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RE: HOI3 - 12/12/2009 3:40:39 PM   
killroyishere

 

Posts: 639
Joined: 4/23/2008
Status: offline 		Well for me the only thing that needs to be historical is the starting point. Meaning owned provinces, units, factories, resources, etc. etc. After that everything should be ahistorical every game. From how the ai decides to conduct its wars and battles to the way I conduct mine.
It doesn't bother me that Japan decides to land in southern france or north africa. If the game allows it to happen then it happens. The historians go nuts over this though as "that's not the way it happened in history". Well once again wargames should be whatif's after initial setups not play out like a movie or history book. I'd like to see Japan invade California or Alaska (like it does in Axis & Allies).

Anything and everything should be possible and resources that the Axis never had should be possible to either make or aquire in some games. Operation Sea Lion successful as humans can do it easily in every one of these grand strategic computer games so why not the ai? Battle for Britian won by the Germans instead of Britian all the time.
Most of the time the ai Germany can take out Russia as well and I like this as it makes for a better wargame vs ai Germany when I play as USA or a minor assisting the computer ai USA.

The problem with most of these grand operational games is the ai just doesn't play a good leader as any of them. If you play any major you're going to stomp whatever ai you go up against in them at any difficulty level. But, I have found that Making History has the best high difficulty ai performance mainly based on resources they get. It's certainly challenging enough since they will always get ahistorical resources to build more stuff with.

(in reply to GoodGuy)
Post #: 391
RE: HOI3 - 12/12/2009 3:58:48 PM   
Joe D.


Posts: 4004
Joined: 8/31/2005
From: Stratford, Connecticut
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quote:

ORIGINAL: killroyishere
... But, I have found that Making History has the best high difficulty ai performance mainly based on resources they get. It's certainly challenging enough since they will always get ahistorical resources to build more stuff with.


I was not that impressed w/MH, something like a 3D, turn-based HoI that was originally developed for history students.

_____________________________

Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.

"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to killroyishere)
Post #: 392
RE: HOI3 - 12/12/2009 7:00:22 PM   
killroyishere

 

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quote:

I was not that impressed w/MH, something like a 3D, turn-based HoI that was originally developed for history students.



Obviously you didn't play it enough then as it's 10x better than the HOI series because each game is different and I can't wait for MH II. The fact that it is turned based makes it better than the HOI's imo.

(in reply to Joe D.)
Post #: 393
RE: HOI3 - 12/12/2009 8:30:05 PM   
Joe D.


Posts: 4004
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From: Stratford, Connecticut
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quote:

ORIGINAL: killroyishere

quote:

I was not that impressed w/MH, something like a 3D, turn-based HoI that was originally developed for history students.



Obviously you didn't play it enough then as it's 10x better than the HOI series because each game is different and I can't wait for MH II. The fact that it is turned based makes it better than the HOI's imo.


I pre-ordered MH and was disapointed w/it, so yes, I did not play it that much, but IMO, 3D games are always lacking in gameplay, and this particular game was originally designed for history students, not gamers.

Being turn-based certainly made MH more manageable, but not necessarilly better, than HoI.

_____________________________

Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.

"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to killroyishere)
Post #: 394
RE: HOI3 - 12/12/2009 9:50:57 PM   
LarryP


Posts: 3783
Joined: 5/15/2005
From: Carson City, NV
Status: offline 		I have both Making History and Making History Gold. I spent too much time with the economics of the games. Out of the 300+ games I have owned, I would play MH the least of all of them. I hate the game.

(in reply to Joe D.)
Post #: 395
RE: HOI3 - 12/13/2009 12:10:56 AM   
Joe D.


Posts: 4004
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From: Stratford, Connecticut
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LarryP

I have both Making History and Making History Gold. I spent too much time with the economics of the games. Out of the 300+ games I have owned, I would play MH the least of all of them. I hate the game.


You've obviously owned alot of games, so what specifically turned-you off to MH?

_____________________________

Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.

"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to LarryP)
Post #: 396
RE: HOI3 - 12/13/2009 2:09:17 AM   
LarryP


Posts: 3783
Joined: 5/15/2005
From: Carson City, NV
Status: offline 		The game has the personality of a bottle cap. The economic system requires constant babying. As far as it being anything related to a historical game... that's a joke. It is ahistorical, so if you like to do what the title says, Make History, then the game does that well.

We need 06Maestro to come in here and give us his take on the game. I suggested he buy the game which he did, and he has played it many hours. I owe him the price of the game now.

However, we are off topic.

(in reply to Joe D.)
Post #: 397
RE: HOI3 - 12/13/2009 2:45:18 AM   
killroyishere

 

Posts: 639
Joined: 4/23/2008
Status: offline 		All wargames of the ilk are ahistorical, MH, GGWAW, HOI, TOW, CEAW etc. etc. nothing new there they all change as we play them. Some are just better than others like Making History which gives a better flavor of ahistorical than the rest. Thus giving the game a lot of replayability over the others as well. As I said he obviously shows he didn't play the game enough to even understand what the principles were about and why it is better than the others. Economy is a major importance in any war I guess he can't handle anything more than beer & pretzels type games.

< Message edited by killroyishere -- 12/13/2009 2:46:46 AM >

(in reply to LarryP)
Post #: 398
RE: HOI3 - 12/13/2009 3:27:37 AM   
LarryP


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From: Carson City, NV
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quote:

ORIGINAL: killroyishere

Economy is a major importance in any war I guess he can't handle anything more than beer & pretzels type games.


I can name more war games that you don't manage economy. By far.

Who are you referring to when you say the above?

< Message edited by LarryP -- 12/13/2009 3:47:07 AM >

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Post #: 399
RE: HOI3 - 12/13/2009 5:04:36 AM   
06 Maestro


Posts: 3989
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From: Nevada, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LarryP

The game has the personality of a bottle cap. The economic system requires constant babying. As far as it being anything related to a historical game... that's a joke. It is ahistorical, so if you like to do what the title says, Make History, then the game does that well.

We need 06Maestro to come in here and give us his take on the game. I suggested he buy the game which he did, and he has played it many hours. I owe him the price of the game now.

However, we are off topic.


LOL-you don't owe me Larry-I tried the demo for many hours before I bought it. Problem is the demo did not let you get into the silly phase. I made the decision to buy it based on my analysis of the demo. I should have checked out some aar's also.

I thought that Making History had an interesting economic model. I would not say it is more accurate than HoI economics, but it is more interesting to me. What killed the game for me was things like Bulgaria declaring war on France and somehow seizing much of French territory even though Italy had already conquered the area. The diplomatic ai in that game is a comedian-I recall laughing out loud at the game. I did play it for a month or so, but had to give it up-it was like a joke. The one other aspect to MH which I had a hard time accepting (but did for a while) is the Risk like provinces and the way that battles are fought-and casualties taken. Entire divisions are taken as losses-just like in Risk where you loose you pieces. So you stack them up and go for it. Techs do help to add another dimension to it, but only so much. There is no operational decision making in MH-at all. It is purely strategic, but with Alice in Wonderland rationals.

For a grand strategy game I do not have any problem with it being turn based. I am neutral on that issue. If someone is adamant that it must be turn based then there is no sense in looking a HoI.

I have played HoI quite a bit over the last few months. I am quite aware of some of its shortcomings. I am also aware of many good aspects to the game. The HoI ai is not totally idiotic on the operational level-it gives a very good fight-until you break the line. Its ability to stay within historical realms is very limited if left entirely to the ai. However, if you want a historical game you can do that playing as Germany, but you have to utilize the tools to make it happen. In this respect, HoI clearly has MH beat by a mile. The techs and unit construction are light years ahead of MH. The map and unit level allow for operational considerations (cool thing in a war game). There are the historical leaders-hundreds of them with what is suppose to be something of RL traits assigned (tough call there-but it works). MH has none of these important attributes.

Making History has a strange fan base that surfaces once in a while. There was one fellow at Paradox raving (Freudian slip "Sic") about how wonderful MH is. However, the things he was saying about the game made it clear he never played it or even looked at its map. Likewise, he clearly did not own HoI either-some people get their jollies just running their mouth-even if they know they are clueless. I guess they assume everyone else is clueless also.

HoI has some remaining problems. The biggest changes/improvements will no doubt come about from the modding community. There is a large, loyal and very talented group of guy's that will take that base game and turn it into a fantastic strategy game-all in due time. Events can and will be added that will take care of the issues of unhistorical play from nearly every county in the world. I did not care for HoI2 vanilla, but I thought CORE and a couple of other mods made it a great game. The same will happen with HoI3.

As with many of these games (especially grand strategy), playing against humans gives the best results (reducing the importance of the ai). I am planning on doing that soon with HoI. When there is a new CORE mode for HoI then I may go back to SP. This ai problem is not unique to HoI3.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If someone likes MH-good for them, but they should not try to pretend that it compares favorably in its military aspects with HoI-that is over the top. Better economics-yea, I can go for that-trade too, but for war fighting-ain't no way.

BTW, I have saved every PC game I have purchased over the last 11 years-except for 2. I lost one (Distant Guns)due to some stupid DRM restrictions coupled with a total PC crash and Making History which I un-installed.



_____________________________

Banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies.

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Post #: 400
RE: HOI3 - 12/13/2009 5:08:39 AM   
06 Maestro


Posts: 3989
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From: Nevada, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LarryP

quote:

ORIGINAL: killroyishere

Economy is a major importance in any war I guess he can't handle anything more than beer & pretzels type games.


I can name more war games that you don't manage economy. By far.

Who are you referring to when you say the above?


I think I know who he means. It's quite OK though-we don't like the same kind of cookies either-and I'm comfortable with that.

_____________________________

Banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies.

Thomas Jefferson


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Post #: 401
RE: HOI3 - 12/13/2009 11:59:16 AM   
GoodGuy

 

Posts: 1506
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From: Cologne, Germany
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quote:

ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro

Entire divisions are taken as losses-just like in Risk where you loose you pieces. So you stack them up and go for it.


Btw, i played a few more HOI III sessions (well, with the mandatory "oh I better save the game now, the next crash may occur any second"-phrase in mind): I played "zeh" Germans the 1939 scenario, where you are at war with Poland. It even remains halfway historical, as the Frenchies and Brits don't attack... they mostly perform the "phony war", maybe with some ahistorical strategical bombings performed by the Brits, here and there. Then, after I finished Poland, I turned to France, captured Paris and proceeded to cut Cherbourg and La Rochelle, basically cutting Southern France from supply lines (as the Italians had stomped the Southern coast). The only French regions that held out were the ones on the Maginot-line, where all of these regions were defended by around 3 or 4 divisions, each. I had to stack units to no avail for each region, just to get the "0" indicator with a red background (the number indicating the battle progress). In fact, I ended up stacking 32 units (divisions, each had 8000-9000 troops), means some ridiculous massive contingent of 265,000 - 288,000 troops just to boot the few Frenchies from each of the fortified regions.

This game is so broken, it will take years to fix that.

quote:

I have played HoI quite a bit over the last few months. I am quite aware of some of its shortcomings.


I played through all the crashes and freezes in HOI III (yes I can be persistent at times, lol), because I wanted to know how the game behaves after let's say 1946. I got to 1948, just to figure that the aircraft attack menu loses some functionality on 1st of January 1948. If you want to change the duration of an aerial attack (so that the unit does not attack continuously), the counter will revert to the 1st of January 1948 even if your fight for world domination had progressed well into let's say March, resulting in your aircraft crews having a chat on the ground and putting their fingers in their noses. If you don't touch the duration, and if you just uncheck the "continuous" option and turn to other units/places, it will default to one month, usually resulting in heavy aircraft losses in case your opponent has a strong airforce. The menu lacks sliders where you can set a value for "maximum acceptable losses" figures (I can't find such an option at least). The game has hundreds of other issues and quirks, it's terrible.

I start to ask myself if there was ANY Beta tester involved at all.

< Message edited by GoodGuy -- 12/13/2009 12:07:07 PM >

_____________________________

"Aw Nuts"
General Anthony McAuliffe
December 22nd, 1944
Bastogne
---
"I've always felt that the AA (Alied Assault engine) had the potential to be [....] big."
Tim Stone
8th of August, 2006

(in reply to 06 Maestro)
Post #: 402
RE: HOI3 - 12/13/2009 1:38:05 PM   
Joe D.


Posts: 4004
Joined: 8/31/2005
From: Stratford, Connecticut
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quote:

ORIGINAL: killroyishere

All wargames of the ilk are ahistorical, MH, GGWAW, HOI, TOW, CEAW etc. etc. nothing new there they all change as we play them. Some are just better than others like Making History which gives a better flavor of ahistorical than the rest ....


It's apparent from your screen name that you're also "ahistorical": it's "kilroy," not "killroy".

quote:

ORIGINAL: killroyishere
... As I said he obviously shows he didn't play the game enough to even understand what the principles were about and why it is better than the others. Economy is a major importance in any war I guess he can't handle anything more than beer & pretzels type games.


I've "handled" everything from FoF to AE and MH just isn't in their league; MH was not developed for "gamers" which may explain why you are so fond of it.

_____________________________

Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.

"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to killroyishere)
Post #: 403
RE: HOI3 - 12/13/2009 1:43:52 PM   
Joe D.


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Joined: 8/31/2005
From: Stratford, Connecticut
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GoodGuy
... I start to ask myself if there was ANY Beta tester involved at all.


Yes, you!

I think anyone who bought HoI3 unknowingly "volunteered" as a Beta tester.

I also think I'll stick w/HoI2 DD; I even added another patch for it.

_____________________________

Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.

"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to GoodGuy)
Post #: 404
RE: HOI3 - 12/13/2009 1:53:41 PM   
Joe D.


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From: Stratford, Connecticut
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quote:

ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro
... What killed the game for me was things like Bulgaria declaring war on France and somehow seizing much of French territory even though Italy had already conquered the area.


I had similar issues w/"Superpower" which I think is now sold as "Commander-in-Chief"; it boasted a "neural net" learning program instead of scripted scenarios, but the most bizzare combos of countires would declare war on one another: it was just too surreal.

quote:

ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro
... BTW, I have saved every PC game I have purchased over the last 11 years-except for 2. I lost one (Distant Guns)due to some stupid DRM restrictions coupled with a total PC crash and Making History which I un-installed.


So MH is the only game you deliberately removed from your HD; that says it all.

_____________________________

Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.

"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to 06 Maestro)
Post #: 405
RE: HOI3 - 12/13/2009 5:33:43 PM   
06 Maestro


Posts: 3989
Joined: 10/12/2005
From: Nevada, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GoodGuy
... I start to ask myself if there was ANY Beta tester involved at all.


Yes, you!

I think anyone who bought HoI3 unknowingly "volunteered" as a Beta tester.

I also think I'll stick w/HoI2 DD; I even added another patch for it.


Oh well, its a dirty job, but someone has to do it. I have been eyeballing my DD version with the new CORE mod-a truly well done mod. It is a bummer though in that the new game has so many better things. This causes a dilemma; the result of which is that I'm not playing either. This will be a gaming day for me-I just might fire up III-Goodguy has got my curiosity going with the France situation.


_____________________________

Banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies.

Thomas Jefferson


(in reply to Joe D.)
Post #: 406
RE: HOI3 - 12/13/2009 5:49:38 PM   
GoodGuy

 

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From: Cologne, Germany
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quote:

ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro

This will be a gaming day for me-I just might fire up III-Goodguy has got my curiosity going with the France situation.


I should add that the particular maginot regions were cut off (since most of France was conquered), means my units attacked from the front (east to west), from the North, and from behind (west to east), so the French AI couldn't pump units to these locations - like it usually does in the beginning - anymore.

Unless my faction's intel was off (which showed some 3-5 units at the end), I consider it to be a bug. I could imagine that it's both, a bug and the result of the changes they made to the "fortified region" parameter. They upped the benefit to units defending such regions it seems, guess they had Sevastopol and the Maginot-Line in mind. Whatsoever, it's unreal.

< Message edited by GoodGuy -- 12/13/2009 5:52:45 PM >

_____________________________

"Aw Nuts"
General Anthony McAuliffe
December 22nd, 1944
Bastogne
---
"I've always felt that the AA (Alied Assault engine) had the potential to be [....] big."
Tim Stone
8th of August, 2006

(in reply to 06 Maestro)
Post #: 407
RE: HOI3 - 12/13/2009 5:56:48 PM   
killroyishere

 

Posts: 639
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

quote:

ORIGINAL: killroyishere

All wargames of the ilk are ahistorical, MH, GGWAW, HOI, TOW, CEAW etc. etc. nothing new there they all change as we play them. Some are just better than others like Making History which gives a better flavor of ahistorical than the rest ....


It's apparent from your screen name that you're also "ahistorical": it's "kilroy," not "killroy".

quote:

ORIGINAL: killroyishere
... As I said he obviously shows he didn't play the game enough to even understand what the principles were about and why it is better than the others. Economy is a major importance in any war I guess he can't handle anything more than beer & pretzels type games.


I've "handled" everything from FoF to AE and MH just isn't in their league; MH was not developed for "gamers" which may explain why you are so fond of it.


And let me guess the D in your online name stands for Dumb***

I didn't make my online name to be historical with kilroy it's killroy but I guess you can't comprehend the difference like you can't comprehend the value in Making History.

(in reply to Joe D.)
Post #: 408
RE: HOI3 - 12/13/2009 5:57:44 PM   
Joe D.


Posts: 4004
Joined: 8/31/2005
From: Stratford, Connecticut
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GoodGuy
... I could imagine that it's both, a bug and the result of the changes they made to the "fortified region" parameter. They upped the benefit to units defending such regions it seems, guess they had Sevastopol and the Maginot-Line in mind. Whatsoever, it's unreal.


On the HoI3 website, Paradox said they added many more provinces for better end-around armor penetrations; perhaps that's their way of working-around the upped benefits to defending units.

_____________________________

Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.

"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to GoodGuy)
Post #: 409
RE: HOI3 - 12/13/2009 11:56:10 PM   
Joe D.


Posts: 4004
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From: Stratford, Connecticut
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quote:

ORIGINAL: killroyishere

... I didn't make my online name to be historical with kilroy it's killroy but I guess you can't comprehend the difference like you can't comprehend the value in Making History.


I "comprehend" the value MH has for HS students who need help w/their WW II history lessons, which may explain your affinity for it.


_____________________________

Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.

"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to killroyishere)
Post #: 410
RE: HOI3 - 12/14/2009 12:10:03 AM   
killroyishere

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

quote:

ORIGINAL: killroyishere

... I didn't make my online name to be historical with kilroy it's killroy but I guess you can't comprehend the difference like you can't comprehend the value in Making History.


I "comprehend" the value MH has for HS students who need help w/their WW II history lessons, which may explain your affinity for it.



Just as I thought you can't comprehend the FULL value of MH. That's ok there are many out there who only prefer beer & prezels games I'm sure HOI III will suit you fine.

(in reply to Joe D.)
Post #: 411
RE: HOI3 - 12/14/2009 12:57:32 AM   
Joe D.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: killroyishere

... Just as I thought you can't comprehend the FULL value of MH ...


The "full value" of MH lies w/students who haven't graduated to better sims.

_____________________________

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"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to killroyishere)
Post #: 412
RE: HOI3 - 12/14/2009 8:13:25 AM   
JudgeDredd


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quote:

ORIGINAL: killroyishere


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

quote:

ORIGINAL: killroyishere

... I didn't make my online name to be historical with kilroy it's killroy but I guess you can't comprehend the difference like you can't comprehend the value in Making History.


I "comprehend" the value MH has for HS students who need help w/their WW II history lessons, which may explain your affinity for it.



Just as I thought you can't comprehend the FULL value of MH. That's ok there are many out there who only prefer beer & prezels games I'm sure HOI III will suit you fine.

lol - HoI3 might be a shambles and might need more patches than it's ever going to get, but beer and pretzels games it is not!

If you are seriously (I did see the smiley) saying MH is NOT B&P and HoI3 IS B&P, then I'm afraid at some point you seem to have misunderstood what makes a beer and pretzels game

(in reply to killroyishere)
Post #: 413
RE: HOI3 - 12/14/2009 8:39:45 PM   
killroyishere

 

Posts: 639
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Status: offline 		Lol JD you had to come in and spoil it for me. I was having fun.

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Post #: 414
RE: HOI3 - 12/14/2009 9:51:22 PM   
JudgeDredd


Posts: 8573
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
Status: offline 		lol - ok...sorry...I'll stay out and watch from the sidelines

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Post #: 415
RE: HOI3 - 12/14/2009 10:03:16 PM   
LarryP


Posts: 3783
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From: Carson City, NV
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

lol - ok...sorry...I'll stay out and watch from the sidelines


You should say what's on your mind Judge.

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Post #: 416
RE: HOI3 - 3/29/2010 7:21:54 PM   
Greybriar


Posts: 1148
Joined: 2/9/2007
Status: offline 		Patch 1.4 for Hearts of Iron III is out. Read all about it here.

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Post #: 417
RE: HOI3 - 3/29/2010 7:53:14 PM   
JudgeDredd


Posts: 8573
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From: Scotland
Status: offline 		Thanks Greybriar. Lets hope this is the one!

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Alba gu' brath

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Post #: 418
RE: HOI3 - 3/29/2010 8:32:41 PM   
DampSquib


Posts: 425
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From: UK
Status: offline 		Well you would think so the list was long enough....Here's to patch 1.5..ever the optimist.
But yeah Thanks Greybriar.

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Post #: 419
RE: HOI3 - 3/30/2010 8:34:24 AM   
Widell


Posts: 913
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: Trollhättan, Sweden
Status: offline 		I at least (now! some 4 months after release and a new comp later) seem to be able to run HoI3 without too many workarounds. Just need to make sure I start it as Admin under Win 7 and stay off any of the video and audio settings and it seems stable (fingers crossed!). Also, looking at the mods that are in development (aka CORE being my long time favourite from HoI and HoI2) I have no issues admitting I will spend a few long nights with HoI3 too!

The downside is that my HoI2 AAR will most likely never finish: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=241317 but that's the fate of most AAR's I guess.

EDIT: I stand corrected! It has been over six, close to seven, months to get HoI3 running without CTD, but I refuse to give in!

< Message edited by Widell -- 3/30/2010 8:44:54 AM >

(in reply to DampSquib)
Post #: 420
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