RE: Decisive CV battle late 43 ideas for Japs ?

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> RE: Decisive CV battle late 43 ideas for Japs ?

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RE: Decisive CV battle late 43 ideas for Japs ? - 6/12/2008 7:47:58 AM

Hornblower

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin

quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin

If you attacked Pearl, it's basically down-hill from here. Have fun.

If you didn't, a good hard punch in the nose at this point would have brought America to the conference table.

Seems every opponent the US has ever had has said a good stinging defeat will make America surrender...it's never happened.

Read your American history carefully. I said nothing about a surrender--I was discussing the conditions under which America might have been willing to talk with Japan. I was also assuming Hitler would have made the mistake he made historically. Suppose there had been no surprise attack on Hawaii, Japan had taken a defensive stance against the Pacific Fleet, and there had been a major reverse at the beginning of War Plan Orange offensive. At a minimum, Washington would have gone on the strategic defensive in the Pacific to concentrate on Germany, and it is quite possible the Pacific War would have come to a close with Japan being allowed to keep a few of its goals while returning the American and possibly British possessions. Remember, the Western Allies were happy to give Eastern Europe to the Soviets in return for staying in the war against Germany. Why not give the NEI to Japan in return for cobelligerancy against Germany? Italy switched sides on a similar basis.

Nawh...not a chance. The war was just as much racial as political or territorial-especially after Pearl Harbor. I don't think there is anyway that Americans would have accepted anything but victory. Maybe a short term truce but eventually the war would have continued and the American economy would have prevailed. Any sort of Japanese position of strength in Asia would have been unacceptable for a variety of reasons.

But....we have hijacked this thread. Sorry.

Late 1943, I don't think KB can win given that both sides have all their carriers. The moment has passed. You should have picked the fight a lot earlier. No amount of tactical acumen will make up for the hellcats and helldivers. Not to mention, the massive AA values of the Allied ships.

Oh you might pick off a few Allied carriers but it will cost you all your top pilots and most of your carriers. It is a fight that the Americans should be spoiling for.

I agree with crsutton on this point.. At this time of the war/game, this is an opportunity the USN is waiting for, namely to bring the KB to ground. You'd be better placed to sidestep TF-58 and hit the supply TF or invasion TF if there is one. Maybe, and just maybe if you can knock out there supply and deny them oil and AvGas- they would be vunerable to a hit... Hit the logistics, avoid the CV's...

(in reply to crsutton)

Post #: 31

RE: Decisive CV battle late 43 ideas for Japs ? - 6/12/2008 12:41:36 PM

jeffs

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[/quote]

I am only getting into 1944 in my one PBEM game that has gone a long ways, but it seems to me that you should not be trying to trade a lot of your Japanese carriers for a few Allied carriers. One thing that I have noticed is that if one side keeps their carrier force in being it basically forces the other side to commit its own fleet carriers to make any significant advances. Once you lose your carriers your opponent has much more freedom of action to advance at will.

[/quote]

Great point... If the KB exists, it is damn hard for the allies to advance unless it is in a place where he can have tons of land based planes protecting his every move (NG, DEI).

It takes guts and prayers to put 2 marine divisions in transports when you know the KB can appear out of nowhere...

_____________________________

To quote from Evans/Peattie`s {Kaigun}
"Mistakes in operations and tactics can be corrected, but
political and strategic mistakes live forever". The authors were refering to Japan but the same could be said of the US misadventure in Iraq

(in reply to esteban)

Post #: 32

RE: Decisive CV battle late 43 ideas for Japs ? - 6/12/2008 1:32:37 PM

Bogo Mil

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Another point is that the Allies have a quite limited replacement rate for Hellcats and USN pilots. This restricts their operations, not the lack of carriers. Thus losing 2 or 3 CVs won't have much impact on their abilities in '44 and '45.

You should try to attrit their navy fighter and pilot pools whereever possible. This is a much more efficient way to blunt the Aliies' most dangerous weapon. You should read PzB's AAR, he has done this very well.

(in reply to jeffs)

Post #: 33

RE: Decisive CV battle late 43 ideas for Japs ? - 6/12/2008 2:06:55 PM

Historiker

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Keep your carriers and avoid a decicve battle.
He need to be always afraid of your carriers, while you still have the ability to punch hard. You may run raids into his supply lines or make surprise attacks on ports as long as you have your carriers.

in a pbem, I lost a Carrier to an enemy KB-raid into the area between new caledonia and NZ as it appeared suddenly and met a rebasing CV...

_____________________________

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(in reply to Bogo Mil)

Post #: 34

RE: Decisive CV battle late 43 ideas for Japs ? - 6/12/2008 5:35:55 PM

Cavalry Corp

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Thanks for all the good ideas

The sub plan will not work as the subs die in droves near the allied KB - tried it already . I ost about 6 subs fior one missed shot at the wasp

Being in range of a strike from LBA ( I have loads of Betty units at 80+ exp ) is what I am aiming for as the allied CV seem unconcerned about my bases.

Michael

(in reply to esteban)

Post #: 35

RE: Decisive CV battle late 43 ideas for Japs ? - 6/12/2008 5:49:22 PM

Cavalry Corp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Historiker

Keep your carriers and avoid a decicve battle.
He need to be always afraid of your carriers, while you still have the ability to punch hard. You may run raids into his supply lines or make surprise attacks on ports as long as you have your carriers.

in a pbem, I lost a Carrier to an enemy KB-raid into the area between new caledonia and NZ as it appeared suddenly and met a rebasing CV...

Actually y KB has carred out several port style attacks , one against Columbo and one against Darwin ( which lost me 2BB ) BUT in all I sank about thirty allied ships including a BB , CA couple of CL. I am think about another raid betwen PH and the US or what about a second attack onPH ?

(in reply to Historiker)

Post #: 36

RE: Decisive CV battle late 43 ideas for Japs ? - 6/12/2008 6:46:29 PM

Shark7

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cavalry

quote:

ORIGINAL: Historiker

Keep your carriers and avoid a decicve battle.
He need to be always afraid of your carriers, while you still have the ability to punch hard. You may run raids into his supply lines or make surprise attacks on ports as long as you have your carriers.

in a pbem, I lost a Carrier to an enemy KB-raid into the area between new caledonia and NZ as it appeared suddenly and met a rebasing CV...

Actually y KB has carred out several port style attacks , one against Columbo and one against Darwin ( which lost me 2BB ) BUT in all I sank about thirty allied ships including a BB , CA couple of CL. I am think about another raid betwen PH and the US or what about a second attack onPH ?

Risky if your opponant has it properly defended. Also a good chance they won't have much in the way of shipping there, you need to recon it good first to see if it's even worth the risk.

_____________________________

Distant Worlds Fan

'When in doubt...attack!'

(in reply to Cavalry Corp)

Post #: 37

RE: Decisive CV battle late 43 ideas for Japs ? - 6/12/2008 6:51:21 PM

Cavalry Corp

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From: Sampford Spiney Devon UK
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Oh yes I do my research first an actually the washingto had been hit by two ss torps nad was under repair at Darwin , this was in about June 43 - we are now in October

Michael

(in reply to Shark7)

Post #: 38

RE: Decisive CV battle late 43 ideas for Japs ? - 6/12/2008 7:37:54 PM

niceguy2005

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cavalry

Thanks for all the good ideas

The sub plan will not work as the subs die in droves near the allied KB - tried it already . I ost about 6 subs fior one missed shot at the wasp

Being in range of a strike from LBA ( I have loads of Betty units at 80+ exp ) is what I am aiming for as the allied CV seem unconcerned about my bases.

Michael

That sounds like a workable plan. Combine your assets and play up the Allies self-confidence. Allied CVs are not unbeatable in 43

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(in reply to Cavalry Corp)

Post #: 39

RE: Decisive CV battle late 43 ideas for Japs ? - 6/12/2008 7:41:20 PM

niceguy2005

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cavalry

quote:

ORIGINAL: Historiker

Keep your carriers and avoid a decicve battle.
He need to be always afraid of your carriers, while you still have the ability to punch hard. You may run raids into his supply lines or make surprise attacks on ports as long as you have your carriers.

in a pbem, I lost a Carrier to an enemy KB-raid into the area between new caledonia and NZ as it appeared suddenly and met a rebasing CV...

Actually y KB has carred out several port style attacks , one against Columbo and one against Darwin ( which lost me 2BB ) BUT in all I sank about thirty allied ships including a BB , CA couple of CL. I am think about another raid betwen PH and the US or what about a second attack onPH ?

Unless you have particular intel that PH is weak I would definitely not try that. As you know allied fighter capabilities are much better than at the time of the original attack. Remember you'll be facing P-47s, P-38s and possibly Corsairs and Hellcats, not to mention B-24s and PBYs should detect you long before you get in range.

_____________________________

Artwork graciously provided by Dixie

(in reply to Cavalry Corp)

Post #: 40

RE: Decisive CV battle late 43 ideas for Japs ? - 6/12/2008 9:23:13 PM

Historiker

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quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: cavalry

quote:

ORIGINAL: Historiker

Keep your carriers and avoid a decicve battle.
He need to be always afraid of your carriers, while you still have the ability to punch hard. You may run raids into his supply lines or make surprise attacks on ports as long as you have your carriers.

in a pbem, I lost a Carrier to an enemy KB-raid into the area between new caledonia and NZ as it appeared suddenly and met a rebasing CV...

Actually y KB has carred out several port style attacks , one against Columbo and one against Darwin ( which lost me 2BB ) BUT in all I sank about thirty allied ships including a BB , CA couple of CL. I am think about another raid betwen PH and the US or what about a second attack onPH ?

Unless you have particular intel that PH is weak I would definitely not try that. As you know allied fighter capabilities are much better than at the time of the original attack. Remember you'll be facing P-47s, P-38s and possibly Corsairs and Hellcats, not to mention B-24s and PBYs should detect you long before you get in range.

A raid east of PH is too risky as well, as you are much to far away from your own bases and even slightly damaged carriers may sink. Moreover, he can chase your ships for several days if you meet him there...

_____________________________

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Post #: 41

RE: Decisive CV battle late 43 ideas for Japs ? - 6/12/2008 9:39:26 PM

Bogo Mil

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Most important are 2 questions: What can I lose, and what can I win.

You can lose the entire KB, and what can you win? Nothing substantial. A raid will probably sink several transports with supplies or empty, some escorts, and with luck you sink a cruiser or so. Nice for the propaganda, that's it. The Allies have so many ships, those losses won't hurt them. Only if you are extremely lucky you might stomp over something important like a big troop convoy. I would not count on extreme luck.

It is much better to hold the KB back and wait for a weakly suported invasion or an opportunity to fight in an environment with heavy LBA support.

(in reply to Historiker)

Post #: 42

RE: Decisive CV battle late 43 ideas for Japs ? - 6/12/2008 9:46:57 PM

Mike Solli

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Question for you AFBs out there. How many AKs sunk will inhibit the Allied return? APs? TKs?

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Created by the amazing Dixie

(in reply to Bogo Mil)

Post #: 43

RE: Decisive CV battle late 43 ideas for Japs ? - 6/12/2008 9:49:34 PM

Historiker

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Question for you AFBs out there. How many AKs sunk will inhibit the Allied return? APs? TKs?

2000? 5000?

@Bogo

Initiatuve is the key to victory. If he keeps his CVs away fron the front, tha allies have it...

_____________________________

(in reply to Mike Solli)

Post #: 44

RE: Decisive CV battle late 43 ideas for Japs ? - 6/13/2008 12:27:44 AM

1275psi

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Keep KB intact as the great threat, late 43 -thats the best thing for it in my opinion

Its the only thing that kept tabpub from running riot on me, when KB was finally lost in late 44 -well -now the dogs of war are well and truly off the leash............

(in reply to Historiker)

Post #: 45

RE: Decisive CV battle late 43 ideas for Japs ? - 6/13/2008 10:59:18 AM

Bogo Mil

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Historiker
@Bogo

Initiatuve is the key to victory. If he keeps his CVs away fron the front, tha allies have it...

Exactly. There are several places "away from the front" - east of Hawaii is one of them. 3000m below the waves is another one.

The best place for the KB is just behind the most important front lines. It should be far enough away to remain unspotted most of the time, but close enough to exploit enemy mistake. This compels him to support every move heavily, thus he can do fewer moves simultanously.

(in reply to Historiker)

Post #: 46

RE: Decisive CV battle late 43 ideas for Japs ? - 6/13/2008 11:17:26 AM

Historiker

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bogo Mil

quote:

ORIGINAL: Historiker
@Bogo

Initiatuve is the key to victory. If he keeps his CVs away fron the front, tha allies have it...

Exactly. There are several places "away from the front" - east of Hawaii is one of them. 3000m below the waves is another one.

The best place for the KB is just behind the most important front lines. It should be far enough away to remain unspotted most of the time, but close enough to exploit enemy mistake. This compels him to support every move heavily, thus he can do fewer moves simultanously.

Indeed

Taking the initiative doesn't mean to make totally foolish things and forcing the enemy to sink the KB.
Small surprising attacks into enemy territory at different places are more the right thing.
Japan always has a huge advantege: It is in the middle and can concentrate its forces easily. Moreover, it has the shortest way from one front to the other. This allows Japan to gain local superiority.

Look at the Siege of Neuss 1474/75 by Charles the Bold. The burgundian forces were totally superior. They had the world's most modern artillery, were decicivly bigger and were experienced. They also had enough supplies and very competent mineurs
Neuss istead was defend very weakly. Their walls weren't constructed to withstand artillery and were damaged that strong, that they were still repairing them 20 years after the siege.

Still, Neuss won. Why?
The Count of Hessen used the short ways inside the walls. Whereever the Burgundians attacked, he concentrated his forces.
Moreover, he made breakouts. This gave him the initiative. He let his forces attack and then flee. The Burgundian troops followed his troops and so came into the range of the Neuss artillery. When they retreated, the Neuss garrison attacked them with other forces from the sides.
This is risky, but it is worth it.

A small attack with 2-3 CVLs will force most allied player to hunt them. This can lure the enemy CVs into the range of strong G4M and Zero forces (with shortend ranges that the Bettys don't attack without cover). After they attacked and weakend the enemy CAP, the KB can attack them...

Risky, but worth it!

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RE: Decisive CV battle late 43 ideas for Japs ? - 6/14/2008 7:25:46 AM

Hornblower

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Keeping KB as a Threat force is your best bet, like the earlier posts state

(in reply to Historiker)

Post #: 48

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