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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> The War Room >> Take strong bases Page: [1]
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Take strong bases - 4/30/2008 3:05:12 PM   
Saso


Posts: 232
Joined: 3/7/2008
From: Italy
Status: offline 		This is the first time that I'm trying to take a base strongly defence and I need some advices and explanations.
In my PBEM I have besieged Manila, Singapore and Bataan and I'm bombarding them with the following results:
(the picture show the AV modified just before the attack ends)

Manila

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Manila

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 119396 troops, 1342 guns, 94 vehicles, Assault Value = 2672

Defending force 61975 troops, 473 guns, 130 vehicles, Assault Value = 1190

Allied ground losses:
225 casualties reported
Guns lost 1




Attachment (1)

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RE: Take strong bases - 4/30/2008 3:06:07 PM   
Saso


Posts: 232
Joined: 3/7/2008
From: Italy
Status: offline 		Singapore

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Singapore

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 95436 troops, 1054 guns, 21 vehicles, Assault Value = 2216

Defending force 56599 troops, 433 guns, 14 vehicles, Assault Value = 941



Allied ground losses:
410 casualties reported
Guns lost 2




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 2
RE: Take strong bases - 4/30/2008 3:09:31 PM   
Saso


Posts: 232
Joined: 3/7/2008
From: Italy
Status: offline 		Bataan

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Bataan

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 42722 troops, 427 guns, 30 vehicles, Assault Value = 820

Defending force 21289 troops, 221 guns, 1 vehicles, Assault Value = 487


Japanese ground losses:
8 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

Allied ground losses:
128 casualties reported
Guns lost 8

Here also the enemy has bombarded and I think that his units are in good shape.





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Post #: 3
RE: Take strong bases - 4/30/2008 3:10:52 PM   
Saso


Posts: 232
Joined: 3/7/2008
From: Italy
Status: offline 		What I really need to understand is how "read" the AV value of the bombardment combat report.

Manila example:

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 119396 troops, 1342 guns, 94 vehicles, Assault Value = 2672

Defending force 61975 troops, 473 guns, 130 vehicles, Assault Value = 1190


These AV values have been modified by several factors (HQ, defence, experience, I think the terrain and so on) but do they show me the overall value of all my/enemy elements or only whom has made the bombardment?
In this case the defender's AV value what does it means?

Reading the good post of Feinder about calculation assault strenght, I'd have another questions...

(part of his post)
f. Terrain benefits defender, even if he doesn't own the base
clear = x1
woods = x2
Mountains/Swamp = x3
Urban = x4

g. Forts benefit defender
0 = x1
1 = x1.1
2 = x1.25
3 = x1.5
4 = x1.75
5 = x2
6 = x2.25
7 = x2.5
8 = x2.75
9 = x3

Hypothesis: I want to lead a shock attack against Manila, forts 4 (this is an example, I'm still not sure yet), urban hex.

1) From Manual Skripta: Attacking Units' fire is doubled for odds calculations
Will my AV value be 2672x2 (shock attack)?

2) From Manual Skripta: Defensive fire is doubled against Shock Attacks
Will enemy AV value be 1190x2 (shock attack) x4 (urban) x 1.75 (forts)?


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Post #: 4
RE: Take strong bases - 4/30/2008 3:16:49 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline 		The double defensive fire means that the defenders (who normally attrit your forces with artillery when you attack) get to have two rounds of attrition instead of one (not double AV)... if the defender has little artillery (or ammo) this might not be so bad... if they have a lot of arty and ammo, it will hurt...

Also, attackers seem to get a lot more disrupted, etc. due to a shock attack (independent of double attrition).

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Post #: 5
RE: Take strong bases - 4/30/2008 3:24:24 PM   
John Lansford

 

Posts: 2662
Joined: 4/29/2002
Status: offline 		You need to reduce those fortifications down to zero, or you'll just keep pounding your infantry into bloody pulp.  Naval bombardments and aerial attacks are your friends, as are lots of combat engineers supporting your infantry.  If you've got tanks they will help too, but IRL the Japanese had very few of them.

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Post #: 6
RE: Take strong bases - 4/30/2008 3:37:01 PM   
rtrapasso


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Joined: 9/3/2002
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quote:

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

You need to reduce those fortifications down to zero, or you'll just keep pounding your infantry into bloody pulp. Naval bombardments and aerial attacks are your friends, as are lots of combat engineers supporting your infantry. If you've got tanks they will help too, but IRL the Japanese had very few of them.

Yeah - trying to hit Manilla if it has 4 forts (!) would be like trying to knock down a brick wall by ramming it with your head - without a helmet... it would hurt as bad, and be about as productive.

Use up the enemy supplies - hit the airfields and he has to repair them as long as there are engineers there.

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Post #: 7
RE: Take strong bases - 4/30/2008 4:26:45 PM   
USSAmerica


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From: Graham, NC, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso


quote:

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

You need to reduce those fortifications down to zero, or you'll just keep pounding your infantry into bloody pulp. Naval bombardments and aerial attacks are your friends, as are lots of combat engineers supporting your infantry. If you've got tanks they will help too, but IRL the Japanese had very few of them.

Yeah - trying to hit Manilla if it has 4 forts (!) would be like trying to knock down a brick wall by ramming it with your head - without a helmet... it would hurt as bad, and be about as productive.

Use up the enemy supplies - hit the airfields and he has to repair them as long as there are engineers there.


Bombing his airfields will serve 2 purposes. Repair eats supplies, and more importantly, it keeps his engineers busy with repairs instead of building forts!

If you don't have combat engineers to add to your assault, who can tear down the fortifications, your best bet is using up his supply and starving him out. Once his supply drops below the required levels, he will not recover disabled squads, and his AV will drop. This will accelerate as his supply completely runs out. He'll still be sitting in an urban hex (AV X4), and behind level 4 forts (AV X another 1.75), but you will be dropping his base AV through starvation. 0 X 4 X 1.75 is still 0.

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"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

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Post #: 8
RE: Take strong bases - 4/30/2008 4:32:36 PM   
rtrapasso


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Joined: 9/3/2002
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quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America


quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso


quote:

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

You need to reduce those fortifications down to zero, or you'll just keep pounding your infantry into bloody pulp. Naval bombardments and aerial attacks are your friends, as are lots of combat engineers supporting your infantry. If you've got tanks they will help too, but IRL the Japanese had very few of them.

Yeah - trying to hit Manilla if it has 4 forts (!) would be like trying to knock down a brick wall by ramming it with your head - without a helmet... it would hurt as bad, and be about as productive.

Use up the enemy supplies - hit the airfields and he has to repair them as long as there are engineers there.


Bombing his airfields will serve 2 purposes. Repair eats supplies, and more importantly, it keeps his engineers busy with repairs instead of building forts!

If you don't have combat engineers to add to your assault, who can tear down the fortifications, your best bet is using up his supply and starving him out. Once his supply drops below the required levels, he will not recover disabled squads, and his AV will drop. This will accelerate as his supply completely runs out. He'll still be sitting in an urban hex (AV X4), and behind level 4 forts (AV X another 1.75), but you will be dropping his base AV through starvation. 0 X 4 X 1.75 is still 0.

Well, it never quite drops to 0 - it goes to .25 with 0 supplies, iirc... Niceguy was able to hold Manilla for weeks after he ran out of supply in Threadwar.

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Post #: 9
RE: Take strong bases - 4/30/2008 6:21:49 PM   
Saso


Posts: 232
Joined: 3/7/2008
From: Italy
Status: offline
quote:

The double defensive fire means that the defenders (who normally attrit your forces with artillery when you attack) get to have two rounds of attrition instead of one (not double AV)... if the defender has little artillery (or ammo) this might not be so bad... if they have a lot of arty and ammo, it will hurt...


Thanks rtrapasso, my big misunderstanting.

quote:

You need to reduce those fortifications down to zero, or you'll just keep pounding your infantry into bloody pulp. Naval bombardments and aerial attacks are your friends, as are lots of combat engineers supporting your infantry. If you've got tanks they will help too, but IRL the Japanese had very few of them.


I made several port attacks and then I sent MSW in minesweeping mission but the outcome hasn't been good...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Naval Gun Fire at Bataan (42,51) - Coastal Guns Fire Back!

36 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
Japanese Ships
MSW W.17, Shell hits 18, on fire, heavy damage
MSW W.9, Shell hits 7, on fire, heavy damage
MSW W.10, Shell hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
MSW W.7

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TF 27 encounters mine field at Singapore (23,50) - Coastal Guns Fire Back!

120 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
Japanese Ships
MSW W.15, Shell hits 19, on fire, heavy damage
MSW W.16, Shell hits 15, on fire, heavy damage
MSW W.19, Shell hits 37, on fire, heavy damage

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TF 107 encounters mine field at Singapore (23,50) - Coastal Guns Fire Back!

35 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
Japanese Ships
MSW Banshu Maru #52, Shell hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
MSW Banshu Maru #56, Shell hits 14, on fire, heavy damage

quote:

Use up the enemy supplies - hit the airfields and he has to repair them as long as there are engineers there.

Yes, I'm making airfield and bombardment attacks almost every turn.

quote:

Once his supply drops below the required levels, he will not recover disabled squads, and his AV will drop.


I must look closely at combat reports.

Manila
Previous turn:
Defending force 61975 troops, 473 guns, 130 vehicles, Assault Value = 1190
Last turn:
Defending force 62046 troops, 485 guns, 131 vehicles, Assault Value = 1191

Singapore
Previous turn:
Defending force 56599 troops, 433 guns, 14 vehicles, Assault Value = 941
Last turn:
Defending force 56046 troops, 429 guns, 14 vehicles, Assault Value = 948

Bataan
Previous turn:
Defending force 21289 troops, 221 guns, 1 vehicles, Assault Value = 487
Last turn:
Defending force 20904 troops, 203 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 479

quote:

He'll still be sitting in an urban hex (AV X4), and behind level 4 forts (AV X another 1.75)


Ok, defender's AV value will be 1190 x4 (urban) x 1.75 (forts) total= 8330
attacker's AV value will be 2672.
Is necessary the same AV value to achieve odd 1 to 1 at least, is it correct?


< Message edited by Saso -- 4/30/2008 11:36:06 PM >

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RE: Take strong bases - 4/30/2008 6:25:56 PM   
USSAmerica


Posts: 18715
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Graham, NC, USA
Status: offline 		There are also die roll modifiers for both the attacker and defender, but yes, you are basically correct. 

Looking at the AV for your opponent's troops, it looks like he is not yet short of supply in Singapore or Manila.  The slight increase in AV is probably the result of his troops experience level increasing. 

_____________________________

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"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

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Post #: 11
RE: Take strong bases - 4/30/2008 6:54:06 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America

There are also die roll modifiers for both the attacker and defender, but yes, you are basically correct.

Looking at the AV for your opponent's troops, it looks like he is not yet short of supply in Singapore or Manila. The slight increase in AV is probably the result of his troops experience level increasing.

All kinds of die rolls involved - AV can fluctuate due to these.

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Post #: 12
RE: Take strong bases - 4/30/2008 7:57:46 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		I have seen others claim that airfield repair DOES NOT burn supplies. Disrupted elements use supplies to get back to strength, but filling in bomb craters does NOT burn supplies.

That's what I have read anyway, can't remember the thread, but there seems to be different opinions on that subject.



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Post #: 13
RE: Take strong bases - 4/30/2008 8:08:14 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

I have seen others claim that airfield repair DOES NOT burn supplies. Disrupted elements use supplies to get back to strength, but filling in bomb craters does NOT burn supplies.

That's what I have read anyway, can't remember the thread, but there seems to be different opinions on that subject.




That's not been my experience... it would be easy to test, i think... set up a game - bomb airfield (or don't) and see what it does to supply when they repair (vs. don't repair).

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Post #: 14
RE: Take strong bases - 4/30/2008 8:09:31 PM   
sprior


Posts: 8596
Joined: 6/18/2002
From: Portsmouth, UK
Status: offline 		I believe it's the

Airbase hits 2
Airbase supply hits 4
Runway hits 12
Port supply hits 1

bits that say "supply hits" that destroy the supplies. IIRC it's a percentage of existing supplies.

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Post #: 15
RE: Take strong bases - 4/30/2008 8:13:29 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sprior

I believe it's the

Airbase hits 2
Airbase supply hits 4
Runway hits 12
Port supply hits 1

bits that say "supply hits" that destroy the supplies. IIRC it's a percentage of existing supplies.

Remembering some of the sieges i've gone through, i seem to remember ANY time the AF got bombed, supplies were eaten up at an increased rate during the times when repairs were underway.

i should run a test on this, though... it could be different then when i was playing/learning on the AI (a long time ago) and could check on things.

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Post #: 16
RE: Take strong bases - 4/30/2008 8:14:57 PM   
Mynok


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Please do that and report back. Chop, chop!


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Post #: 17
RE: Take strong bases - 4/30/2008 8:15:49 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


Please do that and report back. Chop, chop!



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Post #: 18
RE: Take strong bases - 4/30/2008 10:00:15 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		That would be an interesting test. I'm not SAYING that's true, I'm just saying someone said it.

I think that's probably right though, that AIRBASE hits do NOT take supply, but AIRBASE SUPPLY hits DO.

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RE: Take strong bases - 5/1/2008 6:00:16 AM   
marky


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Joined: 3/8/2004
From: Wisconsin
Status: offline 		hmmm...

1. fighter sweep
2. bomber raids on port and airfield
3. ground attack missions by fighters and 1 bomber sqrn
4. naval blockade
5. nell and betty blockade
6. gunfire bombardment
7. arty bombardment from troops

repeat as neccessary


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RE: Take strong bases - 5/1/2008 2:03:51 PM   
Saso


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From: Italy
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quote:

3. ground attack missions by fighters and 1 bomber sqrn


Why only one bomber squadron? Fighters in strafing?

quote:

4. naval blockade
5. nell and betty blockade


You mean that the enemy TFs can't leave/enter into port?

quote:

6. gunfire bombardment


Very difficult, too many CDs and mines.


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