ratings reach the top. You generally need 3's and 4's in the main categories if you're going to win enough battles to excel.

(in reply to von Beanie)
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RE: Any Questions? - 5/30/2008 7:51:18 PM   
Crimguy


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Not a biggie, but in FOF I had difficulty divorcing myself from their historical abilities when random stats was enabled.  I just couldn't accept the fact that Sherman could suck, or that Bragg could be brilliant.

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RE: Any Questions? - 5/30/2008 10:51:18 PM   
GShock


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The game has an option for semi-random stats.

This way, Grant would be just above average instead of extraordinary, for example. Now when the stats are randomized (random/semi random) and the hidden leader stats option is enabled that's truly a trial and error...The offensive value for example might be hidden and you could find out what the leader is really worth only after a battle...it's a risky proposition but you need it because it's by putting the best leader in the job that you can win.

I think it's one of the many nice features on leaders this game has. 

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Post #: 75
RE: Any Questions? - 5/31/2008 12:45:30 AM   
von Beanie


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Actually, early in the war Sherman sucked big time. I read a very detailed history of his career and when he was in charge of some Union forces in Kentucky/Ohio early in the war he was timid and indecisive. He was sacked for being a bad commander. It was when he was "resurrected" and served under Grant that he began to perform much better. Very few leaders got the lucky break that Sherman got after his first chance to lead troops.

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RE: Any Questions? - 5/31/2008 1:16:47 AM   
Crimguy


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Yes he had a nervous breakdown of sorts. Saw the enemy under every bush. Probably couldn't have performed as well as he did without the support of Grant. But he did shine when he came around. Should have set up pickets and recon at Shiloh though ;-D

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RE: Any Questions? - 5/31/2008 4:34:04 AM   
Killjoy12

 

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The promo video had some box art labeled "Standard Edition". Care to elaborate on what the different types of editions will be?

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RE: Any Questions? - 5/31/2008 8:43:48 AM   
lancer

 

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Goodaye,

Another supply question. I've noticed regions have a 'grid' rating, eg. 5. I assume from the AAR's that this is a reflection of their ability to transmit supplies. So...

1. Are armies generic in terms of supply in that all armies need the same amount or does the game take into account their size in determining the supply requirements?

2. How does the 'grid' work? If your army is sitting in a region with a grid rating of 5 what implications does that have for your ability to get sufficient supply?

3. Is their a line of supply that has to be traced back to a source and can this be cut?

4. What happens if your army is sitting in a grid 0 region?

5. If there is a shortage of supply can you prioritize one army to get supply over another?

Cheers,
Lancer

(in reply to Killjoy12)
Post #: 79
RE: Any Questions? - 5/31/2008 9:20:18 AM   
Hertston


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Killjoy12

The promo video had some box art labeled "Standard Edition". Care to elaborate on what the different types of editions will be?


Don't get too excited.

Matrix Games Announces Three New Game Editions

(in reply to Killjoy12)
Post #: 80
RE: Any Questions? - 5/31/2008 11:27:14 AM   
GShock


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Hi Lancer, i will try to answer to your questions:

1) We could say that Army size is considering the total number of units inside each region. The term Army in WBTS can be misleading as the Army is led by the Army Commander but he has no stack because no troops can be attached to him, all the troops belonging to your side are armies themselves. Therefore, what you need to do is to keep all troops supplied, wherever they are, whatever leader and sub-leader they are attached to, because this helps against attrition and in combat. The bigger the number of troops in a region, the more supplies you need to forward there and since you have no control over supply movement, you'll likely need to build depots so that supplies are "attracted" to it, never forgetting supplies are used to recruit militia and to help with initiative. They are actually a critical factor in WBTS.

2) The grid definition in itself is just a number with little value. A grid is a network of connected bordering regions through which supplies (and initiative/combat bonuses) may pass. You are required to make it so that the TC and AC belong to the same grid for example, and be advised that supplies belonging to a grid may not support troops being in another grid. Obviously 2 grids are separated by enemy territory, or by ET + the sinking of tranport ships connecting 2 territories via "water-bridge" and this is how wbts simulates the Union strategy to cut the CSA in 2 and the importance of the Mississipi river. Cut the production centers where supplies are produced from the troops at the front and you are on the way to victory.

3) That line, is the grid itself. Not a line as i explained above but a number of connected regions forming a grid through which supply move freely towards units.

4) Grid not connected to supply means troops unsupplied. The units will either forage or be unsupplied, which means extreme combat and attrition issues.

5) Each supply will strive to get to all units in its grid with no priority distinction.

Feel free to ask if you want to know more.

(in reply to lancer)
Post #: 81
RE: Any Questions? - 5/31/2008 1:00:19 PM   
lancer

 

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Goodaye GShock,

Thanks for the prompt answers. Could I clarify a few points.

Am I correct in assuming that the game models the American theatre as two seperate and distinct theatres (east and west) which also ties directly into the supply 'grids'. Eg. there is a grid for both east and west?

Also the two theatres are connected via key rivers / towns and that supply from one theatre could feasibly flow and be used in the other if required - provided that the connections between the two theatres haven't been broken?

Supply depots 'pull' supplies to them a-la-AEGOD's civil war game. So if you want more supplies in an area you build more depots?

Does the supply map overlay show the line of supply (edit: or regions on that particular grid) connecting your armies to their supply sources?

In a region with no grid (eg. 'grid 0') can you put supply wagons with your units to prevent attrition hits and penalities a-la-AACW?

I'm asking a lot of questions but, hey, you did offer. The game sounds really interesting.

Cheers and thanks in advance,

Lancer

edit: Are you the same GShock from the AACW forums. A Beta tester with the crazy avatar? If so would you be able to give a brief comparison between the two games - not on features but on any aspects that clearly define one from the other?

< Message edited by lancer -- 5/31/2008 1:28:20 PM >

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RE: Any Questions? - 5/31/2008 1:33:22 PM   
GShock


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You can't clarify but you can ask for further clarifications 
As of me i can try to clarify and you should all take my answers as temporary because any time Pyle or Joel may come to clarify to you, and to me, how exactly some things work. WBTS, like all games of this genre, is an apparently total simplification of a complex struggle, but believe me, the mechanics behind this simplification are very complex indeed. Complex to understand and even more to employ (which is good, we don't want a risk game do we?) but very rewarding.

I'll just never detach from the philosophy of Gilman "Chopstick" Louie, CEO of Spectrum Holobyte, the makers of Falcon4: "If we had wanted to produce an accurate flight simulator we would have needed to build an F-16".

Now to the answers:
There's no specific need to employ 2 theater commanders and at the same time, there can be an unlimited number of supply grids, each representing a different area separated from the others for supply purposes.
You may just employ 1 but the help the TC can give to the Army Commanders is bound by the grid and a maximum distance of 6 regions within the same grid. It is evident that it's better to have a good TC than a bad one, but having a mediocre TC and not having a TC at all can be good or bad according to the situation. Dismissing a bad TC costs a lot of points while a good AC can get initiative without help from TC. Choices...choices...choices and remember that according to the settings, you may also not know that a leader is performing bad until the moment he sees action for that particular rating category.

Production of supplies happens as with all other "units" of the game. A Resource point connected to a Factory generates a Production Point. These PPs can be used to build supplies and each supply unit is worth 10 supplies. Supplies are forwarded automatically to the troops and are attracted to depots but there mustn't be broken links (enemy regions cutting the lines and the rivers itself cut the lines if there's no transport fleet in the river) because grids are not connected to one another. Differently from AACW, Depots in WBTS do not produce supplies but you need higher level depots to attract more supplies when in that region you've got loads of troops to keep supplied. Depots also allow you to influence where your troops will retreat if beaten. They will always in priority select a region with a depot for a retreat.

I asked for such a map overlay in the beginning, to make things easier for players but then i realized there wasn't a specific need because there's a Shift-U key that shows you all unsupplied units on map by highlighting the region. The Devs chose to highlight unsupplied rather than highlight supplied, it's the same.

You have a limited control on the forwarding of supplies...you can build depots to make more supplies go there, but you don't move them, the engine does.
Ultimately if troops in a region are unsupplied, you can tell them to forage for supplies but you can't attach supply wagons to them...you must work this solution with territory control and prevent the enemy from cutting you out of supply areas or your armies will be totally destroyed....which in WBTS is a tragedy more than in AACW because the monthly+big region compared to 15-day+small region is unforgiving on mistakes of this kind. 

I think Joel and Pyle's AAR shows this clearly. You can see on the big map how CSA is shrinking turn after turn but CSA still has armies because it keeps falling back.

(in reply to lancer)
Post #: 83
RE: Any Questions? - 6/1/2008 1:36:29 AM   
Killjoy12

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hertston

quote:

ORIGINAL: Killjoy12

The promo video had some box art labeled "Standard Edition". Care to elaborate on what the different types of editions will be?


Don't get too excited.

Matrix Games Announces Three New Game Editions


Thanks for clarifying.

(in reply to Hertston)
Post #: 84
RE: Any Questions? - 6/1/2008 2:36:49 AM   
lancer

 

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Goodaye GShock,

Thanks for the informative - and diplomatic - reply.

One last question. Is there a distance component to supply? Eg. Do units sitting on top of a supply depot get the same supply as units eight regions distant but still on the grid?

Cheers,

Lancer

(in reply to Killjoy12)
Post #: 85
RE: Any Questions? - 6/1/2008 8:31:57 AM   
Joel Billings


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A unit is in supply or not. To get in supply they either use up resources in an area (for infantry/cav types only) or they use up supplies from their supply grid. Each area has a supply cost based on how far off rail/sea transport the area is from a factory source on the grid. If connected by rail/transport then supply cost of the area is 1. If off rail/transport, but within 4 road areas of rail/transport, then supply cost is 2. If off road one area (from rail or road), then supply cost is 3. If off road 2 areas then you are not on the grid. Each unit uses up supplies equal to the supply cost of their area to get into supply. Cav and mounted units expend double the normal supply points (so a cav unit in a supply cost 2 area uses 4 supplies). Since cavalry raids can damage railroads, a great way to make an army in enemy territory pay is to use a cav raid to damage the rails in their area. If you damage the rail to level 2 damage, then the area is considered a road area, and instead of paying 1 supply per unit, they have to spend 2. An army of 60,000 infantry, 6,000 cavalry, and 200 guns would normally expend 46 supply points, but if the area was raided and the rail was damaged to level 2, if the area was not adjacent to a river or ocean with a transport link to the supply grid, it would expend 92 supply points instead. So the cav raid would cost the army 46 supplies plus 10 supplies to repair the rail. This "rail" damage actually is a reflection of the raiding cavalry's ability to disrupt the supply lines of the army. This is were a great cav commander can make life hell for an army that is relying on a rail connection. Depots have more to do with helping attacking armies get initiative then they do with units getting supplied.

(in reply to lancer)
Post #: 86
RE: Any Questions? - 6/1/2008 8:37:27 AM   
tedhealy


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Can rail then be repaired?  By any unit?

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RE: Any Questions? - 6/1/2008 9:44:47 AM   
lancer

 

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Goodaye,

O.K. Got it.

Many thanks.

Cheers,
Lancer

(in reply to tedhealy)
Post #: 88
RE: Any Questions? - 6/1/2008 11:19:33 AM   
GShock


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Yes rail can be repaired and repairing/raiding rails is a top strategic priority.

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Post #: 89
RE: Any Questions? - 6/1/2008 11:01:17 PM   
Joel Billings


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In many cases I see the rail damage system as being an abstract way of dealing with supply lines. We do also allow units to damage factories, rail and resource centers by expending movement points, so some scorched earth is possible (in addition to cav raids which just targets rail and supplies in an area).

(in reply to GShock)
Post #: 90
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