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Need advice from an Admiral .. please - 5/27/2008 9:25:04 PM   
barniewhittle

 

Posts: 51
Joined: 3/11/2008
Status: offline 		Am at the bottom of the learning curve trying to succeed with a scenario picked totally from random: HDS8 'surprise surprise' in the Indian Ocean. I have played this several times trying different strategies and each time I get trashed by a billion red missiles of death that appear from the blank ocean. Sometimes if I'm on 5 min time the game is over before I can get back into 1:1 (is there some key stroke that gets you straight back out to 1:1?) I reckon my main problems are seeing the red fleet, then surviving the attacks and responding (is that all of naval warfare ???). Most of the scenarios I have played previously have copious AEW and fighters etc so seeing the bad guy to date hasn't been a problem. This scenario is more interesting...

Midshipman Whittle would appreciate some help from an Admiral to give me a few steers on what I should be doing to improve my performance. I want to keep trying this scenario till I can win - I reckon that's a good way of improving ....

Absolutely brilliant game by the way - still amazed it works so well on my laptop without sending the fan into self-destruct mode - one of the games best features and something I hope is fixed in ANW soon.

Thanks in advance

Mid BW

PS - am away for a few days so might not be able to respond straight away....

PPS - why did anyone let a Midshipman command this lot anyway???!

< Message edited by b whittle -- 5/27/2008 9:26:47 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: Need advice from an Admiral .. please - 5/28/2008 12:11:46 AM   
Warhorse64

 

Posts: 154
Joined: 12/9/2007
Status: offline 		Hitting the <enter> key takes you back to 1:1 immediately. As for the rest, I'd be inclined to pull all the surface groups together, then run south in full defensive mode under max EMCON, and hope that my Ospreys can pounce on any Red subs before they can localize me. This one is going to be mostly about staying hidden, because (as you've noticed) Red has the firepower to bury you if he can find you.

(in reply to barniewhittle)
Post #: 2
Harpoon Classic Scenarios - 5/28/2008 2:54:57 AM   
hermanhum


Posts: 2209
Joined: 9/21/2005
Status: offline 		That's a rather good scenario. Nice and challenging.

Without hoping to give away too much and spoiling your enjoyment and learning process, you can try a few things like checking the various weapons available to you. Do you have any that will over-match the enemy in all cases? Those might be the ones to concentrate upon.

The enemy always investigates active radar, so you can also try to but out some bait. Nothing like a delicious Osprey at high altitude with her radar active and functioning like an ad hoc AEW plane to draw in the vultures. Just be ready with something to handle the snoopers.

If you are bothered by the unseen SLCM or SSM attacks, maintaining a CAP of 6-8 Harriers will solve most problems as their 24-32 AMRAAM are very effective in shooting down missiles.

Hope that this helps and doesn't reveal too much.

This certainly looks like an interesting scenario that I might try re-building for ANW.

_____________________________


(in reply to barniewhittle)
Post #: 3
RE: Harpoon Classic Scenarios - 5/28/2008 6:01:09 AM   
PatinAZ


Posts: 32
Joined: 12/5/2007
Status: offline 		IF I'm reading your post correctly, you're playing at 5 MIN:1 ratio??? Not a good idea. I almost never go past 30 secs:1 and that's when I'm almost sure that nothing will happen. If I think combat is about to break out with anything that will be dangerous to my groups, I'm at 5:1 time or 10:1 maximum. As Warhorse and Herman are both saying, be careful about ship's radar. It may give red just the fix on your location that he needs to launch all the nasty stuff at you. Plane or helo radar is better for this. And if it is offset from your formation by something like 30 miles that's good too. Keep him guessing..
Once missiles are coming in, you usually want to go to all the radars to get best chance to shoot down. Unless they look like they are not coming straight at the formation, then you might want to tough it out.

Pat in the desert

(in reply to hermanhum)
Post #: 4
RE: Harpoon Classic Scenarios - 5/28/2008 3:49:08 PM   
CV32


Posts: 1046
Joined: 5/15/2006
From: The Rock, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hermanhum
This certainly looks like an interesting scenario that I might try re-building for ANW.


If you do, rebuild it with only the AIM-9 equipped Harriers. ;)


_____________________________

Brad Leyte
HC3 development group member for HCE
Author of HCDB official database for HCE
Harpgamer.com Co-Owner

(in reply to hermanhum)
Post #: 5
RE: Harpoon Classic Scenarios - 5/28/2008 3:51:05 PM   
CV32


Posts: 1046
Joined: 5/15/2006
From: The Rock, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PatinAZ
Unless they look like they are not coming straight at the formation, then you might want to tough it out.


Lots of good advice in this thread. Regarding ships' radars, if possible I try to be selective about which units I will energize to engage incomers. No need to light up your whole formation and thereby advertise their position and composition, unless the whole formation is under threat or you need all the SAMs you can muster.

_____________________________

Brad Leyte
HC3 development group member for HCE
Author of HCDB official database for HCE
Harpgamer.com Co-Owner

(in reply to PatinAZ)
Post #: 6
Harpoon Classic Scenarios - 5/28/2008 7:18:01 PM   
hermanhum


Posts: 2209
Joined: 9/21/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CV32

quote:

ORIGINAL: hermanhum
This certainly looks like an interesting scenario that I might try re-building for ANW.


If you do, rebuild it with only the AIM-9 equipped Harriers. ;)



Okay. Testing now.....




Done. Man, that was over quickly.

_____________________________


(in reply to CV32)
Post #: 7
RE: Harpoon Classic Scenarios - 5/30/2008 12:52:59 AM   
PatinAZ


Posts: 32
Joined: 12/5/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CV32

quote:

ORIGINAL: hermanhum
This certainly looks like an interesting scenario that I might try re-building for ANW.


If you do, rebuild it with only the AIM-9 equipped Harriers. ;)


Rebuild with Sidewinders only? Is that to be challenging or to be Mission Impossible?? I'm trying to play that mission in HCE, and I have my hands full!!
By the way, where are the Mig-29s coming from? Is there a naval version of these? I'm only part way thru and still fighting off the attackers. My planes capable of carrying Harpoons are slow and precious few (the V-22s) and are staying behind fighter cover. So have not seen the northern surface group yet.
I'm using my 'other forces' to try to weaken the southern Red surface group.

Pat

(in reply to CV32)
Post #: 8
RE: Harpoon Classic Scenarios - 5/30/2008 4:06:44 PM   
CV32


Posts: 1046
Joined: 5/15/2006
From: The Rock, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PatinAZ
By the way, where are the Mig-29s coming from? Is there a naval version of these?


Yeah, the shipborne MiG-29K appears in this scenario.

< Message edited by CV32 -- 5/30/2008 4:07:22 PM >

_____________________________

Brad Leyte
HC3 development group member for HCE
Author of HCDB official database for HCE
Harpgamer.com Co-Owner

(in reply to PatinAZ)
Post #: 9
RE: Harpoon Classic Scenarios - 5/31/2008 10:07:40 AM   
barniewhittle

 

Posts: 51
Joined: 3/11/2008
Status: offline 		Many thanks for the advice. I realise now my main problem was sailing with radars on, ignoring the EMCON A in the scenario orders. I now survive for much longer though it remains a fascinating challenge and I'm learning a huge amount. I have a few more questions:

What exactly does EMCON A mean and are there B, C versions etc?

How best to use the subs in this scenario - and more generally. I note they can't 'see' very far with passive sonar. One of my subs first discovered the enemy when a torpedo appeared close by out of the blue - presumably dropped by a helio - with no other indication of the fleet. Is there any way the sub can spot helios? How do you manage an approach to a well defended fleet? Can subs see helios at periscope depth?

When a torpedo is on to you, is there any way of evading - changing depth, speed etc?

Whats the best way of firmly locating the fleets so as to launch an accurate missile attack. I had loads of missiles wandering around looking for an enemy group that had turned yellow to red but was still only located by ESM; after firing its position kept altering and the missiles had no chance. How do I do this better?

Are some missiles better than others at getting through defences? If so what determines that? My Tomahawks frequently seem to fail to penetrate.

The more I play the more I enjoy

(in reply to CV32)
Post #: 10
Harpoon Classic Scenarios - 5/31/2008 12:45:36 PM   
hermanhum


Posts: 2209
Joined: 9/21/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: b whittle

What exactly does EMCON A mean and are there B, C versions etc?


Check out Chapter 16, Page 71 of your ANW e-manual.

_____________________________


(in reply to barniewhittle)
Post #: 11
RE: Harpoon Classic Scenarios - 6/1/2008 3:31:18 PM   
CV32


Posts: 1046
Joined: 5/15/2006
From: The Rock, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: b whittle
What exactly does EMCON A mean and are there B, C versions etc?


Sample EMCON plan:

EMCON A: Complete silence, all active systems in standby.
EMCON B: Visual communications only (flag hoist, flashing light, blinkers, semaphore, laser, etc).
EMCON C: EMCON B plus civil surface search radars (LN66, Don K) on selected units (list). Designated communication vessel transmits on commercial RATT (radio teletype).
EMCON D: EMCON C plus UHF/VHF radio and directional satellite uplinks.
EMCON E: EMCON D plus active surface search radars.
EMCON F: EMCON C plus active sonars.
EMCON G: EMCON C plus active air search radars.
EMCON H: Radiate all systems.

quote:

How best to use the subs in this scenario - and more generally. I note they can't 'see' very far with passive sonar. One of my subs first discovered the enemy when a torpedo appeared close by out of the blue - presumably dropped by a helio - with no other indication of the fleet. Is there any way the sub can spot helios? How do you manage an approach to a well defended fleet? Can subs see helios at periscope depth?


Yes, your sub can see helicopters at periscope depth, but only at very close range. They're much more likely to spot you either visually, with EO/IR gear or via radar. Approaching a well defended surface group is an exercise in patience and luck. By far the best way (and sometimes the only way, especially if you're a diesel sub), is to let them approach you.

quote:

When a torpedo is on to you, is there any way of evading - changing depth, speed etc?


Yes. Increase speed, change depth, change course, all in an effort to avoid a close range torpedo that is homing on you. For more distant torpedoes, you may want to play at avoiding getting inside its acquisition range or simply attempt to outrun it. We don't have acoustic countermeasures in HCE (yet).

quote:

Whats the best way of firmly locating the fleets so as to launch an accurate missile attack. I had loads of missiles wandering around looking for an enemy group that had turned yellow to red but was still only located by ESM; after firing its position kept altering and the missiles had no chance. How do I do this better?


If you're going to take a BOL (bearing only launch) at a target whose position has not been fixed (ie. it has that yellow uncertainty zone), your accuracy will be greatly increased if the uncertainty zone is as small as possible. Otherwise, you're often launching in the general direction of the enemy and hoping for the best.

quote:

Are some missiles better than others at getting through defences? If so what determines that?


Definitely. Speed and cruise altitude are the biggest factors. Faster and lower generally means a shorter time for a target to react.

quote:

My Tomahawks frequently seem to fail to penetrate.


In the older battlesets (other than EC2003 and Westpac), the Tomahawk had a less than stealthy RCS. That, combined with a subsonic speed (for a longer flight time), made it vulnerable. The T-hawk is much more stealthy in the EC2003 and Westpac battlesets that use the updated HCDB database.

quote:

The more I play the more I enjoy


Good to hear.


< Message edited by CV32 -- 6/1/2008 6:10:20 PM >

_____________________________

Brad Leyte
HC3 development group member for HCE
Author of HCDB official database for HCE
Harpgamer.com Co-Owner

(in reply to barniewhittle)
Post #: 12
RE: Harpoon Classic Scenarios - 6/3/2008 1:42:22 PM   
mack2


Posts: 243
Joined: 6/29/2007
Status: offline
quote:

How best to use the subs in this scenario - and more generally. I note they can't 'see' very far with passive sonar.


If you have other assets and know where the enemy fleet is going you can move to get in front of the enemy group, then when it's going to hit start slowing down until you stop and the enemy fleet will pass over your head. At a specific point (ie where a torpedo will take about 10 seconds to hit a ship). Wait till the ships are over your sub, and fire.

quote:

Whats the best way of firmly locating the fleets so as to launch an accurate missile attack. I had loads of missiles wandering around looking for an enemy group that had turned yellow to red but was still only located by ESM; after firing its position kept altering and the missiles had no chance. How do I do this better?


If you do above and get a missile ship inside a formation but don't have a good lock/sonar firing solution you could always just surface and radiate your radar. Not the most non-suicidal of tactics. But if you launch say.. an entire Oscar class or Seawolf/Improved LA/Virginia missile and torpedo load with a full radar lock from inside an enemy formation you stand a good chance of there not being an enemy formation there shortly afterwards. I also think it causes ships to launch missiles at the surfaced sub lol. If you go back under the water they always miss.

(in reply to CV32)
Post #: 13
RE: Harpoon Classic Scenarios - 6/3/2008 3:12:42 PM   
CV32


Posts: 1046
Joined: 5/15/2006
From: The Rock, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mack2
If you have other assets and know where the enemy fleet is going you can move to get in front of the enemy group, then when it's going to hit start slowing down until you stop and the enemy fleet will pass over your head.


Absolutely, try and get ahead of the targeted surface group, and lay in wait, especially if you are a diesel. The pucker factor becomes extreme when the group has helicopters and maybe even fixed wing ASW assets probing the waters ahead with dipping sonars and sonobuoys.

quote:

At a specific point (ie where a torpedo will take about 10 seconds to hit a ship). Wait till the ships are over your sub, and fire.


While you do want to shoot from as close a range as possible, be aware of the fact that many warships have shipboard torpedoes that will be launched back at you immediately upon detection of any incoming attack.

_____________________________

Brad Leyte
HC3 development group member for HCE
Author of HCDB official database for HCE
Harpgamer.com Co-Owner

(in reply to mack2)
Post #: 14
RE: Harpoon Classic Scenarios - 6/3/2008 4:21:32 PM   
barniewhittle

 

Posts: 51
Joined: 3/11/2008
Status: offline 		Hey everyone - many thanks for taking the time to give me so much help, really appreciated.  Missile RCS - speed and height affecting vulnerability - the mind boggles, I never realised there was so much going on under the bonnet (sorry, I mean 'hood')....  There is a lot in here...

Final quick Q about formations.  I have set up some Osprey CAPs as suggested as separate patrols.  I guess I could have done this within the formation editor - but then it's less easier to see them as separate entities.  Just wondering what you Admirals do - do you let the staff manage formations, or do you do it yourselves?  Do you just use them for 'local to the group' ASW etc or are there more strategic uses?

(in reply to CV32)
Post #: 15
RE: Harpoon Classic Scenarios - 6/3/2008 5:03:00 PM   
CV32


Posts: 1046
Joined: 5/15/2006
From: The Rock, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: b whittle
Final quick Q about formations. I have set up some Osprey CAPs as suggested as separate patrols. I guess I could have done this within the formation editor - but then it's less easier to see them as separate entities. Just wondering what you Admirals do - do you let the staff manage formations, or do you do it yourselves? Do you just use them for 'local to the group' ASW etc or are there more strategic uses?


Formation patrols are especially useful for ASW. I place my longest ranged assets (eg. S-3 Viking or the fictional SV-22) as far out along the intended path as they can reasonably provide coverage, and then the shorter ranged assets (eg. helicopters, especially those with dipping sonars) closer inside. Once assigned to their patrol sectors inside the formation, they do their job automatically.

If I have a sniff of a subsurface contact, or am transiting a chokepoint or otherwise confined waters, I will assign a long range fixed wing asset (eg. P-3 Orion from shore, or a detached Viking or helo from the formation) to conduct patrols and drop fields of sonobuoys. This must be manually controlled.

Formation patrols are also useful for AEW (airborne early warning), electronic warfare (EW), and CAP (combat air patrol), but be aware that their active sensors will give the enemy a generally good idea of where you are.

_____________________________

Brad Leyte
HC3 development group member for HCE
Author of HCDB official database for HCE
Harpgamer.com Co-Owner

(in reply to barniewhittle)
Post #: 16
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