RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case

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RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/20/2009 11:10:26 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

quote:

ORIGINAL: E
Flaw in your analogy and/or logic... libraries are not free.

No. It only shows that the libraries in your country are either:
a. Getting money for buying new books and paying their employees - which is exactly the behaviour of Pirate Bay.
b. Paying royalities to the authors/publishers, which would mean that they agree with my point.

Traditionally, libraries are free.

Traditionally, the services libraries provide are free to use. Traditionally, libraries are created and maintained by tax revenue. So of course you can use it... you paid for it.

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Post #: 61

RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/20/2009 11:34:09 PM

Zakhal

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If you are seriously defending piracy and think it should be legal then instead of making up reasons why you should get stuff for free, you should think new ways of funding the development of that stuff. How do you fund say 10 million dollar game if its given away free?�How should matrix games fund their game development if we just d/l the new WITP AE for free?

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Post #: 62

RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/21/2009 1:47:50 AM

Scott_WAR

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quote:

ORIGINAL: E

Traditionally, the services libraries provide are free to use. Traditionally, libraries are created and maintained by tax revenue. So of course you can use it... you paid for it.

That is a good point.

Zakhal, I am not defending pirating. I agree with the outcome of this case,.....I just dont like the ruling being based on "assisting in copyright infringement". I feel thats too broad of a stroke and could have far reaching implications in other industries that isnt intended.

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Post #: 63

RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/21/2009 1:48:04 AM

Perturabo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zakhal

Most games since the dawn of time? Ebay is full of old games. Are you saying that i.e original steel panthers had EULA which said that you cant sell/borrow it? You most be j/k.

It only shows that you don't read what you agree on.

Almost every commercial EULA that I've read forbade reselling/borrowing the program and I'm buying PC games since mid 90s. It seems that every new medium tries to use the newest form of understanding of intellectual property.

I remember that the first PC game I have borrowed even had an entry for that topic in the FAQ section.
It was something like this:
Q: Can I borrow the game to my friend.
A: No. He has to buy his own copy.

Now, that's hardcore

.

Enforceability of it is separate thing. I suspect that if they'd try to go against eBay or Amazon, they would piss off too much people and risk losing a case if the court would say that the EULA is in fact non-binding - both are pretty powerful and probably can afford very good lawyers. I doubt they are even interested in fully enforcing the EULA as they even usually leave the abandonware sites alone.

Which didn't stop them from creating DRMs that do enforce that point of EULA for new games.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zakhal

Even then I dont know what this has to do with piracy? Are you trying to defend piracy with the fact that people have broken EULAs since the dawn of time by selling their games in ebay or borrowing them to their friends? Even if that is true (in som limited cases) you are still really grasping the straws here man.

Except that no one here was using the EULA to defend piracy.
Don't you remember? This particular response was to your statement about how you dislike Steam for enforcing a common part of end user licence agreements that you were apparently unaware of despite that end user licence agreements usually begin with something like "VERY IMPORTANT, PLEASE READ IT CAREFULLY".

Amusingly, such ignorance is pretty common - I remember a lot of people being actually outraged and surprised when reselling stores in one of the countries got actually sued by some game publishers (was it Sony and Japan or something like that?) - it's safer to go against a small guy than against a giant.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zakhal

This just show the extreme lengths that pirates go to "defend" their hobby.

It is you who defends the commie collectivisation of commercial books by the governments and brings up the topic of defence of piracy at every step, not me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zakhal

Ive had hundreds of debates with pirates and its an endless merry go around. The excuses just keep popping up one after another. Pretty much pointless waste of time to actually take part into it.

So are the discussions with defenders of commie libraries. It's ironic how there's a division between "libraries are just like piracy, we can't allow those greedy authors to use the arguments that are against piracy to make renting books cost money!" and "libraries aren't like piracy because the government does it".
Yeah, and my favourite response ever from the "look at my awesome 40" TV and my ultra-modern computer!" type - "libraries are good because they allow me read books for free and spend the money on beer and hardware instead!"

I've seen enough to form my own judgement of the situation. I was convinced by a librarian to stop buying books "because they are available in the library", I actually gave a big part of my fantasy collection to a library, I've read tens (or maybe even more than a hundred?) of books for free - most of which I would buy if they weren't available for free in the commie libraries. I saw that the same mechanics apply to the libraries as to the piracy - libraries may not have infinite number of every book, but they certainly have new books and enough books to satisfy my reading needs for years.
So, I clearly see that this situation is immoral, and what law says is irrelevant as law can't dictate morality and law can be immoral.
Unlike video market (which is the closest thing to the book market as both sell stories) where there's a choice between paying less and renting and paying the full price and owning a movie, there's only a choice between a free ride in a commie library and paying a full price. And there will not be commercial book rentals that pay royalties to the authors and allow books to be treated equally to other media until there will be free commie libraries.

The same arguments that apply to video games still apply to books - and it's not easy to live from writing books unless one is Stephen King or J.K. Rowling.

< Message edited by Perturabo -- 4/21/2009 1:52:22 AM >

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Post #: 64

RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/21/2009 8:56:54 AM

Zakhal

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zakhal

Even then I dont know what this has to do with piracy? Are you trying to defend piracy with the fact that people have broken EULAs since the dawn of time by selling their games in ebay or borrowing them to their friends? Even if that is true (in som limited cases) you are still really grasping the straws here man.

Except that no one here was using the EULA to defend piracy.

Then why do you bring it into a piracy thread? It sounds like you are using it as a strawman here.

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zakhal
This just show the extreme lengths that pirates go to "defend" their hobby.

It is you who defends the commie collectivisation of commercial books by the governments and brings up the topic of defence of piracy at every step, not me.

Lol. You accuse me of been commie for wanting capitalism while you ask that all content in internet should be free to equally share between everyone? Piracy is leeching/freeloading/communism.

Quote on the copyright subject:

quote:

"The spirit of copyright is such that it cant be overcome by small technical gimmicks. This is not an american movie."

http://www.hs.fi/kulttuuri/artikkeli/Kirja-ala+haluaa+sulkea+opiskelijoiden +perustaman+kirjavuokrauspalvelun/1135245322054

Thats how piratebay boys lost the case.

< Message edited by Zakhal -- 4/22/2009 12:51:14 AM >

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Post #: 65

RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/21/2009 5:38:08 PM

SuluSea

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No excuse for stealing someones property and/or giving it away as it's their own creation. Anyone that defends these type websites or their actions would be singing a much different tune if they were the victims of theft.

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Post #: 66

RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/21/2009 9:35:33 PM

Widell

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Widell
You are right. One major difference between software and books/music is that you, normally, don't buy the software, you [buy a license to use the software.

Which is only because the software designers took extra effort to hammer the point with a wall of text. Copyright notices on music/videos almost always state that "copying, renting and broadcasting" without a written permission from the producer are forbidden. Which means that effectively, it's not very different from the software licenses.

Effectively yes, since both the licence as well as the copyright or whatever we choose to call it serve more or less the same purpose which is to protect the rights of the creator of the software, song, movie or whatever the artefact happens to be.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Widell
Most licenses (EULA) have really tough restrictions, but obviously it has been hard for the software providers to monitor the usage of the granted licenses. This has, to some extent, changed with the recent systems mentioned above, and the reaction from the (vocal part) of the community has been mostly negative.

It's funny that the people suddenly woke up and started saying that licences are wrong only when they have became enforceable.
Couldn't they, like disagree with them earlier?
After all, games aren't necessary for life.

Well, I guess very few cared about a license or copyright paragraph that was close to being impossible for the provider to police adherence to, while it suddenly becomes more of an issue when the same technology that enables the violation of said paragraphs on a scale big enough to have a bottom line impact on the provider of the product starts catching up and actually enable a more rigid tracking of adherence to the licenses and copyrights. It's two sides of the same coin, isn't it? On the one side, there are the people that create music, movies, games and more that feel they loose revenue, and on the other side there are customers that experience what is perceived as quality issues, and even worse, integrity and freedom of speech issues.

Well, well, the technology is here, and both sides need to learn to use it within acceptable boundaries. Pirate Bay has not been operating within acceptable boundaries, but my personal opinion is that the Swedish so called IPRED legislation that allow companies to (more or less at least) to approach individuals and try to get money for downloads from them. This is pretty close to private police work, and even if there are constraints as to when the ISP's are obliged to provide an IP#, I am under no illusion that there will not be cases when individuals are just sent an invoice together with a threat of going to court unless the money is paid. IPRED has very little to do with Pirate Bay, but he debate, specially in Sweden, are very much confusing the two...

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Post #: 67

RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/22/2009 12:38:48 AM

vonRocko

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

I've seen enough to form my own judgement of the situation. I was convinced by a librarian to stop buying books "because they are available in the library", I actually gave a big part of my fantasy collection to a library, I've read tens (or maybe even more than a hundred?) of books for free - most of which I would buy if they weren't available for free in the commie libraries. I saw that the same mechanics apply to the libraries as to the piracy - libraries may not have infinite number of every book, but they certainly have new books and enough books to satisfy my reading needs for years.
So, I clearly see that this situation is immoral, and what law says is irrelevant as law can't dictate morality and law can be immoral.

Can someone help me out here,I am a little dense sometimes. Is he saying that library users are immoral communist pirates?
If you are,then it is a strange irony that he donates books and frequents the library.
If not,then I beg your pardon.

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Post #: 68

RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/22/2009 1:03:35 AM

Awac835

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Any game developer who put rootkits on my computer. Any publisher who treat me as im there sworn enemy with 3 activations and then i have to phone or email them for new ones. Deserves there game pirated! And ffs if i thought there **** was worth playing i would pirate it just to insult them.

That said, i cant remember when i last pirated a game. In fact i dont think i ever did. The crap so many game developers spew out is horrendous its not worth my time anyway.

I actualy buy alot of games just to support the devs of the games. I bought my fair share of matrix games which i properly had a idea i wouldnt really play that much, ofc i gave em a shoot. Stardock i will also always support and have all there games. Simply becouse i feel treated as a customer and not a pirate. I have a few indie titles i bought straight from the devs websites without any inbetween publisher etc.

I have 200+ CD's and 250+ DVD's i havent bought any in a few years but thats soley becouse im studying so im short of money most of the time. When i get out into the real life again i will be buying my steady rate of CD's and DVD's each year(like i have in the past) whenever i see something i like, atm i just dont have the money for it. So yes i pirate a few movies now and then, but that dosent mean i dont go see em at the cinema and most of those i have downloaded i will properly end up buying anyway once i get money back in my hands when im done with my education. Same goes for music CD's.

So all in all i dont think piracy really matters much. I find it far more scary if politicans wants to begin controling, what i can see and find on the internet! They shouldnt punish 4 guys for having links on there homepage, they should punish the people who actualy use the download service that is torrents.

(in reply to Widell)

Post #: 69

RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/22/2009 7:43:42 PM

Widell

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Awac835
I actualy buy alot of games just to support the devs of the games.

Fully agree! However, that may be a sign we are getting older and have more $'s, �'s or �'s to spend

quote:

ORIGINAL: Awac835
So all in all i dont think piracy really matters much. I find it far more scary if politicans wants to begin controling,�what i can see and find on the internet!

Obviously piracy matters, at least to the music and movie industry. Otherwise they wouldn't push so hard for some of the things they push for. This should not be confused with, agreeably as you say, the much more serious issue of personal integrity. Sadly, the state of the world and the anti-piracy stuff from the industry are forcing moves in a dangerous direction, even if it's for very different reasons.

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Post #: 70

RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/23/2009 6:37:56 PM

Hertston

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You have to laugh. According to the BBC it now transpires that the judge

quote:

is a member of the Swedish Copyright Association and sits on the board of Swedish Association for the Protection of Industrial Property

and yet somehow did not consider this a potential conflict of interest sufficient to notify the Court and the defendants' lawywers.

Corruption? Maybe not, but a retrial now seems the very least the defendants might expect from the appeal. Assuming, of course that the appeal Court judges aren't all members of the Swedish Copyright Association....

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Post #: 71

RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/23/2009 6:41:24 PM

Terminus

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Gee, that sounds "fair"...

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Post #: 72

RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/23/2009 7:39:58 PM

Jeffrey H.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hertston

You have to laugh. According to the BBC it now transpires that the judge

quote:

is a member of the Swedish Copyright Association and sits on the board of Swedish Association for the Protection of Industrial Property

and yet somehow did not consider this a potential conflict of interest sufficient to notify the Court and the defendants' lawywers.

Corruption? Maybe not, but a retrial now seems the very least the defendants might expect from the appeal. Assuming, of course that the appeal Court judges aren't all members of the Swedish Copyright Association....

That's unreal. The judge did not know this would be seen as a direct conflict of interest ? Wow, that's arrogance for you.

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Post #: 73

RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/23/2009 7:54:31 PM

Terminus

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Of course he knew... He just decided to ignore it...

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Post #: 74

RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/23/2009 9:36:43 PM

anarchyintheuk

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Depends on Swedish law and their legal definition of conflict of interest. If he's not compensated for either of those positions, it may not constitute a conflict.

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Post #: 75

RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/23/2009 11:59:59 PM

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What do they do to the guilty there? Lock them in a long house, or send them on a voyage as one of the rowers?

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Post #: 76

RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/24/2009 6:05:29 AM

SS Hauptsturmfuhrer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: E

What do they do to the guilty there? Lock them in a long house, or send them on a voyage as one of the rowers?

I heard the misdemeanor punishment in Sweden is to force people to do the traditional sweltering sauna followed by jumping in the nude through a hole in the ice on a frozen lake to cool down.... but without the sauna part included.

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Post #: 77

RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/24/2009 9:06:13 AM

Zakhal

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quote:

ORIGINAL: E
What do they do to the guilty there? Lock them in a long house, or send them on a voyage as one of the rowers?

They slap them in the face firmly and then its back to tapping the back.

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Post #: 78

RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/28/2009 6:45:02 AM

Obsolete

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quote:

Also, software producers usually have to use the "license" to shield themselves from funny things like responsibility for selling unfinished products (taking in account that when it happens, every copy is bugged/unfinished - it could end with losing most of income) and any technical problems caused by them (they are very rare, but they do happen and paying for damages to hundreds or thousands of customers is not fun - Pool of Radiance 2, anyone?).