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Master Chief Cid please help .. if possible

 
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Master Chief Cid please help .. if possible - 6/30/2008 12:43:33 PM   
n01487477


Posts: 4779
Joined: 2/21/2006
Status: offline 		Cid,
thought I'd give you a Military sounding title .. no offence intended ...

I'm playing Empires Ablaze 1.3, which uses the RHS Lvl 6 map... Soviets Active.
I've asked others in other forum areas but Michael (ny59giants) suggested I come to you ...

The problem is that my planes are not flying from Kwantang/Japan to Soviet territory. I have had them attack Vladivostok, Suchan and Sovetskaya Gavan ... but that is the extent of what I can do.

Forum users said that hex 65,32, needs to be activated, this hex is actually in Kwantang and has troops stationed there from turn 1. I decided to walk troops through all hexes close by, in a game V AI and I still get nothing.

Bogo Mil and Castor Troy say that this might be a bug, as PzB had a similar problem ... Is this true or is there anyway to get around it ?

I was thinking of doing a fresh install, as I ran the same scenario V AI and am having similar problems.

Is this a known issue, a phex.dat problem ... or just dumb bad luck ?

Thanks in advance


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Post #: 1
RE: Master Chief Cid please help .. if possible - 6/30/2008 2:45:34 PM   
Nemesis III

 

Posts: 14
Joined: 2/5/2007
Status: offline 		Hi n01487477

Please check my latest post maybe it will the answer to this problem. here is the direct link. Unable to launch air strikes against soviets

< Message edited by Nemesis III -- 6/30/2008 2:56:31 PM >

(in reply to n01487477)
Post #: 2
RE: Master Chief Cid please help .. if possible - 7/1/2008 3:46:29 AM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: n01487477

Cid,
thought I'd give you a Military sounding title .. no offence intended ...




I did serve as a US Navy petty officer - so I regard Master Chief as high praise -
in USN we regard master chief's higher than officers

so the fact I eventually became an officer (although with army type rank) does not
change things -

it isn't offensive - but it is dangerous - because people might think I claimed that rank
and this is neither ethical nor legal

hence the disclaimer

(in reply to n01487477)
Post #: 3
RE: Master Chief Cid please help .. if possible - 7/1/2008 3:52:11 AM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: n01487477

I'm playing Empires Ablaze 1.3, which uses the RHS Lvl 6 map... Soviets Active.
I've asked others in other forum areas but Michael (ny59giants) suggested I come to you ...

The problem is that my planes are not flying from Kwantang/Japan to Soviet territory. I have had them attack Vladivostok, Suchan and Sovetskaya Gavan ... but that is the extent of what I can do.

Forum users said that hex 65,32, needs to be activated, this hex is actually in Kwantang and has troops stationed there from turn 1. I decided to walk troops through all hexes close by, in a game V AI and I still get nothing.

Thanks in advance



ONLY in a Russian PASSIVE scenario does any hex need to be activated. Also, programmers say we don't know what hexes - but they always use the plural - so I am skeptical about 65,32 - but I do think this was once officially stated in the manual or in a post by Mike Wood - so it isn't exactly a rumor. Regardless - it ONLY applies in scenaios where Russia is not at war - so this is not the issue.

I was just attacked by Polynic - and so Japan can fly INTO Manchukuo. I have submitted a turn with three attacks in three directions to be sure I can attack out of it. I have run a micro war out of Manchukuo into Mongolia - air strike wise - and clearly both Russia and Japan can attack in the Tomsag area. But now the war has migrated East - into Soviet and Japanese territory proper. I suspect it works fine.

My guess is you ran into a date / hard code issue. It is possible you cannot attack on turn one - or in 1941. I also don't think you SHOULD be attacking - but that is a different matter. Still - IF the problem is just the date - I don't think we need to fix it.


(in reply to n01487477)
Post #: 4
RE: Master Chief Cid please help .. if possible - 7/1/2008 3:55:46 AM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: n01487477


I was thinking of doing a fresh install, as I ran the same scenario V AI and am having similar problems.

Is this a known issue, a phex.dat problem ... or just dumb bad luck ?

Thanks in advance



This is not related to pwhex.dat

It is related to the engine

The engine might be busted - and a fresh install would fix that

It might be the way the engine works - then we cannot fix it - but we can report it as a bug to Matrix. There IS one more update for WITP - so there is a tiny chance something might be fixed if it were identified and if it was regarded as a priority.

There is a minicule chance it is a cam file corruption -

so recopy from source the cam file for your scenario

and compare with other RHS scenarios - can you do this in ANY of them?

Use Level 6 files and the map will not need to be changed


(in reply to n01487477)
Post #: 5
RE: Master Chief Cid please help .. if possible - 7/4/2008 2:13:07 PM   
n01487477


Posts: 4779
Joined: 2/21/2006
Status: offline 		OK a small update to reveal my findings, so far ...

THIS IS USING Empires Ablaze (Soviets Active)

  • I reinstalled everything, ran the PBEM turn and some subsequent ones and Air combat for the Japanese is disabled over Soviet territory.
  • I ran a game V's AI until Jan, then I tried some Air combat ... zilch
  • I recreated the scenario, with Soviets inactive, then activated them on the 9/Dec when my troops invaded ... set some LB ... and hey presto ... it works! 3 Different LB from different locations attacked!

    So, having a scenario with Soviets active from the beginning, is fraught with problems...

    This is only the beginning of my tests ... and I'm sure other RHS users, with Soviets active from the start probably will disagree ... but I will do some other things and update ...






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    (in reply to el cid again)
    • Post #: 6
    RE: Master Chief Cid please help .. if possible - 7/4/2008 3:41:52 PM   
    ny59giants


    Posts: 9869
    Joined: 1/10/2005
    Status: offline
    quote:

    I recreated the scenario, with Soviets inactive, then activated them on the 9/Dec when my troops invaded ... set some LB ... and hey presto ... it works! 3 Different LB from different locations attacked!


    WOW!!

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    Post #: 7
    RE: Master Chief Cid please help .. if possible - 7/5/2008 9:50:35 AM   
    el cid again

     

    Posts: 16922
    Joined: 10/10/2005
    Status: offline
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: ny59giants

    quote:

    I recreated the scenario, with Soviets inactive, then activated them on the 9/Dec when my troops invaded ... set some LB ... and hey presto ... it works! 3 Different LB from different locations attacked!


    WOW!!


    This is not an RHS issue. Try to understand - the way code works is a WITP wide issue - unrelated to a mod.

    Soviets inactive is not recommended by me because THAT is "frought with problems" - wholly outrageous and unreasonable problems.
    The Japanese can start the war any time they want to - but the Allies cannot. The Russians are frozen in every sense - inaccessable - unable to move - unable to set air missions - unable to feed points that must be fed by ships - unable to export resoruces from points that must do that by ship - unable to build fortifications - and in RHS - unable to control when factories start ramping up plane production. None of this makes the slightest sense to me.

    The game editor allows a modder to use active or passive soviets - if it does not work - that is a code issue and should be fixed. It would still be a problem in AE. Why give us an option that is busted? I am sure that was not the intention - even if it is true.

    A more germane question is - why do you WANT to start a war in 1941? This makes no strategic sense for either side - which is why no one did - and everyone was moderately confident the other guy would not. I am much more interested in what happens in later years? IF you think Japan starting a war in 1941 is reasonable, then it is also reasonable the Russians might make a pre emptive attack - or attempt it and end up with a simultaneous attack. That would seem to dictate your view would require active Russians - unless you see them as entirely passive targets. Certainly the Russians would not see themselves that way.

    I have no clue why you went down this road? But it IS a good thing you did - IF there is a problem - it needs to be pinned down - and written up in the bug reports thread. I have a turn pending processing in which I have done some testing - and if I can verify your findings - I will do so. But I am skeptical this issue exists and went undetected and unreported. Matrix should have cought it before version 1.0 - and it is amazing if they did not.



    < Message edited by el cid again -- 7/5/2008 9:56:23 AM >

    (in reply to ny59giants)
    Post #: 8
    RE: Master Chief Cid please help .. if possible - 7/5/2008 10:42:10 AM   
    n01487477


    Posts: 4779
    Joined: 2/21/2006
    Status: offline     		Cid,
    I have only tested this twice, but on both occasions I have had identical results ... I am in no way implying that it is a mod issue ... this, I think is solely a coding issue.

    The points you make about having Soviets Active before war escalates are all valid, and this should have been modelled better from the beginning, instead of as it is...

    However, the problem as I see it, is that when the Japanese trip the hex points, when the Soviets are already active, the Witp code ignores the "trip"(65,32) and does not free Japanese planes to fly and attack over Soviet territory (those bases which are soviet not french eg. inland bases such as Iman/kharbarovsk etc).

    This is the source of the problem as I see it... as I can read the Savefile (WitpTracker developer ), I can see some of the dynamics behind this and believe that the error should be logged or at least looked at. As I didn't test RHS/CHS, my information could be completely wrong regarding them or other ongoing games, but as I said, I think this is a code problem NOT a mod.

    As to your last question ... I don't know if you have looked at Empires Ablaze, and absolutely no offence to Nemo, but it is a "fantasy" mod ... (In hindsight, I probably would not do the same Soviet strategy again)

    But my reasons for attacking from Day 1, although they were not well thought out, and have no relevance to history, are because of economic and strategic considerations. Nemo's mod is tight on Japanese economics. HI is sparse ... & I saw HI/Oil/Res close by and with the HR allowing Michael to attack pretty quickly, I decided to make a pre-emptive strike. If I wanted a historical game I'd do another mod, but there should be no reason except, "why the hell not", that I shouldn't be able to play this foolhardy strategy, with all "the bells and whistles", but which in the long run is going to destroy me quicker, maybe.


    Lastly I see that you write up and have economic spreadsheets- have you tested WitpTracker with RHS? Some people say that is works but I haven't done extensive testing here ... (new version out soon)

    Thanks for your input, I will continue to look at it as I'm sure you will too ... AE must be free of this problem, if it is in fact a code problem, as I believe.



    < Message edited by n01487477 -- 7/5/2008 10:44:50 AM >

    _____________________________

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    EconDoc
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    (in reply to el cid again)
    Post #: 9
    RE: Master Chief Cid please help .. if possible - 7/5/2008 11:06:41 AM   
    el cid again

     

    Posts: 16922
    Joined: 10/10/2005
    Status: offline     		To begin at the end, AE will have the same problem - using the same code except where it has been revised.
    That is good in the sense it means they may not want to ignore the matter - if it is a verifiable problem.

    As for AE - it is more or less RHSEOS Level 6 with changes Nemo wanted that I was unwilling to make. Perhaps the most visible
    difference is the Me-264 - which I developed in leiu of the G5N series - and which at one point was the standard bomber in RHSEOS
    family scenarios. When Nemo had some techincal issues with this - I developed up engined versions of the G5N which probably would have worked very well (I did that sort of thing for real at Boeing - planes now work up on computers before metal is cut) - and in the end Forum people thought these were more likely to be done than putting the Me into production. So in the end we did away with the Me - but AE still uses it. Anyway - it may be said that EOS family scenarios are significant departures from history - but my dedication to keeping them within the limits of reasonably possible history ran afoul of Nemo's "I want to do it because I want to do it" - which of course is perfectly reasonable in a game for fun. So we separated the scenarios - but AE is considered to be a member of the RHS family (supported by Nemo rather than by me and others on the RHS team who do support) and it can be found on the RHS site. From time to time I advise Nemo of technical issues or enhancements he might want to implement. And in a case like yours - I think about a solution - more or less because it is family business.




    < Message edited by el cid again -- 7/5/2008 11:13:15 AM >

    (in reply to n01487477)
    Post #: 10
    RE: Master Chief Cid please help .. if possible - 7/5/2008 11:19:54 AM   
    el cid again

     

    Posts: 16922
    Joined: 10/10/2005
    Status: offline     		ORIGINAL: el cid again

    To begin at the end, AE will have the same problem - using the same code except where it has been revised.
    That is good in the sense it means they may not want to ignore the matter - if it is a verifiable problem.

    As for AE - it is more or less RHSEOS Level 6 with changes Nemo wanted that I was unwilling to make. Perhaps the most visible
    difference is the Me-264 - which I developed in leiu of the G5N series - and which at one point was the standard bomber in RHSEOS
    family scenarios. When Nemo had some techincal issues with this - I developed up engined versions of the G5N which probably would have worked very well (I did that sort of thing for real at Boeing - planes now work up on computers before metal is cut) - and in the end Forum people thought these were more likely to be done than putting the Me into production. So in the end we did away with the Me - but AE still uses it. Anyway - it may be said that EOS family scenarios are significant departures from history - but my dedication to keeping them within the limits of reasonably possible history ran afoul of Nemo's "I want to do it because I want to do it" - which of course is perfectly reasonable in a game for fun. So we separated the scenarios - but AE is considered to be a member of the RHS family (supported by Nemo rather than by me and others on the RHS team who do support) and it can be found on the RHS site. From time to time I advise Nemo of technical issues or enhancements he might want to implement. And in a case like yours - I think about a solution - more or less because it is family business.

    Witptracker should work. Most utilities for WITP work with RHS - but don't believe error checkers - think about what they report. I break the rules they depend on for cause sometimes. I don't use these things because I have other tools - and because this is a complex undocumented program impossible to understand in a reasonably timely way even if you look at it at source. It is close to a nightmare - compared to how software should be written and documented - and we more or less agree not to look at it as a condition of our user's licence. Also - I get just in time technical support from Matrix on request - so there is not much need to look at anything - once it is clearly defined.

    I find it incredible that this issue might exit at this date. But no part of the data I have looked at was close to right. It was a messy system - compounded by lack of documentation and total lack of testing in the sense that would apply to a program done on for DOD - and way too many cooks over time with a hand in the pie - almost none of them privy to what came before or what would come after. So - it is possible you are right - and that is a big problem if RHS players go to war with Russia.

    I also suspect after a certain date it won't be an issue. It is just a suspicion. And I will know in a couple of days.



    < Message edited by el cid again -- 7/5/2008 11:23:57 AM >

    (in reply to el cid again)
    Post #: 11
    RE: Master Chief Cid please help .. if possible - 7/5/2008 12:12:41 PM   
    Nemo121


    Posts: 5821
    Joined: 2/6/2004
    Status: offline     		I'll go into more detail later ( I have to go out ) BUT I will say that I find el cid's latest response to be at major variance with reality. Normally I let his narcissistic "I am responsible for everything and have helped everyone with everything all the time" ( an over-generalisation I admit but you get the idea ) responses go but this response is so at odds with reality that it is going to lead people to take his answers at face value when he really is completely out of date with EA and so far out of the loop that his answers shouldn't be sought.

    1. It is EA not AE.

    2. I haven't spoken with el cid about even the slightest detail of the mod for about a year and the last time I discussed anything technical in it with him was about 18 months ago.

    3. EA is considered a member of the RHS family by el cid but it diverged about 2.5 years ago and is now so utterly different than RHS that to consider it as such is more a sop to ego than something based in reality.

    4. Yes, it is hosted on the ALTERNATE HISTORY SCENARIO site but that is due to an agreement I and the site owner came to and doesn't involve el cid... and never did - although he did provide some advice with uploading problems about 2 years ago.

    5. "We" never separated any scenarios. Yeah, when I was getting started with modding you gave advice about a lot of stuff and I used RHS as it was about 2.5 years ago as a basis for this BUT you were never a party to any decisions about where this mod would go etc except insofar as I listened to anyone who I thought had something interesting to say about planes to use, mods to ships etc. I really think that you narcissistically paint yourself to be a much larger player in events than you actually are/were and this detracts a LOT from the great work you actually have done. This thing of claiming a larger portion of work done by others than your contribution warrants lessens you to an extent far below what your actual contribution ( less than you claim but more than most ) warrants. This is a pity.

    6. As to this "support" from others on the RHS team. Nope, I don't get any. I have a side-agreement the WiTP Alternate Scenario website to host EA BUT that agreement was made with NO reference to, discussion with OR input from you. I don't get ANY support from YOU or the RHS team and haven't, to the best of my recollection, had any discussion with you about anything in the mod for at least a year. You really are being utterly narcissistic here and claiming a share in work that simply isn't yours. This is incredibly bad form on your part but, sadly, not the first time it has happened.


    As to the most visible difference. The Ki-264 is a piffling trifle. The biggest difference is the fact that the Japanese war economy works completely differently in RHS than it does in EA. To point to the Ki-264 shows just how utterly out of date with the reality of EA you are.


    Thats enough for now. I am fine with people asking el cid for advice with EA ( although he is so out of date that I think this advice is not usually going to be useful - and is usually filtered through the prism of narcissism - but out of respect for the person asking the question I will be quiet if they specifically address the question to him )  but when he tries to appropriate what others have done and distort history I have a problem with it and will speak out.

    < Message edited by Nemo121 -- 7/5/2008 12:14:50 PM >

    (in reply to el cid again)
    Post #: 12
    RE: Master Chief Cid please help .. if possible - 7/5/2008 11:28:55 PM   
    el cid again

     

    Posts: 16922
    Joined: 10/10/2005
    Status: offline     		It is perfectly true that Empires Ablaze should be abbreviated EA - perhaps I should not write instead of sleeping?

    The dates Nemo gives are substantially correct - and it is possible memories are dim over such periods. He has, however, forgotten some exchanges of data in 2007 - which is fine: possibly he found nothing worth using or worth the trouble to retrofit because of the time it would take to do so.

    By technical support - I mean that some of us answer questions posted on the board - particularly if Nemo is for some reason not immediately available. I didn't mean he asked for help - but players do - and we don't let them hang if we notice.

    Alternate history is a matter of taste - and there is no 'wrong' way to do it - and I don't wish to be seen as being critical of Nemo.

    I am not sure what he means by the Alternative site - but if it is the RHS site - he asked for - and got - permission to use it. Since I am not the site manager - I put him in contact. If it does not mean that - then it is also on our site. Either way - he seems to be trying to pick a fight or be critical - for no reason. I am not interested in arguing.

    Narcicissm is probably more in Nemo's area of expertise than in mine - I have only a dim sense that he is misunderstanding my genuinely helpful attitude and calling it something else. But I didn't spend decades doing what Nemo does - and I don't really know what the term means anyway - so he might be bang on.

    < Message edited by el cid again -- 7/5/2008 11:30:39 PM >

    (in reply to Nemo121)
    Post #: 13
    RE: Master Chief Cid please help .. if possible - 7/10/2008 2:23:34 AM   
    ChickenOfTheSea


    Posts: 579
    Joined: 6/7/2008
    From: Virginia
    Status: offline     		place in wrong thread, moved

    < Message edited by ChickenOfTheSea -- 7/10/2008 2:25:33 AM >

    (in reply to el cid again)
    Post #: 14
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