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RE: Valkyrie any good? - 12/31/2008 2:36:21 AM

wdolson

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GJK
Thank you-

I'm curious about the "Flying Tiger" war theme that was painted on the P-40 in the movie. I don't think that any were painted as such in the N. Africa campaign; would I be correct?

I haven't seen the movie yet, but if there were any in North Africa painted that was, they would have been rare. Planes did get diverted that were originally intended for other places. That's how the AVG ended up with their aircraft. The Med had its share of diverted orders too, but any aircraft arriving without desert equipment and desert camo would have been modified for the environment in Egypt upon arrival, including repainting. It would have been a rare situation where a plane was pushed to the front before it was repainted.

Bill

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RE: Valkyrie any good? - 12/31/2008 3:10:54 AM

Prince of Eckm�hl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

quote:

ORIGINAL: GJK
Thank you-

I'm curious about the "Flying Tiger" war theme that was painted on the P-40 in the movie. I don't think that any were painted as such in the N. Africa campaign; would I be correct?

I haven't seen the movie yet, but if there were any in North Africa painted that was, they would have been rare. Planes did get diverted that were originally intended for other places. That's how the AVG ended up with their aircraft. The Med had its share of diverted orders too, but any aircraft arriving without desert equipment and desert camo would have been modified for the environment in Egypt upon arrival, including repainting. It would have been a rare situation where a plane was pushed to the front before it was repainted.

Bill

The whole shark-theme came from Lend-Lease Commonwealth p-40 deployed to North Africa.

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RE: Valkyrie any good? - 12/31/2008 3:38:15 AM

GJK

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Ok, learn something new every day - per wikipedia:

quote:

AVG fighter aircraft were painted with a large shark face on the front of the aircraft. This was done after pilots saw a photograph of No. 112 Squadron RAF in North Africa sporting a fierce shark mouth, which in turn had adopted the shark motif from German pilots flying Messerschmitt Bf-110 fighters in Crete. About the same time, the AVG was dubbed "The Flying Tigers" by their Washington support group, called China Defense Supplies.

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Post #: 33

RE: Valkyrie any good? - 12/31/2008 5:08:35 AM

Mobius

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I saw it today. It is pretty good. I saw a History Channel program on Stauffenberg. His and Cruise's profile view are a very good match.

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RE: Valkyrie any good? - 12/31/2008 5:27:55 AM

V22 Osprey

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I liked the movie, very well done.

I must get it on DVD when it comes out.

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Post #: 35

RE: Valkyrie any good? - 1/1/2009 1:27:19 AM

Doggie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GJK

Perhaps some grog can answer this - did the "flying tiger" model actually fight in the N. Africa campaign?

It depends on which "flying tiger model" you mean. The P-40B used by the AVG was intended for the RAF:

But the P-40E was also used by the RAF and the AVG.

The type you're most likely to see in a movie would be the later P-40N:

Once the AVG had been incorporated into the U.S. Army Air Corps, they flew the P-40K

You'll notice obvious differences between the various types. It gets even more complicated when you throw in the 'M" and "L" versions with different engines and tail assemblies.

The so called "inferior" P-40 remained in production until the end of the war.

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RE: Valkyrie any good? - 1/1/2009 7:23:19 AM

JudgeDredd

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One of my favourite planes of WWII.

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Post #: 37

RE: Valkyrie any good? - 1/1/2009 9:24:57 AM

wdolson

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At least one of the P-40s in the movie was an E from the Warhawk Air Museum in Nampa, Idaho. This P-40 flies in the colors of No. 112 squadron RAF.

The P-40F had a Packard Merlin engine, but shortages of that engine forced Curtiss to go back to the Allison engine, which had similar performance at low altitude, but was a much poorer performer at altitude. The Merlin had a bottom mounted carburetor and the Allison had the carb on top (the DB 600 series and Jumo engines were fuel injected BTW). So Allison powered Mustangs and P-40s have a scoop on top of the cowling for the carb. Merlin powered planes don't have the scoop because the carburetor air is drawn into the scoop under the cowling.

The P-40M had a lengthened fuselage, but the horizontal stabilizer was in the same place, so the vertical and horizontal stabilizers are staggered with respect to one another. This was continued on the N (the N and M were very similar with different canopies). Earlier versions of the P-40 had the vertical and horizontal stabilizers pretty much in line with one another.

There are still some old P-40s around. Paul Allen, who was one of the founders of Microsoft has been collecting extremely rare aircraft. He has an Oscar I and an AVG P-40 that have both been restored to flying condition. Both were wrecks that were recovered in the last 20 years.

Additionally, the Yanks Air Museum in Chino, CA has a P-40E-1 that I believe saw combat in the early days of the war.

Bill

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RE: Valkyrie any good? - 1/2/2009 8:19:16 PM

Hard Sarge

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GJK

quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

quote:

ORIGINAL: GJK

Perhaps some grog can answer this - did the "flying tiger" model actually fight in the N. Africa campaign?

The specific model that the AVG used were diverted from a British order or Tomahawks (which is the British name for the early model P-40, the B and C). The P-40D and later were called Kittyhawks by the British. Both the Tomahawk and Kittyhawk fought in North Africa with the RAF.

North African Tomahawks and Kittyhawks were painted two tone brown on top and light blue on the bottom. The AVG's aircraft were painted in a green and brown scheme on top, which was the early war British Northern Europe scheme. The late war Northern Europe scheme was gray and green.

Bill

Thank you-

I'm curious about the "Flying Tiger" war theme that was painted on the P-40 in the movie. I don't think that any were painted as such in the N. Africa campaign; would I be correct?

not seen the movie or the Planes, but are you asking about the sharkmouths ? if so, that would be 112 Squadron, who flew in the desert with the Kittyhawks and the sharkmouth, basicly, the AVG seen a pic of 112 in a Mag (Life ?) and liked it

which if you really dig into it, most Airforces ended up with Sharkmouths on something they flew, the LW flew Bf 110s and Ju 87s with the Sharkmouth also

(also have seen Spits and La's with them added, the P-51 and later F-4 Phantoms)

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RE: Valkyrie any good? - 1/2/2009 8:21:31 PM

Hard Sarge

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LOL, figures, should of finished the whole post, before replying, as the it was already replied to :)

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Post #: 40

RE: Valkyrie any good? - 1/2/2009 10:51:24 PM

Doggie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hgilmer3

I had some acquaintances tell me that Cruise did the German accent well and while watching the movie, I thought, "What accent?"� They're speaking in English but supposed to be speaking German which is fine, but I am unsure what that person was talking about when they said he did the accent well.� Maybe they meant at the beginning when he spoke in German for a few sentences.�

Villians always speak with English accents. If you remember the original Mission Impossible the bad guys always spoke generic European with an english accent. Generic European was the language used in the ubiquitous eastern bloc totalitarian countries which needed some covert assistance from the IMF.

The standard German accent has been overdone to the point of absurdity. And besides, that's reserved for movies about modern day terrorists. See Sum of all Fears and Die Hard for reference. For pure unrepentent evil, always go to the Germans. I know I'm always afraid some German tourist will blow himself up after failing to find a biergarten at Disneyworld.

But this is about good Germans, and if they all spoke with German accents, even the good guys would sound evil.

So if Cruise is a good guy, he will of course speak American accented english. Which only makes sense, as everyone knows the English are evil. You could hardly have a villian who sounds like Andy Griffith. A Scotch accent would make ther Germans sound like drunken hooligans, and that would hardly do. Nobody believes anyone from Scotland could stay sober long enough to plot world domination.

Same goes for Australians. "Crikey, mates! Better throw another hostage on the barbie" Nobody is going to buy that. Canandians, eh? Nope, everybody would be laughing themselves silly at a Canadian Nazi. You got to hear a Canadian accent to believe it, and it'll leave you rolling in the aisles. Even baby seals can hardly keep from giggling as they're being bludgeoned to death.

Only an English accent can provide the proper degree of arrogance, pomposity and pretentiousness needed to convey the illusion of villiany. Hear that? That's an Englishman harummphing. Only villians harummpfh.

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RE: Valkyrie any good? - 1/3/2009 12:13:16 AM

Jeffrey H.

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In before the lock !

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RE: Valkyrie any good? - 1/3/2009 12:47:48 AM

sabre1

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Just saw the movie. It's a decent enough moive, but yes I could have waited until it came out on DVD. It was a father and son (down from college) thing to do.

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RE: Valkyrie any good? - 1/3/2009 3:01:32 AM

hgilmer3

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Doggie

quote:

ORIGINAL: hgilmer3

I had some acquaintances tell me that Cruise did the German accent well and while watching the movie, I thought, "What accent?"� They're speaking in English but supposed to be speaking German which is fine, but I am unsure what that person was talking about when they said he did the accent well.� Maybe they meant at the beginning when he spoke in German for a few sentences.�

Villians always speak with English accents. If you remember the original Mission Impossible the bad guys always spoke generic European with an english accent. Generic European was the language used in the ubiquitous eastern bloc totalitarian countries which needed some covert assistance from the IMF.

The standard German accent has been overdone to the point of absurdity. And besides, that's reserved for movies about modern day terrorists. See Sum of all Fears and Die Hard for reference. For pure unrepentent evil, always go to the Germans. I know I'm always afraid some German tourist will blow himself up after failing to find a biergarten at Disneyworld.

But this is about good Germans, and if they all spoke with German accents, even the good guys would sound evil.

So if Cruise is a good guy, he will of course speak American accented english. Which only makes sense, as everyone knows the English are evil. You could hardly have a villian who sounds like Andy Griffith. A Scotch accent would make ther Germans sound like drunken hooligans, and that would hardly do. Nobody believes anyone from Scotland could stay sober long enough to plot world domination.

Same goes for Australians. "Crikey, mates! Better throw another hostage on the barbie" Nobody is going to buy that. Canandians, eh? Nope, everybody would be laughing themselves silly at a Canadian Nazi. You got to hear a Canadian accent to believe it, and it'll leave you rolling in the aisles. Even baby seals can hardly keep from giggling as they're being bludgeoned to death.

Only an English accent can provide the proper degree of arrogance, pomposity and pretentiousness needed to convey the illusion of villiany. Hear that? That's an Englishman harummphing. Only villians harummpfh.

Haha that's good stuff. Old men sometimes Harrumph, though.

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RE: Valkyrie any good? - 1/3/2009 3:23:11 AM

wdolson

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Yet Americans are also conditioned to find British accents classy from two generations of the best of the BBC showing up on American PBS television.

I once worked with a guy who had a very low class Scottish accent, but was quite intelligent. He said that in the UK, he couldn't get a date to save his life, but when he moved to the US, women found him interesting and exotic because of the accent. I know another English immigrant who's life is practically documented on the show Shameless and he's had a similar experience in the US.

I also have an Australian friend and immigrant who sounds like Crocodile Dundee and Americans are drawn to him because of his accent (more than half of the population in this country can't tell the difference between an Australian and British accent). He's working part time as a bar tender and he tends to get better tips than anyone else working there.

I do agree that the villian in movies sometimes has a British accent and the private school accent can lend an air of arrogance to a character, but Americans also love anyone with anything close to a British accent (this includes Irish, Scottish, South African, Australian, and New Zealand).

Bill

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RE: Valkyrie any good? - 1/3/2009 3:33:59 AM

Hard Sarge

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okay, it is off topic and all, but speaking of accents, I used to do a lot of online flying, in a combat sim, one of my friends was from Oz, and we used to love getting on the headset with him, talk about sounding like Crocodile Dundee, and so, nice and polite

"ahh, hold on mate, I got a blighter trying to dive on my 6........, ah, okay, you may go on now, he is finished, silly bugger"

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RE: Valkyrie any good? - 1/3/2009 3:47:37 AM

Jeffrey H.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

Yet Americans are also conditioned to find British accents classy from two generations of the best of the BBC showing up on American PBS television.

I once worked with a guy who had a very low class Scottish accent, but was quite intelligent.� He said that in the UK, he couldn't get a date to save his life, but when he moved to the US, women found him interesting and exotic because of the accent.� I know another English immigrant who's life is practically documented on the show Shameless and he's had a similar experience in the US.

I also have an Australian friend and immigrant who sounds like Crocodile Dundee and Americans are drawn to him because of his accent (more than half of the population in this country can't tell the difference between an Australian and British accent).� He's working part time as a bar tender and he tends to get better tips than anyone else working there.

I do agree that the villian in movies sometimes has a British accent and the private school accent can lend an air of arrogance to a character, but Americans also love anyone with anything close to a British accent (this includes Irish, Scottish, South African, Australian, and New Zealand).

Bill

I traveled around a bit and can tell the difference between them all, but I tel you it's not easy, especially between the Kiwi's and the South Africans. But there usually is a difference.

As for arrogance, the Inidans, using feigned British accents can be awfully high up there on the arrogance scale. But villany is not their thing at all.

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RE: Valkyrie any good? - 1/3/2009 4:31:23 AM

Doggie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

Yet Americans are also conditioned to find British accents classy from two generations of the best of the BBC showing up on American PBS television.

Showing your youth there. The idea that a British accent is "sophisticated" predates PBS. It's a leftover from the age of bluebloods in the northeastern United States. A true sophisticate could show his proper breeding by his bloodline, traced back generations to proper English stock, with no Irish riff raff polluting the gene pool.

Having been to England, as well as New England I can assure you that an accent is no indication of intelligence. There are plenty of simpletons with an Oxford accent.

quote:

He said that in the UK, he couldn't get a date to save his life, but when he moved to the US, women found him interesting and exotic because of the accent.

It works just as well for Americans in Europe. I know from experience that Euro babes love them some southern fried G.I.s.

quote:

(more than half of the population in this country can't tell the difference between an Australian and British accent).

Sure you can. Australians are English hillbillies. It's easy to tell them apart, especially the sheilas. Australian women can cuss for twenty minutes and never repeat themselves. They got your back in a bar brawl as well.

�

< Message edited by Doggie -- 1/3/2009 4:33:34 AM >

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RE: Valkyrie any good? - 1/3/2009 9:28:55 AM

pasternakski

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Doggie
Villians ... villian ... villiany ... Only villians harummpfh.

Some of 'em might even be villains. In another time, they could have been villeins (you could look it up).

I'm getting tired of having to play Rickles to your Hockey Puck, dawg.

Harrumph.

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RE: Valkyrie any good? - 1/3/2009 1:19:16 PM

wdolson

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson
Yet Americans are also conditioned to find British accents classy from two generations of the best of the BBC showing up on American PBS television.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Doggie
Showing your youth there. The idea that a British accent is "sophisticated" predates PBS. It's a leftover from the age of bluebloods in the northeastern United States. A true sophisticate could show his proper breeding by his bloodline, traced back generations to proper English stock, with no Irish riff raff polluting the gene pool.

Having been to England, as well as New England I can assure you that an accent is no indication of intelligence. There are plenty of simpletons with an Oxford accent.

I'm familiar with the phenomenon you talk about, but I haven't experienced it, having lived my whole life on the left coast.

I think there is an East Coast/West Coast split there. The West Coast aristocracy never took on the British accent. I went to school with a Bay Area blue blood and there was a haughty tone in her accent that was unique to the Bay Area and her socio economic class, but it wasn't British.

The Anglophila was there among some Northeasterners before PBS, but it's PBS that made it a national phenomenon.

quote:

He said that in the UK, he couldn't get a date to save his life, but when he moved to the US, women found him interesting and exotic because of the accent.

quote:

It works just as well for Americans in Europe. I know from experience that Euro babes love them some southern fried G.I.s.

That too. I have a friend from Israel who came to the US for the first time last year. She was born in Russia, moved to Israel when she was 5 or 6, and her parents don't speak a word of English. She taught herself English and she is such a natural linquist that she has two accents she does, one is an upper middle class London accent and the other is a sort of generic New York City accent. She goes into them like switching a channel and it's flawless. The Americans who met her couldn't believe she had never been to the US before.

She said when she's in London, she usually uses her American accent because she found people treat her better. She once met up with a cousin in London who had lived in England most of her life and my friend felt silly speaking with her American accent so she closed her eyes for a second and switched to her London accent.

quote:

(more than half of the population in this country can't tell the difference between an Australian and British accent).

quote:

Sure you can. Australians are English hillbillies. It's easy to tell them apart, especially the sheilas. Australian women can cuss for twenty minutes and never repeat themselves. They got your back in a bar brawl as well.

The working class Aussies are easy to spot, but you have to be aware of more subtleties to spot the educated Australian accent. It's much more British. I'm pretty good with accents and I can spot it (when I was in college, I could tell what part of California people came from by their accents, something that usually shocked my classmates), but most Americans couldn't tell the difference.

Bill

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RE: Valkyrie any good? - 1/3/2009 5:18:05 PM

SlickWilhelm

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While I enjoyed Valkyrie very much, I wish the same team that made "Der Untergang" would've made Valkyrie, using real German actors speaking German.

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RE: Valkyrie any good? - 1/14/2009 4:56:15 PM

John 3rd

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Just took my Father to see the film yesterday and was thoroughly surprised at how good it was. The detail was excellent and I felt the suspense side of the movie was quite well done.

Ohhhhh be it for the bomb being closer to Hitler or the second block being in the satchel, or the meeting being in the bunker, or...

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RE: Valkyrie any good? - 1/15/2009 9:49:46 PM

pixelpusher

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I saw Valkyrie last weekend and enjoyed it. Interesting subject matter, well handled.
Because of the sound, I found the movie sort of a stomach-wrenching experience. The did a lot of loud low-frequency things which you just feel in your gut, and adds to the perception of anxiety. (So, I guess, don't go to the all-you-can-eat Sushi Buffet before hand.)

Downfall was also very good. Also recommend The Lives of Others

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RE: Valkyrie any good? - 1/25/2009 9:19:29 AM

JudgeDredd

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Wanted to bump this to say I went to see it yesterday with meine tochter and I was pleasantly surprised. I thought it was well done.

Not knowing anything outside of "a bomb was planted in The Bunker to assassinate Hitler", it got me wondering so will be looking for some facts on the attempt...and that's a good thing for history. ...for example, I never knew it was one of 15 attempts on Hitlers life! No wonder he became increasingly distrustful of his commanders!

Anyway, it got me thinking and now I want to know more about it, and the other attempts on Hitlers life....good film, well made, Tom Cruise as always acted very well (I know he's not everyones cup of tea, but I think he's a very good actor).

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RE: Valkyrie any good? - 1/26/2009 12:55:48 AM

Raverdave

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

but you have to be aware of more subtleties to spot the educated Australian accent.

Ah maaaate, eys didnst now ther waz any sucfing ayz an egdeicated aussie.

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RE: Valkyrie any good? - 1/26/2009 2:22:27 PM

sterckxe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd
Not knowing anything outside of "a bomb was planted in The Bunker to assassinate Hitler", it got me wondering so will be looking for some facts on the attempt...and that's a good thing for history. ...for example, I never knew it was one of 15 attempts on Hitlers life! No wonder he became increasingly distrustful of his commanders!

Well, but only like 2 went beyond "talking out loud about your idea to toss a handgrenade through the window when his car happened to pass by" - in other words : not serious at all. The other one is Georg Esler's attempt - bomb - killed 8 people, but the target had finished his speech early and left.

So, our pal Adolf was lucky, but not extraordinarily so, in surviving both attempts.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

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RE: Valkyrie any good? - 1/26/2009 9:09:42 PM

Dennistoun

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Another REAL attempt was on March 12 or 13th 1943 when Hitler was visiting his troops at an airfield in Smolensk. Apparently, on his way back (by airplane) he was to be blown out the sky by a bomb planted by Dohnanyi and some other fella (Osster or something like that). The bomb failed to go off because with the weather being so cold, it affected the mechanism of the bomb.
The source of this information was a program called "Hitler's Generals" on Discovery Knowledge featuring the career of Admiral Canaris.

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RE: Valkyrie any good? - 1/26/2009 9:59:27 PM

JudgeDredd

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That attempt was actually depicted in the film!

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RE: Valkyrie any good? - 1/26/2009 10:04:28 PM

anarchyintheuk

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I think the 'walking up to him, pulling a gun and shooting him' plan would have been less speculative than the attempts made.

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RE: Valkyrie any good? - 1/26/2009 10:26:08 PM

Canoerebel

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The consensus seems to be that it's a decent movie. Given the nature of the Matrix Forums inhabitants (lovers of history and therefore realism) I think this consensus is fairly remarkable. It also matches the non-Matrix reviews I've seen in newspapers. So I'll bite and see the movie. If it turns out to be (1) Dances with Wolves; (2) Cold Mountain, or (3) The Patriot, I'm gonna haunt you guys!

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