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RE: THE THREAD!!! - 7/15/2009 1:04:23 PM

gladiatt

Posts: 2576
Joined: 4/10/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

quote:

ORIGINAL: gladiatt

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

There are a lot of alternative histories, and I like most of them (as I do SciFi). I particularly like Conroy. Turtledove is surley the most prolific.

I should write a novell where Jeanne d'Arc (Joan of Arc) isn't burn't by french clergy according to the will of the english power of XVe century !! That would be a nice alternative history

Would it? If you don't burn "the maid of Orleans", will France ever truly unify? Or will it continue as half French/half English?

More seriously: historians are trying to guess if it wasn't just something to make unity quicker than expected, but Joan was not the trigger of unity: she was the effect of the feeling rising in the country. At least, it's what's historian tell about this. Of course, French historian can not admit that we wouldn't have won in the long run....

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Post #: 27961

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 7/15/2009 1:06:42 PM

AW1Steve

Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: gladiatt

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dixie

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dixie

quote:

ORIGINAL: gladiatt

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dixie

It seems that the French aren't too happy with England's role in Joan of Arc's demise

Here

NNNNOOOO, not twice !!
Don't take it as an habbit

It is becoming a bit of a hobby for us

You lot need to be more Churchillian in your restraint. There were many jokes about DeGaulle fancying himself to be Joan reincarnated, and memebers of the joint chiefs who felt that Churchill needed to burn him at the stake "just in case".

De Gaulle was one of those people who just makes friends easily though

Of course, if nobody admit it in public, he had to make it know by himself

Shouldn't have tried so hard. Have you ever read his book, "The Army of the Future"? It's brilliant! He out Guderians Guderian, before Guderian ! ????

(in reply to gladiatt)

Post #: 27962

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 7/15/2009 1:07:06 PM

rtrapasso

Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Why is it that every army seems to have at least one brilliant blowhard?

i think they have loads of blowhards... maybe that there is only one brilliant one perhaps reflect the overall IQ of the organizations??

(in reply to AW1Steve)

Post #: 27963

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 7/15/2009 1:12:50 PM

gladiatt

Posts: 2576
Joined: 4/10/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

quote:

ORIGINAL: gladiatt

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dixie

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dixie

quote:

ORIGINAL: gladiatt

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dixie

It seems that the French aren't too happy with England's role in Joan of Arc's demise

Here

NNNNOOOO, not twice !!
Don't take it as an habbit

It is becoming a bit of a hobby for us

You lot need to be more Churchillian in your restraint. There were many jokes about DeGaulle fancying himself to be Joan reincarnated, and memebers of the joint chiefs who felt that Churchill needed to burn him at the stake "just in case".

De Gaulle was one of those people who just makes friends easily though

Of course, if nobody admit it in public, he had to make it know by himself

Shouldn't have tried so hard. Have you ever read his book, "The Army of the Future"? It's brilliant! He out Guderians Guderian, before Guderian ! ????

Guderian, IIRC , had read De Gaulle. The political power in Germany heard Guderian; the political power in France didn't heard De Gaulle........

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Post #: 27964

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 7/15/2009 1:14:57 PM

AW1Steve

Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Why is it that every army seems to have at least one brilliant blowhard?

i think they have loads of blowhards... maybe that there is only one brilliant one perhaps reflect the overall IQ of the organizations??

Perhaps, there doesn't seem to be any way to test or quatify that. But you had Degalle for the French,Patton for the US and Montgomery for the US. Many would add MacAurthr, but I found him to be only occassionally brilliant . Each of these men seemed to do a better job planning then their peers, then spend an inordinate amount of time and effort in proclaiming their brilliance. I suppose if they didn't scream how smart they were, then no one would have noticed , and we would simply have 3 (or4) more competant generals that no one ever noticed or made movies about.

(in reply to rtrapasso)

Post #: 27965

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 7/15/2009 1:19:45 PM

AW1Steve

Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: gladiatt

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

quote:

ORIGINAL: gladiatt

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dixie

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dixie

quote:

ORIGINAL: gladiatt

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dixie

It seems that the French aren't too happy with England's role in Joan of Arc's demise

Here

NNNNOOOO, not twice !!
Don't take it as an habbit

It is becoming a bit of a hobby for us

You lot need to be more Churchillian in your restraint. There were many jokes about DeGaulle fancying himself to be Joan reincarnated, and memebers of the joint chiefs who felt that Churchill needed to burn him at the stake "just in case".

De Gaulle was one of those people who just makes friends easily though

Of course, if nobody admit it in public, he had to make it know by himself

Shouldn't have tried so hard. Have you ever read his book, "The Army of the Future"? It's brilliant! He out Guderians Guderian, before Guderian ! ????

Guderian, IIRC , had read De Gaulle. The political power in Germany heard Guderian; the political power in France didn't heard De Gaulle........

Oh , I think both the French political and military leaders HEARD De Gualle (one would have to be deaf not to) , but it didn't suit their situation , and De Gaulle did a poor job selling his position , while doing a great job alienating it. I've heard that De Gualle was the most "despised colonel" in the French army when he taught at staff colledge. Even peole sympathetic to his views were alienated by his words.

Only after the start of the war, when he was appointed to a political position (while still serving) did people start to listen to him.

(in reply to gladiatt)

Post #: 27966

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 7/15/2009 1:22:41 PM

AW1Steve

Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: gladiatt

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

quote:

ORIGINAL: gladiatt

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

There are a lot of alternative histories, and I like most of them (as I do SciFi). I particularly like Conroy. Turtledove is surley the most prolific.

I should write a novell where Jeanne d'Arc (Joan of Arc) isn't burn't by french clergy according to the will of the english power of XVe century !! That would be a nice alternative history

Would it? If you don't burn "the maid of Orleans", will France ever truly unify? Or will it continue as half French/half English?

More seriously: historians are trying to guess if it wasn't just something to make unity quicker than expected, but Joan was not the trigger of unity: she was the effect of the feeling rising in the country. At least, it's what's historian tell about this. Of course, French historian can not admit that we wouldn't have won in the long run....

In some respects , I think that they are right. But every explosion needs a trigger. For example WW1 probably would have still happened if Arch Duke Ferdianand had taken a different road that day, but the outcome may have been different. That's stuff for Harry Turtledove to contemplate.

(in reply to gladiatt)

Post #: 27967

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 7/15/2009 1:25:55 PM

Terminus

Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline

Nearly time to go home tithe...

_____________________________

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Post #: 27968

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 7/15/2009 1:26:41 PM

gladiatt

Posts: 2576
Joined: 4/10/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Oh , I think both the French political and military leaders HEARD De Gualle (one would have to be deaf not to) , but it didn't suit their situation , and De Gaulle did a poor job selling his position , while doing a great job alienating it. I've heard that De Gualle was the most "despised colonel" in the French army when he taught at staff colledge. Even peole sympathetic to his views were alienated by his words.

Only after the start of the war, when he was appointed to a political position (while still serving) did people start to listen to him.

i've got nothing more to add: at first i was trying to summarize, but you know much more than i thought....

_____________________________

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Post #: 27969

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 7/15/2009 1:29:16 PM

gladiatt

Posts: 2576
Joined: 4/10/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

quote:

ORIGINAL: gladiatt

More seriously: historians are trying to guess if it wasn't just something to make unity quicker than expected, but Joan was not the trigger of unity: she was the effect of the feeling rising in the country. At least, it's what's historian tell about this. Of course, French historian can not admit that we wouldn't have won in the long run....

In some respects , I think that they are right. But every explosion needs a trigger. For example WW1 probably would have still happened if Arch Duke Ferdianand had taken a different road that day, but the outcome may have been different. That's stuff for Harry Turtledove to contemplate.

What i think about alternative history: suppose Martin-Dixie and Eric-Gladiatt road cross during hundred year war....at first we look each others as the dreaded ennemy...than, take a good breathe, and go and share a drink (Martin is a silly boy, but with much humor, wich is something i like).

_____________________________

(in reply to AW1Steve)

Post #: 27970

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 7/15/2009 1:33:00 PM

Dixie

Posts: 10303
Joined: 3/10/2006
From: UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: gladiatt

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

quote:

ORIGINAL: gladiatt

More seriously: historians are trying to guess if it wasn't just something to make unity quicker than expected, but Joan was not the trigger of unity: she was the effect of the feeling rising in the country. At least, it's what's historian tell about this. Of course, French historian can not admit that we wouldn't have won in the long run....

In some respects , I think that they are right. But every explosion needs a trigger. For example WW1 probably would have still happened if Arch Duke Ferdianand had taken a different road that day, but the outcome may have been different. That's stuff for Harry Turtledove to contemplate.

What i think about alternative history: suppose Martin-Dixie and Eric-Gladiatt road cross during hundred year war....at first we look each others as the dreaded ennemy...than, take a good breathe, and go and share a drink (Martin is a silly boy, but with much humor, wich is something i like).

_____________________________

Bigger boys stole my sig

(in reply to gladiatt)

Post #: 27971

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 7/15/2009 1:38:57 PM

Dixie

Posts: 10303
Joined: 3/10/2006
From: UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

In some respects , I think that they are right. But every explosion needs a trigger. For example WW1 probably would have still happened if Arch Duke Ferdianand had taken a different road that day, but the outcome may have been different. That's stuff for Harry Turtledove to contemplate.

Oooh. Alt history, the third biggest cause of "u r retarded" posts on the 'net

After Nation X was overrated and the Bismark was sunk

_____________________________

Bigger boys stole my sig

(in reply to AW1Steve)

Post #: 27972

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 7/15/2009 1:39:33 PM

Dixie

Posts: 10303
Joined: 3/10/2006
From: UK
Status: offline

_____________________________

Bigger boys stole my sig

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Post #: 27973

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 7/15/2009 1:40:51 PM

AW1Steve

Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: gladiatt

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Oh , I think both the French political and military leaders HEARD De Gualle (one would have to be deaf not to) , but it didn't suit their situation , and De Gaulle did a poor job selling his position , while doing a great job alienating it. I've heard that De Gualle was the most "despised colonel" in the French army when he taught at staff colledge. Even peole sympathetic to his views were alienated by his words.

Only after the start of the war, when he was appointed to a political position (while still serving) did people start to listen to him.

i've got nothing more to add: at first i was trying to summarize, but you know much more than i thought....

Well, I've got to confess that I've always been facinated/confued by DeGualle. I'd always felt that he was a totally useless blowhard till I finally found and read his book. (It's hard as my French is pathetic, and translations of his writings can be hard to come by--and I am always dubious of translations). I now tend to feel that he was brilliant, but really should have read Dale Carnegie ("Winning Friends and Influencing People"). The Fact that he achived such high position and power in spite of having such a less then pleasant personality says a lot about him.

Why is it that so many "disciples" of military strategy and doctrines manage to torpedo their own "crusades" by having lousey personalities? Arnold actually carried out many of Mitchell's plans by a warm smile and friendly personality. Moffet (till his death in Akron) did the same for the USN. Guderian did better then De Gualle in "selling" the "combined arms' and tank lead approach. And both did better in advancing armor then JFC Fuller (for the UK).

Patton ,Esienhower, and Marshall all used charm to get their theories through (it was only in the field that Patton "went off his nut"). DeGualle, Fuller,Mitchell,John Towers,and Dohet all used the "foreign tourist approach" ("If they don't understand you, yell louder!") to convincing others. How would the military world have developed if the "great thinkers" had also been "great communicators"?

(in reply to gladiatt)

Post #: 27974

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 7/15/2009 1:43:27 PM

AW1Steve

Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dixie

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

In some respects , I think that they are right. But every explosion needs a trigger. For example WW1 probably would have still happened if Arch Duke Ferdianand had taken a different road that day, but the outcome may have been different. That's stuff for Harry Turtledove to contemplate.

Oooh. Alt history, the third biggest cause of "u r retarded" posts on the 'net After Nation X was overrated and the Bismark was sunk

Touche'! Time for me to scamper off before I inadvertadly manage to ignite a flame war on the Thread, and change history! Good day/evening gents! Try not to slag me too hard in my abscence!

(in reply to Dixie)

Post #: 27975

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 7/15/2009 1:44:22 PM

AW1Steve

Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline

Damned! I didn't even realize that I went over 5k! Talk about not paying attention!

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Post #: 27976

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 7/15/2009 1:48:10 PM

AW1Steve

Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: gladiatt

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

quote:

ORIGINAL: gladiatt

More seriously: historians are trying to guess if it wasn't just something to make unity quicker than expected, but Joan was not the trigger of unity: she was the effect of the feeling rising in the country. At least, it's what's historian tell about this. Of course, French historian can not admit that we wouldn't have won in the long run....

In some respects , I think that they are right. But every explosion needs a trigger. For example WW1 probably would have still happened if Arch Duke Ferdianand had taken a different road that day, but the outcome may have been different. That's stuff for Harry Turtledove to contemplate.

What i think about alternative history: suppose Martin-Dixie and Eric-Gladiatt road cross during hundred year war....at first we look each others as the dreaded ennemy...than, take a good breathe, and go and share a drink (Martin is a silly boy, but with much humor, wich is something i like).

Which leads me to a great moment of personal confusion---were I also there , at which side would I throw rocks? Which side of me would dominate? The Norman side? Or my Anglo side? Or would I simply kill myself?

(in reply to gladiatt)

Post #: 27977

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 7/15/2009 1:53:47 PM

gladiatt

Posts: 2576
Joined: 4/10/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

quote:

ORIGINAL: gladiatt

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

quote:

ORIGINAL: gladiatt

More seriously: historians are trying to guess if it wasn't just something to make unity quicker than expected, but Joan was not the trigger of unity: she was the effect of the feeling rising in the country. At least, it's what's historian tell about this. Of course, French historian can not admit that we wouldn't have won in the long run....

In some respects , I think that they are right. But every explosion needs a trigger. For example WW1 probably would have still happened if Arch Duke Ferdianand had taken a different road that day, but the outcome may have been different. That's stuff for Harry Turtledove to contemplate.

What i think about alternative history: suppose Martin-Dixie and Eric-Gladiatt road cross during hundred year war....at first we look each others as the dreaded ennemy...than, take a good breathe, and go and share a drink (Martin is a silly boy, but with much humor, wich is something i like).

Which leads me to a great moment of personal confusion---were I also there , at which side would I throw rocks? Which side of me would dominate? The Norman side? Or my Anglo side? Or would I simply kill myself?

You should have wait to know wich side would dominate: time enough for Martin and I to decide to go to drink....than you would have come along !

_____________________________

(in reply to AW1Steve)

Post #: 27978

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 7/15/2009 1:56:52 PM

Dixie

Posts: 10303
Joined: 3/10/2006
From: UK
Status: offline

Time for some Civ IV

_____________________________

Bigger boys stole my sig

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Post #: 27979

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 7/15/2009 2:03:11 PM

Apollo11

Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline

Hi all,

Oh my... I am hot here (at the forum ) for few hours and another 100 year war between England and France starts once more...

Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________

Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Dixie)

Post #: 27980

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 7/15/2009 2:22:42 PM

gladiatt

Posts: 2576
Joined: 4/10/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

Oh my... I am hot here (at the forum ) for few hours and another 100 year war between England and France starts once more...

Leo "Apollo11"

It never really ended

_____________________________

(in reply to Apollo11)

Post #: 27981

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 7/15/2009 2:36:25 PM

Apollo11

Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: gladiatt

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Oh my... I am hot here (at the forum ) for few hours and another 100 year war between England and France starts once more...

It never really ended

Somehow I suspeced that Eric...

Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________

Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to gladiatt)

Post #: 27982

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 7/15/2009 2:41:50 PM

Mynok

Posts: 12108
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: gladiatt
english part; french part; burgundy part.
I would still leave in the french part....

Does Burgundy still think of themselves independently?

_____________________________

"Measure civilization by the ability of citizens to mock government with impunity" -- Unknown

(in reply to gladiatt)

Post #: 27983

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 7/15/2009 2:50:19 PM

Nikademus

Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline

tithe

_____________________________

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Post #: 27984

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 7/15/2009 2:52:49 PM

Mynok

Posts: 12108
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline

Uh oh....been going to the doctor again? We warned you about that.

_____________________________

"Measure civilization by the ability of citizens to mock government with impunity" -- Unknown

(in reply to Nikademus)

Post #: 27985

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 7/15/2009 2:59:10 PM

gladiatt

Posts: 2576
Joined: 4/10/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

quote:

ORIGINAL: gladiatt
english part; french part; burgundy part.
I would still leave in the french part....

Does Burgundy still think of themselves independently?

Burgundy never had an national feeling. It was a state made around personnal feuds of great Dukes (the last one being Charles the t�meraire, died 1476). The state was cut between many pretenders (french, austrian, spanish), and each part entered another country. If you ask now someone living in a burgundian part, i think he won't even know that it previously was a independant country; although for the french part of it.

< Message edited by gladiatt -- 7/15/2009 3:05:54 PM >

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Post #: 27986

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 7/15/2009 3:04:07 PM

gladiatt

Posts: 2576
Joined: 4/10/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: gladiatt

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Oh my... I am hot here (at the forum ) for few hours and another 100 year war between England and France starts once more...

It never really ended

Somehow I suspected that Eric...

Leo "Apollo11"

i like to hate them...i'm sure the reverse is true !

When i went to Scotland, there was a B&B which was hosted by an englishmen. In the entrance of his house was a paint board of Agincourt. Whyle laughing, i said to the man "it's not very pleasant for the Frenc" and with much humor he replied "it is not intended to !". He was very kind, take good care of us, show us a little tiny road leading upper of Eilan Donan Castle, and gave us an adress in Sky island. And i surely can understand someone can be proud of a victory.
In fact, it's all about a childish game of "wich one is the stronger" but if i feel it's silly, i stop it quick because what i really matter about is the man i'm talking to.

_____________________________

(in reply to Apollo11)

Post #: 27987

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 7/15/2009 3:06:36 PM

Mynok

Posts: 12108
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline

It's easy to be proud of a victory when you aren't standing on the field looking at the carnage.

_____________________________

"Measure civilization by the ability of citizens to mock government with impunity" -- Unknown

(in reply to gladiatt)

Post #: 27988

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 7/15/2009 3:10:58 PM

gladiatt

Posts: 2576
Joined: 4/10/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

It's easy to be proud of a victory when you aren't standing on the field looking at the carnage.

I absolutely agree with you.
When i was a child, i dreamed of being the hero of a great battle.
Growing older, i just feel i would be scared, sick, trying to hide. And if not on the battlefield, thinking that killing someone else because it's uniform or language is different is probably not enough for a reason.

_____________________________

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Post #: 27989

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 7/15/2009 3:17:09 PM

Nikademus

Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

Uh oh....been going to the doctor again? We warned you about that.

_____________________________

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Post #: 27990

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