RE: CleverDevils2 AAR

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RE: CleverDevils2 AAR - 2/1/2008 6:12:40 PM

Jimmer

Posts: 1968
Joined: 12/5/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

Sir ess1: Well, I aint had much book lernin, but I done did aprediate yours callen me Augustus and God and all...I like ta dink I be all dat in EiA...dat why I remark ta yall.

Jimmer(GB): no problem with not explaining strategy, etc...and did'nt mean to insult with the "wise up" comment...just a little kick in the rear-end. I think GB should be the foremost diplomatic power/effort(most vocal)...organizing and leading the anti-French coalition, and keeping them in line. The most important thing is to keep Prussia and Austria(and Russia) on the same page and hopefully in a nice big 12 corp grouping with Charles on Theresienstadt for maximum flexibility and defense, and have all three along with GB begin the game at war with France. You need to get Russia to get their @ss into the fight. Prussia fighting France alone is not only a disaster for Prussia and Austria, but a breakdown in the responsibility of GB. Diplomacy is the biggest factor in EiA...as Clausewitz wrote: "not all in warfare is military". Being "relatively silent" has given France an awesome start to this game and put the Allies in a bind. Now you have to hope France makes a mistake for the Allies to recover. If France is smart he will have the Germany's in a rotation. Frankly, if I'm France I'm looking at Spain and asking WTF!...allied to GB??? Time to park Le Grande Armee in Spain after the Germany's surrender...and make it a harsh surrender...no need to see a strong Prussian army with Blucher in the next war. Maybe the Austrian army can keep away from any major battles with Napy for 1.5 to 3 years?...I doubt it...or maybe head for the Russian border and link up with Kutusov. As Odysseus wrote in post #55 "all is not lost...all nations are resilient", and as we say here in our F2F games..."its a long game". In EiA everyone needs to talk to everyone often...if a player in EiA does not, that player is SCREWED! At least that is what have seen in my 15 years of playing this game F2F.
C
Miami Beach

And how, pray tell, would you have done this negotiating BEFORE THE GAME STARTED? Remember now to include in your answer the fact that I did not know I would be playing GB.

PRUSSIA declared the war, before the game started. Without any input from anybody. There wasn't a darned thing GB could do about it until it was far too late. After all, I might have been playing France (in which case I would LOVE this turn of events)!

I don't like it any more than you do (or than Prussia does, for that matter). But, there's nothing that can be done. Prussia is going to die horribly. Then France will gobble up minors until either they are all gone or Austria picks on one that France chooses to defend. At that point, GB and Russia will do what they can, but I'm not sure it will be enough.

Still, I DO still have a few tricks up my sleeve. But, they are not coming into view until I use them.

_____________________________

At LAST! The greatest campaign board game of all time is finally available for the PC. Can my old heart stand the strain?

(in reply to Jagdtiger14)

Post #: 61

RE: CleverDevils2 AAR - 2/1/2008 8:10:17 PM

Jagdtiger14

Posts: 1686
Joined: 1/22/2008
From: Miami Beach
Status: offline

Am I missing something here? Is the computer game so much different than the F2F game? I can not imagine diplomacy not happening before the game. After you find out what country you are playing you can not pause the game? Or know what country you are playing before you begin? When I begin a new game...and according to the rules the first phase is political and the first step is "diplomacy"...I initially speak to everyone. Are you telling me that you were not aware of everyone's e-mail address beforehand? When you found out what country you are playing, you just went directly into the game? If I had been a player in this group I would have made sure there was at least enough time(days worth) before the game begins...this is your right...and if you did not demand this right, then...maybe that is why it is what it is. If I'm GB, the first talk I have is with Prussia/Austria...probably a short talk if they are on the page they need to be, if not(Prussia in your case)...that discussion could be rather lengthy. The next diplomatic conference I have is with Russia for obvious naval and German assistance issues. Then I speak to Turkey probably with Austria and maybe Russia included to keep Turkey off Austria and Russia's back. Do they want the Ottoman?...do they want to keep it and for how long? Then I speak with Spain...trying to get them to stay neutral naval-wise. Then France to see if he might be interested in trade and peace if he could see the advantage of a surrender;-), then lastly speak with Prussia-Austria-Russia to make sure we are all on the same page and deal with operational/tactical issues. Besides being the Allied banker, you can contribute 4.5 moral troops as welll as take victory points from those not following your foreign policy leadership.
C
Miami Beach

_____________________________

Conflict with the unexpected: two qualities are indispensable; first, an intellect which, even in the midst of this obscurity, is not without some traces of inner light which lead to the truth; second, the courage to follow this faint light. KvC

(in reply to Jimmer)

Post #: 62

RE: CleverDevils2 AAR - 2/1/2008 9:02:00 PM

AresMars

Posts: 234
Joined: 12/13/2007
Status: offline

The computer game is VERY different from the FTF game.

Many of the EIANW players have no experience playing the FTF game, and may not have the advantage of experience beyond playing against an all AI opponent(s).

You comments about pre-game diplomacy are an excellent learning tool (and an important point to be made) for players who have never played EIA before.

However, IMHO, your critique is ill placed and badly viewed by others, including myself. I have yet to meet a gamer who likes a backseat General!

(in reply to Jagdtiger14)

Post #: 63

RE: CleverDevils2 AAR - 2/1/2008 9:34:02 PM

gwheelock

Posts: 563
Joined: 12/27/2007
From: Coon Rapids, Minnesota
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

Am I missing something here? Is the computer game so much different than the F2F game? I can not imagine diplomacy not happening before the game. After you find out what country you are playing you can not pause the game? Or know what country you are playing before you begin? When I begin a new game...and according to the rules the first phase is political and the first step is "diplomacy"...I initially speak to everyone. Are you telling me that you were not aware of everyone's e-mail address beforehand? When you found out what country you are playing, you just went directly into the game? If I had been a player in this group I would have made sure there was at least enough time(days worth) before the game begins...this is your right...and if you did not demand this right, then...maybe that is why it is what it is. If I'm GB, the first talk I have is with Prussia/Austria...probably a short talk if they are on the page they need to be, if not(Prussia in your case)...that discussion could be rather lengthy. The next diplomatic conference I have is with Russia for obvious naval and German assistance issues. Then I speak to Turkey probably with Austria and maybe Russia included to keep Turkey off Austria and Russia's back. Do they want the Ottoman?...do they want to keep it and for how long? Then I speak with Spain...trying to get them to stay neutral naval-wise. Then France to see if he might be interested in trade and peace if he could see the advantage of a surrender;-), then lastly speak with Prussia-Austria-Russia to make sure we are all on the same page and deal with operational/tactical issues. Besides being the Allied banker, you can contribute 4.5 moral troops as welll as take victory points from those not following your foreign policy leadership.
C
Miami Beach

What you are missing is the idea of BIDDING for countries. This is done with an auxiliary program called the 'GAP. You
bid (additional) VPs for each country that you want. Until the bids are compared; you do not know WHICH country you are
playing. This is also the place that you can set up PRE-GAME DOWs. This is what happened in this game. The person playing
Prussia created a pre-game DOW against France (they are conditional; you can set up different DOWs depending on which
country you get). AFAIK; he did not make any deals with anyone (I know he didn't make any with ME & others have said the
same thing) about contingencies. This all occured before Jimmer BECAME Britain. After the bids were compared & countries
assigned, we DID have several days of Diplomacy before the game actually started (we were waiting for the 1.01 patch);
but by that time the Franco-Prussian war had already started. I don't know if there was any diplomacy to try to get the
Austrians & Russians into the war or not - I did get several requests FROM the Russians & Austrians (I'm France) to
"go easy" on the Prussians & I originally offered them a conditional if they accepted on the January Dp phase.
Now that French blood has been spilled ...

(in reply to Jagdtiger14)

Post #: 64

RE: CleverDevils2 AAR - 2/1/2008 9:43:09 PM

Jagdtiger14

Posts: 1686
Joined: 1/22/2008
From: Miami Beach
Status: offline

I am seeing the computer game is different from F2F...which is not a big deal to me, but I really wish computer EiA could have a F2F player assist where F2F players could get some turns done during the week or missed weekends. That would require the ability to make manual changes to corp strengths and maybe some other things that would not be too difficult to add.

Concerning being a backseat General...Mostly we have been discussing diplomacy here...and to add "ill placed" to being a backseat General, maybe you could explain to me what After Action Reports(AAR) are for? I assume AAR's are posted specifically to get feedback from the peanut gallery?...or maybe some put AAR's up for the grandiosity of themselves and a few others? I assume players reading AAR's are interested in seeing how others play and look for the best or better path that only the cruciable of competing views can demonstrate. If that is viewed badly by you and some others, and you prefer censorship, then its my view the greater good is not served. If its that you dont like my style...oh well

To add...I am VERY open-minded to any strategy to win this game...so long as everyone is interested in winning it from the start(some just like to play slash and burn(mostly with France) and then the game ends with disapointment and wasted time). The great thing about EiA is that everything is possible...you can play this game hundreds of times and never experience the same game. I respect and admire players who take unconventional paths to victory(strategy as well as tactics)...that being said...no need to make obvious rookie mistakes, and I assume the Prussian player in this game is a rookie. I think he's learned his lesson, and if I were in this 3 turn old game I would vote to re-start regardless what country I am playing...especially France...how much fun can you really have beating up on your 6 year old sister?
C
Miami Beach

_____________________________

(in reply to AresMars)

Post #: 65

RE: CleverDevils2 AAR - 2/1/2008 9:56:28 PM

Jagdtiger14

Posts: 1686
Joined: 1/22/2008
From: Miami Beach
Status: offline

My appologies...I do not have the computer game as of yet. Thank you for the explanation on how it works. So, you bid AND pre-game DOW all in the same step? It seems to me that is a flaw in the computer game if there is not a pause or seperate stop prior to pre-game DOW's...pre-game diplomacy(after you know your country) is a critical event in EiA!!! That is a BIG change that must be put into in a future patch! Frankly, I would never pre-game DOW if thats the way it is.
C
Miami Beach

_____________________________

(in reply to gwheelock)

Post #: 66

RE: CleverDevils2 AAR - 2/1/2008 10:33:00 PM

Murat

Posts: 803
Joined: 9/17/2003
From: South Carolina
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AresMars
The computer game is VERY different from the FTF game.

Many of�the EIANW�players have no experience playing the FTF game, and may not have the advantage of experience beyond playing against an all AI opponent(s).

You comments about pre-game diplomacy are an excellent learning tool�(and an important point to be made)�for players who have never played EIA before.

However, IMHO, your critique is ill placed and badly viewed by others, including myself.� I have yet to meet a gamer who likes a backseat General!

AARs are a learning tool not just an informative vehicle. Like it or not Prussia needed Austrian help at the very least in this war. To say that is not ill placed, it is accurate and it may be moot, Prussia may have tried, but if Prussia didn't, now he knows for next time. Austria may have refused thinking no big deal, now he knows for next time. People sometimes get upset at advice but I give it any way - it can always be ignored. Everyone has their opinions and their strategies. Every one of my Prussian bids (and Austrian for that matter) has had a pre-existing war with France attached to it, my Spains have had one with Britain, it saves 4pp by getting the likely wars started and allows diplomacy to carry on from there. Speaking of what to do next is inappropriate in my mind and is backseat generalling, commenting on what has occcurred is not. Austria should have done a Jan DOW on France and a border minor (one that France was probably going to declare war on but one that lacked a corp) and should have had that planned before setup. I would have actually set the whole Austrian army up in Briesgau, told Prussia to set up everything in Nuremburg and watched how the French handled that. But like I said, everyone has their own strategy.

(in reply to AresMars)

Post #: 67

RE: CleverDevils2 AAR - 2/1/2008 10:52:11 PM

bresh

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Joined: 8/8/2005
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Well pre-wars are choosen in gap before you know who plays who.
But as Prussia its clear you need to have a good plan to survive long enough for help to come.
The prussian setup didnt show this.
Also Austria knowing war going on as Early could if he wanted have setup close to Prussia if he wanted to help.
Seems he didnt...
So Prussia looked doomed from early on, Unless he got extremly lucky.

Regards
Bresh

(in reply to Murat)

Post #: 68

RE: CleverDevils2 AAR - 2/1/2008 11:44:53 PM

AresMars

Posts: 234
Joined: 12/13/2007
Status: offline

I agree that AARs are a learning tool (and an excellent one) but only _one_ player is really writing this AAR. France, in this case.

So I see this more as a French diary of (ATM) GLORY.

to you gwheelock!

If the other players are recording their thoughts for the future, I eagerly look forward to hearing them.

I would like to understand the mindset of the Prussian also, but until he speaks I must remain silent!

If Jagdtiger14's original comment was sololy directed at France then that would be fine, however,

Comments such as:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14
Does'nt seem to be very many "clever" devils in this game. Since you only completed three months, you ought to re-start...but only if the Prussian and British players promise to wise up. The Russian is not too bright either. Maybe GB, Prussia, and Russia players deserve this head-ache of a game. I feel bad for Austria. Consider this bad start as a tutorial. Its giving me a headache just reading this AAR.
C
Miami Beach

Do not seem to be in any way constructive to the other players or the community at large, but clearly negative critism of the players involved (and the Prussian, Russian and British more directly)

I understand that everyone has an opinion (and should - it is still a free world) but they do not always have to be shared - in particular, when they are critical, insulting, negative, or otherwise unfriendly. Putting people on the defensive is never a good way to help anyone. It gets their back up and insults and slights tend to follow....not fun to watch....

If my Backseat General comment rubbed you the wrong way, I am sorry. Sometimes the shoe fits. I have worn it myself on occasion.
<slap> Bad AresMars!

I have _never_ suggested censorship. I was suggesting a change in approach.

EIANW is _not_ EIA - many of the players are not EIA veterans and have NEVER played before....you have overlooked this fact, and have not even played the EIANW version.

The WAR ROOM is an open place for "EIA Veterans" to post THEIR VERSION of what players (rookie or otherwise) should be doing, should be considering, should be avoiding. Not 'hijacking' (my word - could not think of a better one) the French players AAR.

Murat:

You are a veteran player but not everyone wants to do it your way (or mine, or his, or her's)....some people still like to learn from their own mistakes and learn at their own speed. Sometimes, we ALL WANT to comment but there are times when we SHOULD NOT....begin responsible and mature is knowing when.

(in reply to bresh)

Post #: 69

RE: CleverDevils2 AAR - 2/2/2008 12:17:31 AM

gwheelock

Posts: 563
Joined: 12/27/2007
From: Coon Rapids, Minnesota
Status: offline

Actually; I wish that the other players WOULD post items here.
(On the bright side; maybe some of these negative comments will
get people p***ed off enough to start doing that.)

Personally; I don't mind "backseat generals" - I figure that I'm good
enough to take on the entire world (and I'm modest, too

)

(in reply to AresMars)

Post #: 70

RE: CleverDevils2 AAR - 2/2/2008 1:24:50 AM

Jagdtiger14

Posts: 1686
Joined: 1/22/2008
From: Miami Beach
Status: offline

I wholeheartedly admit that I am a big time 20/20 hindsighted "backseat" General. Shame on me. But then again, is not EVERY wargamer? I mean...we play these types of games in the light of: "what would you have done in this historical situation". That if you could travel back in time and advise the losing side what to do that could have given them a chance to win...someone please hire Suverov out of Russian retirement, or...hey...I HATE the NAZI's...but I can point to a bunch of decisions beginning with the Molotov-Ribbentrop agreement through the near end of the battle of Kursk that could have changed the outcome of the war. This is the fun for wargamers/wargaming.

AresMars: I would like to point out what you wrote on January 22 in post #22 advising the Prussians on what they should do(as opposed to what they did). I have no problem with what you wrote, but it is hypocritcal of you in your following posts. Anyway, I think I made my point and we all have our own quirks on how we express ourselves. In my biting remarks I was hoping to mix it up and get the Prussian(as well the GB, Russian) player to come forward and explain himself...the GB player did to his credit...of course that invites further debate, which I think is a good thing. Would it not be boring otherwise??? Do we have to be responsible and mature?...I have enough of that in my real life. I think is is fun to watch controversy. The French player gwheelock said it best in his last post.

When it comes to opinions...I disagree with you...everyone should be allowed to share them no matter what they are...just that the potential listener or reader has no obligation to hear/read it. If my style of opinion offends anyone, I think there is a feature on this forum to ignore any post by a particular post-er. I will not change my approach.

_____________________________

(in reply to AresMars)

Post #: 71

RE: CleverDevils2 AAR - 2/2/2008 2:15:15 AM

AresMars

Posts: 234
Joined: 12/13/2007
Status: offline

Post 22: I am as guilty as the next guy and I admit that I have been hypocritical....my bad. I never said I was perfect nor pretend to be! I have bitten my tounge since then as I have learned that experience levels vary alot more on the internet and I always worry about offending others....I did enough of that (and suffered it) among my own friends but I had more history.

I agree with enough of ' real life ' but responsibility never ends.....and respect for others should be lost.

No harm - no bad feelings?

(in reply to Jagdtiger14)

Post #: 72

RE: CleverDevils2 AAR - 2/2/2008 3:14:39 AM

Jimmer

Posts: 1968
Joined: 12/5/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

Am I missing something here? Is the computer game so much different than the F2F game? I can not imagine diplomacy not happening before the game. After you find out what country you are playing you can not pause the game? Or know what country you are playing before you begin?

Yes, you are missing something. In the bidding GAP, you can choose your bids, AND (for each nation) decide if you want any pre-existing wars. Two columns, one for bids, and one for wars. All happens at the same time.

It's a loss from the original, but it's do-able: Simply stay out of wars.

_____________________________

At LAST! The greatest campaign board game of all time is finally available for the PC. Can my old heart stand the strain?

(in reply to Jagdtiger14)

Post #: 73

RE: CleverDevils2 AAR - 2/3/2008 5:22:10 AM

Jimmer

Posts: 1968
Joined: 12/5/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: gwheelock
Britain makes successful breakin on Sardinia

I didn't realize you were posting numbers. So, in the interests of fairness:

GB assaulted with a 1-factor corps. It was either III Corps or VI Corps, I can't recall (and, it's off-map now). Sardinia's 1 factor broke on the second round and the Sardinian was captured.

_____________________________

At LAST! The greatest campaign board game of all time is finally available for the PC. Can my old heart stand the strain?

(in reply to gwheelock)

Post #: 74

RE: CleverDevils2 AAR - 2/3/2008 5:25:43 AM

Jimmer

Posts: 1968
Joined: 12/5/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

My appologies...I do not have the computer game as of yet. Thank you for the explanation on how it works. So, you bid AND pre-game DOW all in the same step? It seems to me that is a flaw in the computer game if there is not a pause or seperate stop prior to pre-game DOW's...pre-game diplomacy(after you know your country) is a critical event in EiA!!! That is a BIG change that must be put into in a future patch! Frankly, I would never pre-game DOW if thats the way it is.
C
Miami Beach

IMO, next game we are not going to even ALLOW DOWs pre-game, except for France and GB. IF there were a chance to negotiate between bids and game start, it would be OK to have pre-game wars. However, with no opportunity to hear what your potential allies and opponents have to say, it's not worth having.

_____________________________

At LAST! The greatest campaign board game of all time is finally available for the PC. Can my old heart stand the strain?

(in reply to Jagdtiger14)

Post #: 75

RE: CleverDevils2 AAR - 2/3/2008 5:27:08 AM

Jimmer

Posts: 1968
Joined: 12/5/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: gwheelock

Actually; I wish that the other players WOULD post items here.
(On the bright side; maybe some of these negative comments will
get people p***ed off enough to start doing that.)

Personally; I don't mind "backseat generals" - I figure that I'm good
enough to take on the entire world (and I'm modest, too )

I'm starting. I didn't realize what the purpose of these were. I thought it was just an opportunity to joke around. But, I can see both the value and the fun of it now, so I'll join in.

_____________________________

At LAST! The greatest campaign board game of all time is finally available for the PC. Can my old heart stand the strain?

(in reply to gwheelock)

Post #: 76

RE: CleverDevils2 AAR - 2/3/2008 12:15:23 PM

bresh

Posts: 936
Joined: 8/8/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jimmer

IMO, next game we are not going to even ALLOW DOWs pre-game, except for France and GB. IF there were a chance to negotiate between bids and game start, it would be OK to have pre-game wars. However, with no opportunity to hear what your potential allies and opponents have to say, it's not worth having.

Heh, comfort on that.
I have no problem that I did a pre-DOW as Russia on France in the game im currently involved in.

Regards
Bresh

(in reply to Jimmer)

Post #: 77

RE: CleverDevils2 AAR - 2/3/2008 11:33:49 PM

gwheelock

Posts: 563
Joined: 12/27/2007
From: Coon Rapids, Minnesota
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Ok; here are the results of France's April 1805 land turn:

Massena & 2 corp attack Hohenloe & 1 corp in Strasborg.
Chits are Outflank vs Defend.
Prussian casulties : 7I, 3G, 1C; France : 1I

Attachment (1)

(in reply to bresh)

Post #: 78

RE: CleverDevils2 AAR - 2/3/2008 11:36:46 PM

gwheelock

Posts: 563
Joined: 12/27/2007
From: Coon Rapids, Minnesota
Status: offline

Napoleon & 2 corp attack 1 Prussian corp in Cologne (city seige combat):

Breakin was successful.

Casulties : 2 Prussian Cav (he only had 2 cav in the corp)

Attachment (1)

(in reply to gwheelock)

Post #: 79

RE: CleverDevils2 AAR - 2/3/2008 11:40:18 PM

gwheelock

Posts: 563
Joined: 12/27/2007
From: Coon Rapids, Minnesota
Status: offline

1 French corp (no leader) attack 5 Prussian I (garrison) in Wurzberg.
Casulties : 1 Fr Militia, 2 Fr I; 2 Pr I
France breaks leaving 3 Pr I in garrison vs 4 French I in corp

1 French corp (no leader) [w/1I] attack 1 Pr I (garrison) in Magdeberg.
No casulties on either side

1 French corp (no leader) [5I 1M] attack 2 Modena I (Austrian controlled) in Modena
Casulties : 1 Modena I; France breaks leaving 1 Modena I

France makes unsuccessful breakin attempts in Stettin and Stuttgart

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by gwheelock -- 2/3/2008 11:45:18 PM >

(in reply to gwheelock)

Post #: 80

RE: CleverDevils2 AAR - 2/4/2008 3:34:08 AM

Titi

Posts: 153
Joined: 9/15/2001
From: Montr�al
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: gwheelock

Napoleon & 2 corp attack 1 Prussian corp in Cologne (city seige combat):

Breakin was successful.

Casulties : 2 Prussian Cav (he only had 2 cav in the corp)

That's the right moment to surrender when the breach happens to fight another war.
No need to hope that Napoleon is with 1SP corps.

(in reply to gwheelock)

Post #: 81

RE: CleverDevils2 AAR - 2/4/2008 7:57:27 PM

Jimmer

Posts: 1968
Joined: 12/5/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bresh

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jimmer

IMO, next game we are not going to even ALLOW DOWs pre-game, except for France and GB. IF there were a chance to negotiate between bids and game start, it would be OK to have pre-game wars. However, with no opportunity to hear what your potential allies and opponents have to say, it's not worth having.

Heh, comfort on that.
I have no problem that I did a pre-DOW as Russia on France in the game im currently involved in.

Regards
Bresh

No, but GB certainly does. When you go to war with Sweden (or, Denmark), you have greatly increased the odds that France will get them. And use them (against GB). GB is not strong enough early in the game to handle extra fleets jumping in on France's side.

So, while such a move saved Russia 4 PP, it greatly increases the odds that the alliance will eventually lose.

_____________________________

At LAST! The greatest campaign board game of all time is finally available for the PC. Can my old heart stand the strain?

(in reply to bresh)

Post #: 82

RE: CleverDevils2 AAR - 2/5/2008 8:39:37 AM

Odysseus

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Joined: 11/21/2007
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Actually, some players of Spain and Turkey might want to pre-declare war. I see several ways for that, Spain vs GB, France or Turkey, or Turkey vs Austria, Russia or Spain, for instance. Similarly, Russia might pre-declare against Turkey. I just couldn't for the life of me imagine how Prussia would wanna pre-declare on France. That is probably the single most remarkable pre-declaration I've ever seen. Brave, indeed. And if the Prussian player had concentrated all his forces in one single place, instead of running all over the board for all those minors, there might have been a slim chance of that pre-declared war paying off. If he could have won a first major battle against France, thereby signalling for Austria that it was time to join in. Granted, that's a lota if's, and I sure never woulda taken that chance, but this is a game of dice, and stranger things have happened. But again, all those chances went right out the window when he started going after minors instead of focusing on the major enemy.

But hey, lessons learned and all that. I'm sure Prussia will be a quite different opponent in 1807 or so...

< Message edited by Odysseus -- 2/5/2008 8:41:28 AM >

(in reply to Jimmer)

Post #: 83

RE: CleverDevils2 AAR - 2/5/2008 1:18:17 PM

bresh

Posts: 936
Joined: 8/8/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jimmer

quote:

ORIGINAL: bresh

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jimmer

IMO, next game we are not going to even ALLOW DOWs pre-game, except for France and GB. IF there were a chance to negotiate between bids and game start, it would be OK to have pre-game wars. However, with no opportunity to hear what your potential allies and opponents have to say, it's not worth having.

Heh, comfort on that.
I have no problem that I did a pre-DOW as Russia on France in the game im currently involved in.

Regards
Bresh

No, but GB certainly does. When you go to war with Sweden (or, Denmark), you have greatly increased the odds that France will get them. And use them (against GB). GB is not strong enough early in the game to handle extra fleets jumping in on France's side.

So, while such a move saved Russia 4 PP, it greatly increases the odds that the alliance will eventually lose.

Your kidding right ?
Both GB and Russia could cripple the fleets, before they even gets to move ?
You do know GB gets to chose its naval-move order during reinforce-phase ?
And Russia always moves naval before all the others.

If both GB and RUS fleetss hit the Danish/swedish fleets, France gonna bleed heavy on PPs.

If thats enough, im sure he could talk to GB.
GB is likely happy that Russia offers his help vs the French threath, no ?

So if France got control, he could easy loose 4-8 PP, if he didnt go hide.

Regards
Bresh

< Message edited by bresh -- 2/5/2008 1:19:38 PM >

(in reply to Jimmer)

Post #: 84

RE: CleverDevils2 AAR - 2/5/2008 6:07:28 PM

Jagdtiger14

Posts: 1686
Joined: 1/22/2008
From: Miami Beach
Status: offline

I have to agree with Jimmer. I dont have the computer game...so not sure what the ship count is...but in the board game its not normally a good idea for GB and/or Russia to DOW Sweden and Denmark(or Spain DOW on Portugal). If I'm France(49 ships + 15 Dutch=64) and have Spain(57 ships) as a solid partner, thats 121 ships. If Russia uses its fleet to blockade the Danes/Swedes(at least 24 ships minimum to keep the Danes in, and at least 17 ships to keep the Swedes in port = 41 ships). To be on the safe side probably need all Russian ships. That could make for some interesting naval battles...anything could happen including GB getting some PP's...although I as GB would not think the risk worth it. Allot depends on diplomacy and what the alliances are, and what the over-all strategy is.
C

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(in reply to bresh)

Post #: 85

RE: CleverDevils2 AAR - 2/5/2008 6:13:28 PM

Jagdtiger14

Posts: 1686
Joined: 1/22/2008
From: Miami Beach
Status: offline

Prussia might have been able to gobble up a bunch of minors if not at war with France. As for Austria...allot depends on the personalities, but I as Austria would have admonished my Prussian "ally", DOW'ed on France on the first turn and had the Austrian army set up in the mtn's on the Prussian border...and get the Prussians with Charles up there ASAP. So, the Austrians might have a share of the blame here, but I have no idea what the player personalities are. F2F is obviously a superior game where you can guage or already know someone's personality and can look your fellow players in the eyes.
C

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(in reply to Odysseus)

Post #: 86

RE: CleverDevils2 AAR - 2/5/2008 8:56:07 PM

Jimmer

Posts: 1968
Joined: 12/5/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bresh
Your kidding right ?
Both GB and Russia could cripple the fleets, before they even gets to move ?
You do know GB gets to chose its naval-move order during reinforce-phase ?
And Russia always moves naval before all the others.

If both GB and RUS fleetss hit the Danish/swedish fleets, France gonna bleed heavy on PPs.

If thats enough, im sure he could talk to GB.
GB is likely happy that Russia offers his help vs the French threath, no ?

So if France got control, he could easy loose 4-8 PP, if he didnt go hide.

Regards
Bresh

No, I'm not kidding.

The game starts in January, 1805. Winter. Russia's fleets are totally useless until March.

But, war with Sweden doesn't have to occur immediately. Once it does, however, Russia must move all her naval factors into a blockade of Sweden's port where the fleets are.

GB should NEVER be going first unless there is a good reason to do so. So, she won't be the one doing the blockading. She is now dependent upon Russia not only blockading, but also winning the interception.

This might be considered a "good reason", however, for GB to go first. But, there's always a risk there (which is why I said she never should): That France will attempt to break out of all ports, potentially succeeding in one of them. Statistically, the best GB can do blockading 7 French ports (the ideal setup for France, including Sweden and Holland) is 7 x ~83% win battles. The odds suggest that France will actually WIN one of those. With GB having gone first, the game is close to over for her.

This actually happened to me as GB, which is why I am so acutely aware of the risk. GB was in PSD position 40 after 5 wins and one loss (the seventh did not make the attempt), but with a French corps sitting on the west coast of GB. At this point, Spain saw her big chance at glory, and joined in the war the next month. Realizing what a disaster Russia had potentially unleashed upon GB, Russia grabbed all available factors (that WERE destined to conquer Sweden, and dropped them into London. Russia lost the first land combat, but dropped the French corps down a few troops (this was in the boardgame, so there were always 10 factors). The Russian presence plus a few Brits for morale eventually turned the tide, and the French were beated off of the island. But, it was NOT a given, by any stretch. Far too risky, IMO.

The Spanish decided that this was a good time to go to war with GB. However, her fleet was intercepted on the way by an under-powered GB fleet (which won anyhow), and the corps with was sent packing back to Spain. With the Russian help (desperately needed), GB wound up winning the war against Spain. But, it cost the Russians dearly: Half of her ships were gone (along with half of Spain's and 2/3 of Frances, by the end). GB went on to coast to victory in that game (although, five players actually won that game).

But, the risk at the beginning was very high.

_____________________________

At LAST! The greatest campaign board game of all time is finally available for the PC. Can my old heart stand the strain?

(in reply to bresh)

Post #: 87

RE: CleverDevils2 AAR - 2/6/2008 5:43:43 AM

gwheelock

Posts: 563
Joined: 12/27/2007
From: Coon Rapids, Minnesota
Status: offline

Curent results (end of April 1805):

Prussia attacks Wurttemberg with Hohenlohe & 1 corp (containing ONLY 3 cav)
Chits are Echelon vs Counter Attack. Prussia wins
Losses 2 Prussian cav; 0 French

Spain assults Turkish controlled garrison in Tangiers;
Losses are 3 Sp I; 3 Tangiers I; Spain breaks; fails capture.

Britain conquors Sardinia from France (minor country combat)
France conquors Genoa from Britain (minor country combat)
France conquors Ansbach from Prussia
Russia conquors Holstein from France (minor country combat)
Russia conquors Hamberg from Spain (minor country combat)
Lapse of war between Russia & Sweden; Sweden controled by Britain
France creates Piedmont as free state
France creates Saxony as free state

current war status :

Prussian OOB now consists of 1 Cav; 8 Militia & 21 to 26 Infantry - 30 to 35 total

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by gwheelock -- 2/6/2008 5:45:39 AM >

(in reply to Jimmer)

Post #: 88

RE: CleverDevils2 AAR - 2/6/2008 12:31:18 PM

bresh

Posts: 936
Joined: 8/8/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jimmer

quote:

ORIGINAL: bresh
Your kidding right ?
Both GB and Russia could cripple the fleets, before they even gets to move ?
You do know GB gets to chose its naval-move order during reinforce-phase ?
And Russia always moves naval before all the others.

If both GB and RUS fleetss hit the Danish/swedish fleets, France gonna bleed heavy on PPs.

If thats enough, im sure he could talk to GB.
GB is likely happy that Russia offers his help vs the French threath, no ?

So if France got control, he could easy loose 4-8 PP, if he didnt go hide.

Regards
Bresh

No, I'm not kidding.

The game starts in January, 1805. Winter. Russia's fleets are totally useless until March.

But, war with Sweden doesn't have to occur immediately. Once it does, however, Russia must move all her naval factors into a blockade of Sweden's port where the fleets are.

GB should NEVER be going first unless there is a good reason to do so. So, she won't be the one doing the blockading. She is now dependent upon Russia not only blockading, but also winning the interception.

This might be considered a "good reason", however, for GB to go first. But, there's always a risk there (which is why I said she never should): That France will attempt to break out of all ports, potentially succeeding in one of them. Statistically, the best GB can do blockading 7 French ports (the ideal setup for France, including Sweden and Holland) is 7 x ~83% win battles. The odds suggest that France will actually WIN one of those. With GB having gone first, the game is close to over for her.

This actually happened to me as GB, which is why I am so acutely aware of the risk. GB was in PSD position 40 after 5 wins and one loss (the seventh did not make the attempt), but with a French corps sitting on the west coast of GB. At this point, Spain saw her big chance at glory, and joined in the war the next month. Realizing what a disaster Russia had potentially unleashed upon GB, Russia grabbed all available factors (that WERE destined to conquer Sweden, and dropped them into London. Russia lost the first land combat, but dropped the French corps down a few troops (this was in the boardgame, so there were always 10 factors). The Russian presence plus a few Brits for morale eventually turned the tide, and the French were beated off of the island. But, it was NOT a given, by any stretch. Far too risky, IMO.

The Spanish decided that this was a good time to go to war with GB. However, her fleet was intercepted on the way by an under-powered GB fleet (which won anyhow), and the corps with was sent packing back to Spain. With the Russian help (desperately needed), GB wound up winning the war against Spain. But, it cost the Russians dearly: Half of her ships were gone (along with half of Spain's and 2/3 of Frances, by the end). GB went on to coast to victory in that game (although, five players actually won that game).

But, the risk at the beginning was very high.

Thats alot of French forces to keep in ports all game, waiting for just that move.
Also unless Russia and Gb allies, this variant only gives France +2 to control sweden/Denmark. Meaning it doesnt always happen... And France appearnly would count on it.

Only a small part of French navy can actually carry anything mentionworthy.
France with 39H+15H-Hollandish ships +20 transports.
At best thats 6 invasion fleets ? If you can settle for ~10i corps.
And if your want around 15 faktor corps, its 4 invasion fleets.

If GB and Russia allied and if France setup that way, GB could also ask Russia for some troops in GB before Russia starts invading something in Scandinavia.
Im not so sure a French invasion goes as well, if GB and some Russian 10i-corps with ok Russian-Leader around. If france doesnt manage to land 2 corps, and thats not on good odds.

Regards
Bresh

(in reply to Jimmer)

Post #: 89

RE: CleverDevils2 AAR - 2/6/2008 12:34:54 PM

bresh

Posts: 936
Joined: 8/8/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: gwheelock

Curent results (end of April 1805):

Prussia attacks Wurttemberg with Hohenlohe & 1 corp (containing ONLY 3 cav)
Chits are Echelon vs Counter Attack. Prussia wins
Losses 2 Prussian cav; 0 French

Spain assults Turkish controlled garrison in Tangiers;
Losses are 3 Sp I; 3 Tangiers I; Spain breaks; fails capture.

Britain conquors Sardinia from France (minor country combat)
France conquors Genoa from Britain (minor country combat)
France conquors Ansbach from Prussia
Russia conquors Holstein from France (minor country combat)
Russia conquors Hamberg from Spain (minor country combat)
Lapse of war between Russia & Sweden; Sweden controled by Britain
France creates Piedmont as free state
France creates Saxony as free state

current war status :

Prussian OOB now consists of 1 Cav; 8 Militia & 21 to 26 Infantry - 30 to 35 total

Just a quick question, it looks like Berlin French controlled. So Prussia is not forced to surrender yet, although capital is occupied and unbesieged.
Its been discussed around in the Forum, that the game forces surrender.

Regards
Bresh

(in reply to gwheelock)

Post #: 90

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