RE: AE Released at what date?

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RE: AE Released at what date? - 6/9/2008 1:04:41 AM

pmelheck1

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From: Alabama
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just remember - debugging is art of removing bugs which makes programing the art of putting them in!

(in reply to joey)

Post #: 31

RE: AE Released at what date? - 6/9/2008 3:12:29 AM

jwilkerson

Posts: 10525
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pad152

Glad to see a major effort put into the AI, it needs it! �

It'll be a great year for wargaming, I just hope AE isn't released at the same time as Jutland and/or Supremacy at Sea (two other games with no release date)! � Looks like it's not the year for wargaming lite!

We tried to avoid it (major effort)

... but the AI has a mind of its own

... it keeps tugging on us to keep trying to get it to work!

_____________________________

AE Project Lead
New Game Project Lead

(in reply to pad152)

Post #: 32

RE: AE Released at what date? - 6/9/2008 3:16:18 AM

Terminus

Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
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Just when we thought we was out, it pulls us back in...

And when I say "we", I mean my excellent team colleagues fighting to wrangle this beastie. Me, I'm not smart enough.

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We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

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Post #: 33

RE: AE Released at what date? - 6/9/2008 3:33:48 AM

Don Bowen

Posts: 8183
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From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mullk

just remember - debugging is art of removing bugs which makes programing the art of putting them in!

Bugs are the unavoidable side affect of features. Features are the things programmers add to simple code (at user request) to make it complex. The real problem is users.

(in reply to pmelheck1)

Post #: 34

RE: AE Released at what date? - 6/9/2008 5:34:51 AM

bradfordkay

Posts: 8683
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From: Olympia, WA
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True enough... if there were no users, then there would be no problems to fix, right?

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fair winds,
Brad

(in reply to Don Bowen)

Post #: 35

RE: AE Released at what date? - 6/9/2008 5:42:34 AM

Buck Beach

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From: Upland,CA,USA
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Given the state of the economy, if they don't release it soon nobody will have enough money to buy it.

(in reply to bradfordkay)

Post #: 36

RE: AE Released at what date? - 6/9/2008 5:51:47 AM

Gem35

Posts: 3420
Joined: 9/12/2004
From: Dallas, Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Buck Beach

Given the state of the economy, if they don't release it soon nobody will have enough money to buy it.

Better get another job then.

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It doesn't make any sense, Admiral. Were we better than the Japanese or just luckier?

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(in reply to Buck Beach)

Post #: 37

RE: AE Released at what date? - 6/9/2008 8:16:44 AM

Hornblower

Posts: 1361
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From: New York'er relocated to Chicago
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work remote, buy ae..

(in reply to Gem35)

Post #: 38

RE: AE Released at what date? - 6/9/2008 1:09:49 PM

Chris21wen

Posts: 6249
Joined: 1/17/2002
From: Cottesmore, Rutland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gem35

quote:

ORIGINAL: Buck Beach

Given the state of the economy, if they don't release it soon nobody will have enough money to buy it.

Better get another job then.

Programmer maybe

(in reply to Gem35)

Post #: 39

RE: AE Released at what date? - 6/9/2008 2:15:12 PM

m10bob

Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

All I can promise on AI performance is no worse than stock (apart form more access to the AI for modders)

Not promising any more than that.

I suspect I have ran more turns of AI testing than anyone else on the team�and I have seen it pull some nice moves and a few bonehead ones don't forget the added complexity of getting the AI to use all the new features.

Sounds like real-life..(IJN vs IJA)..

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Post #: 40

RE: AE Released at what date? - 6/9/2008 6:08:55 PM

Shark7

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quote:

ORIGINAL: joey

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

All I can promise on AI performance is no worse than stock (apart form more access to the AI for modders)

Not promising any more than that.

I suspect I have ran more turns of AI testing than anyone else on the team�and I have seen it pull some nice moves and a few bonehead ones don't forget the added complexity of getting the AI to use all the new features.

I'm good with that. I suspect most of us are. I am just hoping to have it ready when the 90 degree days arrive in the summer. I might as well turn up the heat with WITP!

It's a little late for that. The 90 degree days of summer started in February here...and will run into December.

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(in reply to joey)

Post #: 41

RE: AE Released at what date? - 6/9/2008 11:09:31 PM

Don Bowen

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From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

quote:

ORIGINAL: joey

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

All I can promise on AI performance is no worse than stock (apart form more access to the AI for modders)

Not promising any more than that.

I suspect I have ran more turns of AI testing than anyone else on the team�and I have seen it pull some nice moves and a few bonehead ones don't forget the added complexity of getting the AI to use all the new features.

I'm good with that. I suspect most of us are. I am just hoping to have it ready when the 90 degree days arrive in the summer. I might as well turn up the heat with WITP!

It's a little late for that. The 90 degree days of summer started in February here...and will run into December.

Yeah, and this year's winter in Texas was unusally warm - both days of it.

(in reply to Shark7)

Post #: 42

RE: AE Released at what date? - 6/10/2008 7:26:33 AM

Flying Tiger

Posts: 496
Joined: 3/11/2008
From: ummmm... i HATE that question!
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quote:

All I can promise on AI performance is no worse than stock (apart form more access to the AI for modders)

Not promising any more than that.

I suspect I have ran more turns of AI testing than anyone else on the team and I have seen it pull some nice moves and a few bonehead ones don't forget the added complexity of getting the AI to use all the new features.

Of course we are all hoping for an AI no worse than stock!! But the new options available to the player will obviously challenge the AI enormously. So... have you added in a few 'helps' for the AI? Not 'cheating' as such, just 'helps'? ie. auto relocation of AK, AP, TK etc wherever they are needed, decreased fuel and supply consumption, shorter recovery times for units, increased experience gain from combat, decreased disruption from malaria zones, maybe even a few extra supply source bases, quick load (ie. single turn) for AP, AK, TK, etc, and whatever else you can think of. I DO NOT want the AI to play with loaded dice, but im not concerned as much if it needs to cut some corners in the background in order to be competitive and therefore fun.

Maybe you have already done lots of this sort of thing? If so, please dont tell us what is done!!

BTW, i would be interested in hearing others ideas on this? Agree?? Hate the idea of the AI getting any bonuses at all with a passion?? What?

(in reply to joey)

Post #: 43

RE: AE Released at what date? - 6/10/2008 7:38:38 AM

Gem35

Posts: 3420
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From: Dallas, Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

quote:

ORIGINAL: joey

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

All I can promise on AI performance is no worse than stock (apart form more access to the AI for modders)

Not promising any more than that.

I suspect I have ran more turns of AI testing than anyone else on the team�and I have seen it pull some nice moves and a few bonehead ones don't forget the added complexity of getting the AI to use all the new features.

I'm good with that. I suspect most of us are. I am just hoping to have it ready when the 90 degree days arrive in the summer. I might as well turn up the heat with WITP!

It's a little late for that. The 90 degree days of summer started in February here...and will run into December.

Yeah, and this year's winter in Texas was unusally warm - both days of it.

And then there are those Ice Storms....

_____________________________

It doesn't make any sense, Admiral. Were we better than the Japanese or just luckier?

Banner By Feurer Krieg

(in reply to Don Bowen)

Post #: 44

RE: AE Released at what date? - 6/10/2008 3:30:47 PM

HansBolter

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From: United States
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Admiral Scott

How far along is AE to being completed?

75% ?

80% ?

85% ?

Just give us your best estimation please.

There is an old rule of thumb for programming projects. They reach 90% completion within a few months, then stay at 90% forever.

That's a correllary of an old adage in the architecture business: The first 99% of the work takes 99% of the time while the last 1% of the work takes 99% of the time.

(in reply to Don Bowen)

Post #: 45

RE: AE Released at what date? - 6/11/2008 12:42:44 PM

Ambassador

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From: Brussels, Belgium
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson
We've been doing integrated weekly builds for over a year and have been doing weekly Matrix Installer builds for a couple of months now - so "integrated testing" is 97% of the testing we're doing. Our only major issue is the AI - but one side benefit is that the delay in this area is allowing the other areas more time for "polishing" ... we just hope the polishing fixes more bugs than it makes!

Just a stupid idea from a newcomer, but...

...why don't you first release a PBEM-only version, without AI requirements, with a later update specifically for the single-player AI ?

(in reply to jwilkerson)

Post #: 46

RE: AE Released at what date? - 6/11/2008 12:58:41 PM

rjopel

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Because there are more people who play against the AI than play PBEM

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Post #: 47

RE: AE Released at what date? - 6/11/2008 1:54:07 PM

Andy Mac

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From: Alexandria, Scotland
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Working AI is a gating issue for release we dont do anything without it.

To be honest its extrememly difficult to churn the numbers of turns needed without an AI to play at least one side so if we did it would have a lot more bugs.

I am finding them all the time in the AI v AI games I run.

Stupid things like is Singapore to tough to take if the AI play it historically, are there any rough spots in Japanese armament production, to few (or to many) devices for some types of LCU's, fort levels and impact on games, stacking levels on atolls.

Pretty much every night I leave AI v AI games running and then review the results in the morning which takes a while to go through all the reports but its a neccessary part of the de bugging process.

(in reply to rjopel)

Post #: 48

RE: AE Released at what date? - 6/11/2008 1:58:00 PM

Andy Mac

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I also find it an intellectual challenge how can I make the AI th nastiest sneakiest opponent I can within the confines of the code we have.

I want to put something in that will have people go WOW the AI did that !!!! - I havent managed it yet but we keep trying. As I said no promises at this stage but we are trying to make the AI as good as we can.

A fact is the AI is at its worst in the big campaign because of the scale and interations with grand strategic thinking which the AI cannot do.

It actually does pretty well in smaller scenarios - its just few people want to play them.

(in reply to Andy Mac)

Post #: 49

RE: AE Released at what date? - 6/11/2008 2:25:54 PM

herwin

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From: Sunderland, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Working AI is a gating issue for release we dont do anything without it.

To be honest its�extrememly difficult to churn the numbers of turns needed without an AI to play at least one side so if we did�it would have a lot more bugs.

I am finding them all the time in the AI�v AI games I run.

Stupid things like is Singapore to tough to take if the AI play it historically, are there any rough spots in Japanese armament production, to few (or to many) devices for some types of LCU's, fort levels and impact on games, stacking levels on atolls.

Pretty much every night I�leave AI v AI games running and then review the results in the morning which takes a while to go through all the reports but its a neccessary part of the de�bugging process.

I'm finding Singapore and Manila really tough nuts in the RHS scenario I'm playing right now. Singapore is being played historically, while Manila is being defended instead of Bataan. Perhaps we need to consider why most WWII operations tended to bypass urban areas. I think a large part of it was that it was hard to defend an urban area. An urban area is three-dimensional with very limited fields of fire, so that single buildings would soak up a company or more. I believe the rule of thumb on the Eastern Front was that you needed a corps to defend a Russian city adequately. So you should penalise a garrison smaller than an army in a major urban hex. Sure, the buildings would make assaults difficult, but a division couldn't defend more than a large town--basically it would have no ZoC in the same hex.

_____________________________

Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com

(in reply to Andy Mac)

Post #: 50

RE: AE Released at what date? - 6/11/2008 2:40:23 PM

m10bob

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From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
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Of course IRL Manila was declared an open city and no troops were stationed there. If the AI can also prevent trrops from deploying there, that "problem" would be solved.

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Post #: 51

RE: AE Released at what date? - 6/11/2008 3:50:49 PM

herwin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Of course IRL Manila was declared an open city and no troops were stationed there. If the AI can also prevent trrops from deploying there, that "problem" would be solved.

Quezon declared it an open city because the Philippines didn't have the forces to defend it, and he wanted to spare the city. Yamashita did not intend to defend it either, given the one million civilians there, but a division-equivalent under Vice Admiral Iwabuchi was encircled and fought it out in a fortified perimeter, incidentally killing about 100,000+ civilians in the Manila Massacre.

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Post #: 52

RE: AE Released at what date? - 6/11/2008 4:06:03 PM

Ambassador

Posts: 1674
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From: Brussels, Belgium
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Working AI is a gating issue for release we dont do anything without it.

To be honest its�extrememly difficult to churn the numbers of turns needed without an AI to play at least one side so if we did�it would have a lot more bugs.

I am finding them all the time in the AI�v AI games I run.

Stupid things like is Singapore to tough to take if the AI play it historically, are there any rough spots in Japanese armament production, to few (or to many) devices for some types of LCU's, fort levels and impact on games, stacking levels on atolls.

Pretty much every night I�leave AI v AI games running and then review the results in the morning which takes a while to go through all the reports but its a neccessary part of the de�bugging process.

So, it really was a stupid idea. Thx.

PS: I do like the smaller scenarios - I'd wish there were more of them.

(in reply to Andy Mac)

Post #: 53

RE: AE Released at what date? - 6/11/2008 4:45:27 PM

Terminus

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Most of the scenarios in AE will be smaller ones. In fact, we have only two full-map scenarios in the initial release.

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We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

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Post #: 54

RE: AE Released at what date? - 6/11/2008 7:40:10 PM

Ambassador

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From: Brussels, Belgium
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This is a really good news. Was the list of available scenarios already disclosed somewhere ?

(in reply to Terminus)

Post #: 55

RE: AE Released at what date? - 6/11/2008 7:54:20 PM

Terminus

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Only 4 or 5 separate places.

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Post #: 56

RE: AE Released at what date? - 6/11/2008 8:21:42 PM

bradfordkay

Posts: 8683
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From: Olympia, WA
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Try the thread on this AE forum titled "Scenarios?".

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fair winds,
Brad

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Post #: 57

RE: AE Released at what date? - 6/11/2008 9:10:55 PM

m10bob

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From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Only 4 or 5 separate places.

...and carefully hidden like Easter eggs on maybe every AE sub-forum and the main page IIRC ?

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Post #: 58

RE: AE Released at what date? - 6/11/2008 9:36:22 PM

Ambassador

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'found it.

(in reply to m10bob)

Post #: 59

RE: AE Released at what date? - 6/17/2008 1:39:28 AM

sventhebold

Posts: 360
Joined: 12/22/2006
From: From MN now AZ Prescott Valley
Status: offline

Yo Shark7 While you may be "HOT

" It has yet to reach 90 here!!!!!!!! It has reached 80 twiice but even that feels too warm to me. As for the AE edition coming later than expected thats fine since it is nice to be outside in the warmer weather soaking up the near 18 hours of daylight. The real secret is AE keeping me busy during the 18 hours of darkness during the winter.