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WIA AI disappointing - 1/18/2009 8:21:51 PM

JastaV

Posts: 97
Joined: 9/20/2008
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I played "Few acres of snow scenario" twice, Christmas Patch 1.04 udpated.

Logistic effort to grant the sufficient support and prevent attrition losses in wild terrains and in harsh weather conditions is the real challenge in the game.

Now, I sent a stack to advance deph in enemy wild areas. Then it came winter weather: in a couple of turns the stack,but leaders was fully wiped out.
It's okay. That the way thing are expected to go.
So the lesson: keep your forces sheltered in winter turn or you'll loose them!

Unfortunately, AI is missing the smartess to take in account attrition losses.
I saw it happened already many times.
AI forces keep besieging player forts, being unsupported and in harsh weather condition: in a few turns are heavily depleted. Then a sortie of a weak force of mine can easely finish them.
Other times AI forces keep running the map in enemy territory, without supply and shelter in the worst winter weather: they are depleted to destruction too.

I already reported the same issue in the past as regard BoA and in relation to NCP too.
I'm disappointed to notice it has not been improved yet.

I can accept AI to be not so smart to build up a long term strategy planning on a wide campaign as "Few acres of snow scenario".
But here the matter is quite different: attrition is a game rules. AI should be able to move while aware of its effects.

To help problem clarification and fixing I collected some screenshot to fully documentate an example.

I was playing British side.
To my offensive against Montreal and Quebeck French (AI side) forces replyed movining eastward in wild terrein. It was November turn and winter was coming. In next turns rather then looking for shelter AI forces kept on the field and wend soon decimated.
BTW, with their move in the wilderness to the southeasterd AI left Montreal unscreened and I could easely occupy it.

It's sad to be said but the campaign is not decided by fine planning but by AI mistakes.

In more than an example AI forced had just to keep control of major objectives, (as Montreal and Quebeck). Instead AI move in open fields, to be destroyed by attrition.

Post #: 1

RE: WIA AI disappointing - 1/18/2009 11:43:01 PM

GShock

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From: San Francisco, CA - USA
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I've seen in 1.04 an AI working much more offensively so much that i really had serious problems with Braddock and failed to get his objective he got recalled back. Never happened earlier but since i stopped so soon after the supply unit bug i can't relate to this particular side of the AI play.

From what i've read in the AgeOD forums, the AI has new commands that have been applied to the RC6 of AACW and the WiA coordinator has already asked for these commands to be implemented into WiA. Perhaps a similar command is needed to teach the AI to take shelter in winter...from your report it looks like it's a distinct necessity and i'd be happy to wait further for 1.05 if this issue was solved. Anyway from what i've read this command could already be appropriate for the situation you described.

I did not notice this behavior in winter, but back in September i had reported the need for the AI to plan on a turn/turn basis instead of setting off towards an obj and then coming back thus depleting cohesion and getting nothing in return. You never know what weather awaits you ahead in a "more than 30 day long" move but you can go back if you move on a "30 by 30" move...

... in other words, a player will not make a move if its time is beyond 30 days, unless it's summer and the player is certain there's no enemy forces around. The AI lacks this "limiter" currently.

Anyway let's see what the guys at AgeOD think about this.

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(in reply to JastaV)

Post #: 2

RE: WIA AI disappointing - 1/19/2009 12:40:31 PM

JastaV

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Joined: 9/20/2008
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AI management and improvement is quite complex, have to admit that.
We need an AI able to foresee and plan a long term strategy to get a credible AI opponent.
On the other hand, we have to consider that the strategic grand-picture can change at any point during a campaign: AI should be able to evaluate such changes and react accordingly.

The AI management of supply and movements so to prevent heavy attrition losses is a different matter: attrition is a game feature introduced in the game at its origin and it's expect to be a cornerstone in game logic. I expect AI should be able to coexist, plan and react accordingly to basic game logic: without that, AI is useless and playing in single mode a time wasting.

Notice, but ground warfare analogous troubles could be referred to naval warfare: AI is keeping fleets on see even when heavilly damaged and unsupplied when insted AI shouls move such units at friendly harbours to recover damage and supply.

(in reply to GShock)

Post #: 3

RE: WIA AI disappointing - 1/22/2009 9:51:14 PM

Blueprint

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Joined: 8/26/2003
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AI is submitted to the same leader activation rules than players: so when playing with hardened activation option as it is the case as much I understood from another thread, some leaders will not be able to move at all. That's at last a possibility not explored in this test....

Partiality is leading to serious holes in methodology....

Fortunatly, the AGEOD support is outstanding:

http://www.birth-of-america2.com/ageod/forums/showthread.php?t=10158

So if in any case AI is yet a little too fond of "russian campaigns" operations, I guess it will be adressed

(in reply to JastaV)

Post #: 4

RE: WIA AI disappointing - 1/23/2009 1:30:02 AM

GShock

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From: San Francisco, CA - USA
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Well...technically speaking the player cannot see the movement paths (and times) of the AI armies. In WiA's winter, without trains or roads, it takes ages to move especially over rough terrain and there's less control over supply consumption because turns are 30 days long. Might be that the AI resets moves when they are not complete yet so it SEEMS it's stuck there and losing to attrition while it actually moves but the move takes more than 30 days.

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Post #: 5

RE: WIA AI disappointing - 1/23/2009 11:29:03 AM

JastaV

Posts: 97
Joined: 9/20/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Blueprint

AI is submitted to the same leader activation rules than players: so when playing with hardened activation option as it is the case as much I understood from another thread, some leaders will not be able to move at all. That's at last a possibility not explored in this test....

Partiality is leading to serious holes in methodology....

To clarify some points, with hope helping understanding and fixing troubles here are some setting I used when playing the scenario.

-Historical Attrition: Standard setting, (AFAIK Historical Attrition should not influence movements and leaders activation).

-Activation Rule: middle difficulty. Ground forces will have movement and combat penalties when stack leader is inactive. AFAIK, It does not mean inactive forces are inhibited to move at all.

Please note, as I already pointed out the "direction of the move attempted by AI is "wrong": at the start of harsh winter season AI forces should move to take shelter at a friendly controlled town or fortress rather than attempting advancing in depth in enemy territory!

(in reply to Blueprint)

Post #: 6

RE: WIA AI disappointing - 1/23/2009 12:04:05 PM

dunnsa

Posts: 75
Joined: 7/28/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JastaV

quote:

ORIGINAL: Blueprint

AI is submitted to the same leader activation rules than players: so when playing with hardened activation option as it is the case as much I understood from another thread, some leaders will not be able to move at all. That's at last a possibility not explored in this test....

Partiality is leading to serious holes in methodology....

To clarify some points, with hope helping understanding and fixing troubles here are some setting I used when playing the scenario.

-Historical Attrition: Standard setting, (AFAIK Historical Attrition should not influence movements and leaders activation).

-Activation Rule: middle difficulty. Ground forces will have movement and combat penalties when stack leader is inactive. AFAIK, It does not mean inactive forces are inhibited to move at all.

Please note, as I already pointed out the "direction of the move attempted by AI is "wrong": at the start of harsh winter season AI forces should move to take shelter at a friendly controlled town or fortress rather than attempting advancing in depth in enemy territory!

In this case, a save game is worth 1000 pictures.

In your screenshots, the AI may be trying to move north toward shelter at Aisle aux Noix.
The stack appears to include artillery and supply wagons, which move very slowly in Winter, paticularly through Mountains and Wilderness

The issue does NOT seem to be that the AI is failing to seek shelter, but rather that it is far out in difficult terrain at winter's onset.
Preventing this behaviour is IMHO much trickier than 'seek shelter in winter'

The dev team will need to closely examine the AI logs and decision logic to address this....
Please send save game of the entire sequence you depict [include at least 2 turns prior to you first screen] to support@ageod.com
Please include in your email the situation [to remind team what to look for]

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(in reply to JastaV)

Post #: 7

RE: WIA AI disappointing - 1/23/2009 8:36:52 PM

JastaV

Posts: 97
Joined: 9/20/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: lodilefty

quote:

ORIGINAL: JastaV

quote:

ORIGINAL: Blueprint

AI is submitted to the same leader activation rules than players: so when playing with hardened activation option as it is the case as much I understood from another thread, some leaders will not be able to move at all. That's at last a possibility not explored in this test....

Partiality is leading to serious holes in methodology....

To clarify some points, with hope helping understanding and fixing troubles here are some setting I used when playing the scenario.

-Historical Attrition: Standard setting, (AFAIK Historical Attrition should not influence movements and leaders activation).

-Activation Rule: middle difficulty. Ground forces will have movement and combat penalties when stack leader is inactive. AFAIK, It does not mean inactive forces are inhibited to move at all.

Please note, as I already pointed out the "direction of the move attempted by AI is "wrong": at the start of harsh winter season AI forces should move to take shelter at a friendly controlled town or fortress rather than attempting advancing in depth in enemy territory!

In this case, a save game is worth 1000 pictures.

In your screenshots, the AI may be trying to move north toward shelter at Aisle aux Noix.
The stack appears to include artillery and supply wagons, which move very slowly in Winter, paticularly through Mountains and Wilderness

The issue does NOT seem to be that the AI is failing to seek shelter, but rather that it is far out in difficult terrain at winter's onset.
Preventing this behaviour is IMHO much trickier than 'seek shelter in winter'

The dev team will need to closely examine the AI logs and decision logic to address this....
Please send save game of the entire sequence you depict [include at least 2 turns prior to you first screen] to support@ageod.com
Please include in your email the situation [to remind team what to look for]

I already stated I have saves for two "Few Acres of Snow" campaigns played to conclusion in my HD.
I'll be pleased to send you any saved turn of interest.
I'll manage to isolate and send you saved files for the turns I quoted, based over dates: 1759 november-1760 march.
According to your request I'll send few turns before and later too: 1759 september-1760 may.... could work?
Just a tip, (I have not WIA at hands now, I cannot check!): what's the exact way to identify 1759 september & 1760 may game turn?

(in reply to dunnsa)

Post #: 8

RE: WIA AI disappointing - 1/23/2009 9:22:04 PM

dunnsa

Posts: 75
Joined: 7/28/2008
Status: offline

No easy way to identify a specific turn, as the save folder nnumbers increment each turn.
You have to count backward from the date of the last turn saved

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Visit the AGE Wiki at http://www.ageod.net/agewiki/Main_Page

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Post #: 9

RE: WIA AI disappointing - 1/24/2009 10:55:05 AM

Stwa

Posts: 484
Joined: 8/12/2005
Status: offline

My guess would be that the attrition, winter movement, activation, passive or agressive AI, as it stands in WIA, is probably all WAD.

But, ya never know.

But my beeg time suggestion, for better gameplay, and an AI that can be selected to be passive or aggressive, return to BoA v 1.12a.

(in reply to dunnsa)

Post #: 10

RE: WIA AI disappointing - 1/24/2009 11:10:01 AM

dunnsa

Posts: 75
Joined: 7/28/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stwa

<snip>

But my beeg time suggestion, for better gameplay, and an AI that can be selected to be passive or aggressive, return to BoA v 1.12a.

I'm confused

{my normal state

}
The AI Agressiveness option is and always has been there in WIA Main Menu.
Additionally, we are adjusting AI Agression and 'Interest in regions' via events in the scenarios.....

Yes BoA is a good game too. Much simpler logistics. Mega stacks can march long distances with impunity.

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Post #: 11

RE: WIA AI disappointing - 1/24/2009 1:35:53 PM

Stwa

Posts: 484
Joined: 8/12/2005
Status: offline

Lodi,

It just depends on what you want as a player. I think if you set the aggressive slider on low in WiA you still get a fairly aggressive AI. An AI that probably had its roots in the ACW game. A lot of players were requesting more aggression.

Stwa prefers a more laid back, "do less", 18th Century style AI, where the AI could park a beeg force in Montreal and never move it (winter, spring, summer, or fall). You sometimes get this behavior in low aggression settings in BoA 1.12a. (Me thinks)

Oh, I almost forgot, I modded the track system out of my BoA game. You would be surprised how this one mod, which brought the game back to more of Phils original design, keeps stuff from wandering around in the wilderness areas, no matter what the season. Since the AI generally tries to compute the fastest route to a destination, eliminating the tracks network pretty much insures wilderness areas are not selected as a part of the route. Don't you remember people whining about how long it took Arnold to march to Quebec in the Game. After enough whining, Pocus came up with the Track Network.

Oh, and eliminating movement all together in winter, would NOT be a good idea, IMHO. Not that I am worried this will be happening any time soon.

The AI, on many occassions, will attempt to create a stack sufficient in size, to defeat the players stack. So If a player tries to make a mega stack, the AI will try to match it and attack it. This just makes the game that much more fun, since you have opportunities for giant game breaking battles. I have seen many of them while playing the game over the years, and they never seem to disapoint.

Also, when tracks are eliminated, mega stacks can't really use wilderness areas, since siege artillery, supply wagons, or even horses do not dig travelling in the wilderness.

< Message edited by Stwa -- 1/24/2009 2:43:40 PM >

(in reply to dunnsa)

Post #: 12

RE: WIA AI disappointing - 1/24/2009 2:27:14 PM

dunnsa

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Joined: 7/28/2008
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Cool stuff Stwa!

How about publishing your changes as a mod?

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Post #: 13

RE: WIA AI disappointing - 1/24/2009 2:51:32 PM

Stwa

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Joined: 8/12/2005
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If you are talking about the track system mod, it could be implemmented for WIA by you or me (or anyone for that matter), fairly quickly if memory servers me right. You just edit each of the region or city sheets and substitue "No Network" for "Tracks". But the downer is, you may have to "re-compile" every scenario. (I can't really remember).

If this works for WiA, then you could just add it as extra content at Ageod site, since no graphics are involved, and you will get feedback soon enough, if it creates a desirable effect or not. Remember, most people want things to move quicker. Remember the guys that wanted us to figure out how to "build" tracks. But when tracks are eliminated one other good side effect, is waterway movement becomes more important.

(in reply to dunnsa)

Post #: 14

RE: WIA AI disappointing - 1/31/2009 5:05:30 PM

JastaV

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Joined: 9/20/2008
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GShock comments over last beta patch are very positive and seems to fix troubles I reported up here:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2018148

I just patched my WIA installation and I'm going to start a new scenario with hope to confirm all positive findings.

(in reply to Stwa)

Post #: 15