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RE: Transport Fleets - 4/14/2009 1:03:35 PM   
Mardonius


Posts: 654
Joined: 4/9/2007
From: East Coast
Status: offline 		One can not, to my knowledge, disband or scuttle one's fleets outside of losing a port battle.

(in reply to pzgndr)
Post #: 61
RE: Transport Fleets - 4/14/2009 1:18:56 PM   
pzgndr

 

Posts: 3170
Joined: 3/18/2004
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		Good point.  I haven't been too concerned about not using transports or trying to get rid of them so this hasn't been an issue for me.  The maintenance cost for transports issue begs a question; could this be reduced or eliminated for EiANW?  These are not exactly first rates requiring much effort for upkeep.

(in reply to Mardonius)
Post #: 62
RE: Transport Fleets - 4/14/2009 1:23:59 PM   
Marshall Ellis


Posts: 5630
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Dallas
Status: offline 		Now that is a good point about the transports???
What about reducing to corps maint levels (1 in and 1 out of ports).
This would make them more valuable since there would not be a huge penalty for leaving them out of port on an eco month!

Thoughts?





_____________________________

Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games



(in reply to pzgndr)
Post #: 63
RE: Transport Fleets - 4/14/2009 1:45:47 PM   
obsidiandrag


Posts: 181
Joined: 3/22/2008
From: Massachusetts, USA
Status: offline 		This would make them more useful as a cheaper invasion supply if the invasion will be lasting over the economic phase..  Since it would not cost extra to leave them out there while the heavies and lights go into port for refit and cheaper maintenance.

As for getting rid of the transports, I already covered that, all you have to do is sail into whoever you are at war with (even a minor) and they can gobble them up (or even capture them automatically) then you dont even have to USE them in any respect of the word.  To me the light fleets for the turkish are more useless to turkey than the transports as none of the primary minors for Turkey have boats, the transports and whopping 12 heavies are used to shuttle troops and the lights just sit there, thats the good thing about the piracy is you can send them there and not have to pay for them.

OD


(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
Post #: 64
RE: Transport Fleets - 4/14/2009 3:04:40 PM   
Mardonius


Posts: 654
Joined: 4/9/2007
From: East Coast
Status: offline 		The reduced maintenance cost to $1 in port and $1 at sea would be no use, really Marshall.

I would suggest again that you add a button for mechant fleets akin to your piracy option for lt fleets that could send them to merchant duty for 0 maintenance (or perhaps slight income... whioch woudl be an incentive to have and build them but would need some forethought) or a recall button that has them recalled to fleet duty at the regular upkeep costs.

Think about it. For poorer countries like Turkey, you are taking around 4% of their income per phase and putting it towards maintenance of a marginal fleet. 3% Spain etc. This is like taking away $4 from France per economic phase.

I implore you find some mechanism to let players not have to pay for these fleets.

best
Mardonius

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
Post #: 65
RE: Transport Fleets - 4/14/2009 3:21:51 PM   
DodgyDave

 

Posts: 223
Joined: 9/30/2002
Status: offline 		why not go with my suggestion instead then, make it so that every nation have a transport fleet with max 20 ships and max speed of 7... and a heavy fleet can have 10 transports and light fleets 5 transports, that way you can spread it out a bit more and most of the time, you will want to defend your transports, so might as well have them included as part of the heavy and light fleets as well...

or at least make it so, that in the editor, that you can change fleets to include them as i would like that change in my games...

(in reply to Mardonius)
Post #: 66
RE: Transport Fleets - 4/14/2009 5:00:28 PM   
NeverMan

 

Posts: 1722
Joined: 2/24/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DodgyDave

why not go with my suggestion instead then, make it so that every nation have a transport fleet with max 20 ships and max speed of 7... and a heavy fleet can have 10 transports and light fleets 5 transports, that way you can spread it out a bit more and most of the time, you will want to defend your transports, so might as well have them included as part of the heavy and light fleets as well...

or at least make it so, that in the editor, that you can change fleets to include them as i would like that change in my games...


Dave, I think would cause the most work for Marshall, which I think he is trying to avoid having to do a lot of work on this one.

Marshall, I don't like your suggestion. I would really like to get rid of them altogether for the points mentioned by Mardonius.

pzndgr, why should I have to take a PP hit? That makes NO sense.

(in reply to DodgyDave)
Post #: 67
RE: Transport Fleets - 4/14/2009 6:03:13 PM   
obsidiandrag


Posts: 181
Joined: 3/22/2008
From: Massachusetts, USA
Status: offline 		You could always add the option on setup to not place your transports (or even any ships for that matter) to instead locate a port where they have been built awaiting a reinforcement phase to put them into a fleet marker.  This way if you never want /use them, you never have to although the warning each phase to place them would get annoying..  I often build ships for Spain the same way and leave them into the port until I have enough there to make it worth the $$ to put on the counter.

I wonder if we could have a don't show box for the fleets instead (if they are in the same place as previously checked not to show)??

this way they are still there for those who want and not a hinderance for those who dont.. you could even go the step further like the training militia and refit / upgrade them to light ships (I KNOW.. not realistic but an option to make them useful to some).

OD


(in reply to NeverMan)
Post #: 68
RE: Transport Fleets - 4/15/2009 4:34:41 AM   
Thresh

 

Posts: 393
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From: KCMO
Status: offline
quote:

pzndgr, why should I have to take a PP hit? That makes NO sense.


Ships are a larger and more costly investment of time and money.  Sinking say, $70 worth of ships in a voluntary move shouldn't be a penalty of some sort?

Todd

(in reply to obsidiandrag)
Post #: 69
RE: Transport Fleets - 4/15/2009 4:38:57 AM   
NeverMan

 

Posts: 1722
Joined: 2/24/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thresh

quote:

pzndgr, why should I have to take a PP hit? That makes NO sense.


Ships are a larger and more costly investment of time and money.  Sinking say, $70 worth of ships in a voluntary move shouldn't be a penalty of some sort?

Todd



If you're replying to me I think you missed the conversation somewhere along the lines. I agree with you, it should be, absolutely, that's why Transports should be GONE ALTOGETHER, UNLIKE how pzndgr suggestion, which is more in line with your response.

(in reply to Thresh)
Post #: 70
RE: Transport Fleets - 4/15/2009 1:34:18 PM   
pzgndr

 

Posts: 3170
Joined: 3/18/2004
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		Light fleets and transports should remain in default EiANW for those interested in a more historically accurate game. Period. The classic EiA scenarios and OOBs can have these be gone altogether, for those who don't care. Both sides can be happy.

My comment about the transport pp loss was for the current game rules. If you lose the transport fleet and take the pp loss, this would be less significant in the long run than paying the maintenance costs every eco phase. This is difficult to understand? I also commented that future rules should be changed so that transport fleets have no impact on the gain/loss of pp's, which is actually agreeing with you guys if you take time to read. Again, this is difficult to understand?

(in reply to Mardonius)
Post #: 71
RE: Transport Fleets - 4/15/2009 2:00:37 PM   
Marshall Ellis


Posts: 5630
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Dallas
Status: offline 		I will not remove these units in the EiANW but you could yourselves in the editor. I will not have these in the classic scenarios.

_____________________________

Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games



(in reply to pzgndr)
Post #: 72
RE: Transport Fleets - 4/15/2009 2:23:31 PM   
NeverMan

 

Posts: 1722
Joined: 2/24/2004
Status: offline 		So how many people think the Transport rules in EiANW should be changed?

How many think they should stay the same?

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
Post #: 73
RE: Transport Fleets - 4/15/2009 2:39:42 PM   
pzgndr

 

Posts: 3170
Joined: 3/18/2004
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		Neverman, what the heck do you care about transport rule changes??  You want them to go away altogether and you will have this with the classic EiA scenarios.  You're done.  Now you want to get into rules changes for actually keeping and using transports??  Too funny.

(in reply to NeverMan)
Post #: 74
RE: Transport Fleets - 4/15/2009 5:27:59 PM   
NeverMan

 

Posts: 1722
Joined: 2/24/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

Neverman, what the heck do you care about transport rule changes??  You want them to go away altogether and you will have this with the classic EiA scenarios.  You're done.  Now you want to get into rules changes for actually keeping and using transports??  Too funny.


I'd love to see the button "Go Away" for them added to existing games. They are useless and silly and it seems most peopl here agree with that, except Matrix and yourself (who I'm almost certian is some sort of PR guy hired by Marshall, :) ).

(in reply to pzgndr)
Post #: 75
RE: Transport Fleets - 4/15/2009 6:04:01 PM   
easterner

 

Posts: 179
Joined: 10/9/2004
Status: offline 		I love transports, mine carry UK troops to Baltic & Med, Fr troops to N. Afr, Aus troops to Sardinia, Turks from Egy to Balkans, Rus in Baltic, even built some Pr for comedy relief (don't remember if used).

So why beat a dead horse, they are staying, you'll have an editor to erase them?

(in reply to NeverMan)
Post #: 76
RE: Transport Fleets - 4/15/2009 7:21:58 PM   
NeverMan

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: easterner

I love transports, mine carry UK troops to Baltic & Med, Fr troops to N. Afr, Aus troops to Sardinia, Turks from Egy to Balkans, Rus in Baltic, even built some Pr for comedy relief (don't remember if used).

So why beat a dead horse, they are staying, you'll have an editor to erase them?


By Balkans do you mean Greece?

(in reply to easterner)
Post #: 77
RE: Transport Fleets - 4/15/2009 7:35:08 PM   
obsidiandrag


Posts: 181
Joined: 3/22/2008
From: Massachusetts, USA
Status: offline 		I think they are fine as is.. If some like adjusting as options or to remove via the editor that is fine with me but I like them as they are and will keep using them as such. They serve a strategic purpose and if used to that extent are indeed useful to every nation in one way or another.

OD


(in reply to NeverMan)
Post #: 78
RE: Transport Fleets - 4/15/2009 7:41:00 PM   
easterner

 

Posts: 179
Joined: 10/9/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NeverMan


quote:

ORIGINAL: easterner

I love transports, mine carry UK troops to Baltic & Med, Fr troops to N. Afr, Aus troops to Sardinia, Turks from Egy to Balkans, Rus in Baltic, even built some Pr for comedy relief (don't remember if used).

So why beat a dead horse, they are staying, you'll have an editor to erase them?


By Balkans do you mean Greece?



Athens (site of my greatest humiliation when my French fleet was destroyed by RN back in our 1st game of EiA ADG version)

(in reply to NeverMan)
Post #: 79
RE: Transport Fleets - 4/15/2009 7:48:10 PM   
Ted1066


Posts: 214
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

I will not remove these units in the EiANW but you could yourselves in the editor. I will not have these in the classic scenarios.


This I am looking forward to - Classic EiA.

I still don't see the charm in EiH - they're a bunch of untested (or poorly tested) add-ons trying to make EiA more of a simulation game, something Harry R. never intended in the first place. This game is an abstraction based on a historical period as a framework. Okay, the original EiA rules were not perfect (I know I've had more than a few disputes over rule interpretations), but they still are a damn sight better than any of the EiH rules.

Cheers,

Ted

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
Post #: 80
RE: Transport Fleets - 4/15/2009 8:28:55 PM   
Mardonius


Posts: 654
Joined: 4/9/2007
From: East Coast
Status: offline 		Hello Ted:

EiH can be a lot of fun. But you need to be able to have a forum before the game to figure out which rules to use and which not to. I am a fan of it, so long as one keeps a watchful eye on potential abuses/unintended consequnces. But a fan means I accpet about 95% and throw out the last problematic 5%. It is this remainder 5% (e.g. transports) that the EIANW program has not been able to sort out. This -- combined with a slew of slews of bugs -- has been the undoing of this game to date.

Just some thoughts or "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater"

best
Mardonius

(in reply to Ted1066)
Post #: 81
RE: Transport Fleets - 4/15/2009 8:58:04 PM   
j-s

 

Posts: 76
Joined: 3/18/2003
From: Finland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mardonius


So, I would scrap the transports and allow the HS fleets (only... no Lt Ship transporting) to each carry a corps.

best
Mardonius



I agree with you here. I hope that this can be done at least in classic scenario (hope they are doing that).
In the original game, there was only one kind of ships (30 ships in one fleet) and that was good. So light ships and transport can be left out.

(in reply to Mardonius)
Post #: 82
RE: Transport Fleets - 4/16/2009 1:33:25 PM   
Marshall Ellis


Posts: 5630
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Dallas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ted1066


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

I will not remove these units in the EiANW but you could yourselves in the editor. I will not have these in the classic scenarios.


This I am looking forward to - Classic EiA.

I still don't see the charm in EiH - they're a bunch of untested (or poorly tested) add-ons trying to make EiA more of a simulation game, something Harry R. never intended in the first place. This game is an abstraction based on a historical period as a framework. Okay, the original EiA rules were not perfect (I know I've had more than a few disputes over rule interpretations), but they still are a damn sight better than any of the EiH rules.

Cheers,

Ted


This is what I think most folks think! We planned to release a mix of the two (And we did) but in hind-sight probably should have done the classic scenario first because I'm finding that most believe as you Ted. Live and learn...



_____________________________

Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games



(in reply to Ted1066)
Post #: 83
RE: Transport Fleets - 4/16/2009 4:55:13 PM   
Jimmer

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis
This is what I think most folks think! We planned to release a mix of the two (And we did) but in hind-sight probably should have done the classic scenario first because I'm finding that most believe as you Ted. Live and learn...

Yeah, but at the time, there were more people who wanted EiH rules. I could have predicted they would leave and mostly there would be "EIA to the core" people around a year after release. The reason is because EiH was founded upon direct interaction with the game system by the players playing the then-current game. In other words, players got to tweak the rules so they would actually work.

However, EIANW is much more rigid. The rules were implemented mostly correctly (i.e. matching EiH), but that meant the players were locked into a single interpretation of the rules. Given they abandoned the original EiA for not allowing them to change the rules, it was obvious (or, should have been) that they would abandon EIANW once they realized the lockdown problem (for them) existed.

(NOTE: This is a gross generalization, but illustrates what I'm trying to get at.)

On the other hand, EiA purists have a longer-term commitment to the "age-old" game. Anybody who plays a game for anything approaching 25 years, without making significant modifications to it, is more or less married to that game. Those people will tend to stick around, hoping the game they really love will eventually emerge. (Again, gross generalizations here.)

Once the pile of options you are looking into, and the game editor, too, appears, the EiH players may return. Further, the EiA purists who left because it was EiH will also return.

IF, that is, they get the message somehow. Many may have left for good and written off their investment.

I recommend Matrix do all it can to gather up the email addresses of the people on this forum (whether they still post or not) and post an email to them describing the changes. AFTER the editor is stable and the host of options has appeared. Both camps, I predict, will swell their numbers if the knowledge of such changes reaches them.

_____________________________

At LAST! The greatest campaign board game of all time is finally available for the PC. Can my old heart stand the strain?

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
Post #: 84
RE: Transport Fleets - 4/16/2009 5:59:15 PM   
DodgyDave

 

Posts: 223
Joined: 9/30/2002
Status: offline 		well being one, who have never played EIH, but i like what was done with it, i dont have any real problems with it, the bit that annoy me, is perhaps more that the game is pbem, instead of possible a server of a table, where you see moves, much like you would around a real table, so play in real time... proper setup kingdoms... the Turkey blocade thingy, dont remember name, but the one where they can prevent people from moving back and forth... and alot of other things...

they should make changes into the game, but leave all changes, that is not Core EIA, as options, give the players the options of choising what they want...

please fix the AI, because i find the email gaming too slow, i prefer to find 6 players around my time zone, that i can play 3 to 6 turns with each time we meet online, as you would normally around then table... not 1 game month per week or two...

all in all, i do like the game, but it still lacks alot of things, nothing i can do about that, so i keep track of the game and hope it will eventually be fixed...

also please add in nation sheets as in the EIA game, so you can have a better overview and especially be sure to see what you have built and who got it, as its annoying clicking all around for this info each time... :(

as i say, i hope it will all by fixed eventually... would hate to put my game away...

(in reply to Jimmer)
Post #: 85
RE: Transport Fleets - 4/16/2009 6:30:23 PM   
Ted1066


Posts: 214
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Status: offline 		Well, I played a lot of EiA in the late 80s and 90s and our group decided to try EiH in the late 90s, when the addendum rules were added (EiH v1.5 or maybe v2). None of us liked EiH much. The problem I have with a la carte rules sets is how unbalancing they are to the game you try to play. Of the 4-5 attempts at EiH games, NONE of them finished (and we're not even talking Grand Campaigns either). With EiA, the core rules and options in section 10 and 11 were thoroughly, and properly, tested. I don't believe this to be true for the EiH rules and you see that with the numerous editions added later on. As I'm sure Matrix is learning with this game, if your test group is small it is very difficult to catch all the bugs AND to catch the unbalancing elements of your new rules (with regards to EiH testing, not EIANW testing - that is a different matter for a separate topic).

So I don't agree with what you say, Jimmer, as far as "players got to tweak the rules so they would actually work". I acknowledge that the original EiA rules needed tweaking, but the addendums that came out in The General were sufficient to plug the holes (most of them were written by Harry R.) What I mostly took out of EiH was map changes, the addition of diplomacy rules, and huge naval rules changes and none of these added real value to the game.

Honestly, I would have been fine with Matrix developing Empires in Harm: Napoleonic Wars (which they did) and I would have accepted this from day one. Instead, they gave it the current name and created an expectation. Yes, they mentioned that there would be a blending of EiA and EiH rules, but there was emphasis placed on developing Empires in Arms that got me hooked and got me wanting to see my favourite game brought to the PC. To be fair, I am biased: I like EiA - the original map, the original rules and the original counters. Its a fantastic game. Thus, I am looking forward to the editor coming out in v1.06 and being able to play the game I really enjoy. I just hope that Matrix tests the crap out of v1.06 because with this editor and the changes made in 1.06 there is a huge opportunity to mess up current games.

Cheers,

Ted

PS Thanks for listening to me prattle on about the good ol' days

(in reply to Jimmer)
Post #: 86
RE: Transport Fleets - 4/16/2009 7:11:50 PM   
Jimmer

 

Posts: 1968
Joined: 12/5/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ted1066
So I don't agree with what you say, Jimmer, as far as "players got to tweak the rules so they would actually work". I acknowledge that the original EiA rules needed tweaking, but the addendums that came out in The General were sufficient to plug the holes (most of them were written by Harry R.) What I mostly took out of EiH was map changes, the addition of diplomacy rules, and huge naval rules changes and none of these added real value to the game.

Actually, I meant that Harms players could tweak things, and that's why they liked it. EIA players didn't tweak so much, but rather played mostly by the rules (with some "house rules", but those didn't change much).

Sorry for not being clear.

_____________________________

At LAST! The greatest campaign board game of all time is finally available for the PC. Can my old heart stand the strain?

(in reply to Ted1066)
Post #: 87
RE: Transport Fleets - 4/17/2009 4:31:55 PM   
Ted1066


Posts: 214
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Status: offline 		ahh, noted. I'd pretty much totally agree with this then.

Ted

(in reply to Jimmer)
Post #: 88
RE: Transport Fleets - 4/17/2009 5:02:24 PM   
anarchyintheuk

 

Posts: 3921
Joined: 5/5/2004
From: Dallas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ted1066


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

I will not remove these units in the EiANW but you could yourselves in the editor. I will not have these in the classic scenarios.


This I am looking forward to - Classic EiA.

I still don't see the charm in EiH - they're a bunch of untested (or poorly tested) add-ons trying to make EiA more of a simulation game, something Harry R. never intended in the first place. This game is an abstraction based on a historical period as a framework. Okay, the original EiA rules were not perfect (I know I've had more than a few disputes over rule interpretations), but they still are a damn sight better than any of the EiH rules.

Cheers,

Ted


This is what I think most folks think! We planned to release a mix of the two (And we did) but in hind-sight probably should have done the classic scenario first because I'm finding that most believe as you Ted. Live and learn...




Just like to say I'm not in the above group. I like the rules content as chosen. The only problem I had with the release were the amount of bugs, but then the original EiA was released in as buggy a condition.

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
Post #: 89
RE: Transport Fleets - 4/20/2009 2:46:16 PM   
Marshall Ellis


Posts: 5630
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Dallas
Status: offline 		I cannot argue with that :-0



_____________________________

Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games



(in reply to anarchyintheuk)
Post #: 90
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