Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

RE: What´s this pictures history?

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> RE: What´s this pictures history? Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3 4 5   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: What´s this pictures history? - 12/11/2007 6:57:25 PM   
tocaff


Posts: 4781
Joined: 10/12/2006
From: USA now in Brasil
Status: offline
I'm surprised that a bit of a photo of a ship can be identified, but nothing on this picture.

_____________________________

Todd

I never thought that doing an AAR would be so time consuming and difficult.
www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2080768

(in reply to rtrapasso)
Post #: 31
RE: What´s this pictures history? - 12/11/2007 7:01:53 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tocaff

I'm surprised that a bit of a photo of a ship can be identified, but nothing on this picture.



We can all make guesses, and one of them might be correct, but who is to know?? In the ship photo ID contests, people guess at things all the time.

(in reply to tocaff)
Post #: 32
RE: What´s this pictures history? - 12/11/2007 7:24:39 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso


quote:

ORIGINAL: tocaff

I'm surprised that a bit of a photo of a ship can be identified, but nothing on this picture.



We can all make guesses, and one of them might be correct, but who is to know?? In the ship photo ID contests, people guess at things all the time.

The majority of the ship contests are allied ships , and the photo's have been documented. Having spent hundreds of hours looking at thousands of wartime photo's for three different museums , I can tell you that about 85% of undocumented photo's get a great big ? on the back. You can ID uniforms,weapons , geo features and sometimes even people to get an approximate time , but often that's about it. Propaganda photo's (unless you have original document -copy of the magazine it appeared in , etc) are a real pain as they are more likely to be using prop's vice real items. This one obviously was staged , but better than most. Uniforms , weapons and props (US flag on ground) appear to be real , current with the time period , and correctly worn. I'm guessing the explosion was done by theatrical people vice military , as military people of the time period knew how to blow things up (and pepper them with shrapnel) not give good special effects. (Today they do , but largely to make training more acurrate , rather than stage propaganda). So other than the fact it was staged early in the war , pre 1943 , professionally done by a film studio , there is not much I can tell you from this print. And I'll bet every one who reads this forum could tell you the same thing.

< Message edited by AW1Steve -- 12/11/2007 7:47:34 PM >


_____________________________


(in reply to rtrapasso)
Post #: 33
RE: What´s this pictures history? - 12/11/2007 7:27:59 PM   
Joe D.


Posts: 4004
Joined: 8/31/2005
From: Stratford, Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ike99

... Many pictures looked staged that are not. Flag raising of Iwo Jima for example.


Honestly, in additon to the actual flag raising shot at Iwo, Rosenthal also took a staged photo afterward, but it was because he didn't think he captured the original and didn't want to return back down the mountain empty-handed.

There was also a controversy w/Rosenthal's "real" photo and another taken of the first flag raising w/a smaller flag by another photographer, who I believe worked for Leatherneck magazine. I recall Rosenthal worked for the AP.

Again, your photo is too interesting, and whomever took it had the presence of mind to turn the camera on its end and take a portrait shot -- instead of the typical landscape angle -- which usu. doesn't happen in actual combat.

This photo could have been a promotional still for an IJ WW II propaganda film, although its "portrait" orientation couldn't have come from a frame of a movie.

Ike, when you first found this photo, was there any (relevant) text that went w/it?





_____________________________

Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.

"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to Ike99)
Post #: 34
RE: What´s this pictures history? - 12/11/2007 7:35:35 PM   
Snowman999

 

Posts: 90
Joined: 4/11/2007
Status: offline

quote:

Will that be modelled in AE?


Well played, sir!

(in reply to mlees)
Post #: 35
RE: What´s this pictures history? - 12/11/2007 7:39:57 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ike99

... Many pictures looked staged that are not. Flag raising of Iwo Jima for example.


Honestly, in additon to the actual flag raising shot at Iwo, Rosenthal also took a staged photo afterward, but it was because he didn't think he captured the original and didn't want to return back down the mountain empty-handed.

There was also a controversy w/Rosenthal's "real" photo and another taken of the first flag raising w/a smaller flag by another photographer, who I believe worked for Leatherneck magazine. I recall Rosenthal worked for the AP.






i hadn't heard that before, although i had heard he had taken a picture of a bunch of guys posing for a photo (a kind of unit shot) on the same roll of film ... according to an interview i read (many years ago).

He had an inquiry of "was that photo staged?" and he thought they were talking about the group photo, and so replied "yes" - and this started the "the photo was staged" business.

< Message edited by rtrapasso -- 12/11/2007 7:41:02 PM >

(in reply to Joe D.)
Post #: 36
RE: What´s this pictures history? - 12/11/2007 7:49:46 PM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline
That is Toshiro Mifune on the right..he is sucking in his lower lip for dramatic effect.


I think the other guy is a guy I knew in high school named Alan Hata. I am pretty sure he had Asperger's syndrome. If that were a real artillery round going off behind Alan, he would already be peppered (if not sawn in half) with shrapnel. I bet he got Toshiro's autograph.

Here is Toshiro's picture. I can't find one for Alan.




Attachment (1)

(in reply to tocaff)
Post #: 37
RE: What´s this pictures history? - 12/11/2007 7:55:53 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline
I don't think so!

_____________________________


(in reply to Cap Mandrake)
Post #: 38
RE: What´s this pictures history? - 12/11/2007 8:11:37 PM   
ChezDaJez


Posts: 3436
Joined: 11/12/2004
From: Chehalis, WA
Status: offline
quote:

So in other words you don´t know either and should just shut the F up.

Yeah I´m starting to agree with some other posters and believe the Matrix forums are better left to the Yankees, their propaganda and their unique sense of insecurity.


My, oh my...

You asked for comments... you got them. And they explained (Joe D in particular) that the photo was probably staged.

Then you turn and around tell everyone that they don't know what they are talking about and to "shut the F up!". Then you try to blame your dislike of the answers on the Yankees. Dude, you probably didn't notice because of your own bias but at least half of the posters who answered your question aren't from America.

Chez



_____________________________

Ret Navy AWCS (1972-1998)
VP-5, Jacksonville, Fl 1973-78
ASW Ops Center, Rota, Spain 1978-81
VP-40, Mt View, Ca 1981-87
Patrol Wing 10, Mt View, CA 1987-90
ASW Ops Center, Adak, Ak 1990-92
NRD Seattle 1992-96
VP-46, Whidbey Isl, Wa 1996-98

(in reply to Ike99)
Post #: 39
RE: What´s this pictures history? - 12/11/2007 8:20:05 PM   
Hortlund


Posts: 2884
Joined: 10/13/2000
Status: offline
I have found some answers!!


After googling "the biggest mouth in the history of the world" and variations on that theme, I found this.



As you can see, the similarities are too obvious to ignore.

Here the mystery thickens though, as the image I found is a drawing from the 15th century. Can it be that we have stumbled upon evidence of some Japanese version of the Philadelphia experiment? Is the mouth big enough to have its own gravitational field, and this somehow disrupts the time/space continuum, and a wormhole was opened between 15th century Europe and a Japanese propaganda photo-studio in 1943? More questions...can we find the answers?

_____________________________

The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to a close.
In its place we are entering a period of consequences..

(in reply to ChezDaJez)
Post #: 40
RE: What´s this pictures history? - 12/11/2007 8:28:14 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline
Panzerjag , I'm begining to worry about you and this oral fixation. I'll bet Freud would have a thing or two to say about this.

_____________________________


(in reply to Hortlund)
Post #: 41
RE: What´s this pictures history? - 12/11/2007 8:30:08 PM   
Ike99


Posts: 1747
Joined: 1/1/2006
From: A Sand Road
Status: offline
quote:

AW1Steve- This one obviously was staged , but better than most. Uniforms , weapons and props (US flag on ground) appear to be real , current with the time period , and correctly worn. I'm guessing the explosion was done by theatrical people vice military.


Here is a staged picture AW1Steve. No explosions, no blackened faces, no grim, desperate expressions. The picture in question does not seem in keeping to the Japanese propaganda style of the period.




Attachment (1)

(in reply to AW1Steve)
Post #: 42
RE: What´s this pictures history? - 12/11/2007 8:30:39 PM   
goodboyladdie


Posts: 3469
Joined: 11/18/2005
From: Rendlesham, Suffolk
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Panzerjag , I'm begining to worry about you and this oral fixation. I'll bet Freud would have a thing or two to say about this.


If he is into Natalie Portman and has an oral fixation, Freud would probably say he was wired right!

_____________________________



Art by the amazing Dixie

(in reply to AW1Steve)
Post #: 43
RE: What´s this pictures history? - 12/11/2007 8:34:40 PM   
Joe D.


Posts: 4004
Joined: 8/31/2005
From: Stratford, Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

i hadn't heard that before, although i had heard he had taken a picture of a bunch of guys posing for a photo (a kind of unit shot) on the same roll of film ... according to an interview i read (many years ago).

He had an inquiry of "was that photo staged?" and he thought they were talking about the group photo, and so replied "yes" - and this started the "the photo was staged" business.


Yes, Rosenthal called the staged photo his "graduation" shot, and it was obviously posed. But his real flag raising photo was so good someone at AP asked if it was genuine, and Joe thought it was in reference to the "fake" photo. Again, I don't think Rosenthal was sure he even captured the actual flag raising.

Two separate flag rasings on Iwo by two different photogs didn't help, either, as there was another controversy as to who was in each photo as different men helped raise both flags.

But since IJ was better organized, I don't think there's much controversy over Ike's pic; again, it's just too good to be real, but as to where it came from ...


_____________________________

Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.

"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to rtrapasso)
Post #: 44
RE: What´s this pictures history? - 12/11/2007 8:38:26 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ike99

quote:

AW1Steve- This one obviously was staged , but better than most. Uniforms , weapons and props (US flag on ground) appear to be real , current with the time period , and correctly worn. I'm guessing the explosion was done by theatrical people vice military.


Here is a staged picture AW1Steve. No explosions, no blackened faces, no grim, desperate expressions. The picture in question does not seem in keeping to the Japanese propaganda style of the period.




I'd say it is keeping with a staged photo done by Military--In this case IJN people. Keep in mind that propaganda , like journalism , occurs at all levels. In this case , it's done by a particular military force (The INJ's Naval Landing force) vice the other one which I belive was done by a studio. A comparison would be a base newspaper (or small town) with the capacity of Warner brothers. I'd say that both are staged. If you look at real combat photo's (like say Capra at Normandy or Steichen in the Pacific) one over riding thing jumps out at you--they are messy. Caotic and disorderly. An general rule of thumb is , if its neat or clean , it's probably not genuine. This isn't always true , obviously , but fewcameramen are willing to die for that photo. And very few combattants will take the time to look into the camera.

_____________________________


(in reply to Ike99)
Post #: 45
RE: What´s this pictures history? - 12/11/2007 8:40:41 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: goodboyladdie


quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Panzerjag , I'm begining to worry about you and this oral fixation. I'll bet Freud would have a thing or two to say about this.


If he is into Natalie Portman and has an oral fixation, Freud would probably say he was wired right!

Oh , I didn't say he was wired wrong , just a little bit heavy on the "current".

_____________________________


(in reply to goodboyladdie)
Post #: 46
RE: What´s this pictures history? - 12/11/2007 8:44:47 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ike99

quote:

AW1Steve- This one obviously was staged , but better than most. Uniforms , weapons and props (US flag on ground) appear to be real , current with the time period , and correctly worn. I'm guessing the explosion was done by theatrical people vice military.


Here is a staged picture AW1Steve. No explosions, no blackened faces, no grim, desperate expressions. The picture in question does not seem in keeping to the Japanese propaganda style of the period.





i don't think that is correct - when i saw the photo, i immediately thought of the description of the Japanese film made about taking Corregidor, which prominently features a Japanese soldier lobbing grenade after grenade into the enemy, blowing them up. BTW, this was based on an actual incident, except the grenade thrower was American. The film was shown to US survivors of the attack who commented on this (much to the annoyance of the Japanese).

However, i think the thrower was supposed to be on a water tower of some kind, so this probably is not the incident. However, if the unknown photo is a still from a theatrical presentation (rather than a staged photo with troops for newsreels) i would expect grim expressions, explosions, blackened faces, flags in the dirt, etc.

(in reply to Ike99)
Post #: 47
RE: What´s this pictures history? - 12/11/2007 9:07:17 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ike99

quote:

AW1Steve- This one obviously was staged , but better than most. Uniforms , weapons and props (US flag on ground) appear to be real , current with the time period , and correctly worn. I'm guessing the explosion was done by theatrical people vice military.


Here is a staged picture AW1Steve. No explosions, no blackened faces, no grim, desperate expressions. The picture in question does not seem in keeping to the Japanese propaganda style of the period.





i don't think that is correct - when i saw the photo, i immediately thought of the description of the Japanese film made about taking Corregidor, which prominently features a Japanese soldier lobbing grenade after grenade into the enemy, blowing them up. BTW, this was based on an actual incident, except the grenade thrower was American. The film was shown to US survivors of the attack who commented on this (much to the annoyance of the Japanese).

However, i think the thrower was supposed to be on a water tower of some kind, so this probably is not the incident. However, if the unknown photo is a still from a theatrical presentation (rather than a staged photo with troops for newsreels) i would expect grim expressions, explosions, blackened faces, flags in the dirt, etc.

I was thinking more along the lines of "staged on the scene" at the time. Think of Patton's Landing in Sicily , which he alledgely had them reshoot several times because he was not happy with it. Or McArthurs "I returned" photo , which was posed , but done in one take , (Despte McAuther being somewhat "p-ssed" because the water was higher than he expected. One thing that second photo showes acurrately is that Japanese troops were far more likely to use their knee-mortars (which gave you range , accurracy and , if used correctly -safety) than close to grenade tossing range. And wouldn't they? They had them , and the allies didn't.

_____________________________


(in reply to rtrapasso)
Post #: 48
RE: What´s this pictures history? - 12/11/2007 9:22:08 PM   
06 Maestro


Posts: 3989
Joined: 10/12/2005
From: Nevada, USA
Status: offline
Hey Ike

There is a chance the actors are still alive. If you post this picture on a Japanese site, you just might be able to learn all about the production.
Good luck on your search for knowledge.

(in reply to AW1Steve)
Post #: 49
RE: What´s this pictures history? - 12/11/2007 9:54:56 PM   
Sonny II

 

Posts: 2878
Joined: 1/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

.................

Will that be modelled in AE?


You'll have to ask in the Land Thread in the design subforum.


(in reply to Hortlund)
Post #: 50
RE: What´s this pictures history? - 12/11/2007 9:56:18 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sonny II


quote:

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

.................

Will that be modelled in AE?


You'll have to ask in the Land Thread in the design subforum.






(in reply to Sonny II)
Post #: 51
RE: What´s this pictures history? - 12/11/2007 10:07:34 PM   
Dixie


Posts: 10303
Joined: 3/10/2006
From: UK
Status: offline
It's not to do with the photo, but here's a few lines froma 1944 Japanese propaganda leaflet about faking the signs of neurosis which I found interesting The leaflet had 13 parageraphs telling a GI what not to do:

Don’t fall into the habit of glancing sideways at your comrades-in-arms. Your surgeon dislikes such a habit, as it predicts the approaching menace of neuroses.
Don’t eat your own excrement or drink your own urine in the presence of others. If you do, you are sure to be branded as a lunatic, however warmly you may protest.

Don’t mumble the same words immediately after you have spoken them. If you practice it repeatedly, your surgeon’s verdict will inevitably be neurosis.



(The smileys are added by me BTW...)


< Message edited by Dixie -- 12/11/2007 10:09:01 PM >


_____________________________



Bigger boys stole my sig

(in reply to rtrapasso)
Post #: 52
RE: What´s this pictures history? - 12/11/2007 10:20:54 PM   
niceguy2005


Posts: 12523
Joined: 7/4/2005
From: Super secret hidden base
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

I have found some answers!!


After googling "the biggest mouth in the history of the world" and variations on that theme, I found this....


I could give you suggestions on "the biggest mouth in history", but....



_____________________________


Artwork graciously provided by Dixie

(in reply to Hortlund)
Post #: 53
RE: What´s this pictures history? - 12/11/2007 10:26:12 PM   
Ike99


Posts: 1747
Joined: 1/1/2006
From: A Sand Road
Status: offline
quote:

Hey Ike

There is a chance the actors are still alive. If you post this picture on a Japanese site, you just might be able to learn all about the production.
Good luck on your search for knowledge.


Actors? There are many pictures from WW2 maestro that appear to be made by actors or ¨staged¨ or faked in some way when in fact they are not.

But it´s not suprising you pass judgement on this picture without a shred of any actual, historic record and when no one yet can point to where it came from or when.

Yes I will continue to look for some factual historic record on this picture and dismiss unfounded ¨opinions.¨

But I do like my history to be based upon some sort of credible facts and not just fashioned to the way I like it or simply what I ¨think¨.






Attachment (1)

(in reply to 06 Maestro)
Post #: 54
RE: What´s this pictures history? - 12/11/2007 10:30:12 PM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve





One thing makes me suspect this is a "posed" shot. If you are standing up to throw a grenade at someone, it's really stupid to yell and attract his attention (and fire) before you have safely "hit the dirt" again. Looks more like Hollywood's idea of combat than any member of "the right honorable brotherhood of dem wat has been shot at".

(in reply to AW1Steve)
Post #: 55
RE: What´s this pictures history? - 12/11/2007 10:37:08 PM   
Dixie


Posts: 10303
Joined: 3/10/2006
From: UK
Status: offline
Most 'combat' photos from WW2 were staged, it was a secondary consideration when compared to actually winning the battle.  As others have said, what kind of lunatic photographer would be between his own troops and the enemy whilst his guys are lobbing grenades over his head with artillery rounds exploding around him? 

It looks too neat and posed to be a real combat photo, if it was taken under real combat conditions in that position the picture would be more likely to be off kilter.  I also like the way the American flag has fallen in such a convenient place.



_____________________________



Bigger boys stole my sig

(in reply to Ike99)
Post #: 56
RE: What´s this pictures history? - 12/11/2007 10:38:17 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

Ike, as a former military journalist w/some PR experince, this photo looks like it was posed deliberately and not an actual combat photo.

Notice the almost theatrical-like expressions on these soldiers faces; and to capture these expressions, the photographer was ahead of them while they were throwing a grenade in his direction. What does that tell you?

As a photograper, I can tell you that the picture is perfectly cropped (framed) and composed, almost too good for real life. Recall that Joe Rosenthall's flag raising at Iwo pic was almost an accident as he was caught off-guard and wasn't even looking thru his view finder (no SLRs back then).

Finally, the crumpled US flag is just too convenient; it looks like a prop placed on the ground.

Ike, this photo is most probably an IJ PR fabrication; i.e., it was faked.


Plus, if the enemy is close enough to throw a grenade at them, the guy on the lower right is being awfully casual with his rifle...

(in reply to Joe D.)
Post #: 57
RE: What´s this pictures history? - 12/11/2007 10:39:58 PM   
TulliusDetritus


Posts: 5521
Joined: 4/1/2004
From: The Zone™
Status: offline
To me this seems an authentic war photo.

Mike, many soldiers "yell" in the battlefield. The most famous two WW2 photos (Iwo Jima and the red banner over the Reichstag) were sort of fake. By that I mean these were not the first, original flags. In both cases, detachments were sent to deploy another flag. Both Rosenthal and Khaldey did an excellent artistic job though.

EDITED: I think you all should be avoiding an analythical approach: "humm, this is not normal, etc., etc.". War is the most surrealistic thing you may imagine. So who are we to say "this [Japanese] soldier is weird!"? Another problem is that those who truly fought in the first line almost NEVER talk about their horrible experiences... So what's "normal" in the battlefield?

EDITED BIS: oh oh, I did not notice the American flag... I thought it was a Japanese flag (I didn't see the stars). That makes the pic fake then.

< Message edited by TulliusDetritus -- 12/11/2007 11:07:15 PM >


_____________________________

a nu cheeki breeki iv damke

(in reply to Mike Scholl)
Post #: 58
RE: What´s this pictures history? - 12/11/2007 10:46:28 PM   
goodboyladdie


Posts: 3469
Joined: 11/18/2005
From: Rendlesham, Suffolk
Status: offline
Hey Tullius

I am having a little trouble with RHS. As you have a lot of experience playing it, could you look in on the thread on AAA values in the design forum and give me the benefit of your opinion, please?

Very best regards

Carl

_____________________________



Art by the amazing Dixie

(in reply to TulliusDetritus)
Post #: 59
RE: What´s this pictures history? - 12/11/2007 10:51:26 PM   
TulliusDetritus


Posts: 5521
Joined: 4/1/2004
From: The Zone™
Status: offline
Carl, well, I don't think that is true, but if I can I will try to help you. Presto then

_____________________________

a nu cheeki breeki iv damke

(in reply to goodboyladdie)
Post #: 60
Page:   <<   < prev  1 [2] 3 4 5   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> RE: What´s this pictures history? Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3 4 5   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.953