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RE: Letters from Iwo Jima

 
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RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 12/6/2007 2:01:00 AM   
Sarge


Posts: 2841
Joined: 3/1/2003
From: ask doggie
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ike99

How come when a thread is talking about how mean or cruel the Axis troops were during the war it is fine but when someone speaks about how the Allies hands were not so clean as it seems we have to close the thread?

Can anyone wonder now as to why there are such few records of Allied atrocities from WW2?!

Here is a good clue.



What ?

If I am wrong and you have records to link up confirming wide spread killing of POW's at the hands of Americans please enlighten away .

Or is it you have a hunch of a Yank Dog conspiracy and Marts post is conformation



_____________________________


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Post #: 511
RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 12/6/2007 2:36:28 AM   
mjk428

 

Posts: 1944
Joined: 6/15/2002
From: Western USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ike99

quote:

Can anyone wonder why this thread went to ****e in a handbasket?

Here is a good clue.


Yeah let´s take a look....I think it was post number 4 before the Yank flag waving and moral high ground band standing began...


quote:

Doggie-Too bad any movie that portrayed them as they really were would be worse than the most graphic slasher film imaginable.




That you would view that as Yank flag waving says a lot about your mental state. It's a true statement, even considering how graphic slasher films have gotten recently. The behavior of the Japanese military during WW2 was absolutely abominable. It will be no less abominable no matter how many acts of barbarity you point to committed by others.

As for the moral high ground, it's not at all difficult to be on the moral high ground when compared to the Nazis or the Japanese of WW2.


For those who don't get why Clint's depiction of the Japs in "Letters" might bother some folks: Imagine Mel Gibson made a movie about Auschwitz and the only time we see the guards interact with any Jews, they are nursing them back to health. Plus he throws in a scene of the Jews torturing a Nazi guard they managed to get their hands on. I'm exaggerating only slightly to make the point. I've yet to see Nazis portrayed sympathically on the silver screen. Although, I'm sure it's coming soon to a theater near you. The Japanese were every bit as monstrous as the Nazis and don't deserve any lighter treatment.

Now, my only real complaint about "Letters" was the lack of context and balance. Had "Flags" been "Letters" in reverse then I'd have had no problems with the second film at all. I guess that would have made too much sense - let alone be far more entertaining. Clint decided instead to devote half the movie to what represented a few pages in the book and he was sure not to include anything that might make the stars of his next movie, the Japanese, look too bad.

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Post #: 512
RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 12/6/2007 3:36:41 AM   
Ike99


Posts: 1747
Joined: 1/1/2006
From: A Sand Road
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quote:

What ?

If I am wrong and you have records to link up confirming wide spread killing of POW's at the hands of Americans please enlighten away .

Or is it you have a hunch of a Yank Dog conspiracy and Marts post is conformation


Are you serious? You seriously believe large numbers of Japanese POW´s were not killed in the Pacific theatre!?

Gee let´s see here, where does one start?

Well you can start at the Australain Government site Sarge on Digger history.

I´m pretty sure it´s a Australian Government, but whatever, type in Digger history and you´ll find it. I´m not doing your homework for you.

Read through the Veterans interviews and you can find many, many cases of killing Japanese POW´s. Hell one said on the Kakoda track it was not uncommon to capture a Japanese, question him for info and then shoot them because they didn´t feel like walking all the way back down the trail. Another said when they came upon a wounded Japanese they just shot them. No problems.

Sarge this type of stuff was all too common and not out of the ordinary at all in the Pacific Theatre. You can believe whatever glossy view you want but that was the nature of the war in the Pacific on both sides.

I understand there is a relatively new book called ¨Utmost Savagery¨ on all this kind of stuff in the Pacific theatre. I think you need to order a copy.

(in reply to mjk428)
Post #: 513
RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 12/6/2007 4:39:52 AM   
Sarge


Posts: 2841
Joined: 3/1/2003
From: ask doggie
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge

What ?

If I am wrong and you have records to link up confirming wide spread killing of POW's at the hands of Americans please enlighten away .

Or is it you have a hunch of a Yank Dog conspiracy and Marts post is conformation



Take another look Ike

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Post #: 514
RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 12/6/2007 6:27:14 AM   
Doggie


Posts: 3244
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From: Under the porch
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ike99



Are you serious? You seriously believe large numbers of Japanese POW´s were not killed in the Pacific theatre!?


Serious as a heart attack. Not one Japanese prisoner starved to death or was eaten alive while in Allied custody. None were tortured to death. Ninety five percent of Jpanese prisoners in Allied custody survived the war. There is not even a rumor about Japanese prisoners of war being systematically murdered, tortured, or used as slave laborers.

Allied soldiers in the field were sometimes reluctant to take prisoners, as the conduct of Japanese soldiers did not endear them to anyone. But the ones who did make it into an Allied Prisoner of War camp usually survived the experience unharmed, as opposed to one hundred percent of prisoners of the Japanease who were treated with the most unimaginaqble barbarism.



quote:

Read through the Veterans interviews and you can find many, many cases of killing Japanese POW´s. Hell one said on the Kakoda track it was not uncommon to capture a Japanese, question him for info and then shoot them because they didn´t feel like walking all the way back down the trail. Another said when they came upon a wounded Japanese they just shot them. No problems.


No problem indeed, when you consider the Austrailains routinely found bodies of their countrymen who had literally been eaten alive, the flesh cut from their arms and legs while the remains were thrown into a ditch whilst still alive so the kidneys and livers would still be fresh the next day.

Can't say as I blame the Austrailians. It really wasn'ty worth the effort to walk the sick, sadistic bastards back down the trail. I would have gut shot them and left them to bleed out.

quote:

Sarge this type of stuff was all too common and not out of the ordinary at all in the Pacific Theatre.


Yes it was. The Japanese butchered, raped, and tortured their way across the Pacific. They even butchered their own women and children on Okinawa and Saipan. What was out of the ordinary was simple human decency from the Japanese, towards anyone.

Even the nazis did not murder and rape french citizens at random on the streets of Paris. The Japanese did this everywhere they went.



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Post #: 515
RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 12/6/2007 8:12:01 AM   
Ike99


Posts: 1747
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From: A Sand Road
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quote:

mjk428-It's a true statement, even considering how graphic slasher films have gotten recently. The behavior of the Japanese military during WW2 was absolutely abominable. It will be no less abominable no matter how many acts of barbarity you point to committed by others.


What are you saying? Only the barbaric acts commited by the Japanese count? Those commited by the Allies don´t count no matter how many were commited? If that´s not what your saying is sure sounds an awful lot like it.

quote:

Sarge-Take another look Ike


I don´t need to take another look Sarge.

You do.

Your either very naive or just want to lie about it to yourself if you don´t think it was common practice to murder Japanese wounded and POW´s in the Pacific War.

Heres a film about it. Perhaps you need to watch it if it won´t burst your bubble too much.

Horrific footage shot during battle with Japanese shows execution of wounded....

For more than half a century they have been portrayed as wholesome heroes who fought in terrible conditions to save the Western way of life from Japanese aggression. But now the savage acts that Allied soldiers were driven to commit in the Pacific theatre are about to be exposed.

The film, shot in colour, was taken by an unknown combat cameraman in 1944 during fighting on the Pacific Island of Peleliu. It includes scenes of American soldiers shooting Japanese wounded as they lie prone on the ground....

In another scene on the Japanese island of Okinawa a year later, a US soldier is filmed dragging a wounded enemy from a hiding place. Although the man has his ankles tied together, two bullets are fired into his knees and then, while he is still moving, shots are fired into his chest and head....

....Others spoke of units throwing away their bayonets to avoid being ordered by 'over-enthusiastic' officers to charge, and of machine-gunning villages full of civilians and clubbing wounded Japanese soldiers to death as they tried to surrender....


Are you getting a understanding of how the war was fought Sarge? Perhaps you and some other people on this thread need to order a copy and have a look you think?


quote:

The revelations will shock many accustomed to the heroic image of American soldiers....


Yeah, like most of the Yanks on this thread it seems!

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,500631,00.html


(in reply to Doggie)
Post #: 516
RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 12/6/2007 8:57:19 AM   
mjk428

 

Posts: 1944
Joined: 6/15/2002
From: Western USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ike99

quote:

mjk428-It's a true statement, even considering how graphic slasher films have gotten recently. The behavior of the Japanese military during WW2 was absolutely abominable. It will be no less abominable no matter how many acts of barbarity you point to committed by others.


What are you saying? Only the barbaric acts commited by the Japanese count? Those commited by the Allies don´t count no matter how many were commited? If that´s not what your saying is sure sounds an awful lot like it.


What I'm saying is what I already said. If you weren't so unhinged over this subject maybe you'd have understood it the first time. A billion atrocities committed by US Marines wouldn't make Doggie's statement any less accurate. It wouldn't make it "Yank flag waving" either.

Are you saying that the behavior of the Japanese military was not abominable in WW2? Go ahead and come right out and say it, child of Tojo, I know you want to. It's ultimately all FDR's fault. Those sanctions drove the Japanese to war and we all know war is hell. So lets just give them a free pass. That's your stance as far as I can tell. Problem is that's not going to fly.

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Post #: 517
RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 12/6/2007 10:41:25 AM   
Hortlund


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mjk428
However, even in Western legal traditions there are components of collective guilt.

Recently we had a football star murdered in his home in Miami. Four people broke in. One person fired a gun and killed him. Four people are charged with his murder. They were all guilty of a crime, true - but only one committed murder. Charging them all with murder is an example of "collective guilt" in the legal process.*


LOL, where do you come up with this stuff? You are just making it up as you go, arent you? That all people who took part in the break-in are convicted of murder is not an example of collective guilt, the legal argument is that they all wilfully took part in the "original" crime (break-in), and therefore, they all have a responsibility in what happened next (murder).

For it to be an example of collective guilt, then all members of their gang would have to be convicted of murder aswell.

In fact, when you look at it like that, the situation becomes not unlike the one doggie advocates. Suppose the gang has 15 members, 4 are doing this break-in and subsequent murder while 11 are at home watching tv. Collective guilt would mean that all 15 members of the gang are equally guilty to the murder...because of their membership in the gang, and regardless of their individual actions.

quote:

I can fully understand why you are "anti" collective guilt. However, not even entertaining "the notion" that guilt can be collective just seems closed-minded to me. I don't see the notion as any kind of threat to our freedoms. Especially since it's already amongst us and by closing our eyes to it, we can only make its practice that much more a threat.


LOL priceless.


quote:

I've yet to hear Doggie say that all Japanese deserved to be butchered.


Then you need to re-read his posts. They were stinking savages that deserved to be butchered, and "they" did not refer only to the Japanese army, since the firebombings of Tokyo also taught "them" a lesson. Clearly an indication that he is refering to "the japanese" and not "the japanese army".

_____________________________

The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to a close.
In its place we are entering a period of consequences..

(in reply to mjk428)
Post #: 518
RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 12/6/2007 2:23:33 PM   
Ike99


Posts: 1747
Joined: 1/1/2006
From: A Sand Road
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quote:

Are you saying that the behavior of the Japanese military was not abominable in WW2? Go ahead and come right out and say it, child of Tojo, I know you want to.


Did I say that? I don´t think so. I said both sides did this type of stuff all the time. The war in the Pacific had heavy racial tones on both sides and as a result this was pretty much standard operating procedure.

So when I see comments like these...

quote:

Doggie-Too bad any movie that portrayed them as they really were would be worse than the most graphic slasher film imaginable.

Mr.Boats-Perhaps there should have been more scenes of Japanese soldiers torturing marines in the film.

Halsey-I actually started booing in the movie theatre when the Japanese commander wouldn't let his troops shoot the wounded Marine. He wanted to treat his wounds, and talk to him about the good ole days back in the USA. What a crock that was!


I like the record to be set straight that this was very much a two way street.

(in reply to Hortlund)
Post #: 519
RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 12/6/2007 2:55:57 PM   
mjk428

 

Posts: 1944
Joined: 6/15/2002
From: Western USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

LOL, where do you come up with this stuff? You are just making it up as you go, arent you? That all people who took part in the break-in are convicted of murder is not an example of collective guilt, the legal argument is that they all wilfully took part in the "original" crime (break-in), and therefore, they all have a responsibility in what happened next (murder).

For it to be an example of collective guilt, then all members of their gang would have to be convicted of murder aswell.

In fact, when you look at it like that, the situation becomes not unlike the one doggie advocates. Suppose the gang has 15 members, 4 are doing this break-in and subsequent murder while 11 are at home watching tv. Collective guilt would mean that all 15 members of the gang are equally guilty to the murder...because of their membership in the gang, and regardless of their individual actions.


Did I miss something. Has it been credibly reported that Sean Taylor's murder was gang related or is this just an assumption of yours based on a racist stereotype?

quote:

Wardlow's attorney, David Brener, distanced his client's actions from those of Rivera and said he expected to go to trial.

"I believe that the acts of Mr. Rivera, who was the shooter of this case, constitute an independent act," Brener said Wednesday. "My client never contemplated that Mr. Rivera was going to arm himself or use lethal force against Mr. Taylor."


Anyway, I "get this stuff" from attorney David Brener. He's arguing that his client's guilt should be judged independently. It seems he's willing to indulge the notion that Guilt is NOT always independent. Which is probably a good thing for his client.

I guess we can go at this the other way, if you'd prefer. Since every invading member of the Japanese military was guilty of trespassing, they all share the same guilt as those that committed war crimes. No collective guilt is in play. They're all condemned individually and equally.

quote:


Then you need to re-read his posts. They were stinking savages that deserved to be butchered, and "they" did not refer only to the Japanese army, since the firebombings of Tokyo also taught "them" a lesson. Clearly an indication that he is refering to "the japanese" and not "the japanese army".


So you take snippets from multiple posts from different days and then divine who "they" & "them" referred to in order to draw your conclusion. You cling to "there is no collective guilt" but completely ignore "innocent until proven guilty" & "beyond a reasonable doubt".

It just seems to me that Doggie should actually type those words before you get to put them in his mouth.

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Post #: 520
RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 12/6/2007 3:11:54 PM   
mjk428

 

Posts: 1944
Joined: 6/15/2002
From: Western USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ike99

quote:

Are you saying that the behavior of the Japanese military was not abominable in WW2? Go ahead and come right out and say it, child of Tojo, I know you want to.


Did I say that? I don´t think so. I said both sides did this type of stuff all the time. The war in the Pacific had heavy racial tones on both sides and as a result this was pretty much standard operating procedure.

So when I see comments like these...

quote:

Doggie-Too bad any movie that portrayed them as they really were would be worse than the most graphic slasher film imaginable.

Mr.Boats-Perhaps there should have been more scenes of Japanese soldiers torturing marines in the film.

Halsey-I actually started booing in the movie theatre when the Japanese commander wouldn't let his troops shoot the wounded Marine. He wanted to treat his wounds, and talk to him about the good ole days back in the USA. What a crock that was!


I like the record to be set straight that this was very much a two way street.


No it wasn't a two way street. It was a one-way six lane superhighway of death long before the US Marines even entered the picture. Eventually, after many years of slaughter with millions of innocent lives taken, the Japs finally got a little taste of their own medicine. That doesn't make barbaric behavior by US Marines or anyone else right but it sure was understandable under the circumstances.

I'm not at all surprised that you just can't bring yourself to condemn what the Japanese did.

_____________________________


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Post #: 521
RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 12/6/2007 3:23:12 PM   
Ike99


Posts: 1747
Joined: 1/1/2006
From: A Sand Road
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quote:

That doesn't make barbaric behavior by US Marines or anyone else right but it sure was understandable under the circumstances.




Yeah ¨OK¨ there chief. We got the picture. Anything the USA does barbaric, cruel & criminal is....¨understandable under the circumstances.¨ and anyone else doing the same is murdering and savage and they get what they deserve. I think your position is pretty clear.

Hey, have you waterboarded anyone lately?


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Post #: 522
RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 12/6/2007 3:30:38 PM   
Hortlund


Posts: 2884
Joined: 10/13/2000
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mjk428

Did I miss something. Has it been credibly reported that Sean Taylor's murder was gang related or is this just an assumption of yours based on a racist stereotype?


Actually you did miss something, yes. I used the example you posted and added the variables needed for it to become an example of collective guilt. Thus, you missunderstood the legal situation and thought it meant something it didnt. I showed you the variables that needed to be added for it to be a case of collective guilt.


quote:

Anyway, I "get this stuff" from attorney David Brener. He's arguing that his client's guilt should be judged independently. It seems he's willing to indulge the notion that Guilt is NOT always independent. Which is probably a good thing for his client.


Not really, what you are doing is missunderstanding the legal reasoning behind the case.

quote:


I guess we can go at this the other way, if you'd prefer. Since every invading member of the Japanese military was guilty of trespassing, they all share the same guilt as those that committed war crimes. No collective guilt is in play. They're all condemned individually and equally.


Sure, why not...lets play your little "I wish I was a lawyer so I knew what I was talking about"-game.

Now all you need to do now is to prove that each and every member of the Japanese military did indeed trespass. Good luck. If you fail, your collective guilt-case fails.


quote:


So you take snippets from multiple posts from different days and then divine who "they" & "them" referred to in order to draw your conclusion.


LOL you're really reaching now, arent you? Why is it so important for you to try to defend his racist statements?

_____________________________

The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to a close.
In its place we are entering a period of consequences..

(in reply to mjk428)
Post #: 523
RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 12/6/2007 3:51:10 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund



Sure, why not...lets play your little "I wish I was a lawyer so I knew what I was talking about"-game.




It actually didn't take long for your true colors to show through.

You might want to get a clue that the rest of your species looks down on attorneys as the truly misguided village idiots of the species.

Try this one for size: "I couldn't be MORE glad that I'm NOT a lawyer so I actually DO know what I'm talking about.

Leave it to those who muddle their way through law school to come away with a deluded belief in their own superiority!



< Message edited by HansBolter -- 12/6/2007 3:58:39 PM >

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Post #: 524
RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 12/6/2007 4:11:39 PM   
Hortlund


Posts: 2884
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter
It actually didn't take long for your true colors to show through.


What, no link to a funny picture this time?

quote:


You might want to get a clue that the rest of your species looks down on attorneys as the truly misguided village idiots of the species.


Stereotyping again are we? Tsk tsk.

quote:


Try this one for size: "I couldn't be MORE glad that I'm NOT a lawyer so I actually DO know what I'm talking about.


Surely though you agree that when it comes to discussions about the law or various legal matters it is more helpful to have passed through lawschool than not?

_____________________________

The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to a close.
In its place we are entering a period of consequences..

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 525
RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 12/6/2007 5:07:41 PM   
martxyz

 

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I wasn't going to contribute to this thread anymore as it had got pointless and hateful. I would like to throw in one further comment though, about the "legal" arguments that are going on. This isn't directed at any poster, but at the nature of the argument itself.
I am not a lawyer, not am I aggrieved by them. Of those I've known, and I've known a lot, they range from brilliant in the extreme, to complete dorks in the extreme. Similarly, I have met bucket-loads of people with opinions about lawyers, and as I usually knew the lawyers involved, they ranged from the "exactly right" to "I'm afraid the problem is you, and not them". Basically, I'm saying that I'm neutral on this aspect of the discussion, because situatons and people vary enormously.
I am sure about one thing though. I was a Probation Officer for 25 years, and in the last 15 or so I specialized mostly in Court Work. That would be criminal work, and also a certain amount of family court work relating to children. I reckon that any High Court Judge, Crown Court Judge, or experienced Magistrate listening to this increasingly finicky exchange would have thrown both sides out of court a few days ago, and told them to come back when they'd calmed down and learned to act like adults. He/she would probably also have advised both of them to stop acting like prima donnas, and get on with the show.

Why not just drop the subject. It's obviously going nowhere, and, like the parallel conversation going on in the thread, about atrocities and racism, it just reflects badly on the community.

It's true that you can choose to discuss what you like. But if you want to do that, why not just go over to doggies grotty hovel, and throw the dung around there instead.


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Post #: 526
RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 12/6/2007 5:20:05 PM   
JudgeDredd


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Amen brutha

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Alba gu' brath

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Post #: 527
RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 12/6/2007 6:16:27 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund


Surely though you agree that when it comes to discussions about the law or various legal matters it is more helpful to have passed through lawschool than not?



I apologize for the rant.

You succeeded in pushing my buttons.

I'm beginning to wonder if this is little more than an excercise on your part. Since attorney's need to keep their argumentative skills honed it appears more and more that you continue to participate mearly for the excercise since a fair number of your arguments are completely circular and self perpetuating.

As for the quote above, yes I do agree, but since WE are not discussing the "law" or "various legal matters" your point is not only irrelevant, but also the main reason for why I took you to task for your condescending statement. YOU are the only one here talking in terms of the "law" or "various legal matters" and that is why you have persisted in failing to grasp the pints others have made repeatedly. I made at least one attempt to get you to grasp the fact that everyone eles in this thread is talking about "collective" guilt in terms of peer and societal pressure and NOT in terms of "legalities".

While you are perfectly correct that in a legal sense there is no such thing as collective guilt you continue to demonstrate that you are clueless regarding the simple reality of the existence of collective guilt as a form of peer and societal pressure. That is what I meant by the "legalistic blinders" comment that left such a nasty bruise on your forehead as it bounced off and skimmed right over your head.

(in reply to Hortlund)
Post #: 528
RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 12/6/2007 6:56:35 PM   
morvwilson


Posts: 510
Joined: 11/30/2006
From: California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ike99

quote:

mjk428-It's a true statement, even considering how graphic slasher films have gotten recently. The behavior of the Japanese military during WW2 was absolutely abominable. It will be no less abominable no matter how many acts of barbarity you point to committed by others.


What are you saying? Only the barbaric acts commited by the Japanese count? Those commited by the Allies don´t count no matter how many were commited? If that´s not what your saying is sure sounds an awful lot like it.

quote:

Sarge-Take another look Ike


I don´t need to take another look Sarge.

You do.

Your either very naive or just want to lie about it to yourself if you don´t think it was common practice to murder Japanese wounded and POW´s in the Pacific War.

Heres a film about it. Perhaps you need to watch it if it won´t burst your bubble too much.

Horrific footage shot during battle with Japanese shows execution of wounded....

For more than half a century they have been portrayed as wholesome heroes who fought in terrible conditions to save the Western way of life from Japanese aggression. But now the savage acts that Allied soldiers were driven to commit in the Pacific theatre are about to be exposed.

The film, shot in colour, was taken by an unknown combat cameraman in 1944 during fighting on the Pacific Island of Peleliu. It includes scenes of American soldiers shooting Japanese wounded as they lie prone on the ground....

In another scene on the Japanese island of Okinawa a year later, a US soldier is filmed dragging a wounded enemy from a hiding place. Although the man has his ankles tied together, two bullets are fired into his knees and then, while he is still moving, shots are fired into his chest and head....

....Others spoke of units throwing away their bayonets to avoid being ordered by 'over-enthusiastic' officers to charge, and of machine-gunning villages full of civilians and clubbing wounded Japanese soldiers to death as they tried to surrender....


Are you getting a understanding of how the war was fought Sarge? Perhaps you and some other people on this thread need to order a copy and have a look you think?


quote:

The revelations will shock many accustomed to the heroic image of American soldiers....


Yeah, like most of the Yanks on this thread it seems!

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,500631,00.html




Thanks for the above Ike, your source explains a lot about your positions. To be perfectly honest with you, "observer.guardian" is not a credible source. If you want the facts you need to do more checking, especially on historical matters. If you want accuracy in your historical knowledge you need to look outside the news media and find two to three seperate publications that tell the same story. The reason for this is that news media like, The guardian, New York Times, Reuters and associated press tend to be biased against western civilization and their primary goal is to sell papers. Facts, when inconvienent, many times are ignored or they fabricate their own.

The reason for having confirmation? I will give you a prime example. In researching for my current book I needed to find out when Archduke Franz Ferdinand met his wife Sofie Chotek. I checked sources on line and found Wiki said they met in 1895, while Sparticus.schoolnet placed thier meeting in 1888. Which do you believe? Luckily for me it is a fictional bood I am writing so I can use the date that best fits the story.

< Message edited by morvwilson -- 12/6/2007 7:00:30 PM >


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Post #: 529
RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 12/6/2007 7:19:25 PM   
Procrustes

 

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I can't let it drop yet....

In the US we call it the felony murder rule. Coincidentally, there was just an article about this in the NY Times a couple of days ago - grab it before it disappears if you are interested:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/04/us/04felony.html

It's about a guy in Florida who is serving life because some friends borrowed his car to commit a robbery in which someone was killed. Here's a blurb that summarizes the legal controversy a bit:

A prosecutor explained the theory to the jury at Mr. Holle’s trial in Pensacola in 2004. “No car, no crime,” said the prosecutor, David Rimmer. “No car, no consequences. No car, no murder.”

Most scholars trace the doctrine, which is an aspect of the felony murder rule, to English common law, but Parliament abolished it in 1957. The felony murder rule, which has many variations, generally broadens murder liability for participants in violent felonies in two ways. An unintended killing during a felony is considered murder under the rule. So is, as Mr. Holle learned, a killing by an accomplice.

India and other common law countries have followed England in abolishing the doctrine. In 1990, the Canadian Supreme Court did away with felony murder liability for accomplices, saying it violated “the principle that punishment must be proportionate to the moral blameworthiness of the offender.”

Countries outside the common law tradition agree. “The view in Europe,” said James Q. Whitman, a professor of comparative law at Yale, “is that we hold people responsible for their own acts and not the acts of others.”

But prosecutors and victims’ rights groups in the United States say that punishing accomplices as though they had been the actual killers is perfectly appropriate.

“The felony murder rule serves important interests,” said Mr. Rimmer, the prosecutor in the Holle case, “because it holds all persons responsible for the actions of each other if they are all participating in the same crime.”


Carry on. (Where is that popcorn smiley? I need it here.)

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 530
RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 12/6/2007 8:11:43 PM   
mjk428

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

Actually you did miss something, yes. I used the example you posted and added the variables needed for it to become an example of collective guilt. Thus, you missunderstood the legal situation and thought it meant something it didnt. I showed you the variables that needed to be added for it to be a case of collective guilt.


No, I understood perfectly that you applied a racial stereotype to muddy the water.

Do you have any evidence that the "gang" they belonged to was larger than the four of them?

quote:


Not really, what you are doing is missunderstanding the legal reasoning behind the case.


I understand the legal reasoning and it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck but you insist it's not a duck. Whatever you call it, it's quite obvious that not all guilt is determined individually as you claim - not even in a courtroom.

For the 3rd time: Why would an attorney need to plead for his client to be treated individually when according to you that's the only way possible? "You're not a lawyer so you don't understand" is not an answer.

quote:


Sure, why not...lets play your little "I wish I was a lawyer so I knew what I was talking about"-game.

Now all you need to do now is to prove that each and every member of the Japanese military did indeed trespass. Good luck. If you fail, your collective guilt-case fails.


I don't wish I was a lawyer. Lawyers work for me. I've only worked for a lawyer one time, briefly. I had a hard time getting them to pay what they owed.

I really don't have to prove anything and it should be painfully obvious to boot. Every member of the Japanese military that was part of an invading force was somewhere they didn't belong. Just like a lawyer to leave out the qualifier bolded for your attention the second time around. Anyway, this line of attack was just for fun. You've already been beaten by David Brener & Procrustes. :)

quote:


LOL you're really reaching now, arent you? Why is it so important for you to try to defend his racist statements?


Because you fabricated the ones we are currently discussing. I would think a lawyer would understand that's just plain unacceptable.


PS - Thanks Procrustes.

< Message edited by mjk428 -- 12/6/2007 8:14:08 PM >


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Post #: 531
RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 12/6/2007 8:19:02 PM   
timtom


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The text below is lifted from my MPhil thesis (slightly edited). It's a social history of American Infantry in WWII. I briefly touch upon the issue of atrocities within the wider context of the psychological effects of combat on the individual, including his normative habitude. It follows upon a section dealing with incidents of prisoner-killings in Europe.

I might add that I've seen nothing to suggest these things to be a particularly American phenomenon in any way. I realise the below might not be what some gentlemen here would want to hear. I just hope that one will remember to rubbish the evidence, not the man :)






"Yet German prisoners were not killed because they were German. Combat in Europe was without the racial undertones that underlay warfare in the Pacific. As historian John Dower argues, the Pacific war was conducted within a paradigm of anti-Japanese racism in American cultural and political dialectic both before and during the war. One of the first observations of thoroughly humane Ernie Pyle, arriving to report on the Pacific war, was on the nature of the enemy:

...In Europe we felt our enemies, horrible and deadly as they were, were still people. But out here I’ve already gathered the feeling that the Japanese are looked upon as something inhuman and squirmy – like some people feel about cockroaches or mice. I’ve seen one group of Japanese prisoners in a wire-fenced court-yard, and they were wrestling and laughing and talking just as humanly as anybody. And yet they gave me a creepy feeling and I felt in need of a mental bath after looking at them (Nichols 1986, p.367.)...

Indeed, in wartime illustrations the Japanese were habitually caricatured as monkeys or vermin.

In table 17 we have already seen how the prospect of killing a Japanese soldier only troubles 22% of a sample of ordinary, decent young Americans, and positively appealed to 44% of them. The subject of American atrocities is necessarily a hazy one. Japanese atrocities against Allied civilians and prisoners are well known, and were well known contemporarily. Japanese battlefield atrocities, real or perceived, great or small, were quick to make the rumour circuit, and became part of a body of folklore affirming the base inhumanity of the Japanese. In one survey, the actual percentage of troops having witnessed a German or Japanese atrocity was the same (13%), but the number of men in the Pacific who had heard atrocity stories (45%) was double that of Europe (24%) (Stouffer 1949 vol.II, p.158; p.162.). The Japanese concepts of death before dishonour and the apparent disregard Japanese soldiers demonstrated for their own lives just proved the unfathomable and ultimately alien nature of the Japanese psyche. Japanese soldiers wanted to die, it seemed, and one was frankly doing everybody a service by helping them along.

Everything was alien to the soldiers in the Pacific. They fought an enemy who not only looked different, but with whom they shared no cultural, religious, or linguistic bonds what so ever, and whose cultural concepts of war were very different. Even the terrain and climate reeked of foreignness. Combat worked to debase the value of life and broke down established norms and taboos. With the added weight of mutual racism, the result was a war of extermination.

Some senior commanders were fairly blunt in their exhortations. Among those to go on record is Admiral William Halsey, commander of Allied forces in the Solomons. In one of many soundbites, he declared, “the only good Jap is a Jap who’s been dead six months” (Linderman 1997, p.178.); also General John DeWitt, commander of Army troops on the American West coast and Alaska, whose fatherly advice to the troops about to invade the Aleutians included “Kill! Kill! Kill all Japanese! The only good Jap is a dead Jap” (Perret 1991, p.270n.). Perhaps Charlie Burchett can be excused for his one regret about the war ending: “I wished I’d gotten more of the bastards” (McManus 2000, p.176.).

As in Europe, trophy collecting was universal. Unlike Europe, it was not limited to enemy equipment. The most common form seems to have been gold-teeth collecting. In a rare example of someone owning up to personally doing it, Michael Witowich explains how, after shooting a likely Japanese corpse in the head, “automatically the mouth opened up. Man! All them gold teeth staring at me. And I didn’t knock them out with a rifle, but I used pliers. I had a whole canteen of gold teeth” (Ries 2001, p.103). Another mode of extraction, Eugene Sledge explains, was by knife, “putting the tip of the blade on the tooth of the dead Japanese – I’ve seen guys do it to wounded ones – and hit the hilt of the knife to knock the tooth loose” (Terkel 1984, p.62.).

Other collectors items were fingers, ears, noses, bones, and skulls. Ship-bound for Guadalcanal, journalist Richard Tregaski overhead marines boasting about the ear- and gold-teeth they were going to collect (Dower 1986, pp.64-65.). If this phenomenon were purely the product of combat-induced moral disintegration, why would men of an untried division make such talk? On Luzon, Harry Akune recounts, one sailor turned up during a rare prisoner-interrogation asking to cut off the prisoner’s ears. “I promised my kids some Jap ears”, the sailor begs before being send off to find his own ears (O’Donnell 2003, p.200.). Presumably infantrymen with similar commitments could dispense with the begging. Charles Lindbergh spoke to a marine officer stating “our boys cut [ears and noses] off to show to their friends in fun, or to dry and take back to the States when they go. We found one marine with a Japanese head”. Going through customs on his return from the Pacific, Lindbergh is asked whether he had any bones to declare (Lindbergh 1970, pp.919-923.).

Occasionally newspapers and magazines at home ran human-interest stories about trophy collecting. One featured a concerned mother waiting to receive an ear from her son. Would the local council mind if she nailed it to the front door? Another was about an under-age boy who bribed his way into the Army: Against the promise of a pair of ears, the kid persuades a chaplain to verify his age. One soldier sent FDR a letter-opener carved from human bone. Another sent his fiancée a skull (Dower 1986, p.65.).

It is well-known that very few Japanese prisoners were taken and that the Japanese habitually chose suicide over surrender (or so the American sources tell us); however it seems that many Japanese that failed in this were expedited by their American foes. It is in the nature of things that it is impossible to ascertain exactly how widespread this was. One oddity shows up in table 17. The groups polled in questions one and four are identical. Answering question four obviously presupposes having seen a prisoner in the first place, and it will be noticed that the proportion of enlisted men answering the question is much higher in the Pacific than in Europe. In view of the supposed Japanese no-surrender policy, would one not expect the Pacific percentage to be lower? Similarly, of the 220 Korean labourers present on Makin at the time of the assault on that island, a minimum of 116 were killed (54%). On neighbouring Tarawa, 1,069 out of 1,198 Korean labourers wer killed (89%). Apparently the Japanese were not alone in fighting to the death (Crowl & Love 1955, p.71-73, p.125, p.156.).

In fact, even in Europe, feeling “all the more like killing them” was not an academic proposition: In Normandy, Rich Richardson’s outfit captured 30 oriental-looking Soviets in German service. They were all eventually gunned down, because, as the instigator reasoned, “the Japs killed my brother!” (Hastings 1993, p.100.) On Peleliu, Eugene Sledge tells us, “my company took two prisoners. At Okinawa, we took five. We had orders not to kill the wounded...but the feeling was strong” (Terkel 1984, p.62.). On Biak, a colonel of the 41st Infantry Division (nicknamed “The Butchers” after an incident involving a Japanese field hospital) told Charles Lindbergh that “our boys just don’t take prisoners”. “Well, some of our boys do kick their teeth in”, a soldier told Lindbergh of the Japanese, “but usually they kill them first”. Upon visiting an old friend on General MacArthur’s staff in Brisbane, the ex-governor of Wisconsin Phil La Folette, Lindbergh recorded: “It is freely admitted that some of our soldiers torture Jap prisoners...our men think nothing of shooting a Japanese prisoner or a soldier attempting to surrender. They treat the Jap with less respect than they would give an animal, and their acts are condoned by almost anyone” (Lindbergh 1970, p. 881; p.859; p.875). On New Guinea, Nelson Peery admits, “we saw all the brutality and in some instance just plain savagery against Japanese soldiers who were trying to surrender, or who had surrendered, who were shot or clubbed”. After a failed Japanese attack on an American position on Bougainville, Dennis Weaver overheard an exchange between a colonel and a general. Beyond the American perimeter the Japanese wounded lay a moaning carpet, the nearest on the wire almost within touching distance. “But sir, they are wounded and want to surrender”, gasps the colonel. “You heard me, colonel”, the general retorts, “I want no prisoners. Shoot them all” (Lewis 2001, p.169.). In Joseph Routledge’s outfit, going five island campaigns without taking a single prisoner was “the secret pride of our company” (Linderman 1997, p.178.)."

Reference:

Crowl, Phillip A. & Love, Edmund G.: Seizure of the Gilberts and Marshalls. Office of the Chief of Military History, Departmant of the Army 1955.
Dower, John: War without Mercy: Race and Power in the Pacific War. Faber & Faber 1986.
Hastings, Max: Overlord: D-Day and the Battle for Normandy. Papermac 1993.
Lewis, Jonathan & Steele, Ben: Hell in the Pacific. Channel Four Books 2001.
Lindbergh, Charles A.: The Wartime Journals of Charles A. Lindbergh. Hercourt Brace Jovanovich 1970.
Linderman, Gerald F.: The World Within War: America’s Combat Experience in World War II. The Free Press 1997
O’Donnell, Patrick K.: Into the Rising Sun: In Their Own Words, World War II’s Pacific Veterans Reveal the Heart of Combat. The Free Press 2003.
Perret, Geoffrey: There’s a War to be Won: The United States Army in World War II. Ballantine Books 1997.
McManus, John C.: The Deadly Brotherhood: The American Combat Soldier in World War II. Presidio 2000.
Nichols, David (ed.): Ernie’s War: The Best of Ernie Pyle’s World War II Dispatches. Random House 1986.
Ries, Laurence: Horror in the East. BBC Worldwide 2001.
Stouffer, S.A. et al.: The American Soldier vol.I-II. Princeton University Press 1949.
Terkel, Studs: The Good War: An Oral History of World War II. Pantheon Books 1984

[edited for spelling]

< Message edited by timtom -- 12/7/2007 5:45:16 AM >


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(in reply to morvwilson)
Post #: 532
RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 12/6/2007 8:26:11 PM   
Procrustes

 

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Thanks, timtom - very interesting.

Best wishes,

Procrustes

(in reply to timtom)
Post #: 533
RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 12/6/2007 8:28:49 PM   
Ike99


Posts: 1747
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From: A Sand Road
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quote:

morvwilson-Thanks for the above Ike, your source explains a lot about your positions. To be perfectly honest with you, "observer.guardian" is not a credible source.



Not a credible source?! What the hell does the link have to do with anything?!

It is a V-I-D-E-O. You know ¨Film¨, moving pictures and stuff?

The source is combat cameramen from the Pacifc Theatre. Credible enough for you?





(in reply to timtom)
Post #: 534
RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 12/6/2007 8:37:24 PM   
mjk428

 

Posts: 1944
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

I'm beginning to wonder if this is little more than an excercise on your part. Since attorney's need to keep their argumentative skills honed it appears more and more that you continue to participate mearly for the excercise since a fair number of your arguments are completely circular and self perpetuating.


You're probably right.

However, for the sake of the Swedish legal system, I think we need to continue providing an opportunity for the honing of "skills".

"You're a racist" and "I"m a lawyer" isn't going to get very far. Hmm, actually the former did work out pretty well for old number 32. Still, the latter won't carry much weight in a room full of them.


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Post #: 535
RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 12/6/2007 8:40:29 PM   
Ike99


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Good post timtom. It´s well know the two sides hated each other and nothing was beyond the limit for either side.

I´m not sure if some people here saying it didn´t happen or excuse it do so out of hmmmm....collective guilt?

< Message edited by Ike99 -- 12/6/2007 8:42:07 PM >

(in reply to mjk428)
Post #: 536
RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 12/6/2007 8:59:35 PM   
HansBolter


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I agree that it was a good post by timtom, but it did include a few inaccurcies.

To say that the war in Europe did not have the same racial untertones as the war in the Pacific needs to be properly qualified as it's broad sweep makes it incorrect.

While it is true that the war in WESTERN Europe did not have the same, or similar racial undertones as the war in the Pacific, it is not correct for the war in EASTERN Europe. The entire reference falls prey to the decidely Anglo-American chauvinistic tendency to disregard the Eastern Front when discussing the War in Europe.

However, it can probably be arued effectively that the degree of racial undertone in the Eastern Front was no where near as strong or pervasive as it was in the Pacific.

< Message edited by HansBolter -- 12/6/2007 9:00:45 PM >

(in reply to Ike99)
Post #: 537
RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 12/6/2007 9:02:19 PM   
mjk428

 

Posts: 1944
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quote:

ORIGINAL: timtom

"Yet German prisoners were not killed because they were German. Combat in Europe was without the racial undertones the underlay warfare in the Pacific. As historian John Dower argues, the Pacific war was conducted within a paradigm of a anti-Japanese racism in American cultural and political dialectic both before and during the war. One of the first observations of thoroughly humane Ernie Pyle, arriving to report on the Pacific war, was on the nature of the enemy:

...In Europe we felt our enemies, horrible and deadly as they were, were still people. But out here I’ve already gathered the feeling that the Japanese are looked upon as something inhuman and squirmy – like some people feel about cockroaches or mice. I’ve seen one group of Japanese prisoners in a wire-fenced court-yard, and they were wrestling and laughing and talking just as humanly as anybody. And yet they gave me a creepy feeling and I felt in need of a mental bath after looking at them (Nichols 1986, p.367.)...

Indeed, in wartime illustrations the Japanese were habitually caricatured as monkeys or vermin.


A couple of things. First, the Japanese attacked the US, so it's natural that they would have been more hated even if they didn't look any different than Germans.

Second, Japanese atrocities were well known before the US entered the war and were fully confirmed in the early months of the war. Nazi atrocities weren't uncovered to the point that they were common knowledge until the very end. Also, the Germans behavior on the battlefield was for the most part, within the bounds of the Geneva Convention. The Japanese virtually never treated their enemies decently from first contact through capture. So it isn't simply that Germans were viewed better by Americans because the opposite was also true. Take the above poll amongst GIs that witnessed what happened at the Death Camps and you'll very likely see different the results.

Third, US soldiers were mostly of European descent. Many probably never even saw a Japanese person until they met in combat. No surprise to me that my Irish/German father wouldn't be looking forward to shooting at his cousins. That did change though once he got a firsthand view of The Holocaust.

Fourth, No doubt there was also an element of racism. For many in the poll it may have been all about race. However I think it's wrong to attribute the poll results simply to racism.


Finally, pointing out racism towards the citizens of Japan & Germany, the most violently racist countries of all time - at the time, really takes the cake. That's not aimed at you timtom, just the evidence. :)

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RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 12/6/2007 9:03:21 PM   
HansBolter


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ike99

Good post timtom. It´s well know the two sides hated each other and nothing was beyond the limit for either side.

I´m not sure if some people here saying it didn´t happen or excuse it do so out of hmmmm....collective guilt?



None of them are saying it didn't happen and none of them are excusing it.

That is your mistaken defensive stance at being taking to task for your prejudiced efforts to hold them up on a balance sacle and proclaim them EQUAL.

One was doctrine...one was not. It is simple fact you continue to bury your head in the sand in denial of.

(in reply to Ike99)
Post #: 539
RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 12/6/2007 9:16:48 PM   
Big B

 

Posts: 4870
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ike99

Good post timtom. It´s well know the two sides hated each other and nothing was beyond the limit for either side.

I´m not sure if some people here saying it didn´t happen or excuse it do so out of hmmmm....collective guilt?

The only post I'm going to make on this thread...

I would not disagree with any of timtom's post, and I have long speculated that the low number of Japanese prisoners taken through most of the Pacific War was in part because the Allies (Americans anyway) weren't too interested in taking Japanese alive.

The Pacific War was (IMHO) prosecuted to racist extremes...on both sides - and beginning with extreme sadistic racism by the Japanese. Their unbelievable actions in China before the war even shocked the Nazi's who witnessed it, and immediately followed by Japanese barbarity towards white soldiers and sailors in the early days of the war - and conquered Asians as well. To attempt to catalog it all would take teams of researchers years to compile. Just read of the barbarous mass murder-rape of British nurses at a hospital Hong Kong to terrorize the British into surrendering, or Balikpapan, and on and on. The no mercy ground rules were laid early by the Japanese (VERY much unlike what happened in the 1904-1905 Russo-Japanese War).

So to me you have all the ingredients Total War of Annihilation waged ruthlessly. Given the alien cultural "War of the Worlds/ Armageddon" nature of the event, I have no doubt that by mid to late 1942, mercy wasn't going to be shown anymore. In other words - it got very primeval.

Does that mean Americans were guilty of racism? Sure it does...if you demand that all of the guys on your team must at all times be saints or J.C. himself. But for mere humans - I don't think so.

On a finishing note - regardless of whatever went before in the war, let's not forget that as Japan crumbled and Japanese civilians fell into American hands - mass rape/torture/murder did not occur...and on Okinawa when the first large surrender of Japanese troops to Americans took place - they were taken prisoner, not marched into the sea and drowned. In other words, when it was time to "turn it off" Americans did.



And that's all I'm going to say about that...

(in reply to Ike99)
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