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RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 12/18/2007 3:14:32 PM

ny59giants

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Any possibility the US Marine Division can respawn like Chinese LCU's?? Occasionally, they are lost early in the war and I would think they would have reconstituted them if it happened.

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Post #: 301

RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 12/18/2007 3:42:06 PM

Andy Mac

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No nor do I think they should if they are able to rebuild to that extent we have the replacement rates for devices wrong.

Andy

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Post #: 302

RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 12/18/2007 4:09:27 PM

Andy Mac

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OK will adjust 49th - 3 Coys on PM and 1 Coy on Thursday Island

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Post #: 303

RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 12/18/2007 5:24:57 PM

Don Bowen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

OK will adjust 49th - 3 Coys on PM and 1 Coy on Thursday Island

Andy

As much as I enjoyed wallowing in history on the forum - I would leave the entire 49th at Port Moresby. A Coy/49th was detached from the Battalion soon after war began and renamed Torres Strait Infantry Detachment. With the arrival of 14th Garrison Battalion in mid-1942, Torres Strait Infantry Detachment was withdrawn to Brisbane and disbanded.

A new A Company was formed for the 49th Bn at Port Moresby.

I'd just put 49th Bn at Port Moresby, but starting about a company short. A/49th could be done as a separate company with a withdrawal date or just folded into the garrison at Thursday Island.

Note the Torres Strait Infanry Detachment is a different unit than Torres Strait Light Infantry. This unit, formed from local islanders, was a company when war began and expanded to a battalion during the war.

Also, for a little more historical wallowing, A Coy/49th at Thursday Island was (+), having sections attached from 49th Bn HQ.

Don

< Message edited by Don Bowen -- 12/18/2007 5:25:32 PM >

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Post #: 304

RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 12/18/2007 5:30:23 PM

Andy Mac

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Pretty much finalising Aussie build tonight so if anyone has any specifics they want in speak now or promise not to whinge (to much) when we release....

Features of the Aussie Build

1st Aus Corps - arrives Aden and needs to be shipped home except Blackforce that arrives Java all done at Divisional scale except the Pioneer Bns and AA Regts
We have LH Bdes (Motor and Cav some upgrade some dont)
Independent LH Bns in various guises
Armoured Regts some with tanks some needing them all under strength
Militia Divs some broken down to Bdes some not
Some independent Bdes some split to Bns some not
Ind Commando Coy's that later form Bn sized Cavalry Coy's
New HQ's Northern Command, Western COmmand (later named III Corps these are small and static), II Corps
Small at start 'forces' Wren, Ocean and the other one I cannot remember
RAAF Engineering/Construction Sqns
Aviation Wings including 1st Fighter Wing and other RAAF ground units
TOE upgrades for all Divs to move to different TOE's as they lightened for jungle work.
Australian Paratroopers are in.
Seperate devices for Aus Militia that upgrade to regular Australian Regular Squads over time.

And much much more as I say above if there is somethign you think is a must include let me know and let me know a source in the next 24 hours and I will consider it !!!!

Andy

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Post #: 305

RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 12/18/2007 5:31:28 PM

Andy Mac

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Thanks Don I will pull it all together over night and finalise the Aussie build !!!

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Post #: 306

RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 12/18/2007 8:15:48 PM

Andy Mac

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Does anyone have any data on the Dutch Mariniers Bde training in the USA at the wars end its another late 455 unit so might not make the cut (I have about 24 hours for final tweaking)

If anyone can provide data I may include it if not it will probably get set to a US Marine Regt TOE with some Dutch 45 Marine squads (which will coincidentally be the same as 44 USMC squads in all respects except name and nationality)

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Post #: 307

RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 12/18/2007 10:23:10 PM

witpqs

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

No nor do I think they should if they are able to rebuild to that extent we have the replacement rates for devices wrong.

Andy

The way to handle this problem is to have units regenerate as empty shells - just a commander - and let the devices fill in as replacements. This would allow the player/supreme commander to make the decisions regarding having the formation rebuild (eventually) or turning off replacements to avoid starving other formations.

The Chinese units and whatever other units that respawn currently might be exceptions for whatever reasons (I don't know), resulting in their special rules. Just a thought.

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Post #: 308

RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 12/18/2007 10:33:05 PM

Andy Mac

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Interesting idea but it will need to be on the patch list.

As it happens we do have something similar in now for disbanded units.

If you manually disband a unit at one of the key bases then you get the option for it to return as an admin shell with 10 support squads only in 6 months (all devices are stripped from it and become redeployable accross other units)

So a similar type of coding exists if I accept the premise which I am not sure I do - to late for the release as it would be a code change but certainly put it on the list for the patch. (the only unit that was totally rebuilt after it was destroyed that I am aware of was 51st Highland Div - typically if a cadre did not escape a unit was not reformed so I am not sure I agree it should be allowed especially with the ability of the Japanese to manufacture squads (it would have to be 2 way which would concern me)

I will put it on my little list of things to think about at patch time

Andy

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Post #: 309

RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 12/19/2007 12:19:11 AM

JeffroK

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Pretty much finalising Aussie build tonight so if anyone has any specifics they want in speak now or promise not to whinge (to much) when we release....

Features of the Aussie Build

1st Aus Corps - arrives Aden and needs to be shipped home except Blackforce that arrives Java all done at Divisional scale except the Pioneer Bns and AA Regts Blackforce was just a loose conglomeration of Corps troops. plus part of 8 Hussars, IMHO, the Bn sized units should arrive seperate, for use by the player as they see fit.We have LH Bdes (Motor and Cav some upgrade some dont) There are no LH Bdes in the Australian Army, Only Cavalry or Motor, unlike the NZ Home forces which have Mounted Infantry BdesIndependent LH Bns in various guises
Armoured Regts some with tanks some needing them all under strength
Militia Divs some broken down to Bdes some not
Some independent Bdes some�split to Bns some not
Ind Commando Coy's that later form Bn sized Cavalry Coy's Hard to map this, some Independent Companys and some Div Cav Rgts became Cav/Cdo Rgts then Cdo RgtsNew HQ's Northern Command, Western COmmand (later named III Corps these are small and static), II Corps
Small at start 'forces'�Wren, Ocean and the other one I cannot remember
RAAF Engineering/Construction Sqns
Aviation Wings including 1st Fighter Wing and other RAAF ground units
TOE upgrades for all Divs to move to different TOE's as they lightened for jungle work.
Australian Paratroopers are in. A lot of work for 1 bn,
Seperate devices for Aus Militia that upgrade to regular Australian Regular Squads over time.

And much much more as I say above if there is somethign you think is a must include let me know and let me know a source in the next 24 hours and I will consider it !!!!

Andy

Are you showing 1,2,3 Armoured & 1,2 Motor Divs? At least the ability to form Australian Armd Bdes, you see enough invasions of OZ in AAR to make this needed. They can breakdown to Rgts for use outside of OZ

2/1 NAOU (The Nackeroos) A mounted force that covered the Northern Territory & NW West Aust , something like mounted coastwatchers (2/1 North Australia Observer Unit)

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Post #: 310

RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 12/19/2007 1:00:40 AM

Andy Mac

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The single biggest headache I have in the whole Australian ORBAT is the sodding lighthorsemen - (gits)

They are just so mixed !!!

23 Regts or Bns of mixed motorised, motorised ex horse cavalry, horsed cavalry, recce and MG Bns

Enough to drive you nuts !!!

I ended up ignoring the stock Cav Divs and decided to show them as them as

5 Mixed Bdes and 6 Independent Bns

The Mixed Bdes
1st Motor Bde (motorised light inf Bde with some armour which it loses on formation of the two tank Bdes)
2nd Australian Cav Bde (upgrades to 3rd Army Tank Bde sucking in armour from the other Bdes)
3rd Motor Bde (motorised light inf Bde with some armour which it loses on formation of the two tank Bdes)
4th Australian Cav Bde upgrades to 4th Armoured Bde sucking in armour from the other units
6th Australian Cav Bde (remains a weak mixed inf/lt armoured Bde throughout the war loses heavy regt on formation of the armoured Bdes)

Most of these disband or replace othewr LH units in the Bdes when they disband - defacto they dissapear in mid 43
2nd Recce Bn (ACV-IP's and Marmon Harringtons)
10th Recce Bn (ACV-IP's)
17th MG Bn
19th MG Bn
22nd Motor Bn
25th MG Bn

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Post #: 311

RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 12/19/2007 1:06:03 AM

Andy Mac

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Posts crossed Jeff short answer is I disagree and dont show the AIF as Bn sized forces.

Blackforce is an MG Bn with a few companies of Infantry (i reduced the strength of one of the AIF Divs to reflect this)

See my other post LH are my biggest nightmare they were seriously painfull shows up as 5 Bdes and 6 Bn sized forces and then reduces or converts to 2 Armoured Bdes and 3 Motorised Inf Bdes over time as various LH units are disbanded.

Cav Commandos I ended up using the Independent companies to form them.

Aus Paras took about 5 minutes they were easy ;) its the sodding LH thats taken all the time !!!

You get the AIF Armoured Regts as independent Regts
and then later 3rd and 4th Bde form from the 5 ex LH Bdes

I will add the Nackeroos

Andy

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Pretty much finalising Aussie build tonight so if anyone has any specifics they want in speak now or promise not to whinge (to much) when we release....

Features of the Aussie Build

1st Aus Corps - arrives Aden and needs to be shipped home except Blackforce that arrives Java all done at Divisional scale except the Pioneer Bns and AA Regts Blackforce was just a loose conglomeration of Corps troops. plus part of 8 Hussars, IMHO, the Bn sized units should arrive seperate, for use by the player as they see fit.We have LH Bdes (Motor and Cav some upgrade some dont) There are no LH Bdes in the Australian Army, Only Cavalry or Motor, unlike the NZ Home forces which have Mounted Infantry BdesIndependent LH Bns in various guises
Armoured Regts some with tanks some needing them all under strength
Militia Divs some broken down to Bdes some not
Some independent Bdes some�split to Bns some not
Ind Commando Coy's that later form Bn sized Cavalry Coy's Hard to map this, some Independent Companys and some Div Cav Rgts became Cav/Cdo Rgts then Cdo RgtsNew HQ's Northern Command, Western COmmand (later named III Corps these are small and static), II Corps
Small at start 'forces'�Wren, Ocean and the other one I cannot remember
RAAF Engineering/Construction Sqns
Aviation Wings including 1st Fighter Wing and other RAAF ground units
TOE upgrades for all Divs to move to different TOE's as they lightened for jungle work.
Australian Paratroopers are in. A lot of work for 1 bn,
Seperate devices for Aus Militia that upgrade to regular Australian Regular Squads over time.

And much much more as I say above if there is somethign you think is a must include let me know and let me know a source in the next 24 hours and I will consider it !!!!

Andy

Are you showing 1,2,3 Armoured & 1,2 Motor Divs? At least the ability to form Australian Armd Bdes, you see enough invasions of OZ in AAR to make this needed. They can breakdown to Rgts for use outside of OZ

2/1 NAOU (The Nackeroos) A mounted force that covered the Northern Territory & NW West Aust , something like mounted coastwatchers (2/1 North Australia Observer Unit)

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Post #: 312

RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 12/19/2007 1:17:40 AM

Andy Mac

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p.s. 2nd Aus Cav Bde that becomes 3rd Army Tank Bde disbands in 43 - allies get 1st Army Tank Bn as an independent unit at that point

In Mid 42 the allies have

1st Motor Bde (Lt Inf and A/C Bde)
3rd Motor Bde (Lt Inf and A/C Bde)
3rd Army Tank Bde (Armoured Bde) - disbands mid 43
4th Armoured Bde (Armoured Bde)
6th Aus Cav Bde (Lt Inf and A/C Bde)

Over course of late 42 early 43 the 6 independent LH Bn sized forces disband (de facto some of these moved into the Bdes above and other regts were merged or disbanded)

Andy

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Post #: 313

RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 12/19/2007 1:23:29 AM

Shark7

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Question about the Phillipines and the Allied AI.

Having played the game as the Japanese several times now, I have noticed that the Allied AI will ALWAYS pull all its units back to Bataan starting on 12-8. This leaves aircraft sitting on the field at Clark Field and Manila with no aviation support, thus rendering any of them that survive the initial attack useless in short order.

Are there any plans to alter this behavior? Or at least get the AI to move the planes as well as the support units?

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Post #: 314

RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 12/19/2007 1:29:35 AM

Andy Mac

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AIF 1st Armoured Div is reflected by 108th RAA AT Regt, 2/16th Art Regt 2/5th - 2/10th Armoured Regts and 2/11th Armoured Car Regts

So actually armoured units are not lacking in Australia - tanks now tanks are seriously lacking but thats a different story

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Post #: 315

RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 12/19/2007 1:30:33 AM

Andy Mac

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Shark7 we will try we are not yet looking at the PI AI we need to get a single module woring intyelligently first but I will add it to the list

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Post #: 316

RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 12/19/2007 1:52:17 AM

JeffroK

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

AIF 1st Armoured Div is reflected by 108th RAA AT Regt, 2/16th Art Regt 2/5th - 2/10th Armoured Regts and 2/11th Armoured Car Regts

So actually armoured units�are not lacking in Australia - tanks now tanks are seriously lacking but thats a different story

By late 42 1 & 2 Armd Divs were at the level of the British Armd Divs of the time. 1 Arm & 1 Mot Bde, Recce & Art Support. They should be at this level as a deterrant to the IJA which had nothing to oppose them. 3 Div was a flash in the pan, showing the Bns at best would cover. Tanks were in-country, sufficient to fill out the units if needed, its hard to recreate as the japanese didnt invade.

On 19 Feb on arrival in Java Blackforce was made up of

2/3 MG Bn (Armed with Rifles)
2/2 Pioneer Bn
2/6 Fd Company
Plus Transport and some support units.

A Sqn of 3 Hussars and I/ 131 US Field Art Rgt were attached plus some Brit AA gunners without guns. (from either 6 HAA Rgt or 35 LAA Rgt??)

It was a scratch force, not a serious combat unit, I believe that the units have a very good chance of not going to Java and without that emergency, Blackforce doesnt have a reason to exist.

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Post #: 317

RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 12/19/2007 2:13:42 AM

Andy Mac

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Well by late 42 in the ORBAT as currently set up the Australians will have

1st and 2nd Armoured Bde Groups (at regimental split into 6 tank regts and 1 A/C regts plus an arty regt and AT regt)
1st and 3rd Motor Bde Groups (each Bde Gp includes 2 Inf Bns, 1 MG Bn, a Field Coy, Field Regt, AT Battery and an Armoured Car Sqn)
3rd Army Tank Bde
4th Armoured Bde and
6th Cav Bde Group (similar but not exact TOE to the Motor Bdes)

I think that covers everything tell me whats missing and I will put it in but as I said I think the above covers it all.

Re Blackforce 2/3 MG Bn is the core of the force plus a field company and some other infantry to reflect support troops.
2/2 Pioneer is seperately represented on map
3rd Cav and AA Units are also seperately represented.

Blackforce disbands in September 42 and the TOE of 7th Aus Div is unaffected by the detachments - the actual strength is reduced but not the TOE so it will refill over time. Blackforce is a temporary diverision of force dont want it in Java send it to Australia !!!

Andy

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Post #: 318

RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 12/19/2007 2:17:52 AM

JeffroK

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RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 12/19/2007 2:26:25 AM

Andy Mac

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The above forces replace the stock armoured Bns for Australia, 1st and 2nd Cav Divs and 6th Cav Bde

In total AV I think it works out about the same as stock its just more of it is armour.

It is probably more if you include the 6 independent LH units but these disband or merge into the above from mid 42 - mid 43 roughly 1 per month goes

Andy

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Post #: 320

RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 12/19/2007 2:42:49 AM

Andy Mac

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p.s. 1st Motor Bde Gp and 3rd Army Tank Disband in 43

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Post #: 321

RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 12/19/2007 2:51:56 AM

Andy Mac

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The only question I have left on the whole Aussie ORBAT

4th Aus Cav Bde
6th Aus Cav Bde

At present these two formations end up as 4th Armoured and 6th Cav Bde in late 42 ealry 43

I think 6th Cav Bde should also disband in 43 but am not sure so I have not done so now

That would mean by 44 the Aussies would have

1st and 2nd Armoured Bde (as regts)
4th Armoured Bde
1st Motor Bde Group and

That would mean a reduction from a 1942 strength of 4 Armoured Bdes, 3 Motorised Bdes and 6 Independent Bns to

3 Armoured Bdes, 1 Motorised Bde a reduction of over 50% which is probably right as they combed all forces for infantry

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RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 12/19/2007 2:54:28 AM

Andy Mac

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p.s. guys if my musings on the various ORBATS are boring everyone silly by now pease tell me to shut up and you can all wait and see what its like on release

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RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 12/19/2007 3:47:02 AM

JeffroK

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Andy,

I love it, but would like to see the whole picture, which is probably impossible.

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RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 12/19/2007 5:48:29 AM

Blackhorse

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants
Any possibility the US Marine Division can respawn like Chinese LCU's?? Occasionally, they are lost early in the war and I would think they would have reconstituted them if it happened.�

No. The Marines stretched to the limit to field 6 divisions. The USMC disbanded all their parachute and ranger battalions, (now accurately reflected in the AE OOB) shut down training units, and rounded up every spare guard, cook and mechanic they could find in order to find enough marines to fill out the 5th and 6th divisions.

The US was infantry-poor the entire war. The early war plan eventually called for 200 divisions; the Army couldn't field 100. The number of service troops needed was much higher than anticipated; the Army created way too many tank destroyer, cavalry, and coastal AA units; the B-29 program sucked away the last manpower reserves.

Unfortunately, the game engine doesn't allow the player to select surplus units to disband in order to add more infantry. A nice project for WITP II.

< Message edited by Blackhorse -- 12/19/2007 6:48:41 AM >

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RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 12/19/2007 5:59:19 AM

Blackhorse

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac
From the allied side (and to some extent but less so the Japanese)

1st 6 - 9 months�the balance is for more smaller units Bn, Bde and 'special' adhoc units - e.g. BlackForce, Birds, RM Viper force these reflect the lack of staying power and organisation the allies face etc etc

Divisions are around but especially in India and Australia are heavily under strength�and�the sheer quantity of smaller units around swamps them.

After that period it moves towards a more Divisional focus as reinforcements and round out units arrive allowing recombination of Divisions and replacements start to fill up Divs and some of the smaller adhoc units disband.

Over time Frontier/Light Horse�Bn's in India and Australia disband - in India because some Divisional TOE's move to having a 10th Bn and in Australia because they were absorbed in other formations and manpower was needed.

Andy

What Andy says is also true for US forces.

The US doesn't have enough divisions to garrison key islands along the SLOC to Australia. As in the actual war, the player will find himself breaking down divisions to guard important islands by assembling Regimental Combat Teams (an infantry regiment, artillery battalion, coastal AA battalion and other odds and ends as available), and defending lesser islands with the useful Marine Defense Bns.

< Message edited by Blackhorse -- 12/19/2007 6:00:19 AM >

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RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 12/19/2007 8:43:23 AM

Jim D Burns

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac
Dont worry the Australian Militia are all heavily under strength at start they are not quite at 25% strenght the actuals vary unit by unit effective stregnth incl disruption at start are on the order of 30% overall with some units nearer 100% i.e. 30th Bde when it arrives.

Is it possible to make these units full strength but with a static device that gets replaced by a non-static device TO&E on a specific date? By making them under strength you simply make it cheaper to release them to non-fixed commands, thus necessitating a house rule about their release.

Jim

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RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 12/19/2007 9:33:17 AM

Jim D Burns

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse
My TO&E standard is Stanton's "World War II Order of Battle" which does not show the Special Cavalry TO&E. If anyone has it to share, I'd be delighted to see it.

I know I've read before that the 1st Cavalry was equipped as a light infantry division in WWII after they turned in their horses, but I can't find/remember the book I read that in. It also had some unique aspects to its TO&E, this page gives some insights into the organizational changes made, but not a specific TO&E.

http://www.first-team.us/journals/1stndx02.html

Jim

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RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 12/19/2007 9:57:46 AM

Jim D Burns

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac
Over course of late 42 early 43 the 6 independent LH Bn sized forces disband (de facto some of these moved into the Bdes above and other regts were merged or disbanded)

Hi Andy,

With all the mandatory disbandment�s in game now, is there some note on the unit info display to warn players of the disbandment date? If not players will need to memorize all the organizational changes, a feat I doubt can be achieved. I can already hear the complaints piling up, �I lost Noumea because the entire defending force disbanded right as the Japanese began their attack�.

Jim

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RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 12/19/2007 12:09:04 PM

Kereguelen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac
Over course of late 42 early 43 the 6 independent LH Bn sized forces disband (de facto some of these moved into the Bdes above and other regts were merged or disbanded)

Hi Andy,

With all the mandatory disbandment�s in game now, is there some note on the unit info display to warn players of the disbandment date? If not players will need to memorize all the organizational changes, a feat I doubt can be achieved. I can already hear the complaints piling up, �I lost Noumea because the entire defending force disbanded right as the Japanese began their attack�.

Jim

Can answer this: You can see the disbandment date in the unit screen (something like 'withdraw in 550 days'). Btw., not really a problem for the Japanese player. If I remember correctly, only two IJA units are set to disband (but some SNLF are set to convert to Naval Garrison Units).

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