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RE: Only tweaking is left

 
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RE: Only tweaking is left - 2/14/2009 8:13:00 PM   
JWE

 

Posts: 6580
Joined: 7/19/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveB
Personally I think this is all getting to be rather beyond a joke, this expansion should be grabbed by the scruff of its neck and brought to market - as a mere customer my impression is that it's become a private plaything of the beta testers, and that nobody gives a hoot about the uncomfortable period it has overrun release estimate by.... I feel that Matrix are being rather complacent about their market, which was always going to be pretty small to begin with. Please don't bother with the 'do you want a bugged version on time or a fixed one later' rubbish - properly managed projects include bugtesting time.

Sorry to sound all grumpy, but I care about WITP and I'm beginning to think the 3 Stooges are managing it.

Yep, Larry, Moe and Curly.

You are now on the green button. Bovine feces don't go anywhere near far enuf.

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Post #: 61
RE: Only tweaking is left - 2/14/2009 8:25:54 PM   
DaveB


Posts: 151
Joined: 8/4/2003
From: Forres Scotland
Status: offline 		Okay,
you win - it's normal to estimate 'on the shelves' in 8 months and to be apparently still an unknown distance in the future 14 months later.

My apologies to anybody else I upset, I genuinely find it bizzarre to have been reading AARs for months while the projected release date falls further and further into the past.

(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 62
RE: Only tweaking is left - 2/14/2009 8:36:39 PM   
51st Highland Div


Posts: 347
Joined: 7/23/2005
From: Glasgow,Scotland
Status: offline 		Still waiting for Duke Nukem Forever...nearly 10 years later lol  Just means more time spend honing (lack of) skills on Witp and thats playing the AI not an opponent..

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(in reply to DaveB)
Post #: 63
RE: Only tweaking is left - 2/14/2009 9:07:01 PM   
wworld7


Posts: 1727
Joined: 2/25/2003
From: The Nutmeg State
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveB

Okay,
you win - it's normal to estimate 'on the shelves' in 8 months and to be apparently still an unknown distance in the future 14 months later.

My apologies to anybody else I upset, I genuinely find it bizzarre to have been reading AARs for months while the projected release date falls further and further into the past.


Seeing AARs for months is not bizzarre if you understand programming at all. It does not mean the project is completed or even very near completion. All it means is that we are lucky enough to get a peek at what part of the team is working on. It is not playing for fun, it is the work that is required to make certain that WITP-AE works well upon release.

If you have been following all of the annoucements since the 1st one you would have seen how the "schedule" took a big hit when it was seen that in order to get things to work as desired a major re-write involving the AI was needed. Your saying that time for this should have been included in the original estimate is your right. But that in no way means you are correct or wrong.

You want WITP-AE now, I would like it now. But we both would scream bloody murder if it was released and was full of bugs. So the only viable option to me to get the best product is to let them test, test and test again. Rushing it to market is not a sound strategy.

Be well,




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Flipper

(in reply to DaveB)
Post #: 64
RE: Only tweaking is left - 2/14/2009 9:27:27 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveB

Okay,
you win - it's normal to estimate 'on the shelves' in 8 months and to be apparently still an unknown distance in the future 14 months later.

My apologies to anybody else I upset, I genuinely find it bizzarre to have been reading AARs for months while the projected release date falls further and further into the past.



Based on what passes for "normal" these days, normal just isn't good enough.

(in reply to DaveB)
Post #: 65
RE: Only tweaking is left - 2/14/2009 9:30:56 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		When was it ever? Especially when people screaming about "normality" have no idea what they're talking about...

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Post #: 66
RE: Only tweaking is left - 2/14/2009 9:35:10 PM   
CV Zuikaku

 

Posts: 442
Joined: 12/18/2008
From: Legrad, Croatia
Status: offline 		I think we are all getting a bit too nervous! We saw those AArs, and that made us berserk

(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 67
RE: Only tweaking is left - 2/14/2009 9:42:45 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Unfortunately, not everybody is going berserk with a sense of humour. It's almost there, people. REALLY.

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Post #: 68
RE: Only tweaking is left - 2/14/2009 9:44:27 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish

Rushing it to market is not a sound strategy.



Exactly. Look what happened to AGEOD's WWI game, rushed out to meet the 11/11 date, and unplayable.

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Post #: 69
RE: Only tweaking is left - 2/14/2009 9:48:41 PM   
DaveB


Posts: 151
Joined: 8/4/2003
From: Forres Scotland
Status: offline 		Well the PR and boxart was out 14 months ago, maybe I am dreadfully wrong to wish that for once somebody would assume that the code should be given the same priority.

As for your last point T, I actually have had two commercial releases of software under my own name (and one non commercial), and whilst I wouldn't claim that they've been stupendously momentous occasions in the history of software I wouldn't classify myself as a complete beginner either. (All on time, by the way, two of them in areas where errors have serious consequences beyond your TF gaining a Japanese CO).

I stand by my original point - these countless pages of 'this is what it's like' and 'this is how my latest AAR went' suggest a lot of beta testers having fun while everything is endlessly tweaked - that isn't a good sign.

(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 70
RE: Only tweaking is left - 2/14/2009 9:49:15 PM   
CV Zuikaku

 

Posts: 442
Joined: 12/18/2008
From: Legrad, Croatia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Unfortunately, not everybody is going berserk with a sense of humour. It's almost there, people. REALLY.


Take your time, we can wait for another year or two!
And now, it is the time to put my flak jacket on and duck for cover! Incoming!

(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 71
RE: Only tweaking is left - 2/14/2009 9:56:04 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Quite frankly, DaveB, I don't care how many software projects you've done. You're not in this one, so you don't know what you're talking about.

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We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

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Post #: 72
RE: Only tweaking is left - 2/14/2009 10:00:34 PM   
pompack


Posts: 2582
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: University Park, Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveB

..and this "The Admiral’s Edition expansion is currently scheduled for an early Summer, 2008 release." was therefore PR spin, or somebody not appreciating what the job entailed - both are still under the general heading of management of the project Don.




Green button time again

(in reply to DaveB)
Post #: 73
RE: Only tweaking is left - 2/14/2009 10:06:22 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

Posts: 5475
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline 		What this moron, and yes I will call him a moron, doesnt seem to realize (although it has been said time and time again on the boards) is none of us are being paid to work on this and thus isnt a "formal project" that needs a budget and beancounters beating our brows. It has taken longer to do than a "normal" project simply because we have real jobs and other issues that dont allow us to each work on this 40 - 60 - 80 hours a week.

Private to DaveB: Put together your own team and do your own thing. No one is stopping you. I mean clearly you have the knowledge and skills to do it in no time flat since you see fit to comment on it. Have at it, I will be happy to see what you come up with. Take care.

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Post #: 74
RE: Only tweaking is left - 2/14/2009 10:10:31 PM   
Dixie


Posts: 10303
Joined: 3/10/2006
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Quite frankly, DaveB, I don't care how many software projects you've done. You're not in this one, so you don't know what you're talking about.


It's too late Terminus, I now have a new hero and idol

You don't need me to say it, but just keep plugging away chaps, no-one wants a horrible buggy game released too early. Except Dave maybe?

P.S. Now?

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Bigger boys stole my sig

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Post #: 75
RE: Only tweaking is left - 2/14/2009 10:11:48 PM   
Captain Cruft


Posts: 3652
Joined: 3/17/2004
From: England
Status: offline 		It was clear when this was announced that it would be a long time coming. That's why I bugged out for a while and only started looking at the forums again recently.

When you look at all the goodness thus far revealed, I really cannot see how any form of complaint is even remotely justified. They're doing it in their spare time!

(in reply to Yamato hugger)
Post #: 76
RE: Only tweaking is left - 2/14/2009 10:19:18 PM   
Kull


Posts: 2625
Joined: 7/3/2007
From: El Paso, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveB

I stand by my original point - these countless pages of 'this is what it's like' and 'this is how my latest AAR went' suggest a lot of beta testers having fun while everything is endlessly tweaked - that isn't a good sign.


Having been the project manager for a Mod almost as large as AE (EB for RTW), let me assure you that Beta Testers aren't "having fun". The coders make a bunch of changes, the beta testers play a short way in to make sure the changes worked as advertised (maybe, maybe not), they write detailed reports for project management, and then the whole process repeats with the next set of changes. Do that a hundred times, and "fun" is not what you're experiencing. It took me two years before I actually wanted to play a full EB Campaign in RTW.

If you're detecting joy at the moment, it's probably a combination of "I can't believe this is actually working" and "the end is finally frickin' in sight". Nobody wants to release this more than those guys, believe me.

(in reply to DaveB)
Post #: 77
RE: Only tweaking is left - 2/14/2009 10:46:01 PM   
DaveB


Posts: 151
Joined: 8/4/2003
From: Forres Scotland
Status: offline 		Okay,
have fun all. Flipperwash, thanks for the reasoned argument - it wasn't visible when I sent my last post otherwise I'd have posted a thanks sooner, similarly to Kull...although to me it still gives the wrong impression to see so much posted over such a lengthy period.

To the rest, I'm sorry you feel the need for abusiveness in reply, I do hope you all get AE eventually, and that you enjoy playing it. Goodbye.

(in reply to Kull)
Post #: 78
RE: Only tweaking is left - 2/14/2009 10:54:08 PM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10525
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveB

..and this "The Admiral’s Edition expansion is currently scheduled for an early Summer, 2008 release." was therefore PR spin, or somebody not appreciating what the job entailed - both are still under the general heading of management of the project Don.



Well I would be the "Project Manager" you are hunting to beat on. I've been doing software projects for plenty of eons, but this one actually seems to more resemble publishing a book, than creating a piece of software. The traditional, scope, schedule, resources paradigm, is still there to be sure, but the publisher gets to change the priorities of what the team thought we were doing and also gets to have "great ideas" at random points through the project. Also, the publisher doesn't put a priority on dates. That's probably the biggest difference between this project and those I do "in the real world". In my day job, dates rule. Not on this project. Also the nature of our team and our "comp model" is such that while we can have plenty of resources, you can't motivate someone by threatening their job - in fact most team members would probably be joyous if I let them quit! .
As has been mentioned a number of times - the key disconnect in the prediction of when we would be done was the AI. The publishers expecations in that regard were different from our team - and after we got aligned - we realized we had to rewrite the AI "script processor" to get it do work the way we needed it to work for AE. That aspect of the project essentially explains the delay - and while this has been mentioned a number of times, we can't expect everyone to keep up - so I'll mention it again!



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Post #: 79
RE: Only tweaking is left - 2/14/2009 10:56:03 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Oooh, oooh, oooh, we can quit???

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We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

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Post #: 80
RE: Only tweaking is left - 2/14/2009 10:57:39 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

Posts: 5475
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

in fact most team members would probably be joyous if I let them quit! .



I tested that thing again you wanted me to double check master, may I have some water now?

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Post #: 81
RE: Only tweaking is left - 2/14/2009 10:59:37 PM   
madgamer2

 

Posts: 1235
Joined: 11/24/2004
Status: offline 		suck it up! we weant it in Feb. 09! Id'd like a million bucks to LOL

Madgamer

(in reply to Yamato hugger)
Post #: 82
RE: Only tweaking is left - 2/14/2009 11:04:57 PM   
madgamer2

 

Posts: 1235
Joined: 11/24/2004
Status: offline 		Geez first it was WE WANT IT NOW>>>>NOW>>>>>>NOW. Now we here it tweaking and almost ready and all of a sudden it LATER....LATER,,,,,,LATER..LOL. Just be glad it ain't next YEAR......IT ISN'T RIGHT?

mADGAMER

(in reply to Yank)
Post #: 83
RE: Only tweaking is left - 2/14/2009 11:48:22 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		Ok, let me please remind EVERYONE that personal attacks are against the forum rules and will not be tolerated. I don't care how much you disagree with someone or if they rub you the wrong way, if you stoop to insults you've lost the argument.

Also, to those wondering from the outside - the AE team is very well managed. Anyone who's had project management in the "Real World" likely has no idea what managing this kind of project is like. Wargame development on a shoestring budget is an entirely different beast than any other projects I've worked on either. Almost all wargames are multi-year projects and subject to a variety of factors that simply don't exist in "normal" projects. Missing the "projected" release date by a year or more is simply not unusual, even with the best effort and intentions, especially when quality and stability is made the primary determinant of release-readiness and when the team is responsive even in the midst of development to customer feedback and requests.

I've been working closely with the AE team - these guys are very hard workers, very skilled professionals and they are doing an incredible job. The results will be worth the wait.

Regards,

- Erik

< Message edited by Erik Rutins -- 2/14/2009 11:53:51 PM >

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Post #: 84
RE: Only tweaking is left - 2/15/2009 12:36:54 AM   
Nomad


Posts: 5905
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: West Yellowstone, Montana
Status: offline 		To add some irony to this, I remember that SPIs boardgame version of WitP was about 15 months late also.

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Post #: 85
RE: Only tweaking is left - 2/15/2009 12:56:44 AM   
CV Zuikaku

 

Posts: 442
Joined: 12/18/2008
From: Legrad, Croatia
Status: offline 		So you are trying to tell us that AE does exist?!
If so, I have question for the naval team: are the lifeboats supported in AE? Which hexes are shark infested? Are the non swimming crew members simulated on every ship?

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 86
RE: Only tweaking is left - 2/15/2009 1:01:27 AM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		To reiterate everything thats been said above we are working as hard as we can no one wants this out there more than the team.

Specifically re the charge that we are all playing for fun and holding it back well in additon to my day job I am turning in at least 30 - 40 hours per week on the AI and have been for well over 6 months (others have been doing similar hours on other aspects)

In the past I have played more PBEM turns than I care to think about literally thousands of turns and have not played a PBEM turn in 18 months because of this project and that includes AE all I do day in day out is AI and AI tweaking if Joe would let me I would have resigned months ago so believe me we want this out there soon and we are going as fast as we can.

I dont get upset by folks asking why there is a delay or why their are AAR's but if you note the AAR I did a few months back was only Malaya and it was only Land - for a very simple reason the air AI wasnt in then so that was all I could show you.

I wonder now if maybe we are communicating to much perhaps silence would be better and not upset folks.

Andy

(in reply to Nomad)
Post #: 87
RE: Only tweaking is left - 2/15/2009 1:26:46 AM   
33Vyper


Posts: 542
Joined: 10/20/2004
From: New Westminster BC
Status: offline 		Well......

What an interesting thread.......

Hmmmm......

What to add........

First.... I am very thankful for all of the hard work and effort that is going in to this project.

Second.... Thank you for sharing, the art...the map...the features etc... your fascinating AARs.... For me this is just building the excitement for what looks like a terrific enhancement to WITP.

Third.... To all the naysayers....come back only once per month. If it is released .... buy it....if not go away :)

Finally.... To all the Matrix Crew, Henderson Designs ppls, and the testing crew....take all the time you need. Your efforts are what will make this a success.

Thank you very much.

John

(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 88
RE: Only tweaking is left - 2/15/2009 1:51:02 AM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

I wonder now if maybe we are communicating to much perhaps silence would be better and not upset folks.

Andy


No Andy, silence would not be better. Just keep in mind that any approach will disappoint some. "You cannot please all of the people.." is still true.

Keep the info coming. Many thanks.

(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 89
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