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RE: 2.2 Auto Fill Depth Charts

 
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RE: 2.2 Auto Fill Depth Charts - 3/27/2008 6:31:04 PM   
jdhalfrack


Posts: 293
Joined: 10/22/2007
From: Springfield, IL
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quote:

BTW, PPR probably shouldn't be included in the hard coded values. There is no good or bad for pocket passer, it's more of a play style, than a quality of skill.


Agreed. I don't include it in my OVERALL player ratings of QBs, either.

That's my two sense (as unimportant as it was in this setting )

JD

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(in reply to David Winter)
Post #: 31
RE: 2.2 Auto Fill Depth Charts - 3/27/2008 7:32:30 PM   
Marauders

 

Posts: 4428
Joined: 3/17/2005
From: Minnesota
Status: offline
quote:

David Winter asked:

you mean like this?

RB = (SPD + AGL + STR + INT + END + DIS + BLK + CAT + HND) + (Profile1 + Profile2)
WR = (SPD + CAT + AGL + STR + INT + END + DIS + BLK + HND) + (Profile1 + Profile2)
QB = (PSS + PSA + INT + SPD + AGL + STR + END + DIS + HND) + (Profile1 + Profile2)
DB = (SPD + COV + AGL + STR + INT + END + DIS + CAT + BLA) + (Profile1 + Profile2)
LB = (SPD + COV + AGL + STR + INT + END + DIS + CAT + BLA) + (Profile1 + Profile2)
OL = (SPD + AGL + STR + INT + END + DIS + BLK) + (Profile1 + Profile2)
DL = (SPD + AGL + STR + INT + END + DIS + BLA) + (Profile1 + Profile2)
KI = (KST + KAC)
PU = (KST + KAC)

Profile1 and Profile2 are the two skill choices from the first profile item for that position found. So this does one of two things. It either multiplies one of the existing hard coded values by 2 (because it's added twice) or it adds an additional skill that isn't normally included for that position.


Yes, that is what I mean.

quote:

BTW, PPR probably shouldn't be included in the hard coded values. There is no good or bad for pocket passer, it's more of a play style, than a quality of skill.


I thought about that as I was writing that post. While I believe that a quarterback is better off staying in the pocket and getting his passes off, because yards per attempt are almost always much higher than yards per carry for a quarterback, it is not always the case, so it would likely be better to leave it out as a hard coded value. It also gives QB, WR, RB, DB, and LB positions all nine hard coded values.

On a side note: does DIS or INT play a part in the kicking game?

(in reply to David Winter)
Post #: 32
RE: 2.2 Auto Fill Depth Charts - 3/27/2008 7:39:49 PM   
Marauders

 

Posts: 4428
Joined: 3/17/2005
From: Minnesota
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quote:

quote:

BTW, PPR probably shouldn't be included in the hard coded values. There is no good or bad for pocket passer, it's more of a play style, than a quality of skill.


jdhalfrack stated: Agreed. I don't include it in my OVERALL player ratings of QBs, either.


That makes sense.

quote:

That's my two sense (as unimportant as it was in this setting)


Actually, this is a great place for feedback. Keep it coming.

I am unsure which two senses you are making reference to though. Perhaps sight and sound?



(in reply to jdhalfrack)
Post #: 33
RE: 2.2 Auto Fill Depth Charts - 3/27/2008 7:52:07 PM   
David Winter

 

Posts: 5158
Joined: 11/24/2004
From: Vancouver, BC
Status: offline 		Okay well the proposal above is fairly straight forward to implement. Probably a couple of hours work at most.

So this solution combines the weighted proposal + the use the first profile item / position proposal. So everyone gets a little bit of what they're asking for

RB (SPD + AGL + STR + INT + END + DIS + BLK + CAT + HND) + (Profile1 + Profile2)
WR/TE-SB (SPD + CAT + AGL + STR + INT + END + DIS + BLK + HND) + (Profile1 + Profile2)
QB/HO (PSS + PSA + INT + SPD + AGL + STR + END + DIS + HND) + (Profile1 + Profile2)
DB (SPD + COV + AGL + STR + INT + END + DIS + CAT + BLA) + (Profile1 + Profile2)
LB/CM (SPD + COV + AGL + STR + INT + END + DIS + CAT + BLA) + (Profile1 + Profile2)
CT/OL/BL (SPD + AGL + STR + INT + END + DIS + BLK) + (Profile1 + Profile2)
DL (SPD + AGL + STR + INT + END + DIS + BLA) + (Profile1 + Profile2)
KI (KST + KAC)
PU (KST + KAC)
KR (SPD + AGL + HND + INT + END + DIS + CAT) + (Profile1 + Profile2) 
 

(in reply to Marauders)
Post #: 34
RE: 2.2 Auto Fill Depth Charts - 3/27/2008 7:54:18 PM   
David Winter

 

Posts: 5158
Joined: 11/24/2004
From: Vancouver, BC
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quote:

Actually, this is a great place for feedback. Keep it coming.
I am unsure which two senses you are making reference to though. Perhaps sight and sound?


It's a new M Night Shyamalan movie; The 2nd Sense. Bruce Willis walks around sniffing out dead people... "I smell dead people."

 LOL... sorry.. that had to be said.

(in reply to David Winter)
Post #: 35
RE: 2.2 Auto Fill Depth Charts - 3/27/2008 7:59:11 PM   
Marauders

 

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quote:

So this solution combines the weighted proposal + the use the first profile item / position proposal. So everyone gets a little bit of what they're asking for


I agree.

What I would like is some community feedback on if Profile1 & Profile2 should be added once or twice.  How much weight should they get?  In my opinion, having it weighted only once will put more well rounded players at the top of the depth chart, but I'd like to see what other Maximum Football players would like.


(in reply to David Winter)
Post #: 36
RE: 2.2 Auto Fill Depth Charts - 3/27/2008 8:03:44 PM   
Marauders

 

Posts: 4428
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From: Minnesota
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quote:

ORIGINAL: David Winter

quote:

Actually, this is a great place for feedback. Keep it coming.
I am unsure which two senses you are making reference to though. Perhaps sight and sound?


It's a new M Night Shyamalan movie; The 2nd Sense. Bruce Willis walks around sniffing out dead people... "I smell dead people."




With JD, it is likely sight and sound, because he is often traveling through another dimension, a dimension not only of sight and sound, but of mind. A journey into a wondrous land whose boundaries are that of imagination.



(in reply to David Winter)
Post #: 37
RE: 2.2 Auto Fill Depth Charts - 3/27/2008 8:13:32 PM   
elmerlee

 

Posts: 309
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline 		David, am I understanding that as things now work on the depth carts that your currently using ONLY the two skills listed in the team profile for a certain position to set the depth chart? I'm just trying to figure out how this works until you implement something.

(in reply to jdhalfrack)
Post #: 38
RE: 2.2 Auto Fill Depth Charts - 3/27/2008 10:23:02 PM   
jdhalfrack


Posts: 293
Joined: 10/22/2007
From: Springfield, IL
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quote:

I am unsure which two senses you are making reference to though. Perhaps sight and sound?

Damnit... you know what I mean... CENTS...

I've been staring a a computer screen for like 65 straight hours... the editor is staring to give me fits....

Oh well...

JD

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(in reply to elmerlee)
Post #: 39
RE: 2.2 Auto Fill Depth Charts - 3/27/2008 11:47:34 PM   
MjH

 

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Joined: 2/23/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: David Winter

KI (KST + KAC)
PU (KST + KAC)



Would it be appropriate to add another value (+10, +20?) to the kicker and punter calculation depending on whether the player is designated as a kicker or a punter? If you just use the two kicking attributes, wouldn't one player end up doing all of the kicking?

(in reply to David Winter)
Post #: 40
RE: 2.2 Auto Fill Depth Charts - 3/27/2008 11:55:29 PM   
David Winter

 

Posts: 5158
Joined: 11/24/2004
From: Vancouver, BC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MjH


quote:

ORIGINAL: David Winter

KI (KST + KAC)
PU (KST + KAC)



Would it be appropriate to add another value (+10, +20?) to the kicker and punter calculation depending on whether the player is designated as a kicker or a punter? If you just use the two kicking attributes, wouldn't one player end up doing all of the kicking?



I don't think this will be a problem. Kickers and Punters are unique postions called out for unique slots on the depth chart. So if the depth chart is trying to fill a Punter slot any player on the team that is a specific Punter position will automatically be ranked higher. That's the same for all positions. A user could manually edit a Receiver to have very high passing skills (higher than a QB) but the QB's on the team will always get priority for the 3 QB slots on the depth chart.

thanks
David

(in reply to MjH)
Post #: 41
RE: 2.2 Auto Fill Depth Charts - 3/27/2008 11:57:02 PM   
David Winter

 

Posts: 5158
Joined: 11/24/2004
From: Vancouver, BC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: elmerlee

David, am I understanding that as things now work on the depth carts that your currently using ONLY the two skills listed in the team profile for a certain position to set the depth chart? I'm just trying to figure out how this works until you implement something.




That's how it is supposed to be working yes. Although based on reports, it doesn't sound like it's working properly or it's getting the values correct but flipping the order.

I'm trying to get a patch out within 10 days so hopefully it won't be something you'll have to work around for long.

thanks
David

(in reply to elmerlee)
Post #: 42
RE: 2.2 Auto Fill Depth Charts - 3/28/2008 12:59:25 AM   
elmerlee

 

Posts: 309
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline 		Thanks David. Good news and I repeat the 2.2 patch is great.

(in reply to Frank Brickowski)
Post #: 43
RE: 2.2 Auto Fill Depth Charts - 3/28/2008 1:26:33 AM   
rcleslie

 

Posts: 123
Joined: 6/8/2006
Status: offline 		Does this means that you are working with only two ratings when determining place in a depth chart? Scratch that! I jumped in before reading all of the posts. Anyhow, this entire thread is "right on" as far as I am concerned.

< Message edited by rcleslie -- 3/28/2008 1:47:21 AM >

(in reply to David Winter)
Post #: 44
RE: 2.2 Auto Fill Depth Charts - 3/28/2008 1:30:02 AM   
rcleslie

 

Posts: 123
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Status: offline 		Here, here!

(in reply to Frank Brickowski)
Post #: 45
RE: 2.2 Auto Fill Depth Charts - 3/28/2008 2:48:03 AM   
redwolf1


Posts: 366
Joined: 5/13/2005
From: Maple Ridge, B.C., Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: David Winter

Okay well the proposal above is fairly straight forward to implement. Probably a couple of hours work at most.

So this solution combines the weighted proposal + the use the first profile item / position proposal. So everyone gets a little bit of what they're asking for

RB (SPD + AGL + STR + INT + END + DIS + BLK + CAT + HND) + (Profile1 + Profile2)
WR/TE-SB (SPD + CAT + AGL + STR + INT + END + DIS + BLK + HND) + (Profile1 + Profile2)
QB/HO (PSS + PSA + INT + SPD + AGL + STR + END + DIS + HND) + (Profile1 + Profile2)
DB (SPD + COV + AGL + STR + INT + END + DIS + CAT + BLA) + (Profile1 + Profile2)
LB/CM (SPD + COV + AGL + STR + INT + END + DIS + CAT + BLA) + (Profile1 + Profile2)
CT/OL/BL (SPD + AGL + STR + INT + END + DIS + BLK) + (Profile1 + Profile2)
DL (SPD + AGL + STR + INT + END + DIS + BLA) + (Profile1 + Profile2)
KI (KST + KAC)
PU (KST + KAC)
KR (SPD + AGL + HND + INT + END + DIS + CAT) + (Profile1 + Profile2) 
 


Just getting up to speed with this. I've actually pretty much just been playing quick games and custom teaming (while waiting for the 2.2 patch before any serious league play) so I am a bit behind the eight ball on this one (so please forgive me)...

I have to echo previous sentiments by others that it is very important that depth charting is handled very well (particularily for cpu teams). I think a weighted average of several ratings is the key here. I guess what is ultimately being done is the calculation of a unreported "Overall" rating for each player to determine depth charting (correct me if I am wrong). That being the case, I also like to see more than two ratings factored in. I am happy to see the draft postion be removed from the calculation and the ability of the users, per se, to impact this overall by the profile items (a good call David).

I'd even go one step further, if possible, and establish a "base" forumla, like the above, but also alow for the users to create/modifiy it further to their own liking if they wish. That way we could impact more than 2 ratings (currently in the form of the profile1 & profile2) if we wish. For example, have the users, if they chose, to input the formula ratings for this, essentially hidden, "overall". So I could do RB (2.5SPD + 1.5AGL + STR + 1.2INT + END + DIS + 0.8BLK + 0.7CAT + 1.1HND) If I liked, for example. However, if this would create a massive amount of work for you David, or be very difficult, what you have above would be fine.

Also, what about player age? Doesn't there become a point where a pretty equally talented young player get the nod over the aging and close to retiring veteran? (sorry to perhaps throw in this monkey wrench as well ).

< Message edited by redwolf1 -- 3/28/2008 2:50:39 AM >

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Post #: 46
RE: 2.2 Auto Fill Depth Charts - 3/28/2008 6:05:46 AM   
David Winter

 

Posts: 5158
Joined: 11/24/2004
From: Vancouver, BC
Status: offline 		The ability to edit formulas and things would be great but I'm afraid it's outside the scope of what I can do for a 'quick patch'.

It sounds like this is the approach people would like.

thanks
David

(in reply to redwolf1)
Post #: 47
RE: 2.2 Auto Fill Depth Charts - 3/28/2008 7:40:45 AM   
David Winter

 

Posts: 5158
Joined: 11/24/2004
From: Vancouver, BC
Status: offline 		Attached is a screen capture of what the game is doing on the depth chart screen now (after my changes).

It's now sorting based on the formula listed on the bottom (each player position displays its own formula). It also shows what two skills are being used from the Team Profile as modifiers. In this case, you can see it's loading and using the Pass Strength and Intelligence from the first QB position on the Team Profile. In the event that the position slot is not found in the Team Profile (Holder for example), no modifiers are applied.

I'll need to optimize this code again because now it's a bit slow (I'm loading the team profile too many times). But it seems to be working.

thanks
David






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by David Winter -- 3/28/2008 8:31:12 AM >

(in reply to David Winter)
Post #: 48
RE: 2.2 Auto Fill Depth Charts - 3/28/2008 9:03:02 AM   
Frank Brickowski

 

Posts: 66
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Status: offline 		Looks Good to me.   Thanks.

(in reply to David Winter)
Post #: 49
RE: 2.2 Auto Fill Depth Charts - 3/28/2008 9:07:15 AM   
Marauders

 

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Status: offline 		Looks good.

(in reply to David Winter)
Post #: 50
RE: 2.2 Auto Fill Depth Charts - 3/28/2008 10:47:27 PM   
rcleslie

 

Posts: 123
Joined: 6/8/2006
Status: offline 		Ditto for me.

(in reply to Marauders)
Post #: 51
RE: 2.2 Auto Fill Depth Charts - 3/29/2008 5:29:57 AM   
garysorrell


Posts: 2176
Joined: 1/29/2005
Status: offline 		Im fine with it also. I handle my own teams, but if the AI teams are setting their depth in a way similar to the above, thats all I need. I always set up AI teams with a custome profile anyway, so as long as they are using it, the teams will pretty much pan out like I want them to.

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Post #: 52
RE: 2.2 Auto Fill Depth Charts - 3/29/2008 5:47:04 AM   
David Winter

 

Posts: 5158
Joined: 11/24/2004
From: Vancouver, BC
Status: offline 		Okay well it sounds like this is resolved.

thanks
David

(in reply to garysorrell)
Post #: 53
RE: 2.2 Auto Fill Depth Charts - 3/30/2008 2:34:09 AM   
rcleslie

 

Posts: 123
Joined: 6/8/2006
Status: offline 		I would like to iterate the point about about CPU controlled teams in large leagues. I am currently running a 24 team conference (three divisions) in which only one team (mine) is human controlled. Making sure that the remaining 23 teams have decent depth charts is presently a bit of a bear to do. I can do it of course, but would rather not have to make each team human controlled for that purpose and then go back to CPU control for the actual season. It would be terrific to know that the auto-fill for the CPU controlled teams is using each team's personnel to its best advantage. Anyhow, I am delighted to see this issue being addressed.

(in reply to Marauders)
Post #: 54
RE: 2.2 Auto Fill Depth Charts - 5/3/2008 10:53:18 PM   
Deft

 

Posts: 299
Joined: 9/17/2005
Status: offline 		bump.

Are these changes in 2.2.7?

(in reply to rcleslie)
Post #: 55
RE: 2.2 Auto Fill Depth Charts - 5/4/2008 7:47:03 PM   
David Winter

 

Posts: 5158
Joined: 11/24/2004
From: Vancouver, BC
Status: offline 		Hi.

Yes, this was all implemented for 2.2.7

thanks
David

(in reply to Deft)
Post #: 56
RE: 2.2 Auto Fill Depth Charts - 5/5/2008 6:50:44 AM   
dragon2

 

Posts: 24
Joined: 2/23/2006
Status: offline 		I agree with most of the proposals for fixing the depth chart problems, but still wonder why a RB will replace a Fatigued TE and not the backup TE. Would like to see the game allow us to choose exactly who is supposed to replace the starters when they are fatigued or injured. I have just seen my starting RB replaced by a 3rd string RB and the starting RB was inserted at TE on the same play.




(in reply to David Winter)
Post #: 57
RE: 2.2 Auto Fill Depth Charts - 5/5/2008 8:02:10 AM   
Marauders

 

Posts: 4428
Joined: 3/17/2005
From: Minnesota
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dragon2

I agree with most of the proposals for fixing the depth chart problems, but still wonder why a RB will replace a Fatigued TE and not the backup TE. Would like to see the game allow us to choose exactly who is supposed to replace the starters when they are fatigued or injured. I have just seen my starting RB replaced by a 3rd string RB and the starting RB was inserted at TE on the same play.


Are you setting HB1, HB2, and TE1, TE2, TE3, ... on the depth chart?

(in reply to dragon2)
Post #: 58
RE: 2.2 Auto Fill Depth Charts - 5/5/2008 7:48:40 PM   
dragon2

 

Posts: 24
Joined: 2/23/2006
Status: offline 		Yes i am setting RB1, Rb2 and the same with Te's, and it just happened with a new game as both RB3 came in before RB2, and Qb3 came in before QB2 and Qb3's ratings are ALL lower than Qb2.

I have had this problem since the first build, and continue to have it.

I am an old FBpro user, and I am trying to build my career league on Max FB.
Maybe I am just missing something, but it doesnt seem to have anything to do with the profiles. I changed a teams profile for QB to all the same and it still rates a lesser QB at Number 2.

(in reply to Marauders)
Post #: 59
RE: 2.2 Auto Fill Depth Charts - 5/5/2008 7:54:46 PM   
David Winter

 

Posts: 5158
Joined: 11/24/2004
From: Vancouver, BC
Status: offline
quote:

Maybe I am just missing something, but it doesnt seem to have anything to do with the profiles. I changed a teams profile for QB to all the same and it still rates a lesser QB at Number 2.


I'm not sure I understand. A lesser QB should be at number 2. The formula used to rate the players on the depth chart is shown on the bottom of the screen. This is shown in a couple of screen grabs a bit further up the thread ( http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=1758004 ).

thanks
David

< Message edited by David Winter -- 5/5/2008 7:58:54 PM >

(in reply to dragon2)
Post #: 60
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