why do air units rest so much?

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Norm Koger's The Operational Art Of War III >> Scenario Design >> why do air units rest so much?

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why do air units rest so much? - 11/16/2007 3:05:56 AM

Adam Rinkleff

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So I have an air unit, and I set formation supply to 100, and formation prof to 100, and unit supply to 100, and unit prof to 100, and unit readi to 100... and the planes fly around for only like a little bit, and maybe someone gets shot down, and they all go on strike, change their orders, and decide to rest for as long as they can until I manually step in an order them back to work. Is that supposed to be happening? It is a very annoying thing to have happen. Can I have a button declaring that all pilots who decide to rest will be summarily shot?

< Message edited by AdamRinkleff -- 11/16/2007 3:07:40 AM >

Post #: 1

RE: why do air units rest so much? - 11/16/2007 5:01:31 AM

a white rabbit

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..10% losses are considered insupportable for air units, they're just fragile little babies

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RE: why do air units rest so much? - 11/16/2007 5:56:33 AM

ColinWright

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If you're talking about the air assistant, I'd like to know how to get the damned thing to stay off. It's tedious having to check each round to be sure the units I set to rest are still resting.

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RE: why do air units rest so much? - 11/16/2007 6:07:50 AM

Adam Rinkleff

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quote:

It's tedious having to check each round to be sure the units I set to rest are still resting.

Well, I got the opposite problem; I want the damn planes to be on air superiority, and I don't care how tired they are, but they just want to rest rest rest all day and night until I tell them to get back to work.

(in reply to ColinWright)

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RE: why do air units rest so much? - 11/16/2007 6:13:44 AM

ColinWright

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AdamRinkleff

quote:

It's tedious having to check each round to be sure the units I set to rest are still resting.

Well, I got the opposite problem; I want the damn planes to be on air superiority, and I don't care how tired they are, but they just want to rest rest rest all day and night until I tell them to get back to work.

I've had that problem with employees myself. 'What the ****? Barely eighty hours this week and you're tired?'

Are you sure you're making historically reasonable demands of these units? The game is supposed to simulate units behaving as they do in real life -- which may or may not coincide with how you want them to behave.

Note that if you push your air units too hard, they'll evaporate or go into reorganization. It's not pretty -- but try giving them high unit proficiency and setting them to 'ignore losses' if you really want them to give their all.

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RE: why do air units rest so much? - 11/16/2007 6:23:54 AM

desert

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Well, if units are on air superiority, they engage enemy planes(also on AS?). This causes losses, sort of like combat but without a report. If a unit takes too many losses or perhaps some other random chance based on prof and supply, they will go into reorganization, which can take quite a while.

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RE: why do air units rest so much? - 11/16/2007 6:36:23 AM

Adam Rinkleff

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quote:

Are you sure you're making historically reasonable demands of these units?

Yes, I am; that's the problem with this forum, is all of you think TOAW is historically accurate (those who don't have long since moved on to other stuff), and you assume it's just a perfect little engine, and that anyone who complains otherwise is simply too ignorant to understand the historical basis for all the wonderful facts of TOAW. I know goddamn well that there is no reason for my units to be resting; if they want to send me a memo and beg for a rest, fine, but meanwhile they need to get those planes up in the air and actually make a contribution. I have a master's degree in military history, and I know goddamn well that real air forces keep slugging it out unlike these babied units.

quote:

If a unit takes too many losses or perhaps some other random chance based on prof and supply, they will go into reorganization, which can take quite a while.

No kidding desert? I don't want to be rude, but maybe you should just stop trying to respond to what I write, because everything you say is some really lame attempt to explain the pedantically obvious. Yes, I know that a unit which takes losses has a chance to go into reorganization for a while... the problem is that it goes into reorganization too easily, and for too long.

< Message edited by AdamRinkleff -- 11/16/2007 6:38:28 AM >

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RE: why do air units rest so much? - 11/16/2007 6:37:40 AM

desert

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quote:

and I know goddamn well that real air forces keep slugging it out unlike these babied units.

Time-period specific, perhaps?

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RE: why do air units rest so much? - 11/16/2007 6:38:32 AM

Adam Rinkleff

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quote:

Time-period specific, perhaps?

Is there a point here?

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RE: why do air units rest so much? - 11/16/2007 6:40:44 AM

desert

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Not anymore -you don't seem to want to hear it.

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RE: why do air units rest so much? - 11/16/2007 6:43:05 AM

Adam Rinkleff

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quote:

Not anymore -you don't seem to want to hear it.

Yer right, I don't; it doesn't really matter what time period my scenarios are simulating, the fact of the matter is that the program crams Norms personal combat equations down everyone's throat, and no amount of adjusting proficiency, supply, AP, DF, or anything seems to change the root equations. Those of you who think otherwise are simply too inexperienced and unfamiliar with the program, regardless of how incessantly you proclaim its wonderful historical accuracy. There is only ONE question being asked at this thread, and that is how to stop air units from spontaneously deciding to go on vacation; if it can't be done, then TOAW has a problem which needs to be fixed. I'm not at all interested in hearing how justified the current situation is, because I know better.

< Message edited by AdamRinkleff -- 11/16/2007 6:45:01 AM >

(in reply to desert)

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RE: why do air units rest so much? - 11/16/2007 6:58:13 AM

Veers

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AdamRinkleff

quote:

Are you sure you're making historically reasonable demands of these units?

Yes, I am; that's the problem with this forum, is all of you think TOAW is historically accurate (those who don't have long since moved on to other stuff), and you assume it's just a perfect little engine, and that anyone who complains otherwise is simply too ignorant to understand the historical basis for all the wonderful facts of TOAW. I know goddamn well that there is no reason for my units to be resting; if they want to send me a memo and beg for a rest, fine, but meanwhile they need to get those planes up in the air and actually make a contribution. I have a master's degree in military history, and I know goddamn well that real air forces keep slugging it out unlike these babied units.

quote:

If a unit takes too many losses or perhaps some other random chance based on prof and supply, they will go into reorganization, which can take quite a while.

No kidding desert? I don't want to be rude, but maybe you should just stop trying to respond to what I write, because everything you say is some really lame attempt to explain the pedantically obvious. Yes, I know that a unit which takes losses has a chance to go into reorganization for a while... the problem is that it goes into reorganization too easily, and for too long.

Wow...somebody needs to lay off the decaf. Adam, little rants like this are certainly not helping you. Especially against desert, who's really the only gy willing to even read the whole of your posts anymore.

quote:

I have a master's degree in military history, and I know goddamn well that real air forces keep slugging it out unlike these babied units.

Did I mention I'm the King of Canada. God bless the internet.

< Message edited by Veers -- 11/16/2007 7:01:45 AM >

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RE: why do air units rest so much? - 11/16/2007 7:05:43 AM

Adam Rinkleff

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quote:

little rants like this are certainly not helping you.

Oh, right, because you have the power to change anything? Yah, like I might actually care what you think. If the forum is dominated by narrow-minded trolls like you, I'm not really going to care how my comments are viewed. Sorry dude, I'm not going to sit here and suck on TOAW and proclaim how great it is; it isn't that great, maybe it could be, but it's not.

< Message edited by AdamRinkleff -- 11/16/2007 7:07:14 AM >

(in reply to Veers)

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RE: why do air units rest so much? - 11/16/2007 7:10:02 AM

Veers

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AdamRinkleff

quote:

little rants like this are certainly not helping you.

Oh, right, because you have the power to change anything? Yah, like I might actually care what you think. If the forum is dominated by narrow-minded trolls like you, I'm not really going to care how my comments are viewed. Sorry dude, I'm not going to sit here and suck on TOAW and proclaim how great it is; it isn't that great, maybe it could be, but it's not.

Wait, wait, wait a sec, let me get this straight. You...are calling me...a troll?

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RE: why do air units rest so much? - 11/16/2007 7:10:50 AM

sPzAbt653

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quote:

how to stop air units from spontaneously deciding to go on vacation

If you make the air units stay on assigned missions instead of automatically resting, then you would have to go around checking to see which units are close to evaporation or reorganisation (which affects the whole formation). So either one way or the other, you have to keep an eye on things. Or maybe I missed the point here.
Certainly in large scenarios this is a chore, but that is what large scenarios are for, to keep us occupied on many levels. Smaller scenarios only require a couple seconds to check the units. Me, I'd rather check the state of each unit so I can decide what to do with it. Typically, in the large scenario, I click the 'air briefing' button during my turn to see if my air superiority value has changed after a combat. That tells me if any of my units decided to have a siesta in the middle of the offensive, and I can order them back. It also tells me if the unit is down to 33% effectiveness and 8 out of 36 planes. I better let them rest or risk disintegration.

'No Distintegration'

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RE: why do air units rest so much? - 11/16/2007 7:17:25 AM

Adam Rinkleff

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quote:

Wait, wait, wait a sec, let me get this straight. You...are calling me...a troll?

Yah, I don't go to your threads, I don't follow you, I don't come find where you have been posting and try to argue -- I only respond to you when you come to a thread I started, and try to attack me. It is you who is trolling, and all I'm trying to do is engage in constructive criticism of the program. Frankly, I don't care what you think, and I'd rather you never responded to anything I wrote; your lame picture tells me all I need to know about your personality.

quote:

Certainly in large scenarios this is a chore

That's really my whole point; it is extremely annoying to have to constantly check up on the air units, and furthermore, so far as I can tell, there is no code which encourages them to return to active-duty afterwards... maybe they do that eventually, but it seems to me that once they start resting, they'll do that for the rest of the war unless I actively intervene. I understand the importance of keeping an eye on things, etc, etc, but if a unit with 100% prof, 100% supply, 100% readi, in a formation with 100% supply, 100% prof, in a force with high supply/prof will typically start resting after just a day or two of fairly low-intensity combat... well, it's not accurate. I know we don't have the equations, and so we can't talk about specific details of what is happening; however, it seems clear to me that the air units should continue with their mission, except in very rare cases of mutiny.

It's one thing to reorganize in the field while in contact with the enemy, its another thing entirely when people at an airfield refuse to start their engines. If I were a commander, I'd drive out there and order them up at gunpoint; that's the sort of ability I want TOAW to give me. Maybe in some armies a commander can't do that, but in some armies they CAN; and if TOAW wants to be realistic, then it needs to replicate that.

< Message edited by AdamRinkleff -- 11/16/2007 7:25:45 AM >

(in reply to Veers)

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RE: why do air units rest so much? - 11/16/2007 7:22:06 AM

Veers

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AdamRinkleff
Yah, I don't go to your threads, I don't follow you, I don't come find where you have been posting and try to argue -- I only respond to you when you come to a thread I started, and try to attack me. It is you who is trolling, and all I'm trying to do is engage in constructive criticism of the program. Frankly, I don't care what you think, and I'd rather you never responded to anything I wrote; your lame picture tells me all I need to know about your personality.

Attack? Attack? Adam, buddy, I haven't attacked you, all I've done is laughed at and made fun of you. There's a difference.

Oh, and by the way, it might help edjumicate you if you did actually follow another thread or two. ;)

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RE: why do air units rest so much? - 11/16/2007 7:23:00 AM

Adam Rinkleff

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quote:

Attack? Attack? Adam, buddy, I haven't attacked you, all I've done is laughed at and made fun of you.

Are you seriously this immature?

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RE: why do air units rest so much? - 11/16/2007 7:33:20 AM

ColinWright

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quote:

...If I were a commander, I'd drive out there and order them up at gunpoint; that's the sort of ability I want TOAW to give me. Maybe in some armies a commander can't do that, but in some armies they CAN; and if TOAW wants to be realistic, then it needs to replicate that.

Yeah. This is called 'setting the unit to ignore losses.' Sometimes even this doesn't work: see the French Army Mutiny, for example. Sometimes it 'works' in the sense of the unit stumbling off and evaporating -- as with Zhukov's attempts to continue attacking in Operation Mars. Less dramatically, and more frequently, units just go through the motions. As in Grant's regiments simply raising up their muskets in the air at Cold Harbor and firing them off to simulate the 'attack' when he ordered them to renew the assault.

TOAW really is pretty realistic. At any rate, and by and large, it's better than most of your suggestions would make it. You can't order air units to fly if they haven't got petrol, or if they've expended all their bombs, or if 83% of the aircraft are unserviceable at the moment. Or to be be precise, you can order them to fly. You can order them to do anything you like. Whether anything will happen as a consequence is another matter. Hitler had this experience a lot towards the end of the war.

< Message edited by ColinWright -- 11/16/2007 7:35:40 AM >

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RE: why do air units rest so much? - 11/16/2007 7:37:12 AM

Veers

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AdamRinkleff

quote:

Attack? Attack? Adam, buddy, I haven't attacked you, all I've done is laughed at and made fun of you.

Are you seriously this immature?

Mmmaybe...

< Message edited by Veers -- 11/16/2007 7:38:00 AM >

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RE: why do air units rest so much? - 11/16/2007 8:46:09 AM

Adam Rinkleff

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quote:

TOAW really is pretty realistic.

NO, its not -- that's the problem, is you people honestly don't know what you are talking about, and your egos won't allow someone else to interject a counter-opinion.

quote:

You can't order air units to fly if they haven't got petrol

100% supply units should not run out of fuel within a day or two; are you reading what I'm writing, or just obsessed with disagreeing???

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RE: why do air units rest so much? - 11/16/2007 9:07:08 AM

ColinWright

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AdamRinkleff

quote:

TOAW really is pretty realistic.

NO, its not -- that's the problem, is you people honestly don't know what you are talking about, and your egos won't allow someone else to interject a counter-opinion.

Lol. Did you happen to be standing in front of a mirror when that came into your head?

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RE: why do air units rest so much? - 11/16/2007 12:10:35 PM

a white rabbit

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quote:

ORIGINAL: desert

quote:

and I know goddamn well that real air forces keep slugging it out unlike these babied units.

Time-period specific, perhaps?

..very few, and they tend to be the exception rather than the rule, especially as planes get more complex, sticking a few patches on a Camel and waiting for the glue to dry is one thing, fixing holes in the same place in any modern jet is not quite the same level of technology..

< Message edited by a white rabbit -- 11/16/2007 12:19:44 PM >

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RE: why do air units rest so much? - 11/16/2007 12:22:34 PM

a white rabbit

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AdamRinkleff

quote:

TOAW really is pretty realistic.

.

quote:

You can't order air units to fly if they haven't got petrol

100% supply units should not run out of fuel within a day or two;

..take a look at the fuel consumption figures for a combat jet..

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RE: why do air units rest so much? - 11/16/2007 12:22:34 PM

golden delicious

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AdamRinkleff

quote:

TOAW really is pretty realistic.

NO, its not -- that's the problem, is you people honestly don't know what you are talking about, and your egos won't allow someone else to interject a counter-opinion.

TOAW is pretty realistic. You've got your MA in military history- cool. The US Army I'm sure has a lot of people with the same, and they considered TOAW to be realistic enough to use for their own studies.

Now, I happen to think that the initial reaction to this thread was coloured by people's perceptions of you. As it happens this issue has been raised before.

The argument that was made at the time was that this effect happens so that your air force can get caught with its pants down in the middle of an operation just the same as your army can. So early turn ending means that infantry aren't dug in, artillery aren't supporting because they were just bombarding one place- and fighters aren't able to intercept enemy bombers on one part of the front because they were fighting elsewhere on your turn.

Maybe this explanation isn't sufficient. However I feel that it's important to give it since all you've had so far is a shouting match- which you have happily exacerbated.

< Message edited by golden delicious -- 11/16/2007 12:25:58 PM >

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RE: why do air units rest so much? - 11/16/2007 3:01:53 PM

Adam Rinkleff

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quote:

fixing holes in the same place in any modern jet is not quite the same level of technology..

And who said I was talking about modern jets? Why are you all so insistent on assuming that I'm wrong, without any idea of what is actually happening on my computer? I'm using 100% supplies across the board, and you guys are talking about running out of fuel... if that's what happens on 100% supply, then TOAW should be fixed to give people a little more flexibility.

quote:

The US Army I'm sure has a lot of people with the same, and they considered TOAW to be realistic enough to use for their own studies.

Given their track record, I'm not too impressed. There are LOTS of examples of air forces fighting on under extreme duress; I am not asking all of you how I can model a weak ultra-modern delicate force, but how I can model an effective air force with reliable machinery and excellent ground crews. TOAW seems to be using a one-size fits all equation, and rather than trying to understand it so that it can be fixed, everyone here seems almost obsessed with proving how wonderful it is. Groupthink is not cool!

You said this issue was brought up before; well, what was done to fix it? I rather doubt you guys convinced the people who brought this up before; my guess, is they simply left the TOAW community, and what good did that do?

Look, maybe everyone here is all pro army, and you don't think much of the air force... but honestly, air force pilots will usually keep flying as long as even just ONE plane is working. All I want to do is create an air force that does that, instead of being lectured to about how wrong my impressions are. And if TOAW can't model this, because someone wrote an equation which forces designers to accept super-delicate planes... then just admit it, and acknowledge the problem.

< Message edited by AdamRinkleff -- 11/16/2007 3:15:40 PM >

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RE: why do air units rest so much? - 11/16/2007 4:04:37 PM

golden delicious

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AdamRinkleff

Given their track record, I'm not too impressed.

Is it your opinion that you are a superior authority than the US Army on whether a wargame is realistic?

quote:

You said this issue was brought up before; well, what was done to fix it?

Nothing- I just gave you the reason why this is a feature not a bug.

I can understand that it is annoying for this to happen to you. However this feature is there to ensure that your fighter force is not always ready to act anywhere on the map against enemy airpower if it has been heavily engaged elsewhere earlier in the turn. I disagree with the explanations offered above. Clearly a well-supplied unit going onto "rest" does not represent running out of fuel. It represents the fact that your air force cannot be everywhere at once, and sometimes it gets caught out.

You should note that in addition to your manually setting them back, airfield attacks tend to trigger units on "rest" going back to air superiority.

quote:

I rather doubt you guys convinced the people who brought this up before; my guess, is they simply left the TOAW community,

I can't recall who brought it up before, but I doubt they left the TOAW community. Very few people are that petty.

quote:

Look, maybe everyone here is all pro army

Norm Koger is a veteran of the US air force.

< Message edited by golden delicious -- 11/16/2007 4:52:52 PM >

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Post #: 27

RE: why do air units rest so much? - 11/16/2007 4:26:48 PM

a white rabbit

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AdamRinkleff

quote:

fixing holes in the same place in any modern jet is not quite the same level of technology..

And who said I was talking about modern jets? Why are you all so insistent on assuming that I'm wrong, without any idea of what is actually happening on my computer? I'm using 100% supplies across the board, and you guys are talking about running out of fuel... if that's what happens on 100% supply, then TOAW should be fixed to give people a little more flexibility.

quote:

The US Army I'm sure has a lot of people with the same, and they considered TOAW to be realistic enough to use for their own studies.

Given their track record, I'm not too impressed. There are LOTS of examples of air forces fighting on under extreme duress; I am not asking all of you how I can model a weak ultra-modern delicate force, but how I can model an effective air force with reliable machinery and excellent ground crews. TOAW seems to be using a one-size fits all equation, and rather than trying to understand it so that it can be fixed, everyone here seems almost obsessed with proving how wonderful it is. Groupthink is not cool!

You said this issue was brought up before; well, what was done to fix it? I rather doubt you guys convinced the people who brought this up before; my guess, is they simply left the TOAW community, and what good did that do?

Look, maybe everyone here is all pro army, and you don't think much of the air force... but honestly, air force pilots will usually keep flying as long as even just ONE plane is working. All I want to do is create an air force that does that, instead of being lectured to about how wrong my impressions are. And if TOAW can't model this, because someone wrote an equation which forces designers to accept super-delicate planes... then just admit it, and acknowledge the problem.

..take a look at the Japanese air units in South Pacific Struggle, sometimes they fly till around 1/3rd strength, sometimes the same unit craps out at 3/4 strength. If you want kamikaze, then look at the Japanese air design in Okinawa. Both scens give air the right feel and fit the historical use, what more do you want ?

..get the perspective right here, you are not the air group/wing commander, it isn't your role in a toaw scen. Air is something you call on, if it can fly it will, if it can't it won't, and the reasons air won't fly are many, from lack of serviceable aircraft to fog on the runway, you don't control any of these factors. The battle of the Bulge is just one battle where air was grounded by weather, there are many others. Don't you think that asking for 100% control, regardless of all external factors is just a tad unrealistic and anhistorical...

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Post #: 28

RE: why do air units rest so much? - 11/16/2007 5:18:02 PM

Radu

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I'd like to put my two cents in, preferably without leading to more temper flaring.

First,AdamRinkleff, when you dismiss the modelling of air combat in TOAW, you do so in what quality? Just as it has been asked before,are you military educated to question the expertise of the designers? Or just a frustrated gamer? Do you know for a *fact* that airforce operations are merely reduced to hopping in the plane,without a significant logistical/planning effort, entailing significant man-hours?

Second. Could you offer some additional details regarding the context of the occurrence ? In which scenario did this occur specifically? What losses did the unit take? Is it reorganization (complete with the orange bar) what you're talking about, or merely a sudden switch from 'Air Superiority' to 'Rest'? What does the Airforce Briefing Screen say before/after the purported mis-functioning?

< Message edited by Radu -- 11/16/2007 5:20:01 PM >

(in reply to a white rabbit)

Post #: 29

RE: why do air units rest so much? - 11/16/2007 6:10:47 PM

Veers

Posts: 1324
Joined: 6/6/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

quote:

ORIGINAL: AdamRinkleff

quote:

TOAW really is pretty realistic.

NO, its not -- that's the problem, is you people honestly don't know what you are talking about, and your egos won't allow someone else to interject a counter-opinion.

Lol. Did you happen to be standing in front of a mirror when that came into your head?

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(in reply to ColinWright)

Post #: 30

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