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RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri

 
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RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri - 11/28/2007 10:50:10 PM   
Karri

 

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If I recall correctly, you only attacked my aircraft on turn 1. Then on turn 2, 3 etc. I moved all aircraft to safety. Not much casualties...plus the US aircraft is a nice addition. Fungwu then took his aircraft of the air for a few turns, in which time the units recovered from reorganisation, this turn the air superiority was down to 30. The production is massive indeed, I have several thousand aircraft on pool ready to be used as replacements.

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RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri - 11/28/2007 10:53:00 PM   
SMK-at-work

 

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the Soviets have huge reserves of Yak-1's - over 1000 right from teh start - you can never shoot enough of them down and the limit on having them at hte front is the number of units!

How come Karri is limited to 6000 rail?

The soviets used a huge amount of rail capacity to shift fatories east - I think I remember somewhere that one of the factories at Kharkov (or it may have been the whole of Kharkov?) took 8000 trains, and LW recce pilots reported long strings of carriages. 

Soviet rail could arguably increase once that process has finished - about November 41 IIRC, but 12000 vs 8000 for the Axis is a pretty good ratio already.

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RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri - 11/28/2007 10:57:49 PM   
Karri

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

How come Karri is limited to 6000 rail?




Because the fascist stole the other 6000 by capturing Moscow.

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RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri - 11/28/2007 11:03:55 PM   
Karri

 

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I've been thinking of another way to deal with shock. I assume Event Engine Variable is not used for anything right now in the scenario.

So, assume that the EEV starts at 100 on turn 1. It decreases by certain events and/or by turn. It can be increased by capturing cities.
So we would simply assign a soviet shock value for each EEV value. Or perhaps an Axis shock value(increases shock naturally)?

The problem is however mud period, offensives, other events etc. we would need a way around those.

Now the point would be to force the Soviets to defend forward, or at least use far more 'speed bumps'...for example early capture of Kiev would cause shock penalties for Soviets. Right now the Soviets can simply abandon everything west of Leningrad-Smolensk-Dnepropetroskov -line without worrying about anything.

Or perhaps tie it down to production, ie. not all factories were evacuated...?

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RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri - 11/28/2007 11:33:10 PM   
SMK-at-work

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Karri


quote:

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

How come Karri is limited to 6000 rail?




Because the fascist stole the other 6000 by capturing Moscow.


Oh - so self inflicted through incompetence then!!

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RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri - 11/28/2007 11:44:15 PM   
Fungwu

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Karri

I've been thinking of another way to deal with shock. I assume Event Engine Variable is not used for anything right now in the scenario.

So, assume that the EEV starts at 100 on turn 1. It decreases by certain events and/or by turn. It can be increased by capturing cities.
So we would simply assign a soviet shock value for each EEV value. Or perhaps an Axis shock value(increases shock naturally)?

The problem is however mud period, offensives, other events etc. we would need a way around those.

Now the point would be to force the Soviets to defend forward, or at least use far more 'speed bumps'...for example early capture of Kiev would cause shock penalties for Soviets. Right now the Soviets can simply abandon everything west of Leningrad-Smolensk-Dnepropetroskov -line without worrying about anything.

Or perhaps tie it down to production, ie. not all factories were evacuated...?




This is the EEV system from DNO: (For those who don't know Drang Nach Osten, same map same scenario, but only goes till FEB 1942)


3.1 Escalating German Momentum
• The Event Engine Variable (EEV) is essentially an abstract expression of Soviet morale. A high EEV can cause Soviet shock penalties as well as increase the possibility of sudden death if Moscow falls; as well, possible Turkish intervention is keyed to EEV levels as detailed below. The EEV level at the start is zero.
• The loss of specific key cities will increase the EEV variable by a range of percentages, usually expressed as three possible integers. Essentially: the faster the Germans take one of these locations, the higher the EEV increase.
• Every city which figures into this complex matrix has an asterisk (*) after its name on the map and is listed below for reference.
• A possible German sudden-death victory at the time Moscow is captured has its % chance of happening directly keyed to the EEV level at that moment in time. Whenever the Kremlin falls to German forces the month this occurs in is compared with the EEV level to generate a probability roll for sudden death. In other words: the higher the EEV percentage, and the sooner the capture of Moscow, the more likely the Soviet state will collapse. Secondly, if the EEV level reaches 100 there are Soviet shock and pestilence effects detailed below.
• Soviet EEV cities are listed with the turn for capture from left to right indicating 12%/8%/4% increases; for example, capture of Minsk on turn 6 will give the Axis an 8% EEV increase:

City Turns
12% / 8% / 4% --EEV increase

Minsk (67,95): <3 / 4-8 / >8
Kiev (83,134): <19 / 19-27 / >27
Odessa (84,175): <17 / 17-25 / >25
Smolensk (101,88): <10 / 10-15 / >15
Dneprpetrovsk (120,156) <26 / 26-32 / >32
Kharkov (129,140): <29 / 29-36 / >36
Orel (129,109): <26 / 26-32 / >32
Tula (140,94): <31 / 31-39/ >39

Leningrad (93,32): 30% at all times
Sevastopol (106,198): 15% at all times

3.2 German Victory
• Capture of Moscow prior to turn 30 results in a German sudden-death victory under all conditions. Capture of Moscow after turn 55 (1942) has no effect for sudden-death purposes.
• The following table lays out the probability-roll used at the moment the Germans capture Moscow from turn 30 to turn 55. The columns fall into two groups along the top representing an early capture of Moscow (turns 30-43), and a late capture (turns 44-55). The vertical list to the left is the EEV level used at the moment of capture to generate the probability:

EEV turns 30-43 turns 44-55

50 20% 10%
60 30% 15%
70 40% 20%
80 50% 25%
90 60% 30%
100 70% 35%

• NOTE: If a probability sudden death occurs the game will not end. The Axis will receive a Theatre Option indicating Stalin has offered peace terms. It is up to the players to negotiate whether they wish to ignore this and continue at this point. At the very least the Axis player can copy the result in the Recent News as proof of his decisive victory; however, it is finally the German player’s call in this event: he earned it, and can flip the switch to end it if he so chooses.
• After the fall of Moscow there is a variable turn delay before the sudden-death roll and results: this is to prevent unscrupulous Axis players from restarting saved games endlessly to attain the result. Anyone who attempts this is not worthy of this project and should command nothing more than a punitive battalion (!).

3.3 Fall of Moscow with No Sudden-Death
• In addition to the above, in the event of a failed sudden-death roll with the capture of Moscow at any point, or if the players decide to keep playing anyway, there is a sliding scale of possible pestilence and shock which will affect the Soviets for 6-10 turns (variable) following capture of Moscow. Percentage after the figure indicates the probability of that event happening.

Turn Pestilence level/% Shock /%

30-40 3/80 90/80
41-50 3/60 90/60
51-60 3/40 90/40
61+ nil nil

• Note: Pestilence is a percentage of available equipment that is subtracted from every weapons category, in every unit, every turn. In this case it represents disintegrating Soviet command control and increased desertions. Thus the capture of Moscow on October 31, which FAILS to result in sudden death, will mean there is an 80% chance of 3% pestilence and 90% shock (each odds-roll done separately).
• To sum up: the fall of Moscow from turns 30-55 in the game initiates three separate rolls for effects: 1) sudden-death; 2) pestilence; 3) shock penalty.

3.4 EEV Level of 100 Causing Soviet Shock & Pestilence
• If the EEV level reaches 100 Soviet forces will suffer 90% shock for 5-15 turns variable; Soviet forces will also suffer 4% pestilence for 5-15 turns variable. Both items are implemented separately.




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RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri - 11/29/2007 12:10:59 AM   
Fungwu

 

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For soviet production system:

I don't know how accurate the current production model of FITE is. For instance in real life the soviets had to evacuate Kiev, Kharkov, Odessa, Zarporzhze, Dneprovotsk, Stalino, Rostov, Voroshilograd, Sevastopol, minsk, Smolensk, Bryansk, Orel, Kransnodar, Maykop, and  Vorozneh

Leningrad and Stalingrad were not captured, but were pretty much anhilated as cities.
That is 13 5% cities and 4 10% cities either captured or devasted. Maybe someone can do the math and figure out in game terms how low that would take soviet production, but I think it would probably be devasting. Yet in real life, even with all the losses they managed to produce a ton of men, tanks, planes, etc.

The reason is the factories of all those cities were not in them when they were captured, so overall production capacity was delayed, but not destroyed. I think in FITE it should be that every appropriate city has a factory unit in it that stays in garrison status until turn 8 or 10. After turn 8 it is activated and can be carried by railroad beyond the urals. If the germans get to the city before turn 8, the factory can be destroyed and soviet production goes down correspondly. If the germans capture the city after the factory leaves then soviet production goes down 5% or whatever, but when the soviets gear up their economy in dec 41 and in 42 then the production goes up to the same number it would have whether the city was captured or not.

So for example: If Kiev is captured on turn 7 then its factory is destroyed and soviet production goes down 5%. When Dec. 1941 comes around soviet production goes up 285% instead of 300%.
If kiev holds out, and the soviet player can evacuate his factories, then when it is captured production goes down 5%, but when dec 1941 comes around production goes up 300%.

This way soviet player has to stay forward to defend his factories, but doesn't have such a stiff penalty for losing cities that were lost historically.




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RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri - 11/29/2007 12:37:42 AM   
SMK-at-work

 

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Tehre seems to be little detailed information in English about the evacuation of hte factories - 1 snippet I found at http://rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.com/weapons/afv_production.htm is the monthly production of tanks at various plants, including Factory 183 which was evacuated from Kharkov to the Urals in late 41, with essentially the loss of 3 months production.

The tank factories at Lenningrad were actually evacuated - even tho the city never fell, while famously the tank plant at Stalingrad was not, and so  it's produciton just disappears in late 1942!

the trouble with historical factory evacuation is that the German is not forced to conduct a historical campaign - eg IMO it is trivially easy for the Germans to capture Dneprpetrovsk and Kiev before the historical dates if they want to - so ideally the Soviet player would be able to divert resources to prioritise the evacuation of threatened cities.

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RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri - 11/29/2007 1:27:30 AM   
Fungwu

 

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"the trouble with historical factory evacuation is that the German is not forced to conduct a historical campaign - eg IMO it is trivially easy for the Germans to capture Dneprpetrovsk and Kiev before the historical dates if they want to - so ideally the Soviet player would be able to divert resources to prioritise the evacuation of threatened cities."

Well it doesn't have to be 100% historical, just tweak the scenario and put a big enough penalty for an early fall that the Soviet player has to defend those cities with everything he's got. Maybe you could compensate by putting in some shock or supply event that would slow down a german advance.



http://rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.com/weapons/afv_production.htm
That is an interesting site. I think this graph proves the point I was trying to make. You can see T34 production in July when the soviets had only lost Minsk compared to November when the soviets had lost Minsk, Odessa, Kiev, Kharkov, Zarhpozhe, Dneprovotsk, Bryansk, Orel, Smolensk, Stalino, Kalinin, Rostov, and Sevastopol and Leningrad were surrounded.

In july t34 production was 302 in november 253 or about 85% So the loss of 10 5% cities and the loss or encirclement of 3 10% cities only affected T34 production 15%, and within a month there is no more decrease. You can see in october where T34 production went to 185, which is still more than 50% of what was made in July. So I think that taking production cities in FITE should definately not have such a big effect on production that they do now. Only causing a temporary dip like you see in october.

EDIT: The graph didn't quite make it.
(1941)July Aug Sept Oct Nov Dec
T34: 302 421 398 185 253 327

< Message edited by Fungwu -- 11/29/2007 1:31:34 AM >

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RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri - 11/29/2007 1:58:54 AM   
SMK-at-work

 

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the oinly T34 plant affected in that time frame was Kharkov - which was being evacuated - all those other cities did not produce any T34's - therewere surprisingly few factories that did - the msot at aony one time was in 1942 before Stalingrad with 6 - after the STZ plant at Stalingrad was reduced to rubble there were only 5 - but 3 new plants replaced that, and the 183 from Kharkov had almsot tripled its production by then too.

so in fact T34 production didn't suffer AT ALL from city capture in 1941 - only from factory evacuation of the Kharkov plant.

Unfortunately TOAW can't do this via the replacement system - it can only change replacements globally - ie all or none, not individual line items.

IIRC it's on the wish list though!

the DNO scenario has some tricky stuff with reinforcement units to cover this that I used to understand, but it's been a while since I looked at it so I don't really recall how it works.

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RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri - 11/29/2007 2:16:28 AM   
Fungwu

 

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"Unfortunately TOAW can't do this via the replacement system - it can only change replacements globally - ie all or none, not individual line items."

Sure you can.
Step 1: set t34 production rate to 0.
Step 2: Every 4 months (or whatever) have a unit appear in the correct factory with that factory's production of tanks over those 4 months. Then the player disbands the unit putting the tanks into his pool. (note: you would have to subtract the tanks that already appear in units from the factory's production) If the factory's location is overrun, then obviosly the unit won't appear and production will have been stopped.


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RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri - 11/29/2007 2:24:56 AM   
SMK-at-work

 

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Which is what DNO does more or less...trouble is you can't do this for everythign that needs it or you run out of units in a big game like FITE....the 2000 unit limit comes very, very quickly - the Sov's are at it already hence they don't get to break down units at all.

< Message edited by SMK-at-work -- 11/29/2007 2:28:43 AM >

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RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri - 11/29/2007 2:28:13 AM   
Fungwu

 

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Get rid of all those crappy Russian military police units. That is like 30 units right there.

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RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri - 11/29/2007 2:54:53 AM   
desert


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quote:

Step 2: Every 4 months (or whatever) have a unit appear in the correct factory with that factory's production of tanks over those 4 months. Then the player disbands the unit putting the tanks into his pool. (note: you would have to subtract the tanks that already appear in units from the factory's production) If the factory's location is overrun, then obviosly the unit won't appear and production will have been stopped.


Did you get this from our PBEM?

_____________________________

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RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri - 11/29/2007 3:13:46 AM   
SMK-at-work

 

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There's a lot of "ants" that could arguably be removed.....but what are you going to take off the Axis to keep the game balanced?

IIRC 30 units wouldn't be enough anyway.....to do accurate production you should be getting a "production unit" for every city every turn.......I don't know off hand how many cities that would be but you've got 8 listed above & I can think of Moscow, Kalin, Gorki, Astrakhan, Stalingrad, Saratov (?), Murmansk/Archangelsk off the top of my head....so that's 15 - times how many moves? 400?  that's 6000 units you need.......

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RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri - 11/29/2007 3:16:51 AM   
Fungwu

 

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"Did you get this from our PBEM? "

NO! I thought it up all by myself, I swear it!

Hey wait, a minute shouldn't you be working on your turn instead of posting gossip in the forums !?


Well I think I am getting off track here.

My point was the Soviets lost a whole bunch of production cities in real life, and their production was still huge, because it wasn't the cities that did the producing, it was the factories, and the factories were mostly evacuated. So I would think Soviet production should not be tied to what cities they hold, excepting maybe some of the big cities that they historically did not lose, Baku, Moscow, Gorky, etc.




< Message edited by Fungwu -- 11/29/2007 3:18:40 AM >

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RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri - 11/29/2007 3:34:06 AM   
SMK-at-work

 

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Russian manpower was tied to cities tho - and the areas around them.  In one of Glantz's books he notes that the Red Army press-ganged remaining males in areas they liberated from Axis control - sometimes literally just shoving a rifle in their hands and marching them to the front.

also there was at least some industry in cities that didnt' have big tank or artillery factories.  info on artillery and aircraft factories seems to be very scarce, but I guess small arms can probably be made almost anywhere.  Truck production is on the RKKA site too, but unfortunately not in so much detail as tank production.

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RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri - 11/29/2007 3:41:28 AM   
desert


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Yeah...

Well, the PBEM is making my mouse act screwy for some reason, so it might take a little while, sahib.

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RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri - 11/29/2007 4:46:57 AM   
Fungwu

 

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"IIRC 30 units wouldn't be enough anyway.....to do accurate production you should be getting a "production unit" for every city every turn.......I don't know off hand how many cities that would be but you've got 8 listed above & I can think of Moscow, Kalin, Gorki, Astrakhan, Stalingrad, Saratov (?), Murmansk/Archangelsk off the top of my head....so that's 15 - times how many moves? 400?  that's 6000 units you need......."

Okay well I guess I don't really think we need production units after all, I just wanted a way to decouple production from the current production cities. But if someone was interested in this idea here is how it could work.

First of all why would you need one unit every turn? The turns are half week.  I don't think we need to model every 3 and 1/2 days of production. I think once every four months would be plenty. Start with a big pool to cover the first four months, just as thats running dry another production run of weapons comes up. A big portion of weapons already come in as part of units, so tanks in tank brigades etc. Your production is only for your on hand pool, so a big batch every 4 months should keep you supplied, unless you are really getting hammered.

2nd. You need one unit to represent Siberian production, which as I understand it was the majority of Russian production. So one unit every 4 months, equals 12 units to do all siberian production. Right now taking Minsk, or Odessa, or whatever drops the rate tank production, when really a whole bunch of cities fell and tank production only went up and up. So by having all your tanks enter either in their historical units, or in one big unit in Siberia that can be disbanded into the ready pool you can achieve historical tank production even after losing cities that affect general replacements.

Next you would have to model cities that produced tanks and could be captured by Germans.
Looking at the website you gave me there are only 2 major cities, Stalingrad and Gorky.

For stalingrad give one unit modelling all 1941 production apearing at the end of 1941. It shouldn't fall before then so no need to divy it up. Then give it one unit every 4 months until the historical capture. That way if the germans capture Stalingrad earlier than they did the soviets get a hit to tank production because their production unit doesn't show up. Since Stalingrad tank factories were destroyed at the end of 1942, a capture after that won't affect overall tank production.
So that is 4 units for Stalingrad production. 1 for 1941, and 3 for 1942.

The other city is Gorky. Start with one unit covering the first 12 months Since Gorky shouldn't fall till then. Then have a unit every 6 months since if Gorky falls Soviets are screwed anyway, so not a real need to model its tank production too closely. So for gorky 7 units.

THat is 12 units for Siberia, 4 for Stalingrad, 7 for Gorky. This models all tank production for the war. 23 units. That still leaves you with about half of the NKVD MP units.  Siberian production units could also model all plane, artillery, etc production that wouldn't be effected by taking the current production cities. The only other units you would need would be if there was some city on the map that wasn't captured, or like Stalingrad wasn't destroyed until later in the war and had a big production of planes or artillery or something.

To rexplain the point of all this, Right now you can lose a bunch of replacement cities and your tank production plummets, but in real life all those cities were lost and tank production skyrocketed. Using these 23 production units could lose those cities and have an effect on manpower, like rifle squads, but tank production would be seperate and kept historical.

For the few cities that the germans could actually capture (IE not in Siberia) you could model the tank losses losing those cities (Gorky and Stalingrad) would result in, or in the case of Stalingrad, the result of an early capture. As I outlined above all this would take 23 units.


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RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri - 11/29/2007 5:08:24 AM   
SMK-at-work

 

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Kharkov and Leningrad too if the Germans get to them early - both were evacuated, but they might not have been quick enough in an alternate history.

4 months is terribly granular - tanks (or anything else) didn't arrive in big batches every 4 months - they arrived more or less as they were built.  With 4-monthly production you'll get all units getting a rush of replacements 3 times a year and then slowly weakening as they lose equipment with less replacement...that's not how it happened (at least AFAIK)

I'd say monthly would be as granular as I'd ever like to see, but ideally as often as possible. For lend lease we could even plot the actual arrival dates of convoys for Murmansk..and have them arrive a turn or 2 later at Archanglensk if Murmansk is taken.

You're right about Siberia being able to be represented by a single production point/unit, but none of the cities I mentioned were actually in Siberia, and as I said there were factories producing all sorts of things all across the map. There might not have been any tank factories in Moscow, but there were certainly aircraft factories, and they have the same kind of characteristics - they can be captured or evacuated.

And as a complete aside from production issues...IMO Turkey should just be removed from the game altogether...it was never going to enter the war on the Axis side, despite having tolerably friendly relationship with them for the first half of it.

< Message edited by SMK-at-work -- 11/29/2007 5:17:20 AM >

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RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri - 11/29/2007 5:39:41 AM   
Fungwu

 

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"Kharkov and Leinigrad too if hte Germans get to them early - both were evacuated, but they might not have ben quick enough in an alternate history."

Okay, just create a unit for each city, but put the unit behind the Urals. The unit is 0/1000 t34s (well really it would be 0/whatever tank production for those factories was). House rules state that if Kharkov or Leningrad is captured before the date their factories where evacuated then these units cannot be disbanded. If the Either city holds out long enough, then the corresponding unit can be disbanded. If the unit is not disbanded, when you put t34s into your pool these units out in the middle of nowhere will eat up a certain amount equal to the amount of lost tank production.

Now we are up to 25 units.

"4 months is terribly granular - tanks didn't arrive in big batches every 4 months - they arrived more or less as they were built.  with 4-monthly production you'll get all units getting a rush of replacements 3 times a year and then slowly weakening as they lose equipment with less replacement...that's not how it happened (at least AFAIK)"

First of all you still get a steady stream of tank units, so only a portion of your reinforcements are affected.

2nd, as I understand it reinforcements are given to units at a rate of 2% of your on hand stockpile. So for instance, in 1942 total tank production was 24000, so, getting a batch every third of a year you would get a batch of 8000. First wave of replacements is 2% of this so 160. Next turn you get 2% of the remainder which would be 156. Next turn is 154. So it is not all at once.

Also maybe tanks don't arrive all out once, but what about tankers? Maybe tank school lasts 4 months, all the new tanks get new crews, then the next class starts? (Okay okay so the Russians didn't actually train their tankers, its just a thought)

You could seperate the arrival of tank units. So for instance in 1942 you have 3 from siberia 3 from stalingrad and 2 from Gorky. So that is 8 to spread over 12 months, so new tanks every month and a half.

Finally Russian 1942 tank  production is  24000, are players really going to eat through 230 tanks a turn?

"You're right about Siberia being able to be represented by a single production point/unit, but none of the cities I mentioned were actually in Siberia, and as I said there were factories producing all sorts of things all across the map - there might not have been any tank factories in Moscow, but there were certainly aircraft factories, and they have the same kind of characteristics - they can be captured or evacuated." 

Well you just need to model the cities that could be captured before industry could be evacuated. If you lose Moscow you already lose all the units that appear in Moscow hexes. Any aircraft industry in Moscow could presumbably be evacuated, and you already get a 20% production hit for losing moscow, so it is not like there is no penalty. I would say just assume Moscow production would be moved to Gorky in event of capture, and thus just add Moscow figures to the units already being made in Gorky.

As to other cities, we have already modelled all tank production with 25 units. If it would not take another 25 to model all aircraft production, since Urals(I don't know why I keep typing Siberia, gulags were there, not many factories) units can include both planes and tanks (and guns and whatever)

To model a city that produced aircraft and could be captured early you need just one unit like the ones I mentioned for Kharkov and Leningrad (an empty unit with alot of space that sucks in replacements equal to the lost production).

To model a city that lasted a little longer, like Stalingrad was never captured like Gorky, you only need maybe a half dozen units.

(in reply to SMK-at-work)
Post #: 81
RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri - 11/29/2007 5:57:18 AM   
Zort

 

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While I was working on mod 7, I discussed a lot of the above with SMK.
1. To use the EEV like the DNO scenario I would need a lot of events, have about 400 left in current scenario. I think DNO uses most of its events to do this and the factories.
2. To use the units to disband like in DNO I figured I needed around 120 soviet units and that was doing units monthly. I was going to use counters for inf replacements like DNO but couldn't find enough empty slots with the counter limit. (don't have my notes any more seems the dog ate them!!)
3. I wanted to give the soviet player the option of moving the factories, ie like DNO but again more units, more events and I couldn't get it to work for the length of FITE. If I remember correctly in DNO once the factories were moved the soviets didn't get the factories back because the game ended before they came back online.
4. Based on the numbers that SMK has given me I ran them against the numbers that FITE has for soviet replacements and they are almost the same as the historical numbers. The original designers had the numbers right, as long as the german took the same number of cities for the same percentage as was done historically.
5. Soviet air forces, maybe one solution is what they have in other games, start the replacements at 0.

We have discussed the soviet strategy of forward defense before. Why should the soviets to it when they don't have to.

In theroy the soviets should be able to stop the germans in the winter. Supply should be a big factor but it isn't. Shock seems to be more of a factor to slow assaults down.

If you get rid of the soviet mp units do you replace them with units that aren't represented in the current OOB or allow the soviets to be able to breakdown some units.

Based on what has been said above and what I attempted to do, there is no need for the production model in the game, just bring in units to dispand them.



< Message edited by Zort -- 11/29/2007 5:58:44 AM >

(in reply to SMK-at-work)
Post #: 82
RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri - 11/29/2007 8:46:26 AM   
sPzAbt653


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What's the date of T320?

July 13th, 1944

Karri has had to make due with rail capacity 6000 since turn 16.

It goes back to 12,000, as soon as he recaptures Moscow!

I don't know how karri got so many planes

There are 8 different types of Soviet planes that recieve 150 or more replacements each turn, some as many as 400. That's 800 a week just for I-16's! (the I-16 production does stop at turn 50). I've noticed in the latter turns I usually get about 200-300 Soviet planes destroyed per turn, even that many doesn't make a dent.

For stalingrad give one unit modelling all 1941 production apearing at the end of 1941. It shouldn't fall before then so no need to divy it up.

The productiion ideas are very good so don't take this comment wrong. The problem I see is that you can come with a very good way to do it for most situations, but the same idea fails in other situations. For example, how many specific models of production or supply would take into account the fall of Moscow prior to turn 17? And once you model that, someone can come up with another. Another example is that I decided one day that I would do the same thing being talked about here, but only for Soviet trucks, based on production and Lend-Lease. This seemed important enough for me to make the effort, as Soviet mobility increased as the war progressed and the flat truck production rate in the scenario didn't deal with this specifically. It seemed pretty easy to do but as I put my silly brain to it and started trying to think of all the 'what ifs' that would have to be built in, I came to the conclusion that it was pretty impossible and that really the way it is, is good enough. Also, I haven't looked at DNO's event list to see how the complex EEV system was done, but just reading about it here I can assume that it took alot of events to do it.


...but in real life all those cities were lost and tank production skyrocketed.

Soviet production goes up 300% during the scenario. Good grief, 275 Yak-9's a turn x300% .... omg! ...1,650 per week! No wonder the Luftwaffe had some aces with over 300 victories! With that many planes, the Soviets must have been flying into each other!

I haven't done any EEV work myself, but maybe it could be done fairly simply by making one grid that increases it by some for each major Soviet production area taken by the Axis, and lowered some as the scenario progresses (time vs. rate of advance). The goal being to model a more than historic advance by the Germans triggering some production loss or some lower Soviet shock (sorry Soviet players). If that worked, the same could be done in the reverse for the later part of the scenario. Using a current AAR as an example, Josh's amazing capture of Moscow on turn 16 wouldn't specifically trigger the EEV effects, as the whole of the south was untouched, offsetting the brilliant advance. However, the loss of Moscow and Leningrad, that might trigger something.


(in reply to SMK-at-work)
Post #: 83
RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri - 11/29/2007 6:21:09 PM   
Fungwu

 

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"There are 8 different types of Soviet planes that recieve 150 or more replacements each turn, some as many as 400. That's 800 a week just for I-16's! (the I-16 production does stop at turn 50). I've noticed in the latter turns I usually get about 200-300 Soviet planes destroyed per turn, even that many doesn't make a dent. "

Well someone suggested that I do a better job destroying the soviet planes in the first few turns, so I went and systematically mapped every soviet airfield, and the number of planes there. Looks like the germans could potentially disable 7351 soviet planes located in 44 airfields in the first few turns. Next game of FITE I will have to try that.

"For example, how many specific models of production or supply would take into account the fall of Moscow prior to turn 17? And once you model that, someone can come up with another. Another example is that I decided one day that I would do the same thing being talked about here, but only for Soviet trucks, based on production and Lend-Lease"

Well I don't know if it would work but you could use my idea of creating an empty unit representing each factory you had in mind. If the city is captured at some early date the unit stays and, being empty, sucks up replacements equal to the factories production. If the factory falls at a late enough date that it is deemed evacuated, then you disband the unit. So in that case you would need just one unit for each factory that could be concievably captured early.

Another idea is to use a physical unit to represent the factory itself. This is done in DNO, but it uses alot of events, and when production falls from destroying a factory it is production of everything. Maybe you could have a rail bound units representing the factory and its workers in each appropriate city. Honor rules dictate when the factory is eligible to be moved to the Urals. If the factory successfully evacuates then everything goes on as normal. If it is destroyed then the soviet player is penalized in the following way:

Lets says Germans destroy Kharkov tank factory. Looking at production data we determine Kharkov tank factory = 15% of soviet tank production. Well when the soviet tank production units appear in the Urals waiting to be disbanded into the ready pool the soviet player has to wait 15% longer. So if he gets 3 tank units a year, that is one every 34 turns. IF he loses Kharkov factory then he still gets a tank unit every 34 turns but he must wait 5 turns (15% of 34) before he can disband it and enter the tanks into his ready pool. Since production rate is time vs number of units, and we just made time go up, then production rate has now fallen 15%.

This would take one unit for each city with a factory. So probably 20 or less.

To remind the player you could do something like this: In the Urals region have a hex lablled Kharkov factory 5 hexes distant from the entry point for soviet tank production. Give the production unit some heavy equipment so they have movment 1. If Kharkov factory has been evacauted, and is sitting in its labelled hex then the production unit can be disbanded immediately. If not it must travel into the empty hex before disbanding. Since its movement is 1, and the hex is 5 distant, then the unit disbands 5 turns later than it would, and since the next unit also disbands 5 turns later, and the next, overall tanks at the front drop 15%.

(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 84
RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri - 11/29/2007 7:09:15 PM   
Fungwu

 

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Alright, here is another version of the production idea I outlined above. Split soviet production up amongst 1. Artillery, AT, and AA guns 2. Tanks and self propelled guns 3. Aircraft

Every 4 months the soviet player gets one unit for each of these cagetogories appearing in the urals. The unit contains an ammount of equipment equal to the historical production for that time period.

The first unit appears 2 months into the game. Each unit has a movment of one. (yes it is possible to make a unit with air equipment and ground movement that can be disbanded) The production rate of all this equipment in the replacement editor is 0. To get his historical production the soviet player must disband these units entering their equipment into his ready pool.

3 categories of equipment, one unit every 4 months = 36 units. (Bye bye NKVD MP units)

So first we have made a model of historical production, now we model factories and factory evacuation.

To do that create a factory unit unit in each town with such a factory. Label them according to what they made, eg. tank factory, aircraft factory etc. These factory units have movement one, and thus can only be evacuated by rail. This would take about 10-20 units. (take out a few AA regiments)

Up in the urals we are going to use hexes to make sort of production chart like in old boardgames. We are going to use units as counters on that chart. By using this chart we can determine the loss of production based on the loss and evacuation of factories.

Basically it looks like this: At one end of the chart is the hex where the production unit appears. The middle of the chart contains some open hexes and some hexes labelled "factory" The soviet player must fill the hexes labelled "factory" starting at the opposite end of the hex row from the hex where the production unit appears. When his production unit enters once every for months, the soviet player can not disband it if the nearest hex to the right labelled "factory" is empty.

So if the soviet player has all the factory hexes filled then he can disband the production unit immediately. If he saved only 3 out of 4 factories, then the production unit must plod  1 hex at a time through the open hexes to the first factory hex to the right before it can disband. If 2 factories are gone he must plod further to the right before he can disband, and so on.

Production rate = time vs amount of equipment  We keep the amount of equipment the same no matter what, but with fewer factories the soviet player must take longer to disband his units and thus production rate falls.

Here is a chart, P labels the hex where the production unit appears. "o" is an open hex "F" is a hex labelled factory with a factory unit in it. "X" is a hex labelled factory that is empty. "!" is a hex side. Please don't make fun of me for my lame chart.

!P!o!o!o!o!F!o!o!o!o!F!o!o!o!o!F!o!o!o!o!F!

This is ideally what the soviet players hexes will look like. Every factory hex has a big F indicating he has saved his factories and placed them in those hexes. Since all factory hexes are filled he can disband his production unit immediately after it arrives dumping the equipment into his pool.

!P!o!o!o!o!X!o!o!o!o!F!o!o!o!o!F!o!o!o!o!F!

This is what it would look like if the german player destroyed a factory before the soviet player could evacuate it. Since the soviet player cannot disband his production unit until all the hexes labelled factory to his right is occupied by a factory he must now move his production unit to the space labelled "X" With a movement of 1, and 4 open spaces between him and the empty space this will take 5 turns. Soviet player gets a production unit every 34 turns, but with a factory missing he can only enter those units into his pool every 39 turns, this represents a production loss of 15% from losing a factory. You can adjust the percent loss from each factory by changing the distance inbetween the hexes labelled "factory"

The interesting thing about this method is you can also model the dip in production between evacuating factories and restablishing them. When the game starts all the hexes labelled factory in the urals will be empty since the actual factories are in their corresponding cities. In their place put a place holder unit (it can be an AA unit, whatever) that appears in the hexes labelled factory up in the Urals. If a factory leaves its home town, the placeholder unit is disbanded.

So for instance looking down the line of hexes representing tank factories in the Urals they begin the game all occupied with placeholder units. Thus when the 1st soviet production unit appears it can be disbanded immediately as all the hexes are occupied.

Lets say the Soviet player evacuates his tank factory in Kharkov. He immediately disbands the corresponding placeholder unit in the urals. Now when his production unit appears he must now wait a couple of turns as a factory hex is now empty. If the factory is destroyed enroute then the hex remains permamently empty and tank production is slowed correspondingly. If the Kharkov factory makes it to the Urals and occupies the appropriate hex the production resumes at its normal pace.

Using this system the Soviet player would get a dangerous dip in tank production if all his factories evacuated at once, but steady production if they never left their original cities.










(in reply to Fungwu)
Post #: 85
RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri - 11/29/2007 7:17:34 PM   
Fungwu

 

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The point of all this being, right now if you lose Odessa, or Minsk, or Bryansk or sevastopol, you tank production falls a certain amount. But none of those cities had tank factories so why would tank production be affected? Similarily if lose Kharkov which had a tank factory tank production goes down by 10%. But in real life Kharkov was taken and tank production was not affected because the factory was evacauted.

Using the system I outlined above you could take Odessa, and minsk and bryansk and suffer a 5% loss in your manpower, but your tank production would be unaffected. If lose Kharkov and manage to evacuate your tank factory production will go down while it is being relocated, but go back up once it is restablished in the urals. If you lose Kharkov too early and your tank factory is destroyed you will lose a corresponding amount of tank production permanently. And of course you can do this for aircraft and artillery production for a total of about 50 units.

(in reply to Fungwu)
Post #: 86
RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri - 11/29/2007 8:20:53 PM   
Zort

 

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So from what I read above, you are basically doing away with the production portion of the game and utilizing disbandable units. With personnel being the only item covered by the production model. So why not go one more step and do the same with personnel. Not every captured city should be a 5% decrease in personnel. DNO does a decent job of where the personnel show up. And when the soviets retake the hex the units will reappear as they liberate more people.

Looks like a decent idea, a lot of manual intervention by the player. Optimally the game system should take care of the management you are recommending.

Fungwu are you going to work on a mod to do you recommended changes?

(in reply to Fungwu)
Post #: 87
RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri - 11/29/2007 9:01:45 PM   
Karri

 

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I like how it's working currently. I'm more into gameplay than history, and that's why a simple 5% penalty if Germans say capture Kiev too early would be fine with me. So what if there weren't tank factories, doesn't really matter to me. I'm sure that Swede joining axis would not increase tank production either...

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Post #: 88
RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri - 11/29/2007 10:17:12 PM   
sPzAbt653


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Looks like the germans could potentially disable 7351 soviet planes located in 44 airfields in the first few turns.

Holy moly, I didn't know that! I knocked out 2,885 once and thought I did good, apparently not! Some of the airfields are out of German range, aren't they?

...a lot of manual intervention by the player.

Just my preference, but when I open a new scenario and see a lot of scenario specific guidelines/instructions/house rules, I close it and move on to something else. I couldn't even concentrate long enough to read all the above descriptions! I'm with Karri, let's just play a game! But the 'Fugwu Fite Production Mod' would certainly be interesting to see.

You can eliminate about 15 Soviet partisan units to get more units, and eliminate German security and mp units to compensate. This also increases playablity (um, in my opinion). However, some players love partisans, and others love Nkvd ants, and still others love to run a production war!

(in reply to Fungwu)
Post #: 89
RE: FITE Fungwu vs Karri - 11/29/2007 10:46:55 PM   
SMK-at-work

 

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quote:

Soviet production goes up 300% during the scenario. Good grief, 275 Yak-9's a turn x300% .... omg! ...1,650 per week! No wonder the Luftwaffe had some aces with over 300 victories! With that many planes, the Soviets must have been flying into each other!


Is it truly so high???

I haven't really looked at the numbers but that that would be far too many - Wiki says about 16,700 Yak-9's were built to 1948....there are production figures around for most Soviet a/c so I'll do some math for this weekend.......Zort already changed the LaGG-3 to "realistic" figures at my bidding a few months ago.

Ditto for tanks (thanks to RKKA) and artillery (there's generic figfures on RKKA IIRC)

Edit: fungwe that's a very clever idea for production. I have 2 concerns...

1/ It only inflicts a 5 turn produciton losss if factories are lost - ie if the production unit has to move to the 2nd factory hex that's 5 more turns....but the next unit arriving 34 turns later will get to the produciton hex 34 turns after the 1st one did - sure it will be 5 turns later than it would be otherwise, but the full produciton will still be arriving every 34 turns...albeit 5 turns later than it would be otherwise - so effectively only 5 turns production is lost.

IMO the effect of factory losss should be lost production of that factory forever, not just 5 turns - so if you had 4 factories and lost 1 then you should get only 75% production.

2/ The production delay for moving factories is not long enough.

Looking at Factory 183 T34 Production figures from RKKA, production tailed off at Kharkov to 41 in October 41, then stopped altogether in November, and 25 from Nizhniy Tagil in December, 75 in January 42, 140 in Feb, 225 in March (more or less 100% pre shift production) - so From October to February it got about 1.25 months prodution at pre-shift level - ie it lost 3.75 months production - about 2/3rds the possible total.

< Message edited by SMK-at-work -- 11/29/2007 11:00:38 PM >

(in reply to sPzAbt653)
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