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RE: 6 May 42: Business as Usual

 
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RE: 6 May 42: Business as Usual - 9/29/2008 9:21:51 PM   
vonSchnitter


Posts: 310
Joined: 7/2/2004
From: Germany - still
Status: offline 		Sorry Chaps,

but where do we stand with regard to CV clashes say till the end of 42 ?

IJN CVEs and torps: In Stock and CHS those little buggers are good for a lot of mischief, especially if land based units are available to replace used up or no longer needed air components. (Zeros, Val, Kate).
My best Score: Hermes and 3 R-Class BBs off the Andamans. Gamey ? Yo. Long lances on CVE are. PBM by the way.
Offering me a real opportunity to go after India ...

Even some CVLs could not launch the Kates with torps. If I read the signals correctly, even the last issue is not addressed ? Hm...

Now to my pet peave: single carrier TFs - no solution yet ?
To spell things out slowly: Multiple allied carrier TFs in one hex will pool their cap very effectively. As effective as a 6 CV KB.
The IJN has a coordination "bonus" - even AC from multiple TFs will very likely go after one TF (with priorities CV, BB and so on) - just one Allied CV/TF hit.

On the other hand: The lack of USN coordination of air strikes plus the combined effect of CV cap in one hex will have the following results:

IJ land based Air is most likely decimated by the CAP. (on a wake raid).
IJN will hit the CAP - and if bombers penetrate - one CV hit.

On the other hand, USN strikes - if penetration is achieved - will hurt a number of IJN CVs. Regardless of IJN CV deployment.

And no Terminus - referring to a previous conversation - my intention is not to be diplomatic.
If the AE team has no workable solution - tweaking the code or the oob etc - for the issues, it is not good.
HR suggestions or similar may work. Up to you.

I for one would think, that the PBM players have a different mind set from the AI only chaps - no idea where the $$ are - but a clear statement of services offered may help ?

Anyway.

Cheers







(in reply to RevRick)
Post #: 271
RE: 6 May 42: Business as Usual - 9/29/2008 10:07:05 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		I wonder if Elf would have posted this AAR if he knew the Pandora's box he was opening. I'm sure AE will be great, I'm not expecting it to be perfect, but I appreciate the hard work of the AE team. And I for one am starting to get fatigue from all the posting about more changes and what's missing. Anyone else feel that way?

I like the passion out there, and alot of the posts might be right historically. There are alot of great comments. But in the end it's a GAME, and as long as it's a good clean competitive fun game, I can live with imperfections. Pacific War is kind of a big topic to get absolutely perfect, no?

So, I hope the AI is looking good, and we get a moddable toy pretty soon. But not before the kinks are worked out.

_____________________________


(in reply to vonSchnitter)
Post #: 272
RE: 6 May 42: Business as Usual - 9/29/2008 10:12:23 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		I second Q-Ball's motion.  WitP is fabulous and AE will be even better.  Waypoints alone will make a huge difference.

(in reply to Q-Ball)
Post #: 273
RE: 6 May 42: Business as Usual - 9/29/2008 10:29:46 PM   
pompack


Posts: 2582
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: University Park, Texas
Status: offline 		third

When we get to threats I just use the green button, it helps enormously

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 274
RE: 6 May 42: Business as Usual - 9/29/2008 10:33:40 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vonSchnitter

Even some CVLs could not launch the Kates with torps. If I read the signals correctly, even the last issue is not addressed ? Hm...


The way I read things written in this thread it likely will be addressed, or will (at worst) be trivial to address in the editor by setting the torpedo sorties to 0 (zero) for those particular carriers.


quote:


The IJN has a coordination "bonus" - even AC from multiple TFs will very likely go after one TF (with priorities CV, BB and so on) - just one Allied CV/TF hit.


In the battle AAR'd in this thread both USN CV's were hit and hit hard even though they were in separate TF's.


quote:


Multiple allied carrier TFs in one hex will pool their cap very effectively. As effective as a 6 CV KB.


This point very well might be made moot by the great reduction in lethality of air to air combat.

At any rate, totally eliminating the issue (as you seem to be suggesting) is complicated by the fact that CAPs were able to be vectored to assist outside their own TF, and by the fact that the hex size is being reduced to 40 miles in AE (from 60 miles in WITP).

(in reply to vonSchnitter)
Post #: 275
RE: 6 May 42: Business as Usual - 9/30/2008 12:36:24 AM   
Kull


Posts: 2625
Joined: 7/3/2007
From: El Paso, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vonSchnitter

And no Terminus - referring to a previous conversation - my intention is not to be diplomatic.


I would implore the AE team members to refrain from answering any questions posed by this individual. All his posts are demanding and full of incivilities. It wouldn't take a great deal of effort on his part to rephrase his concerns, but he seems quite pleased by his rudeness, and tries to explain it away as a "language issue" (a ruse which becomes more and more obvious as his post count grows).

Feeding trolls is never good policy, and especially so in this case, as he's poisoning an otherwise wonderful thread.

(in reply to vonSchnitter)
Post #: 276
RE: 6 May 42: Business as Usual - 9/30/2008 12:48:10 AM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Don't worry.

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Post #: 277
RE: 6 May 42: Business as Usual - 9/30/2008 1:57:49 AM   
RevRick


Posts: 2617
Joined: 9/16/2000
From: Thomasville, GA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pompack

third

When we get to threats I just use the green button, it helps enormously


Agreed. The Green Button solution works very well, notably when I get in the mood to light into the recipient like a wild cat with its tail on fire. Talk about a pompous ass!!!

_____________________________

"Action springs not from thought, but from a readiness for responsibility.” ― Dietrich Bonhoeffer

(in reply to pompack)
Post #: 278
RE: 6 May 42: Business as Usual - 9/30/2008 2:31:49 AM   
pompack


Posts: 2582
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: University Park, Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RevRick


quote:

ORIGINAL: pompack

third

When we get to threats I just use the green button, it helps enormously


Agreed. The Green Button solution works very well, notably when I get in the mood to light into the recipient like a wild cat with its tail on fire. Talk about a pompous ass!!!



Actually my usual sequence is to write some juvenile response, read it over and then cancel the whole thing and hit the green button instead

(in reply to RevRick)
Post #: 279
RE: 6 May 42: Business as Usual - 9/30/2008 2:47:03 AM   
MkXIV


Posts: 343
Joined: 6/4/2005
From: North Georgia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Belotes' "TITANS OF THE SEAS" reports some of the smaller Jap CVE's carrying those bipe torpedo bombers and using torps..Played havoc against merchant ships in the Indiana ocean, IIRC..


The Indiana Ocean? Is that anywhere near Evansville?

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(in reply to m10bob)
Post #: 280
RE: 6 May 42: Business as Usual - 9/30/2008 3:44:37 AM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MkXIV


quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Belotes' "TITANS OF THE SEAS" reports some of the smaller Jap CVE's carrying those bipe torpedo bombers and using torps..Played havoc against merchant ships in the Indiana ocean, IIRC..


The Indiana Ocean? Is that anywhere near Evansville?


Now I know why I couldn't find it in the history books. Bob had me fooled!

(in reply to MkXIV)
Post #: 281
RE: 6 May 42: Business as Usual - 9/30/2008 4:53:46 AM   
Tanaka


Posts: 4378
Joined: 4/8/2003
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

The IJN escort carriers were used as aircraft ferries and convoy escorts. The closest anyone of them ever came to a combat zone was when the Taiyo ferried aircraft to the Solomons.


Hi Terminus,

Could you name the carriers here you are specifically referring to? I can find lots of instances of combat zones involving the little carriers...

Battle of the Coral Sea: Shoho:, she joined Carrier Division 4 under the command of Captain Izawa Ishinosuke on 30 November 1941. Her aircraft complement consisted of 16 Mitsubishi A6M "Zero" fighters and 14 Aichi D3A "Val" dive bombers. In April 1942 she was assigned to Operation MO, the invasion of Port Moresby in New Guinea, sailing with the cruisers Aoba, Kinugasa, Furutaka, and Kako of Cruiser Division 6 under the command of Rear Admiral Aritomo Gotō. After covering the landings on Tulagi on 3 May 1942 she entered the Coral Sea. After covering the landings on Tulagi on 3 May 1942 she entered the Coral Sea. In the battle of the Coral Sea on 7 May 1942 she was attacked at 07:55 by fifty-three scout-bombers, twenty-two torpedo planes and eighteen fighters from USS Lexington and USS Yorktown--a force whose intended target had been the two Japanese fleet carriers. Hit by seven torpedoes and thirteen bombs, she foundered quickly, sinking at 08:35 with the loss of 631 men. Captain Izawa and 202 men were rescued by the destroyer Sazanami. Shōhō was the first Japanese aircraft carrier to be sunk in the Pacific War.

Aleutian Islands Campaign: On June 3, 1942, Japanese bombers attacked Dutch Harbor on Unalaska Island using Kate (Nakajima B5N) bombers from the carriers Junyô and Ryûjô.

Battle of Santa Cruz: The Japanese Combined Fleet was also seeking to draw Allied naval forces into what was hoped to be a decisive battle. Two fleet carriers, Hiyo and Junyo , plus one light carrier, Zuiho, arrived at the main Japanese naval base at Truk from Japan in early October and joined Shokaku and Zuikaku. With five carriers fully staffed with air groups, plus their numerous battleships, cruisers, and destroyers, the Japanese Combined Fleet, directed by Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto Isoroku Yamamoto, was confident that they could make-up for their defeat at the Battle of Midway.

Those are just a few...

EDIT: Ah I see now that you are only referring to the CVE's...

< Message edited by Tanaka -- 9/30/2008 5:33:37 AM >

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Post #: 282
RE: 6 May 42: Business as Usual - 9/30/2008 4:57:58 AM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10525
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MkXIV


quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Belotes' "TITANS OF THE SEAS" reports some of the smaller Jap CVE's carrying those bipe torpedo bombers and using torps..Played havoc against merchant ships in the Indiana ocean, IIRC..


The Indiana Ocean? Is that anywhere near Evansville?


Maybe those CVE were playing bagpipes in Indiana!


Anywho ... The Ryujo certinaly played some havoc in the Bay of Bengal in April 1942 .. this is one reason I as focusing on her as a candidate for torp usage.

_____________________________

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New Game Project Lead

(in reply to MkXIV)
Post #: 283
RE: 6 May 42: Business as Usual - 9/30/2008 5:06:19 AM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10525
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

The IJN escort carriers were used as aircraft ferries and convoy escorts. The closest anyone of them ever came to a combat zone was when the Taiyo ferried aircraft to the Solomons.


Hi Terminus,

Could you name the carriers here you are specifically referring to? Do you count Junyo and Ryujo?


I don't think the Japanese were as hung up about classifications as the USN. From what I can see in the IJN a carrier was a carrier from a classification perspective. But for the carriers called CVE in the game Taiyo, Chuyo, Unyo, Kaiyo etc. the only combat usage I've seen related to ASW protection for convoy's. I've seen zero evidence of use as "Baby-Butai" contributors, as we normally use them in the game.

What we or the game call CVL, are a different story and this particular game calls Hiyo and Junyo CV ... even though other games call them CVL. But we know that all the ships called CVL or (small)CV in the game were used in anti-surface-ship combat operations if they could have. Ryujo, Hiyo, Junyo, Zuiho, Shoho, Chiyoda, Chitose, Ryuho. Not saying all these could support torpedo operations, that is still under review, but we know at least the first three had torpedos aboard at some points.



_____________________________

AE Project Lead
New Game Project Lead

(in reply to Tanaka)
Post #: 284
RE: 6 May 42: Business as Usual - 9/30/2008 5:26:30 AM   
Tanaka


Posts: 4378
Joined: 4/8/2003
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

The IJN escort carriers were used as aircraft ferries and convoy escorts. The closest anyone of them ever came to a combat zone was when the Taiyo ferried aircraft to the Solomons.


Hi Terminus,

Could you name the carriers here you are specifically referring to? Do you count Junyo and Ryujo?


I don't think the Japanese were as hung up about classifications as the USN. From what I can see in the IJN a carrier was a carrier from a classification perspective. But for the carriers called CVE in the game Taiyo, Chuyo, Unyo, Kaiyo etc. the only combat usage I've seen related to ASW protection for convoy's. I've seen zero evidence of use as "Baby-Butai" contributors, as we normally use them in the game.

What we or the game call CVL, are a different story and this particular game calls Hiyo and Junyo CV ... even though other games call them CVL. But we know that all the ships called CVL or (small)CV in the game were used in anti-surface-ship combat operations if they could have. Ryujo, Hiyo, Junyo, Zuiho, Shoho, Chiyoda, Chitose, Ryuho. Not saying all these could support torpedo operations, that is still under review, but we know at least the first three had torpedos aboard at some points.




Ah then if we are just talking about the CVE's you listed then that makes more sense...

_____________________________


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Post #: 285
RE: 6 May 42: Business as Usual - 9/30/2008 12:13:30 PM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

I wonder if Elf would have posted this AAR if he knew the Pandora's box he was opening. I'm sure AE will be great, I'm not expecting it to be perfect, but I appreciate the hard work of the AE team. And I for one am starting to get fatigue from all the posting about more changes and what's missing. Anyone else feel that way?

I like the passion out there, and alot of the posts might be right historically. There are alot of great comments. But in the end it's a GAME, and as long as it's a good clean competitive fun game, I can live with imperfections. Pacific War is kind of a big topic to get absolutely perfect, no?

So, I hope the AI is looking good, and we get a moddable toy pretty soon. But not before the kinks are worked out.




Such eloquence must be recognized.


_____________________________




(in reply to Q-Ball)
Post #: 286
RE: 6 May 42: Business as Usual - 9/30/2008 12:16:56 PM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MkXIV


quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Belotes' "TITANS OF THE SEAS" reports some of the smaller Jap CVE's carrying those bipe torpedo bombers and using torps..Played havoc against merchant ships in the Indiana ocean, IIRC..


The Indiana Ocean? Is that anywhere near Evansville?


Why....of COURSE!!!!!!!! (Just an ocean with catfish!)


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Post #: 287
RE: 6 May 42: Business as Usual - 9/30/2008 4:40:22 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline 		Folks,

We all owe Bob an apology for the ribbing:







Attachment (1)

< Message edited by witpqs -- 9/30/2008 7:13:05 PM >

(in reply to m10bob)
Post #: 288
RE: 6 May 42: Business as Usual - 9/30/2008 6:38:08 PM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline 		Awwww...now that is just plain wrong!

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Post #: 289
RE: 6 May 42: Business as Usual - 9/30/2008 6:51:30 PM   
Flying Tiger

 

Posts: 496
Joined: 3/11/2008
From: ummmm... i HATE that question!
Status: offline 		It must be true!! It's on the NET. Therefore... it is true. Right???

Just like it was the 'Moops' who invaded Spain!!

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Post #: 290
RE: 6 May 42: Business as Usual - 9/30/2008 6:57:07 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		You forgot to add the "a" to the box in your task bar, so only B+ for the effort...

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Post #: 291
RE: 6 May 42: Business as Usual - 9/30/2008 7:04:08 PM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline 		Being called to task because I was betrayed by spellchecker..(playin' hard here for the sympathy vote...............)

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Post #: 292
RE: 6 May 42: Business as Usual - 9/30/2008 7:14:08 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

You forgot to add the "a" to the box in your task bar, so only B+ for the effort...


You must be mistaken. Look again.

(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 293
RE: 6 May 42: Business as Usual - 9/30/2008 8:12:29 PM   
undercovergeek

 

Posts: 1526
Joined: 11/21/2006
From: UK
Status: offline 		lol i went back to look for it until i saw the edited by line at the bottom!

swift editing skills there

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 294
RE: 6 May 42: Business as Usual - 10/3/2008 3:59:37 PM   
mc3744


Posts: 1957
Joined: 3/9/2004
From: Italy
Status: offline 		I'm an "old" player of WitP (some of you might remember me) and I've been away form the forum (not from WitP) for a while, due to RL getting in the way

I just want to say that I can't wait for AE to be out!! And that - since I think that WitP is still the BEST war game out there - AE can only be super-BEST.

Any adjustment you make will be welcome and I'm sure that it will have been thought over at least a hundred times by many of you. Hence I have no doubt whatsoever that AE WILL BE a great game.

Thank you

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Post #: 295
RE: 6 May 42: Business as Usual - 10/3/2008 6:01:43 PM   
anarchyintheuk

 

Posts: 3921
Joined: 5/5/2004
From: Dallas
Status: offline 		Nice to see you back mc3744. Maybe you can send a search party out for Hoepner.

(in reply to mc3744)
Post #: 296
RE: 6 May 42: Business as Usual - 10/3/2008 9:58:03 PM   
mc3744


Posts: 1957
Joined: 3/9/2004
From: Italy
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk

Maybe you can send a search party out for Hoepner.



He has been seen briefly a few months ago on the Italian forum then went MIA again.

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Post #: 297
RE: 6 May 42: Business as Usual - 10/3/2008 11:24:49 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline 		Cut the banter and group hugs, guys...time to ask The Elf for another AAR update !! 

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Post #: 298
RE: 6 May 42: Business as Usual - 10/4/2008 12:04:08 AM   
1275psi

 

Posts: 7979
Joined: 4/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mc3744


quote:

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk

Maybe you can send a search party out for Hoepner.



He has been seen briefly a few months ago on the Italian forum then went MIA again.



well there's a couple of his opponents on this forum who say he's not welcome back -the deserter

(in reply to mc3744)
Post #: 299
RE: 6 May 42: Business as Usual - 10/4/2008 12:05:56 AM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		This particular AAR is finished. The scenario is ultra short, remember?

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Post #: 300
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