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Agressiveness of AI - 3/16/2008 4:18:15 AM   
SmittyG

 

Posts: 45
Joined: 3/7/2007
Status: offline 		It is probably my imagination, but it seems that the AI is playing less agressively than in the past. There is nothing concrete that I can hang my hat on, just a subjective feel.

For many years anything the AI did had to be pretty explicitly in the scenario. During the development of HC2000 / HC2002, the AI seemed to become much more agressive. The AI seemed to generate its own attacks, and often many of them. The current version of the game seems like it has backed off. There seems to me to be a lot less attacks. I wonder if something happened during the last couple of year when AGSI took over development.

Has anyone else noticed this?

Smitty
Post #: 1
RE: Agressiveness of AI - 3/16/2008 9:51:22 PM   
TonyE


Posts: 1551
Joined: 5/23/2006
From: MN, USA
Status: offline 		49 views, I guess I can give my 2 cents (or my first 2 cents, this topic may take a lot of cents).

You are not the first or only person to suggest that the AI in HCE is less agressive than some previous versions.

What I can say with my programmer hat on is that no lever has purposefully been thrown to make the AI less aggressive.  I suspect any difference is from fixing bugs that resulted in an unanticipated mellowing of the AI.  I also can't say that I've noticed it myself but having been in contact with the builds all the way through, may have just adjusted to it as things changed.

Now post HC Gold I did have a change in for a number of builds that allowed the AI to launch its own attacks against land installations (something that was off in HC Gold and all previous HC releases, and is off in HCE).  While it was fun and interesting, the AI doesn't understand the concept of stopping when an idea is clearly stupid and would end up squandering all of its planes and missiles attacking player land installations and have nothing left to attack player ships.

I suspect another contributing factor may be the much tweaked passive sonar model and the totally replaced radar model.  In most cases radar was far more powerful in earlier versions of the game as the curve of radar detection was much less continuous than it is now.  Really the same goes for sonar though the sonar changes started even before HC97 so it won't show as large of an effect from HC2002 to HCE.  Hunting subs in the original DOS Harpoon games and even Winharp is just about child's play.  The point of this paragraph being that the AI will not attack what it hasn't detected and since detection became much more difficult without the scenario design of the 'legacy' battlesets changing at all, makes the AI appear less agressive.

That's just another reason to play these new scenarios guys are putting out, Old Friends yesterday left me really disliking the AI for finding me and killing me, often without me counter-detection my killer.  Play Ralf's F-14 Fleet Defender and give the AI a sniff of your carrier group and the AI will not seem toned down!  Hehe, I think that was a spoiler, don't let them find you!





_____________________________

Sincerely,
Tony Eischens
Harpoon (HC, HCE, HUCE, Classic) programmer
HarpGamer.com Co-Owner

(in reply to SmittyG)
Post #: 2
RE: Agressiveness of AI - 3/17/2008 1:20:47 AM   
Maromak


Posts: 1030
Joined: 12/26/2007
From: Australia
Status: offline 		Thanks for your 2c Tony!

I can't really compare HCE with past versions as I haven't played them (HC97/HC3) for years and I don't really remember the AI.

However wrt aircraft BVR engagements, the enemy aircraft just keep flying into the missiles without any kind of evasive movements.

Looking forward to playing Ralf's scenario!


_____________________________

Certa Cito

(in reply to TonyE)
Post #: 3
RE: Agressiveness of AI - 3/17/2008 10:10:53 AM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Maromak

Thanks for your 2c Tony!

I can't really compare HCE with past versions as I haven't played them (HC97/HC3) for years and I don't really remember the AI.

However wrt aircraft BVR engagements, the enemy aircraft just keep flying into the missiles without any kind of evasive movements.

Looking forward to playing Ralf's scenario!



That is an AI limitation, the AI really has no survival instinct, so it keeps pursuing its target at all costs. You will also notice that the AI will not swap targets even if a closer or more threatening target appears.

A few tips for scenario builders to help bolster the AI effectiveness:

1. SAMs. SAM installations not only give you a good defensive capability, their radars add to the overall radar coverage and are much harder to track down and knock out than airborne AEW assets.

2. Mobile Land Based Radars. The game has 3 garden varieties, long range, medium range and short range. Use these to help with the electronic picture for the AI. Espeically if the player has EW assets. Remember jammers will reduce the effectiveness of the AI's radar, but if you have multiple sites placed throughout the map, the player will have less success jamming all of them.

3. Recon. When it comes to recon, give the AI at least 3 times the number you give the player. Be sure to set long range patrols as well as formation patrols. Have multiple fighter waves on patrol to defend them and use continuous patrol to keep them in place.

4. 3 to 1, the golden rule? Not sure how other designers feel on this issue, but I generally will give the AI at least a 3 to 1 advantage in aircraft just to make up for how it uses them. When the AI has more assets to work with, it seems more agressive because it will have ample units for interceptions.

The AI in HCE is tough enough, when it can see you. The key to scenario design is making sure the AI can find your units and then it will attack them.


_____________________________

Distant Worlds Fan

'When in doubt...attack!'

(in reply to Maromak)
Post #: 4
RE: Agressiveness of AI - 3/17/2008 3:09:06 PM   
CV32


Posts: 1046
Joined: 5/15/2006
From: The Rock, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Maromak
However wrt aircraft BVR engagements, the enemy aircraft just keep flying into the missiles without any kind of evasive movements.


Well, that's not entirely true. AI aircraft will turn away upon initial detection of an opposing AAM launch, but within a short period will typically turn back into the engagement.

If you shoot your AAM's at their maximum range and turn away yourself, the AI aircraft may not always turn to pursue (especially if they calculate they can't catch you), and your missiles may drop harmlessly out of range.

The overriding objective for the AI, however, is to engage you, and their own survival is secondary.

As I'm sure you can see, trying to maintain an ideal balance between aggression and self-preservation is a see-saw battle.

Those are excellent tips from Shark7 (Akula), btw.

_____________________________

Brad Leyte
HC3 development group member for HCE
Author of HCDB official database for HCE
Harpgamer.com Co-Owner

(in reply to Maromak)
Post #: 5
RE: Agressiveness of AI - 3/17/2008 6:10:40 PM   
TonyE


Posts: 1551
Joined: 5/23/2006
From: MN, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Maromak

However wrt aircraft BVR engagements, the enemy aircraft just keep flying into the missiles without any kind of evasive movements.

Looking forward to playing Ralf's scenario!



You guys are sharp, I like it. In previous releases of the game, if the target platform had detected the launching platform, the target platform would get an automatic detection of any weapons launched. Cascade that a layer or two and an avoidance maneuver would occur immediately after launch. Well, we canned the auto-detection, the sensors of the target platform have to detect the incoming all by themselves so that avoidance jink won't always happen in HCE.

Over the 20ish years of Harpoon (Classic) one effect (each different action of the code is an effect, there is a dogfight effect, course following effect, movement effect, they loop continuously to give you the game) gets turned on and off, that one is a more complete evasion methodology. I had also turned that on for quite some time (if you had the WestPac beta it was turned on 2003.16b3 iirc). In those builds the enemy planes were afraid to close on say a Tomcat so to win the air battle all you had to do was fly a few Tomcats at the AI and they would run away. I tweaked as much as reasonable within the bounds of time and interest and didn't reach acceptable performance so it was turned off again (as it was off in HC2002, HC Gold, don't recall if it is on in HC97).



< Message edited by TonyE -- 3/17/2008 6:12:35 PM >

_____________________________

Sincerely,
Tony Eischens
Harpoon (HC, HCE, HUCE, Classic) programmer
HarpGamer.com Co-Owner

(in reply to Maromak)
Post #: 6
RE: Agressiveness of AI - 3/18/2008 12:36:06 AM   
Vincenzo_Beretta


Posts: 440
Joined: 3/13/2001
From: Milan, Italy
Status: offline 		I have a single gripe about the post-patch AI (because I have played a single scenario - that is :) ).

I usually test any new version patch with ye olde "Gauntlet" in the very first GIUK battleset (it has everything: air, surface and sub action). This time after the latest patch, the russian subs mauled my convoy - big and sensible improvement, since I usually play by assuming that I'll find them with my ASW assets before they find me.

However, the attack planes from the Kola peninsula flew AGAIN straight over Narvik, being totally wiped out by the AAA defences placed there.

So, I would be happy if one of these two solutions is reached: A) attacking planes instead of flying over a known threat plot a course so to avoid it; or B) The planes first load out with AtG weapons (if available) and level the menace (Narvik's air defences in this case) before striking the main objective in the following sorties.

To sum it up, anything but a flight of attack planes getting shoot down like lemmings by overflying a known menace :(

P.S. Love the new patch: keep up the good job!

Vince

< Message edited by Vincenzo Beretta -- 3/18/2008 12:37:27 AM >

_____________________________


(in reply to TonyE)
Post #: 7
RE: Agressiveness of AI - 3/18/2008 7:37:15 AM   
TonyE


Posts: 1551
Joined: 5/23/2006
From: MN, USA
Status: offline 		Hehe Vince, a gripe that will not be resolved in the near future.  I would be most appreciative if you create a WishList at HarpGamer and add this item to the list as it is an item I would like to see as well.

http://harpgamer.com/harpforum/index.php?showforum=35

The 2nd patch will most likely focus on majorly reworking the data file formats (scenario, saved game, database).  A decent amount of work on making some tangible strides in the AI I wouldn't expect until patch 4 or so (maybe 3, but I expect for 3 we'll be too excited making use of the reworked data file formats).  All plans subject to change but that's the very rough guesstimate on when the AI will see some gutting.

_____________________________

Sincerely,
Tony Eischens
Harpoon (HC, HCE, HUCE, Classic) programmer
HarpGamer.com Co-Owner

(in reply to Vincenzo_Beretta)
Post #: 8
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