Slitherine

quote:

The Allied dive and horizontal bombers should have some chance to carry an AP version of their standard 500 and 1000 pound bombs. They were available (especially for the carrier based planes) but there're none in the game.

My blog: https://warshipprojects.com/

quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

All this discussion about how ineffective bombs are against BBs yet with the advent of carriers BBs were essentially dead as a surface fighting ship (too big, too slow, too expensive, it only took that one lucky hit).  The fact is BBs were pretty vulnerable to air power of all types.  They might not be easily sunk, but they could be rendered ineffective.  I don't see this modeled in the game, IMO.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Feltan

In fact, US Battleships (and other nations I am sure too) suffered a number of electrical and communication malfunctions when firing their own broadsides. After a few volleys, these ships were basically unable to use most of their communications gear.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mlees

Does anybody have a link to some data for bombs?

I was frustrated just last night, watching my LBA bounce 40-50 500lb and 1000lb General Purpose bombs off the deck of the Kinugasa. Not a single penetration, even though I probably wiped out a lot of deck guns.

For example, how much armor will a 1000 lb GP bomb penetrate at various altitudes? Ditto 500lb, 250lb, etc...

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: Feltan

In fact, US Battleships (and other nations I am sure too) suffered a number of electrical and communication malfunctions when firing their own broadsides. After a few volleys, these ships were basically unable to use most of their communications gear.

I only ever heard of this on South Dakota during a Solomon Islands battle. Where there any other examples?

quote:

All this discussion about how ineffective bombs are against BBs yet with the advent of carriers BBs were essentially dead as a surface fighting ship (too big, too slow, too expensive, it only took that one lucky hit).  The fact is BBs were pretty vulnerable to air power of all types.  They might not be easily sunk, but they could be rendered ineffective.  I don't see this modeled in the game, IMO.

My blog: https://warshipprojects.com/

quote:

ORIGINAL: csatahajos

I'm not saying that DB weaponry was ineffective just that it's not correct that after only one-two initial hits the hit rate jumps to nearly 100% almost always...

You brought up Mikuma: just check how many SBDs attacked her for maybe 4 or 5 clean hits and the damage would have been much less had the damage-control officer taken the step to jettison her Long Lances (as did Mogami's thus saving his ship).

So USN SBDs with GP bombs would be hard pressed to kill alone a battleship in 1942 ('cos BBs were lightyears bette armoured on their horizontal) and that's what I think the japs realized after their Midway defeat and this put the BBs in to the forward van for the coming SoPac CV battles. Doing so at Midway could have impacted the strikes on their CVs in a great way...but again this is an other topic I guess :)

quote:

ORIGINAL: csatahajos

I'm not saying that DB weaponry was ineffective just that it's not correct that after only one-two initial hits the hit rate jumps to nearly 100% almost always...

You brought up Mikuma: just check how many SBDs attacked her for maybe 4 or 5 clean hits and the damage would have been much less had the damage-control officer taken the step to jettison her Long Lances (as did Mogami's thus saving his ship).

So USN SBDs with GP bombs would be hard pressed to kill alone a battleship in 1942 ('cos BBs were lightyears bette armoured on their horizontal) and that's what I think the japs realized after their Midway defeat and this put the BBs in to the forward van for the coming SoPac CV battles. Doing so at Midway could have impacted the strikes on their CVs in a great way...but again this is an other topic I guess :)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

I think most folks don't use skip-bombing because -
1.  The exp requirement is too high.  You get zip under 70 exp, and begin to results over 80.  You're better served just dropping level bombs from 12 - 15k (whatever your house rules).  In point of fact, the whole point of skip bombing was to create a method that was could be quickly taught and learned, that would prove more accurate than level-bombing.  If anything, the exp requirement to achieve par hits with level bombing should be substantially -lower-, as that was entire point of the excersise.
2.  Big hit to morale and much greater flak losses, means you don't fly as often and take more losses when you do.
3.  If you think trying to penetrate the deck armor with a 500# GP is tough to do from level bombing, what 'til you try to roll vs. the BELT armor doing a skip-bombing attack.

Essentially, skip-bombing is completely useless in WitP.  THAT would be why folks don't use it. 

-F-

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

quote:

ORIGINAL: mlees

Does anybody have a link to some data for bombs?

I was frustrated just last night, watching my LBA bounce 40-50 500lb and 1000lb General Purpose bombs off the deck of the Kinugasa. Not a single penetration, even though I probably wiped out a lot of deck guns.

For example, how much armor will a 1000 lb GP bomb penetrate at various altitudes? Ditto 500lb, 250lb, etc...

Your not likely to find any hard figures because GP/HE bombs wern't designed to penetrate substantial armor , thus no serious testing was done. In reality the type has very little chance of doing so. Same goes for most SAP types as well in terms of finding hard figures for pen. GP/HE weapons were prized for their heavy blast and destructive ability to lighter structures, devices and of course....crew. (Also good against wooden flight decks!) Their "penetrative" characteristics were well characterized when striking Japanese carriers.

For AP though, there are some estimates available.

The USN Mark I AP bomb of 1600lbs was estimated at being able to defeat 7inches of US Class B armor from 10,000 feet. From 4500 feet the estimate was 5 inches.

The more standard USN Mk 33 1000lb AP bomb mentioned in this thread (and others) was rated to be able to penetrate a 5inch deck (US class B) from 10,000 feet or from 6500 feet in 300kt 60degree dive.

For Japan, the Type 99 no.80 Mk 5 used at Pearl Harbor was rated at 5.9inches from 10k.

The Type 2 No.50 Model 1 SAP bomb of 491kg (1,082lb) was rated at 3.15inches armor plate 10k

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ORIGINAL: mlees

Wiki states that the Kinugasa had an armored deck of 36mm (which is 1 1/2 inches to me). Are you saying that a 1000lb GP bomb won't penetrate that?

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ORIGINAL: Zebedee

quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

I think most folks don't use skip-bombing because -
1.  The exp requirement is too high.  You get zip under 70 exp, and begin to results over 80.  You're better served just dropping level bombs from 12 - 15k (whatever your house rules).  In point of fact, the whole point of skip bombing was to create a method that was could be quickly taught and learned, that would prove more accurate than level-bombing.  If anything, the exp requirement to achieve par hits with level bombing should be substantially -lower-, as that was entire point of the excersise.
2.  Big hit to morale and much greater flak losses, means you don't fly as often and take more losses when you do.
3.  If you think trying to penetrate the deck armor with a 500# GP is tough to do from level bombing, what 'til you try to roll vs. the BELT armor doing a skip-bombing attack.

Essentially, skip-bombing is completely useless in WitP.  THAT would be why folks don't use it. 

-F-

That would certainly explain things.

Thanks Feinder.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

quote:

ORIGINAL: mlees

Wiki states that the Kinugasa had an armored deck of 36mm (which is 1 1/2 inches to me). Are you saying that a 1000lb GP bomb won't penetrate that?

Assuming the bomb reaches the armored deck intact, it could damage it enough to vent some of the blast and shrapnel (including pieces of the deck) into the spaces below. But it would not be an absolute in all cases. A good number of 1000LB GP's launched by the US exploded on or near impact with any structure, including wooden flight decks. Mikuma suffered at least two large bomb hits where damage reached two engine rooms and direct hits on the lightly protected gunhouses of both Mogami and Mikuma were taken out by GP hits. Chukuma at Santa Cruz, suffered horrendous superstructure/bridge casualties when a pair of GP's exploded on contact with the upper decks sending the blast and shrapnel into those upper structures.

Kingugasa, if memory served was primarily done in by 1-2 very close near misses which blew in side plating and started massive flooding. So while a GP, esp a larger one will have a small intrinsic armor penetration capability, its neither going to be great nor will it be as cosnistant as with a dedicated AP projectile.

In game terms....the 1000lb GP was intentionally given a pen rating of 70 to allow it to "penetrate" pretty much anything up to but not including a battleship or armored carrier (UK type) (I should know....i was responsible for the value seen in WitP Stock) Thus, a CA's vulnerability to the 1000lb in certain situations is abstractly represented by the bomb's ability to "penetrate" and do some serious damage. Its not completely accurate....but its more accurate than a non penetration. Same goes for the BB. Its not completely accurate to have no pen thus almost zip chance of damage (Fires though and device destruction), but its more accurate than a penetration otherwise you have the phenomenum that was seen in early UV where even a Yamato could be taken out by 5-6 penetrating 1000 GP hits.

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ORIGINAL: mlees

Ah. I'm not playing stock. All of my 1000lb hits failed to penetrate. They just started deck fires. It's frustrating, because now there are cruiser death stars raoming about, bombarding with impunity.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

quote:

ORIGINAL: mlees

Wiki states that the Kinugasa had an armored deck of 36mm (which is 1 1/2 inches to me). Are you saying that a 1000lb GP bomb won't penetrate that?

Assuming the bomb reaches the armored deck intact, it could damage it enough to vent some of the blast and shrapnel (including pieces of the deck) into the spaces below. But it would not be an absolute in all cases. A good number of 1000LB GP's launched by the US exploded on or near impact with any structure, including wooden flight decks. Mikuma suffered at least two large bomb hits where damage reached two engine rooms and direct hits on the lightly protected gunhouses of both Mogami and Mikuma were taken out by GP hits. Chukuma at Santa Cruz, suffered horrendous superstructure/bridge casualties when a pair of GP's exploded on contact with the upper decks sending the blast and shrapnel into those upper structures.

Kingugasa, if memory served was primarily done in by 1-2 very close near misses which blew in side plating and started massive flooding. So while a GP, esp a larger one will have a small intrinsic armor penetration capability, its neither going to be great nor will it be as cosnistant as with a dedicated AP projectile.

In game terms....the 1000lb GP was intentionally given a pen rating of 70 to allow it to "penetrate" pretty much anything up to but not including a battleship or armored carrier (UK type) (I should know....i was responsible for the value seen in WitP Stock) Thus, a CA's vulnerability to the 1000lb in certain situations is abstractly represented by the bomb's ability to "penetrate" and do some serious damage. Its not completely accurate....but its more accurate than a non penetration. Same goes for the BB. Its not completely accurate to have no pen thus almost zip chance of damage (Fires though and device destruction), but its more accurate than a penetration otherwise you have the phenomenum that was seen in early UV where even a Yamato could be taken out by 5-6 penetrating 1000 GP hits.

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ORIGINAL: Historiker

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The exception that proves the rule is Marat. A Stuka hit her with a 500kg bomb and detonated her forward magazine. (The other three turrets were all back in action within a month.) Deck protection on the Sevastopols was poor by pre-WWI standards; a typical WWII light cruiser might be better off.

The Marat was hit by a 1000kg AP bomb, not a 500kg. Moreover, some sources quote that it was a 1800kg AP bomb...

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ORIGINAL: herwin


An unarmoured 65000 ton hull would have required 16 1000 GP hits or 8 (6 on one side) torpedo hits (on the average) to sink.

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An unarmoured 65000 ton hull would have required 16 1000 GP hits or 8 (6 on one side) torpedo hits (on the average) to sink.