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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> How are captured units represented?

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How are captured units represented? - 4/28/2002 10:49:35 PM

Wasp

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How are captured units in this game represented? For example when you overrun an enemy airfield, do you get to capture enemy equipment?(aircraft, AA, supplies, fuel, etc) If it is possible to capture enemy equipment, is it possible to use them against your enemy?:confused:

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- 4/29/2002 9:54:49 AM

Bulldog61

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In UV you do not get enemy equpmint, but the facilities are there.

Mike

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Re: How are captured units represented? - 4/29/2002 2:56:24 PM

Mike Wood

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Hello...

You will get to capture supplies, fuel and you might get to capture enemy ships.

Bye...

Michael Wood
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Wasp
[B]How are captured units in this game represented? For example when you overrun an enemy airfield, do you get to capture enemy equipment?(aircraft, AA, supplies, fuel, etc) If it is possible to capture enemy equipment, is it possible to use them against your enemy?:confused: [/B][/QUOTE]

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- 4/30/2002 7:30:44 AM

Wasp

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Well, well, well, did you say you could possibly capture enemy ships? Wow, if you could, this would be great! How do you do this? Would you have to damage the ship significantly and damage morale? Do you get to make special forces over take a ship? How does this work..... Hmmm, this would be interesting because if you could capture ships, the IJN could possibly capture ships which may come in close and reduce the quantity gap between the USN and the IJN.
And another thing, now that I know you cannot use captured equipment in UV, how is an aircraft unit handled if it's airfield was overtaken? For example a airfield with 100 B-17s is overtaken by Japanese ground forces. Now is the aircraft and its aircrew; are they presumed to be lost? In my opinion, it would be wrong for a airgroup to mysteriously reappear after being "captured-destroyed". I think it would be more realistic when a airfield or port is captured with its forces, you get to use the captured equipment against the enemy.... Although this option of using captured equipment against the enemy is not available in UV, could you possibly consider making this option available for WITP please? It would be very cool and very realistic(?) if you get to fly captured Zeros along with F6Fs and intercept a Japanese squadron (Well, as long as the number of captured equipment is limited so that you don't end up with more enemy equipment than your own). Well enough of my blabbering.

Bye for now......

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- 4/30/2002 9:42:59 AM

Supervisor

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[QUOTE]Well, well, well, did you say you could possibly capture enemy ships? Wow, if you could, this would be great! How do you do this? Would you have to damage the ship significantly and damage morale? Do you get to make special forces over take a ship? How does this work..... Hmmm, this would be interesting because if you could capture ships, the IJN could possibly capture ships which may come in close and reduce the quantity gap between the USN and the IJN.[/QUOTE]
I would think that the only viable (and realistic) possibility for capturing a ship would be while it is in port. When the port is captured, you might be able to capture a ship which is too damaged to sortie. Whether you could get it before they scuttle or not would be the key. Now it might be possible to raise the ship after they scuttle it (of course, if they set off the magazines, I would say the chances of getting anything other than scrap would be poor :D).

[QUOTE]I think it would be more realistic when a airfield or port is captured with its forces, you get to use the captured equipment against the enemy[/QUOTE]
I would think that it would be highly unrealistic to assume that many aircraft are captured in anything close to workable condition. Unless there is absolute and overwhelming surprise, any planes able to be flown out, would be, and any that couldn't, would be destroyed by the ground crews before capture. Artillery could be spiked, etc.

[QUOTE]It would be very cool and very realistic(?) if you get to fly captured Zeros along with F6Fs and intercept a Japanese squadron[/QUOTE]
Would [I]you[/I] like to be the pilot sent up in a flying gas tank :D ? Seriously, though, you would have problems in a dogfight with identification on which were 'friendly' or 'enemy' Zeros in such case. Enough so, that any possible benefit would be negated (IMO).

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Post #: 5

Ship capyure - 4/30/2002 11:18:16 AM

Ron Saueracker

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Historically, the Japanese could have capyured the Hornet CV8 after Santa Cruz. After having failed to scuttle Hornet with gunfire and torpedoes, the escorting dds left the seen with the arrival of IJN units. The IJN despatched the Hornet with a few Long Lances. I've wondered if the IJN could have towed it back to Truk. That would have been interesting.

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Post #: 6

Captured ships - 5/1/2002 7:36:49 AM

norsemanjs

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There were several ships that were captured by the Japanese early in the war which they used. Most of these were in China, Phillipines, Indonesia. Most were auxillaries, merchant vessels and some smaller patrol craft.

For example the Yamasemi (ex-Chien Kang) and Kawasemi (ex-Hu Oah) were two 96 ton torpedo boats taken from China. They supposedly (and probably correctly) had no combat value.

The Dhonburi a Thai coastal defence ship was rebuilt (after a 1941 engagement with French units in SE Asia) in Japan and used by the IJN I believe.

Just a couple of examples of ships utilized by the Japanese after being captured. Maybe appropriated would be a better description.

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- 5/1/2002 5:36:12 PM

Jim D Burns

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According to Richard Worth's book "Fleets of World War II", Japan also captured several Chinese combatants which were salvaged and renamed after suffering attacks that either sunk or crippled them.

The light crusiers (2,200 tons) Ning Hai and Ping Hai were crippled in an air bombing in 1937 and renamed the Ioshima and Yasoshima after being salvaged by Japan.

The Chinese destroyer Chien Kang (390 tons) was sunk and then raised by the Japanese and served as the Yamasemi. Granted this was a very 'light' destroyer by WWII standards, but never the less it did see service. My guess is it served in coastal anti-submarine patrols, but the book doesn't go into those kinds of details.

These examples clearly show that ships could be and were salvaged when damaged or sunk in shallow water (a port only rule I'd think would work ok). As to capturing ships in the open ocean... I think it would be a stretch to justify a rule allowing this. There were simply too many variables required for a chance for this to happen, and in the one case it did occur (cited by Ron Saueracker), the Japanese sunk the Hornet outright, making no attempt to tow it into port.

Jim

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- 5/1/2002 9:01:00 PM

LargeSlowTarget

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I faintly remember having read that the Japanese took over an USN 4-stacker and a Dutch destroyer during the occupation of the NEI. IIRC both were damaged in port and unable to move to safety. I don't know whether they had been scuttled and raised or were just 'captured', but they eventually served with the IJN. Sorry for this foggy recollection, most of my WWII books and references are in storage. Can someone shed more light on this issue?

Mr. Wood, could you please elaborate on the factors, conditions etc. in WitP that influence the possible capture of enemy ships in port? Can ships be scuttled and raised / repaired again? Is it possible to capture enemy ships at sea when they are out of fuel? Is there an auto-return-to-port-function when fuel is running low (like in GNB)? Or do ships always have a minimum propulsion regardless of the fuel situation , like in PacWar? (I always wondered how? On tow, sailing, pushed by swimming sailors? :) ?)

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- 5/2/2002 2:12:20 AM

Mike Wood

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Hello Slow Moving Target...

You can call me Michael, if you prefer. The exact conditions for capture have not been worked out. The feature is not on our coding list. But, I like the idea. I am watching this thread to see what you folks think. Maybe, a certain chance if a port is captured, if the locals or crew do not scuttle or maybe even at sea, if no escorts and no useful guns, if the crew and captian fail a check or something.

What do You guys think???

Michael Wood

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by LargeSlowTarget
[B]I faintly remember having read that the Japanese took over an USN 4-stacker and a Dutch destroyer during the occupation of the NEI. IIRC both were damaged in port and unable to move to safety. I don't know whether they had been scuttled and raised or were just 'captured', but they eventually served with the IJN. Sorry for this foggy recollection, most of my WWII books and references are in storage. Can someone shed more light on this issue?

Mr. Wood, could you please elaborate on the factors, conditions etc. in WitP that influence the possible capture of enemy ships in port? Can ships be scuttled and raised / repaired again? Is it possible to capture enemy ships at sea when they are out of fuel? Is there an auto-return-to-port-function when fuel is running low (like in GNB)? Or do ships always have a minimum propulsion regardless of the fuel situation , like in PacWar? (I always wondered how? On tow, sailing, pushed by swimming sailors? :) ?) [/B][/QUOTE]

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My two cents... - 5/2/2002 3:19:21 AM

Scouters

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Based on historical data it seems like such a rare occurance and in the big picture would have no significant impact on the outcome. I would personally rather see programming time devoted to other bells and whistles. Just one opinion.

-Scouters

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- 5/2/2002 3:27:15 AM

Jim D Burns

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by LargeSlowTarget
[B]I faintly remember having read that the Japanese took over an USN 4-stacker and a Dutch destroyer during the occupation of the NEI. IIRC both were damaged in port and unable to move to safety. I don't know whether they had been scuttled and raised or were just 'captured', but they eventually served with the IJN. Sorry for this foggy recollection, most of my WWII books and references are in storage. Can someone shed more light on this issue?[/B][/QUOTE]

A quick check of Fleets of WWII states the Clemson class Destroyer "Stewart" was captured in Java in 1942 and served as Japanese patrol boat P102 for most of the war. It doesn't go into details of how the capture came about though. Due to the massive numbers of US destroyers I didn't browse through them, I only checked the Clemson class boats, so there may be other US ships that were captured as well.

As to the Netherlands, the largest ship raised by the Japanese was the Soerbaia (5,644 tons) a coast defense ship, raised after having been scuttled. The Japanese used it as a block ship.

The Japanese also captured the Destroyer Banckert (1,316 tons). This ship was also raised after having been scuttled, and was renamed Patrol Boat P106, but apparently it was never brought back into full service.

the Japanese also raised the scuttled K XVIII sub and used it as a raidar hulk.

A brief check of the Japanese notes state several "allied" combatant ships were captured and used by the navy. In addition countless small TB's, Gunboats and merchant vessels were captured as well.

It should be mentioned that compared to the Japanese, the Germans captured significantly more ships and subs. I think this is a result of significantly better shipyards and engineering capabilities available to the salvage crews, so perhaps the size of the port should be a factor when attempting to raise scuttled ships.

Ships that fail to be scuttled by their crews shouldn't be affected by the size of the ports of course.

Jim

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Re: My two cents... - 5/2/2002 3:43:02 AM

Jim D Burns

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Scouters
[B]Based on historical data it seems like such a rare occurance and in the big picture would have no significant impact on the outcome. I would personally rather see programming time devoted to other bells and whistles. Just one opinion.

-Scouters [/B][/QUOTE]

I'm no programmer, but I think a simple ownership toggle for ships could be implimented relatively easily if it's not already in there. Then work out a simple % check for each ship whenever a port containing ships is captured and tie the % chance of a succesful capture to the size of the port. Say 2-3% base chance of capture for each vessel with a 1-2% increase for each level of the port.

Then if a ship makes its roll, simply schedule it to reappear as a reinforcment in that port in 3-6 months. There isn't a need to go into definitions as to how the ship was captured (raised verses simply walking aboard an abandoned vessel), simply note its capture and assimilation into the new owners navy.

Jim

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- 5/2/2002 5:35:29 AM

LargeSlowTarget

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Michael, thanks for your prompt response.
I think Scouters and Jim both made valid points. On the one hand capturing enemy vessels might be a rare occurrence and will not change the big picture. On the other hand, if the game models each individual ship (does it?) and its fate, then this will include a possible change of ownership - under certain circumstances. If it is possible to code this with relative ease, then it should be done. PacWar already seems to include a check for vessels in port when bases are taken over because sometimes I saw new TFs created automatically with ships trying to escape while in other cases the ships apparently were destroyed in port. How difficult will it be to make some of them reappear in the victor's ship pool? Jim's idea sounds good, but it should apply only to vessels too damaged for a sortie (certain max speed or floatation damage)and only for bases that were overrun quickly with the first ground attack.
Okay, it may still be a dream feature, but we know Matrix can do the impossible. :)

LST

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USS Stewart - 5/2/2002 5:41:05 AM

mdiehl

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It was captured in Surabaya, where it had been scuttled following damage from previous air raids that made it unseaworthy.

She re-entered service as IJN PB102 in 1944.

And here is a link...

[url]www.magweb.com/sample/ww2/ns11phan.htm[/url]

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- 5/2/2002 8:24:06 AM

Wasp

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HI. I'm really glad this subject is really getting some serious attention because I thought Captured units was one part that wargames in general did not do too well in, which is why I started this thread.:) They may give you so much captured units that you actually have more enemy than your own!(?) Or they simply ignore the captured equipment idea. I think that captured units should be given when you have met certain variables.
1. The enemy did not have time to scuttle
2. The enemy failed to scuttle
3. The enemy could not fight back because of damage, but still mobile
4. Maybe, Maybe a dice which ontrolls when you get the unit based on these premises.(?)

I also think that with capturing ships comes an interesting thought. How about commandos which could capture lone ships, unarmed cargo vessels, etc. I know this is totally out of the scope of WWII, but I think it could be an interesting idea. Just another idea for those of you out there who are interested. :D

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Capturing Ships - 5/3/2002 12:01:49 AM

Jeremy Pritchard

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Large numbers of merchant vessels were captured.

Many light craft (MTB, Patrol, Minesweepers, etc) were captured as well.

Only a few 'real' warships were caputred.

These took YEARS to bring back into operating condition, since the local IJN was responsible 100% for rebuilding these vessels, as they were raised and repaired locally (without any support from the home islands). Repairing these small vessels was difficult enough, imagine trying to repair a light cruiser! Possibly this would get more attention, and have the IJN tow it to the home islands, but building a new ship from scratch would probably save more resources then raising, repairing and rebuilding an old vessel (since they could not use the original machenery/weaponry due to lack of spares and supplies).

The IJA did make use of captured artillery, and vehicles during the Malaya campaign, and even captured tanks in the Philippines. The Japanese captured A LOT of equipment, machine-guns, artillery vehicles, etc. during the first 6 months. However, 99% of it was used locally, to replace losses.

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Captured Units? - 5/14/2002 6:30:26 AM

Wasp

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So, are captured represented in the game? Have you made up your mind about including or not including captured units? Just curious about what's going to happen with this.

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- 5/14/2002 10:05:26 AM

Ranger-75

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I think only one US warship was actually captured in the Pacific war, a destroyer, caught in Java and not sompletely disabled by the allies before capitulating. the Japanese Navy used the ship, it survived the war and want back to the USN. I don't know of any IJN warships capturted and used by the allies, and only 2 or 3 German U-boats were captured on the high seas during the entire war. The old game already handles capturing oil, I think some supplies should be subject to capture. I'm not sure the miniscule amount of artillery that might get captured in a battle would be worth trying to simulate.

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- 5/14/2002 1:09:24 PM

gus

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While the notion of capturing an enemy's capital ship is certainly intriguing I don't feel that this would add anything substantial to WitP and may even detract from it if it was implemented badly.

If it is included in WitP I would like to suggest that it be a very, very rare occurence and repair, maintenance and supply cost for any captured ship be doubled or even tripled to reflect the additional cost to capture or jerry-rig parts, equipment and ammo.

-g

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- 5/14/2002 8:06:11 PM

byron13

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Gus raises a good point. Capturing military ships was rare enough that it should not have any affect on the a game with the scope of WitP. But if the programmers did try and factor it into the programming, there would inevitably be time when the ship was captured under ridiculous circumstances, it would get posted on this forum, and all of us here would question the "bugginess" of the program.

If you leave ship capture out of the game, none of us will notice it is missing. If you put it in, some of us will have problems with the way it is implemented. Given the risk/reward, it is better to leave it out.

(However, I could see capturing merchants if you capture a port in lightning attack - you know, attacking like a vicious jack rabbit . . .)

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- 5/14/2002 9:01:30 PM

Supervisor

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I would say that any ship "captured" would most likely turn out to be a scuttled ship which is found to be recoverable. This would mean many months work to get it to where it could even go to sea, much less fight. It would most likely then be shipped back to Japan (as I can see only the Japanese getting enough benefits out of refloating and repairing major ships) for repair and complete refit. And, as was done with the destroyer, much of the armament (if not all) would be replaced with Japanese equipment. It was basically the hull & engines that were kept on the destroyer.

I couldn't say about the merchant shipping. Generally, it would be the same as warships. If it can sortie and get the flock out of town, then it would do so, otherwise, they would scuttle the ship. If the crew wouldn't, I would think the military would (to keep it out of the hands of the enemy).

Early in the war, with surprise and confusion, it might be a bit easier to get one (maybe even unsunk) in port, but later on it become almost impossible (especially if the fall of the port could be seen coming).

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- 5/14/2002 9:39:50 PM

Adnan Meshuggi

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Well, first at all, i like the idea of capture a enemy ship....

but it should be rare, maybe only in ports....

On the other hand, just think about the following situation.

The enemy has many ships in a port.
Now following possibilities can happen
a.) Your troops catch the enemy by surprise (night attack, break through with chaos by the enemy) or you sunk one ship in the harbor entrance... the rest is trapped.
b.) the enemy has only some light forces, you apear with, lets say the yamato, nagato and 5 heavy cruisers by surprise in front of this harbour... nobosy would escape the ships into sure death
c.) paratroopers (allied side) invade a undefended harbor with only some helpless sailors

I think, in such cases, it should be depend on such factors like moral, combat rediness and luck.

Also, the damage on the ship/ships could be caluclate for the factors

Time (how long had the enemy time to prepare the ships/items to be destroyes)

Moral (how good is the moral, are they fillipinos who wnat to go home, US Rangers etc.)

Readiness (paniced, supressed by art-fire, many deads by air/sea attacks...)

Resources to damage/sunk ships/material
(if you have NO TNT to blow a bridge, it is difficult to destroy the bridge.... so the same to undefended merchants...

The result of such capturing should be also important...

if a american warship with radar equippment is sunk in chaos (and very short time) it could be a chance that such a radar could come into jap hands undamaged or only lightly damaged.... like the rotterdam-radar of the brits.... or allways secret informations can fall in the hand of the enemy... and and and

sure it is wrong that you catch with every port you conquer, secrets, undamaged warships or even fully ready airplanes, but it should be a possibility of such things.

To repair a sunken sub in harbour is a easy thing, and even if you don�t use the sub, you can learn about your enemy, this is also for both sides true.

Maybe we can build in a surprise attack option (with high risk) witch is neccesary for such succsess - and this option is only posible if you are unnoticed by the enemy, have a huge advantage etc....

this would change your strategy too. To seek informations or material, you must risk more... and the chance is very low, but worthy...

An other point who is important, how do we handle the port blockade thing... i mean, if a ship in a atoll with only a very small way through is sunk there... the whole harbor is finished for some weeks AND the ships in the atoll are trapped... or in the pearl harbor case, i remember, that nearly one battleship could have blocked the only way out of pearl, that would have been very very bad for the USA. So we should build in such possibilities, depending of the quality of a captain, luck, errors and so on.

I like the idea of a trapped fleet in a harbor and you have to wait until you could come out....

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Post #: 23

- 5/14/2002 11:57:41 PM

byron13

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Guys, I'm telling you: this all sounds great in theory, but it will cause problems.

Capturing ships will become an objective, and operations will be planned around the possibility of capturing the capital ships of the enemy, which is unrealistic. However, I would bet that most of you will replay a turn in which one of your battleships is captured. "No, not realistic in this situation. It wouldn't have happened this way."

Except for merchants, there just isn't enough benefit or impact on the strategic picture to warrant the resulting confusion. As far as capturing technology like radar, I hope it is not factored into the game. Sure, it would be fun to capture radar technology. What about code machines, enemy aircraft for R&D purposes? What about capturing a Japanese destroyer, loading it up with commandos, and sailing it into a harbor with a Japanese carrier and blowing it up? Awhile ago there was a thread that asked if some of the following activities would be allowed:

- the attempt by the Japanese to replicate pearl harbor with floatplanes from the rendevous point of the island of french frigate shoals (this attempt was thwarted due to code breaking)
- the Japanese use of floatplanes to bomb the pacific NW forests and other similar attempts
- using the Yamato as a giant kamikaze to beach itself on okinawa and be used as a beach battery
- Japanese shelling of a california oil refinery in 12/41

You've got to draw the line somewhere. This is a grand strategic game, and these minor events simply don't effect the outcome of the game in any material sense. They also take time to program and, with each new minor event programmed, an increased risk that there will be a bug.

But an even bigger problem is the confusion caused. In BTR, Gary programmed in some neat random events or had variables affecting things that were not obvious and were not mentioned in the rules. The rules were quite complete and thorough, but there is no way they can spill enough ink to properly cover these kinds of variables. Anyway, many of these hidden variables either caused bugs or were thought to be bugs until someone went in and looked at the code.

What will happen with ship capture and especially technology capture is that, at first, people complained about the X problem and the Y bug until it is explained that it was a design feature. "Hey, the Japanese didn't have radar on their ships until _____. Why are they getting it early? Must be a bug/design problem." People will whine on the forum.

Once they realize there is the possibility of one of these events occurring, they will try and game around it. "Okay, capture should only be possible if I'm surprised and I'm in a harbor with a narrow passage that can be blocked." Suprise! You have ships captured that you don't believe should have been captured. More whining on the forum.

The next step will be an analysis of the parameters under which a particular variable will occur, and everyone will whine about the parameters. Capture shouldn't occur if the assaulting army came from the land side of the port; there should be airborne forces required; there should be at least a 3:1 superiority of ships on location, etc. More whining.

As neat as these ideas are, there is a limit to how much can and should be designed into a game like this. Trust me, you will be much more satisfied with the game if minor events like these are not modeled at all than if they are modeled and either (i) you don't know how they are modeled or (ii) you don't agree with the way they were modeled.

Just my two cents. Flame me, brothers, I'm ready.

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Post #: 24

- 5/15/2002 3:38:40 AM

Supervisor

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I definitely agree that there should be no specific "attempt" to capture a ship allowed. Any capture should be a rare circumstance; after all, the largest actual capture - the US destroyer Stewart in Java, was raised after having been blown up in floating drydock and sunk (along with the drydock). Of course, she was also the largest ship that I know of that was scuttled in harbor (or shallow water) that was [I]available[/I] for salvage.

Now, in actuality, this is something of more use for the Japanese than it would be for the US. Practically, it wouldn't be worth the bother for the US as they were building ships faster (& cheaper) than the time it would take to rebuild the captured vessel. The Japanese, though, could use any hull afloat, which is essentially why the Stewart was raised in Java. It also took them about eight months to get it back to usable (and they waited a year before they attempted it). Plus another several months rebuilding back in Japan later on. The US armament was removed and captured Dutch army armaments were used on her (until her refit in Japan). They never got more than 3 of the 4 boilers back online (and initially only 2), so there there should be a corresponding hit in performance. After the refit, it could attain 26 knots (and that's the best it regained). So, captured ships & equipment [I]were[/I] used. It wasn't quick, but another ASW vessel in mid-1943 was well worth the trouble for the Japanese.

I would still stick to the possibility of it happening, but it would have to be of a ship that cannot sortie (as was the case with the Stewart above). Any ship that could sortie, would (at least naval vessels would - I would also figure that the merchants would too, as they wouldn't want to be captured if they could avoid it). That's all there is to that. And, after being sunk, salt water can do a pretty good number on much of the equipment (especially electonics).

It won't break my heart whether it is there or not. Be interesting if it were there (adds a little variability, and it did happen, if extremely rarely).

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- 5/15/2002 5:08:26 AM

mdiehl

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I like the idea of capture, even capture at sea, but there should be a cost, planning, and implementation involved. There were at least two captures at sea in WW2, maybe more.

One was a RN operation on a U-Boat in, IIRC, the North Sea, that resulted in the recovery of an Enigma box. The event was made recently into a really bad (that is, "Hollywood History As Usual") movie in which the RN marines became American commandoes who crewed the boat through underwater battles.... just ghastly. Unlike in the horrid movie, the sub was scuttled at sea.

The other was the U505 incident. (see Daniel Vincent Gallery). That was a preplanned op with special boarding parties trained in advance. Could only happen under some really ideal circumstances (like, not in heavy sees, boat not sinking too fast, demo charges and booby traps not detonating when boarding party enters boat, and so forth).

With a surface vessel abandoned adrift it would be easier. But not too easy. I suspect the chief reason why the Japanese torpedoed Lexington was the she seemed clearly unsalvageable, given the "flames shooting from stem to stern" and other descriptions. Even assuming that it was salvageable, the equipment wasn't there to attempt it. So the Japanese did what any decent Mariner would do: scuttle an obvious and dangerous threat to navigation.

The US should be allowed it if Japan is allowed it. The material gain is not so great. That is, for example, the USN hardly needs one of those oversized submersible I-class or RO class barges when it has much better boats coming off the quays. But the intelligence, the assessment of torpedoes and so forth, .... that would be useful. Imagine for example that at Wake one of the IJN DDs is carrying Type 93a torpedoes and is sunk in shallow water. Then Wake is successfully defended or never attacked - or at Midway a Japanese DD takes a bomb hit and is abandoned, presumed dead, only to be boarded by a technical crew from a US sub. Or, if you like, pretend Lexington is burning but the IJN boards her anyway just long enough to swipe elements of the radar array and oscilloscope.

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- 5/15/2002 5:49:34 AM

Hartmann

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Whatever you do, please don't make this into a "pirates" game ... ;) IMO the best idea is to restrict capturing to ships which are in a captured port and so badly damaged that they do no make more than say 5 knots. Maybe allow capturing at sea for the same sort of nearly wrecked ships if they are *alone* (after any escort was sunk or fled) AND the weapons are disabled.

Hartmann

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Didn't mean to make it that way - 5/15/2002 7:05:43 AM

Wasp

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Ok, I didn't mean to put too much emphasis on captured units that the it would take away from the game. Just like salt: Too much and it's bad, just enough and it makes it better. Like some people mentioned, it would be good to have it with some restrictions. For example a few conditions should have to be achieved in order for units to be captured: This should be something that a player doesn't play for, but should be more of a surprise type of factor in the game. Like I said, too much of anything is not good.

1. A surprise attack on a port: Should have 1/250 or 1/500 chance of capturing ships so that you don't end up capturing a whole fleet of ships? (the unit have to be trapped with no way out for this to happen) What do you think?

2. Ships that are sunk in shallow water, and not damaged too heavily (again maybe another ratio of 1/250, 1/500 or maybe even more?) should be allowed to be salvaged. (Of course the player should be penalized by being forced to dock the ship for a period of time for refit, repair, etc. (Perhaps a period of 10~16 months?). I know, this might upset some of you as being too an worthless idea, but just another idea for you guys out there. Plus just another option for the game? (All this could create more opportunities for both players.... Even though this favors the Japanese more due to their lack of shipbuilding)

I understand some of my ideas might be lame and crazy, but I just wanted to throw some ideas for everyone outhere. Give me some feedback, What do you think? All comments are welcome: Positive or negative. I'm all ears.

Cheers

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- 5/15/2002 7:27:45 AM

Supervisor

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[QUOTE]The US should be allowed it if Japan is allowed it.[/QUOTE]
Didn't say they couldn't, just that it would be more useful for the Japanese. No real point for the US, and, if the ship is sunk (most likely scenario), they wouldn't bother to raise her (not enough gain for the trouble). But if capture is included, then both sides should have the ability to so.

Maybe have a dialog box popup that states something like "x looks to be salvagable, do you wish to start salvage operations?". Then you say "Yes" or "No" and some of your base support personnel are made unavailable until the ship is afloat again (at which point it just becomes another damaged ship in port). At that point, the base personnel become available again. Salvage could be cancelled at any time to release the personnel immediately.

As for equipment like the torpedos, etc., those are easier to salvage than the whole ship.

As for the special ops on the 2 subs, they are too "special" to be valid possiblities. They fall in the "unique" class (as does the Doolittle raid, etc.). IMO, of course.

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- 5/15/2002 8:48:20 AM

Supervisor

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Just as an interesting side-note: while perusing a "dive" Truk site, of the 19 wrecks that are "divable" there, at least 2 (maybe 3) of the merchant ships are ships that were captured during the early days in 1942. With all the panic and disorganization at that time, there must have been more captures of merchant ships than I expected. But then, panic can do that. :D

Just FYI.

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