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HUh? - 5/1/2002 8:52:48 PM   
Frost

 

Posts: 28
Joined: 1/9/2001
From: Syracuse, NY USA
Status: offline 		What the heck are you guys talking about? What costs have gone down? Do you see what HPS and Matrix charge for their games? What ever money their saving by not including Manuals isn't going towards saving the consumer a few bucks.

Let's see... $50.00 for Uncommon Valor and no printed manual isn't saving me a dime. Fortress Europe, a piece of garbage they still have the nerve to charge $39.99 and no printed manual. most of the HPS games are also in the 49.99 range after initial release and no manual. The thing is these prices never go down, it's not like waiting for Best Buy to have a sale on CIV 3, these will always be high with no manual. Maybe wargames would sell better if they offered better prices and manuals. By the time you print all those manuals out or had them printed the cost of a single game gets ridiculous.

Please don't ever tell me having no manuals is a good thing thats a silly argument.

(in reply to David Heath)
Post #: 61
Economics - 5/1/2002 9:57:51 PM   
SKillelea

 

Posts: 16
Joined: 4/26/2002
Status: offline 		As for me, I fully expect go get MUCH more than $50 worth of entertainment out of Uncommon Valor, with or without a printed manual. Even if I had to pay another $10-20 to print a manual, I expect that I would get more than $70 worth of enjoyment out of this title.

It all comes down to cost vs. benefit to me. There are games I have purchased with great manuals that weren't worth the $25 I spent on sale at Best Buy in entertainment value.

To my way of thinking, if the entertainment value is there, I have ABSOLUTELY NO PROBLEM with the people who put their hard work and dedication into creating a game actually making money on the game! If they make money on said game, they will make more high entertainment value games that I will continue to have no problem spending my money on, and the world (at least my world) will be a better place.

A printed manual would be nice (I am a manual hound, as I mentioned in another post), but I am buying a game I expect to play several hundered hours on, and a high quality .pdf manual is by no means going to offset the huge amount of entertainment and enjoyment (far more than $50 worth) I plan on getting from this title.

Heck, if the game is half as good as it looks from the AARs and the website, I may end up having to send 2by3 a tip!

SKillelea

(in reply to David Heath)
Post #: 62
- 5/1/2002 11:35:45 PM   
Frost

 

Posts: 28
Joined: 1/9/2001
From: Syracuse, NY USA
Status: offline 		Heck , let's not forget shipping cost on top of the printing cost, and the high game cost.

Anyone want my copy of Fortress Europe for $40.00?.....I didn't think so.

(in reply to David Heath)
Post #: 63
- 5/2/2002 1:19:02 AM   
Nimits

 

Posts: 39
Joined: 9/30/2000
Status: offline 		Matrix will get away with charging anything short of 3 digits for the simply fact that UC is the ONLY game of its type made int he last ten years for computer, and frankly, if they want to charge high prices or skip manuals, they have every right to do so. Furthermore, since I am an avid PTO buff, and this is the ONLY strategy game to cover the theater in about a decade, and it promises to be of a high calibur, I will undoubtedly buy. Just do not tell me that leaving out printed manuals is a good thing done for the benefit of the consumer.

(in reply to David Heath)
Post #: 64
- 5/2/2002 2:09:51 AM   
WW2'er

 

Posts: 177
Joined: 4/20/2000
From: East Dundee, IL, USA
Status: offline 		If Matrix makes the manual and ships it with the game, the game might have to cost $55-60 dollars. They will not "Pass on" the savings of not having to print a manual. Why should they? They have worked long and hard on the game and deserve a decent profit margin whether or not they provide a printed manual.

By keeping the price at $50, they will sell more games than at $60. More games sold equals both more profit for Matrix and quite possibly, more capital to put toward developing more games. More excellent games definitely benefits the consumer.

So while the immediate consequences of no printed manual do not benefit the consumer, the long term consequences could (and should assuming the game sells well).

If you don't want to buy a game without a manual, then by all means don't. Just, please don't look at us as a crazy for purchasing this great game for $50. I enjoy printed manuals too, but I buy a game for the game, not the manual. If I want a good book, I go to Amazon.com.

_____________________________

WW2'er

"That [state] which separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting by fools." — Thucydides, 'The Peloponnesian Wars'

(in reply to David Heath)
Post #: 65
- 5/2/2002 3:03:41 AM   
ratster

 

Posts: 166
Joined: 1/21/2002
From: PA
Status: offline 		The argument that [B]not[/B] having a printed manual saves money for the publisher is ludicrous. The cost is passed on to the consumer, so it ultimately costs the publisher [B]Nothing[/B].

The cost of printing a 200 page bound manual is 2-3 dollars at most (depends on quantities ordered), a cost most gamers would be willing to pay, I'm sure. One of the reasons Matrix said there wouldn't be a printed manual is that it won't fit in the box. I'm asuming they have a somewhat standard CD box they ship their games in, if so, changing this for one game would cost them money.

I've seen the argument that the size of the company should affect the cost, again as a consumer thats irrelevant to me. I'm not going to pay more for a product simply because the company that makes it is smaller than it's competitors.

Some people are using the argument that UV is a great game and therefore justifies it's price(or more), but only people who have played the finished product can make that statement with any authority.

Personally There are a plenty of games that sounded great in forums, faqs, adds and reviews but simply didn't hold up for long term gameplay (Harpoon anyone?). Obviously you can debate game quality all you want, but I have loads of games on my shelf that came [B]with[/B] boxes/manuals/etc that I got hundreds of hours of play from and cost less than 50 bucks, therefore, as a consumer its the only "yardstick" I can use.

As someone said it's a cost/benefit thing. How much game-play time will you get for any given purchase. Having sundries(manuals, maps, boxes, hotkey cards, unit cards, etc) helps alleviate the initial "purchase apprehension". Of course its only the gameplay that ultimately matters.

All that being said, I'm still going to buy Uncommon Valor, but I won't be initially pleased about spending that amount of money and getting only a CD (and maybe a map), and only game-play time will (or won't) alleviate that.

_____________________________

" If it be now, tis not to come: if it be not to come, it will be now; if it be not now, yet it will come: the readiness is all"

Clan [GOAT]

(in reply to David Heath)
Post #: 66
- 5/2/2002 4:00:48 AM   
WW2'er

 

Posts: 177
Joined: 4/20/2000
From: East Dundee, IL, USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by ratster
[B]The argument that [B]not[/B] having a printed manual saves money for the publisher is ludicrous. The cost is passed on to the consumer, so it ultimately costs the publisher [B]Nothing[/B].

The cost of printing a 200 page bound manual is 2-3 dollars at most (depends on quantities ordered), a cost most gamers would be willing to pay, I'm sure. One of the reasons Matrix said there wouldn't be a printed manual is that it won't fit in the box. I'm asuming they have a somewhat standard CD box they ship their games in, if so, changing this for one game would cost them money.

[/B][/QUOTE]


Ratster, you are making my point exactly!

I know the cost is passed on to the consumer, but it does cost the publisher something........additional sales and therefore, profits. Less people will be willing to pay for the game at the higher price.

That price will be higher than just the additional 2-3 dollar cost of the manual itself. They have to make up for the time to select a publisher and answer all the questions of paper quality, size, binding, delivery time, and price negotiations. You mentioned yourself the larger box size. Larger boxes take up additional warehouse/storage space. Larger, heavier boxes also add to shipping costs that people (especially overseas) are already upset at Matrix about. You have to think like a business person and think of total cost.

I think Matrix is making the best sense choice given their situation. I realize that is just my humble opinion and you are welcome to yours too.:p

_____________________________

WW2'er

"That [state] which separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting by fools." — Thucydides, 'The Peloponnesian Wars'

(in reply to David Heath)
Post #: 67
- 5/2/2002 4:46:04 AM   
ratster

 

Posts: 166
Joined: 1/21/2002
From: PA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]I know the cost is passed on to the consumer, but it does cost the publisher something........additional sales and therefore, profits. Less people will be willing to pay for the game at the higher price. [/QUOTE]

Using that logic they should make the price 10,000 dollars a copy and a only burn 10 cds, saving the maximum amount of production costs. :p

The point is most games on the market that cost 50 bucks come with a printed manual(among other things). Obviously the raising the price affects sales, but at what point it becomes counter productive is highly speculative at best. Not including a printed manual will also affect sales IMO.

[QUOTE]They have to make up for the time to select a publisher and answer all the questions of paper quality, size, binding, delivery time, and price negotiations.[/QUOTE]

Yeah that extra 10 minutes on the phone is really cost prohibitive, lol. :D

[QUOTE]You mentioned yourself the larger box size. Larger boxes take up additional warehouse/storage space. Larger, heavier boxes also add to shipping costs that people (especially overseas) are already upset at Matrix about. You have to think like a business person and think of total cost. [/QUOTE]

Warhouse! are you serious, were not talking cars here, were talking about essentially tiny boxes.

As for shipping cost, the extra weight a manual adds is neglible. There's always a minimum cost associtaed with shipping anything regardless of weight, having a manual in general doesn't add much if anything to the shipping cost.

The only added cost would be if they need to create a new box, however, if thats so then they have no intention of making manauls for any of their games, so its a choice that they should own up to at the start instead of "beating around the bush". Conversly ,if its not a pre-design choice, then the cost is the same(for the box) with or without a manual in mind.

It's a pointless debate, its their product, they can charge whatever they want. Its up to each individual to decide whether or not that price is acceptable, by whatever criteria they deem relevant.

I would say most people on this forum are pre-disposed to purchasing the game (including me) regardless of price(within sane reasoning), that being said, caveat emptor.
:)

_____________________________

" If it be now, tis not to come: if it be not to come, it will be now; if it be not now, yet it will come: the readiness is all"

Clan [GOAT]

(in reply to David Heath)
Post #: 68
- 5/2/2002 6:17:55 AM   
ratster

 

Posts: 166
Joined: 1/21/2002
From: PA
Status: offline 		Its 44.95 just ordered. :)

_____________________________

" If it be now, tis not to come: if it be not to come, it will be now; if it be not now, yet it will come: the readiness is all"

Clan [GOAT]

(in reply to David Heath)
Post #: 69
- 5/2/2002 10:53:16 AM   
Griffin

 

Posts: 21
Joined: 4/19/2002
From: Hong Kong
Status: offline 		Just placed my order! :D

(in reply to David Heath)
Post #: 70
- 5/2/2002 11:10:07 AM   
coach3play4

 

Posts: 123
Joined: 8/26/2000
From: usa
Status: offline 		Placed order - hope system runs better than a year ago, when it was a disaster for matrix - to all - order - these guys deserve our support!

(in reply to David Heath)
Post #: 71
- 5/3/2002 2:54:07 AM   
BB56

 

Posts: 76
Joined: 4/26/2002
From: Mountlake Terrace WA
Status: offline 		Just pre-ordered my copy. Can't wait to play it later this month, right?

Also, about all this manual stuff going on. The manuals included with most of the games I've purchased in the past few year, haven't been worth the paper they are printed on. So, based on my experience, I don't mind a PDF manual. This way, I can print the stuff I might need for the first few games and leave all the fluff on the hard drive.

(in reply to David Heath)
Post #: 72
manuals - 5/3/2002 3:08:24 AM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline 		I could care less. I'd rather have a manual in the game interface, like Europa Universalis 2. Point and read.;)

_____________________________





Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

(in reply to David Heath)
Post #: 73
- 5/3/2002 9:46:41 AM   
IChristie

 

Posts: 673
Joined: 3/26/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada
Status: offline 		The early version of the manual that I have seen is worth every electron you use to read it. It is extensive, detailed and extremely useful. IMHO it certainly exceeds the standard of most printed manuals that I have ever received with other games (particularly in the last few years). The inclusion of hyperlinks etc. actually make it easier to use than a printed manual.

I agree with Ron that having it available through the game interface would be particularly sweet. However, I will say that I have not had any problem ALT-TABing out of the game to the desktop to read the manual, write AAR notes etc. I know this practice is not endorsed or supported by the developers but it does seem to be pretty stable (at least in XP). Of course I always save the game before I try it ;)

_____________________________

Iain Christie
-----------------
"If patience is a virtue then persistence is it's part.
It's better to light a candle than stand and curse the dark"

- James Keelaghan

(in reply to David Heath)
Post #: 74
- 5/3/2002 10:08:57 AM   
siRkid


Posts: 6650
Joined: 1/29/2002
From: Orland FL
Status: offline 		I run Windows Me and I have never had a problem using Alt Tab. The manual is very detailed. In fact after weeks of playing the game I am still finding little bits of useful information. Todays bit....Make sure you set the level of ASW when you assigin a SQ to ASW duty. Otherwise it will be at zero and none of the planes will fly.

Rick

_____________________________

Former War in the Pacific Test Team Manager and Beta Tester for War in the East.


(in reply to David Heath)
Post #: 75
- 5/3/2002 10:17:28 PM   
Supervisor

 

Posts: 5166
Joined: 3/2/2004
Status: offline 		I for one am glad the manual is extensive, for new comers to the game such as myself I'll need all the help I can get.:D

_____________________________


(in reply to David Heath)
Post #: 76
- 5/3/2002 10:33:15 PM   
Raverdave


Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kid
[B]Todays bit....Make sure you set the level of ASW when you assigin a SQ to ASW duty. Otherwise it will be at zero and none of the planes will fly.

Rick [/B][/QUOTE]


What level have you found best......low? Medium? Or High?

_____________________________




Never argue with an idiot, he will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

(in reply to David Heath)
Post #: 77
- 5/3/2002 10:59:51 PM   
siRkid


Posts: 6650
Joined: 1/29/2002
From: Orland FL
Status: offline 		I have it set at 100% right now. I will let you know if I get results.

_____________________________

Former War in the Pacific Test Team Manager and Beta Tester for War in the East.


(in reply to David Heath)
Post #: 78
- 5/3/2002 11:08:50 PM   
Raverdave


Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kid
[B]I have it set at 100% right now. I will let you know if I get results. [/B][/QUOTE]


OIC, when you said "level" I was thinking "hight":rolleyes:

_____________________________




Never argue with an idiot, he will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

(in reply to David Heath)
Post #: 79
Drooling - 5/5/2002 12:33:17 PM   
cyberwop

 

Posts: 58
Joined: 5/11/2001
From: Valparaiso, Indiana
Status: offline 		Placed my order yesterday. Can wait for the game. I find myself here at least twice a day eventhough I know it won't ship til at least the 15th.

I like manuals also, but the drought on these games has been so long brothers I don't care if I get a pdf. file in swahilli. Ship me the game I'll figure it out. Or someone here will help me.

Thank you Matrix

_____________________________

Live like a King and Die like a man.

(in reply to David Heath)
Post #: 80
- 5/5/2002 5:01:36 PM   
daniel123

 

Posts: 296
Joined: 8/30/2000
From: Orlando
Status: offline 		I like a manual in book form also, but today just about everyone has a printer color or not. The highest cost of shipping a manual with the game is postage. The government run postage monoplys only know one sentence
!!!!!!! "RAISE THE RATES" !!!!!!!

(in reply to David Heath)
Post #: 81
- 5/5/2002 10:16:11 PM   
osros

 

Posts: 52
Joined: 5/3/2002
Status: offline 		Well with or without a Manual the cost of the games still remain the same! So that means the maker is saving some coin. Thats
great and for those would dont care if the manual is on paper or PDF thats fine also.

But for those of us you WANT a manual on paper may feel cheated in some way for paying the same and getting less.

Anyway I pre-ordered my copy.. Love ya!

(in reply to David Heath)
Post #: 82
- 5/5/2002 10:35:22 PM   
Mojo

 

Posts: 915
Joined: 2/6/2002
From: Portland, Oregon USA
Status: offline 		Here's what happened to every one my manuals.

I use it religiously for a day. For the next couple of weeks I will refer to it regularly. Then I'll find that it's been knocked to the floor and I'll pick it up after looking at it for a few days.

The next time I see it it will be back on the floor right where I just kicked over a coke or a cup of coffee. I'll dry it off and be irritated that it is no longer pristine.

I'll grab it the next time I need to kill the odd wasp that gets into my computer room. Weeks later I'll see it laying in an out of the way place and when I go to pick it up I'll notice that the cat has wherfed up on it and it gets thrown away.

So come to think of it if I don't get a manual how will I soak up spilled coke, kill wasps and where the heck is my cat gonna puke?

Help I'm being repressed!

_____________________________

If something's not working you might want to tunk it a dite.
Mojo's Mom

(in reply to David Heath)
Post #: 83
:) - 5/6/2002 2:16:29 AM   
Rob Roberson

 

Posts: 387
Joined: 5/1/2002
Status: offline 		Laughing my *** off.

(in reply to David Heath)
Post #: 84
- 5/6/2002 12:35:56 PM   
MalleusDei

 

Posts: 56
Joined: 4/27/2001
From: Baton Rouge
Status: offline 		>Help I'm being repressed!

That's OPRESSED, not repressed. :)

(in reply to David Heath)
Post #: 85
To manual or not to manual... - 5/6/2002 11:34:32 PM   
Toro


Posts: 578
Joined: 4/9/2002
From: 16 miles southeast of Hell (Michigan, i.e.), US
Status: offline 		Lots of stances here on whether the manual should be included or not, so I thought I'd post my views and observations.


1) $44.95 -- seems to me that I paid this much for decent (and many not-so-decent) games over the last 2-3 years. Prices increase over time (economics of supply & demand, cost of goods, etc, etc), and while the games industry has not generally increased prices over the last years, something has to give. My opinion has been that what's been sacrificed has been quality (lots of godawful things out there these days), or sometimes the lack of manuals. Matrix isn't the first to do depart from providing manuals.

2) cost of manuals is delivered to the consumer. Sorry, that's the way of life. We pay for everything we get in the box. If there's more, the price is higher. If a manual was to be included here, we'd pay more than $44.95. The cost of the materials for a manual may be $2-3 (although, in low print runs, that may be a bit underestimated), but as others have noted, shipping costs increase with weight, layout design is added, box size, storage, etc, etc. It adds up.

3) manuals, in my history, serve me for about 1 week, and then I get the hang of things and the manual becomes a coffee mug coaster, dust gatherer, or generally something that I step on and get pissed at for being in the way.

4) frankly, I don't want the paper manual. And, that I don't have to pay for it is fine with me. Printing is cheap for those who want it, so do so. Please don't ask me to cover a partial of the cost for your manual (as I would have to if it were included in the box).

5) this seems to be a (dare I say?) silly argument. Let's just deal with it, find another coffee mug coaster, and get our frustrations out against each other in the PBEM venue (I'll take on a pro-manual opponent first thing -- I say thumping my chest). This game, from all appearances (AARs, etc) is going to be the best thing to hit OUR market for a long time. I have a feeling it's going to make past ventures (PTO II, CAW, etc) look pretty durned juvenile. $44.95 is so incredibly cheap for my anticipated enjoyment (months and months, or until WitP comes out) that a manual didn't even enter into my decision considerations.


There's my opinion, for what it's worth. No offense intended to anyone of a different opinion.

Thanks for reading.

(in reply to David Heath)
Post #: 86
- 5/7/2002 12:08:38 AM   
Mojo

 

Posts: 915
Joined: 2/6/2002
From: Portland, Oregon USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by MalleusDei
[B]>Help I'm being repressed!

That's OPRESSED, not repressed. :) [/B][/QUOTE]

No I just checked and I'm definately being repressed. You have your problems and I have mine:D

_____________________________

If something's not working you might want to tunk it a dite.
Mojo's Mom

(in reply to David Heath)
Post #: 87
Common Sense!! - 5/7/2002 2:16:42 AM   
IanLister

 

Posts: 158
Joined: 4/7/2002
From: Pennine Hills, Northern England, UK
Status: offline 		Toro....I TOTALLY agree with you about the manual. Let's just be completely satisfied that someone appears to have made a decent, proper, accurate, historical etc etc wargame...probably the first real one in many years. Manual? You'll be too busy playing to read it.

_____________________________

Battleaxe Rules!

(in reply to David Heath)
Post #: 88
- 5/7/2002 3:08:09 AM   
rosary

 

Posts: 1162
Joined: 10/8/2001
From: U.S.A.
Status: offline 		I would say that if you want a printed manual just print the pdf file. Then you have your printed manual!

(in reply to David Heath)
Post #: 89
Bought My Copy - 5/7/2002 8:35:38 AM   
VictorH

 

Posts: 309
Joined: 9/3/2000
From: Georgetown, Texas, U.S.
Status: offline 		Placed my order the other day.

(in reply to David Heath)
Post #: 90
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