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Tutorial 7 Questions - 7/27/2008 6:28:45 AM

tpope

Posts: 30
Joined: 7/24/2008
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So far Tutorial 7 has been going pretty well, but I'm finding a few odd behaviors that I can't quite figure out.

1) When my AC are on AAW PAtrol missions, why do they (sometimes) use afterburner both to transit to the patrol zone and to identify contacts. I though that was usually reserved just for comat situations. I've seen it happen twice. Once an F14 was on afterburner moving from the carrier to the patrol zone, and around the same time the other F14 was using afterburner to get a closer look at an unidentified contact.

2) Do ASW missions automaticaly create a sub threat nav zone based around those reference points? If so, why don't AAW and ASuW missions appear to do the same thing?

3) I noticed a cool thing about my strike mission and a related annoying thing about another AAW mission I plotted. I was very pleased to see the strike mission planes all go together even though I forogto and didnt' uncheck 1/3 rule. I was even more pleased to see them wait unti lall were launched and then fly in formation the whole way. I was less pleased to see a pair of the 6 F18s I had assigned to a Deep AAW Patrol mission also group. If I had assigned them separately in two groups of three (in the same "edit mission action), would they have then split up and taken separate stations in the patrol zone? Interestingly, they ungroup when the mission is over. In fact, one of the two of my AAW planes ungrouped first when it reached bingo fuel, leaving the other one in a "group" of one.

4) I had my P3 Orion originally on the Ship Recon mission. At some point it (or another plane) managed to identify one of the surface contacts as hostile. I made a ship strike mission, assigned originally the Frigate, but then later decided to add the P3 as well. So far so good, it intercepted, launched Harpoons and then was out of ammo so it headed home. the problem I'm having now is that I can't seem to STOP it from heading home. It's got fuel left, I'd like it to resume the other mission, but it doesn't seem to do that. I can plot nav points manually, and it will follow them, and then resume its "return to base" mission. Is there any way for me to assign it back to the recon mission?

5) Moving to the ASW missions next. The sub, helicopters and S3s are all searchign in different ways on different missions, and nothing has turned up so far. However, I do find myself annoyed once again by the big honkin crosses all over the map. I'd very much like to have the water depth markers not be so huge. Is there a setting somewhere to adjust their display size?

6) Another oddity with ASW is that I can make whatever window settings I like with sonobuoys, and I always seem to see the ones I drop manually. Only the ones dropped automatically are hidden if I uncheck that box. Is this a bug, or am I doing something wrong?

All told, this went a lot better than the last tutorial. I'm still confused on some points (hence the email) but overall I was pretty happy how things worked out.

Post #: 1

Harpoon - 7/27/2008 8:20:52 AM

hermanhum

Posts: 2209
Joined: 9/21/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tpope
1) When my AC are on AAW PAtrol missions, why do they (sometimes) use afterburner both to transit to the patrol zone and to identify contacts. I though that was usually reserved just for comat situations. I've seen it happen twice. Once an F14 was on afterburner moving from the carrier to the patrol zone, and around the same time the other F14 was using afterburner to get a closer look at an unidentified contact.

You need to understand that once you place a unit on ANY mission except manual (Plotted), you are basically handing control over to the AI. The AI will pretty much decide what speed it will use, when to activate sensors, what altitude/depth it will travel, when it will fire, etc. You have virtually no control. I agree that a unit should probably not use afterburner when simply traveling to its patrol area. Someone told me that the Game Engine might be changed so that planes only cruise to their patrol zone. I guess it either hasn't or won't be implemented.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tpope
2) Do ASW missions automaticaly create a sub threat nav zone based around those reference points? If so, why don't AAW and ASuW missions appear to do the same thing?

The game simply doesn't create Nav Zones around other types of missions. There is no explanation within the manual. I think that the ASW Nav zone is automatically created to help prevent subs from killing other subs on their own side. When a sub dives on a mission, that sub is out of contact with the world. If it detects another sub, it may not wait for classification before firing and possibly killing a friendly unit. The automatic Nav Zones appear to help keep the various subs separated within their own patrol areas.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tpope
3) I noticed a cool thing about my strike mission and a related annoying thing about another AAW mission I plotted. I was very pleased to see the strike mission planes all go together even though I forogto and didnt' uncheck 1/3 rule. I was even more pleased to see them wait unti lall were launched and then fly in formation the whole way. I was less pleased to see a pair of the 6 F18s I had assigned to a Deep AAW Patrol mission also group. If I had assigned them separately in two groups of three (in the same "edit mission action), would they have then split up and taken separate stations in the patrol zone? Interestingly, they ungroup when the mission is over. In fact, one of the two of my AAW planes ungrouped first when it reached bingo fuel, leaving the other one in a "group" of one.

You may be seeing your mission on a Focused Strike mission. This means that the aircraft all wait for one another to form up before heading off towards the target. See: (http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=1803860)

The 6x F-18s might group together because the AI counts all the same aircraft (with identical loadouts) on that particular mission. Therefore, you may have assigned them separately as 2 groups of 3, but I think that the AI counts all of them as one group of 6. If the two groups of 3 aircraft had different loadouts (i.e. one group with Sidewinders and the other with AMRAAM), then I think that you would see the results you desire.

The planes do tend to drop out of groups one at a time when they run low on fuel and return to base. Thus, you often see them break up and return in a "string" of planes. You will notice that each plane is 1 min behind the other. That's because they take off in 1 minute intervals. So, they will each fly 1 minute longer than the next before they reach Bingo state.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tpope
4) I had my P3 Orion originally on the Ship Recon mission. At some point it (or another plane) managed to identify one of the surface contacts as hostile. I made a ship strike mission, assigned originally the Frigate, but then later decided to add the P3 as well. So far so good, it intercepted, launched Harpoons and then was out of ammo so it headed home. the problem I'm having now is that I can't seem to STOP it from heading home. It's got fuel left, I'd like it to resume the other mission, but it doesn't seem to do that. I can plot nav points manually, and it will follow them, and then resume its "return to base" mission. Is there any way for me to assign it back to the recon mission?

To take the P-3 off the Strike (or Return to Base) mission, hit the "Unassign" hotkey [U]. The plane will now return to your manual command and you re-assign it to your Recon mission via the Mission Editor.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tpope
5) Moving to the ASW missions next. The sub, helicopters and S3s are all searchign in different ways on different missions, and nothing has turned up so far. However, I do find myself annoyed once again by the big honkin crosses all over the map. I'd very much like to have the water depth markers not be so huge. Is there a setting somewhere to adjust their display size?

The "big honking crosses" are simply a game limitation. There is no setting available to change this. If visual imagery is an important part of your game enjoyment, you might like to check out the Harpoon Classic Commanders' Edition, instead.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tpope
6) Another oddity with ASW is that I can make whatever window settings I like with sonobuoys, and I always seem to see the ones I drop manually. Only the ones dropped automatically are hidden if I uncheck that box. Is this a bug, or am I doing something wrong?

When you set Map Preferences to show sonobuoys, you should see all the buoys on your communications net. The method of deployment should be irrelevant.

< Message edited by hermanhum -- 7/27/2008 8:40:08 AM >

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RE: Tutorial 7 Questions - 7/27/2008 8:23:59 AM

FreekS

Posts: 323
Joined: 5/12/2006
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Great to see you learning the game!

1). No idea; the AI has its way of doing things; I suspect its been tought uses burner because intercepts would otherwise never happen as cruise speeds and full speeds of many planes are not different enough to make a reliable intercept.

2) Yes ONLY ASW missions do this. its meant to keep friendly submarines out of area's of danger. That is not needed fro planes and ship because they are always in communication with friendly units and thus not attacked. However the AI WILL attack friendly subs when they are below periscope depth and thus out of comms.

3) Planes use formations of max 4 planes. These planes must be same type and exact same loadout (or the AI will make more groups). It takes something like 2min30s for each plane to launch, so a grup of 4 will take more time to form up than a group of 2. If you are in a hurry (for example because you detect an incoming strike and need to launch CAP, launch them all individually, then they are allup in 2:30!
Air patrol missions generally fly in pairs; so if you assign 6, and check 1/3rd then one pair will launh and patrol as a pair. If you want two pairs to patrol, then either assign 12 planes to the mission, or make two separate missions, or assign 4 and do not check the 1/3rd box.
Yes the ungroup behaviour is normal.

4) You should be able to reassign the P3 by selecting it, hit 'U'(nassign), then reassign it to another mission.

5) No you can only switch the depth indicator on or off.

6) I've not noticed that.

You're learning all the right things, its a pity the Tutorials don't play exactly as built, because since they were built the game and DB changed. Pretty soon you should be able to move on to real scens like Dawn Patrol

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RE: Harpoon - 7/27/2008 5:42:12 PM

tpope

Posts: 30
Joined: 7/24/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: hermanhum

You need to understand that once you place a unit on ANY mission except manual (Plotted), you are basically handing control over to the AI. The AI will pretty much decide what speed it will use, when to activate sensors, what altitude/depth it will travel, when it will fire, etc. You have virtually no control. I agree that a unit should probably not use afterburner when simply traveling to its patrol area. Someone told me that the Game Engine might be changed so that planes only cruise to their patrol zone. I guess it either hasn't or won't be implemented.

Fair enough. I just wasn't certain if I was missing an movement setting somewhere in the mission editor (it's a bit of a convoluted process).

quote:

The game simply doesn't create Nav Zones around other types of missions. There is no explanation within the manual. I think that the ASW Nav zone is automatically created to help prevent subs from killing other subs on their own side. When a sub dives on a mission, that sub is out of contact with the world. If it detects another sub, it may not wait for classification before firing and possibly killing a friendly unit. The automatic Nav Zones appear to help keep the various subs separated within their own patrol areas.

Ok that makes a lot of sense. I think I had auto datalinks on for this tutorial but I just realized that I never actually "talked" to the sub, just assigned it first to one mission and then another.

quote:

Original: hermanhun, FreekS
...
Air patrol missions generally fly in pairs; so if you assign 6, and check 1/3rd then one pair will launh and patrol as a pair. If you want two pairs to patrol, then either assign 12 planes to the mission, or make two separate missions, or assign 4 and do not check the 1/3rd box.

I thought about the pairs thing just after I went to bed. Considering that an AAW patrol won't always be so lucky as to meet up with a May armed only with ASW weapons, it makes sense for them to have some kind of support.

quote:

The "big honking crosses" are simply a game limitation. There is no setting available to change this. If visual imagery is an important part of your game enjoyment, you might like to check out the Harpoon Classic Commanders' Edition, instead.

Sorry, I was unclear. I'm not really opposed to them on an aesthetic basis, but because they clutter the field. Given that at some zoom levels, the crosses are actually larger than contact icons, that made my ASW window a bit hard to follow at times, and I'd have been much happier with just a small dot a few pixels across. I guess I'll put it in to the tracker as a feature request. Though I realize that might not happen until a major release.

I noticed in general that the rendering engine has a lot of little quirks in this game, such as occasionally getting horizontal and vertical skew levels wrong (range circles are almost never circular, but even more oddly sometimes they are ellipses wider than they are tall and in some windows they get squished the other way.

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: tpope
6) Another oddity with ASW is that I can make whatever window settings I like with sonobuoys, and I always seem to see the ones I drop manually. Only the ones dropped automatically are hidden if I uncheck that box. Is this a bug, or am I doing something wrong?

When you set Map Preferences to show sonobuoys, you should see all the buoys on your communications net. The method of deployment should be irrelevant.

That's interesting. I may have to play through again and take a screenshot, as it was a very repeatable behavior. Every time I dropped one it appeared in both the active window (which did not show the ones dropped as part of the mission) and in the main ASW window, which had sonobuoys turned on. So in one window I saw a line of buoys each with their sonar range circle, and in the other I saw only a handful of buoys that I'd dropped. Very odd.

Thanks once again, to both of you, for all of the replies!

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Post #: 4

RE: Harpoon - 7/27/2008 6:23:43 PM

tpope

Posts: 30
Joined: 7/24/2008
Status: offline

Ok, I've uploaded a screenshot (somewhat shrunk) that shows the three display issues I mentioned.

Obviously the depth markings and oddity with skewed range circles are just something I have to live with. But note the two windows. Zoom Map 3 has sonobuoys and sonar ranges turned on, you can see the line dropped by one of the S3s along the bottom middle. ASW Window has its preferences shown, but note that all of the sonobuoys I just dropped manually have shown up.

Now, even stranger, this didn't happen right away. I dropped a whole slew and nothing happened, then after time compression these suddenly appeared. I had the game running as I was typing this and when I look now, they are gone again. I've noticed this also for auto-dropped buoys at higher time compression, where they appear briefly on the main map window before disappearing again. Though for the manual ones I was seeing in the last game I was at the 1 second timescale.

Anyway, it's not a serious issue, just odd. The others, while both bothersome, are also survivable. Though I have to admit, from a "deciding whether to purchase the game" standpoint, all of the minor issues I see in the demo are starting to add up.

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 5

Harpoon - 7/28/2008 12:29:23 AM

hermanhum

Posts: 2209
Joined: 9/21/2005
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You aren't 'stuck' with some of the problems. The skewed range circles has been a known bug since Harpoon 2. It was reported long ago. There is a quick and easy work-around for it.

1) Maximize the map window.
2) Minimize the map window.
3) The correct proportions should be restored.

The sonobuoy problem filled me with intrigue so I tried to replicate it. I was unable to do so. Perhaps you could zip the file up and post it in the Matrix Support section. They allow zipped files as attachments.

< Message edited by hermanhum -- 7/28/2008 12:33:01 AM >

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Harpoon - 7/28/2008 1:02:40 AM

hermanhum

Posts: 2209
Joined: 9/21/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tpope

Obviously the depth markings and oddity with skewed range circles are just something I have to live with. But note the two windows. Zoom Map 3 has sonobuoys and sonar ranges turned on, you can see the line dropped by one of the S3s along the bottom middle. ASW Window has its preferences shown, but note that all of the sonobuoys I just dropped manually have shown up.

Now, even stranger, this didn't happen right away. I dropped a whole slew and nothing happened, then after time compression these suddenly appeared. I had the game running as I was typing this and when I look now, they are gone again. I've noticed this also for auto-dropped buoys at higher time compression, where they appear briefly on the main map window before disappearing again. Though for the manual ones I was seeing in the last game I was at the 1 second timescale.

I found the explanation for this behaviour. You are running the tutorial under the Full Realism setting. The Tutorials say to run this one under Average Difficulty setting. If you do so, it should run okay for you.

Under Full Realism, you are flying out of communications range of your sonobuoys. They then lose contact with your Orion and drop off the net. Even if you subsequently fly back into range of them, the comm link is not re-established. This explains why the more recently dropped buoys (and the closest ones) remain functional while the more distant ones disappear.

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RE: Harpoon - 7/28/2008 3:36:52 AM

tpope

Posts: 30
Joined: 7/24/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: hermanhum
I found the explanation for this behaviour. You are running the tutorial under the Full Realism setting. The Tutorials say to run this one under Average Difficulty setting. If you do so, it should run okay for you.

Under Full Realism, you are flying out of communications range of your sonobuoys. They then lose contact with your Orion and drop off the net. Even if you subsequently fly back into range of them, the comm link is not re-established. This explains why the more recently dropped buoys (and the closest ones) remain functional while the more distant ones disappear.

Ok, that makes sense, and it's quite possible as well, since I'd been tinkering with therealism settings a bit. I'm still not sure why they are appearing at all on the windows where they are disabled (it even happens at 1:1 time) but I'm going to chalk that up to a display glitch like the range circles. If I can find a repeatable way to illustrate the problem I'll post a bug report.

Thanks also for the tip on getting rid of the circles.

(in reply to hermanhum)

Post #: 8