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WaW Revised Version R Available

 
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WaW Revised Version R Available - 8/5/2009 2:20:23 PM   
explorer2

 

Posts: 465
Joined: 11/30/2007
Status: offline 		Version R Changes

Download at http://www.advancedtactics.org/scenario.php?nr=82

Feature Changes
Soviet Siberian Factories (created after GE defeats major SU cities) now able to build everything except PP and ships
Extra supply to SU in winter when awake but not at war reduced
Glasgow eliminated as resource center for UK
SU Aid to China goes directly to Chungking, but requires China to control Urumchi and Lanzhou

Fixes
West able to give aid to Soviet Union only after SU at war with GE
Northern Blitz messages not repeating
Check PP in France Card working properly
Long Range Fighter I no longer upgradeable to Long Range Fighter II
SU Far East HQ given Stavka as its HQ instead of no HQ


< Message edited by explorer2 -- 8/5/2009 3:04:30 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: WaW Revised Version R Available - 8/5/2009 9:43:03 PM   
british exil


Posts: 1686
Joined: 5/4/2006
From: Lower Saxony Germany
Status: offline 		Playing PBEM as Axis. Started game with Q version.
Replayed opening turn with Q fixed patch, only to read that R is now available.

Have asked Allied player if we should replay 1st turn again.

You got any more tricks up your arm explorer?

Just keep up the good work, but take your time. I'd like to play the 2nd turn.

_____________________________

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(in reply to explorer2)
Post #: 2
RE: WaW Revised Version R Available - 8/5/2009 10:02:18 PM   
explorer2

 

Posts: 465
Joined: 11/30/2007
Status: offline 		Since it's just one turn, and you're going to be at it quite awhile, I would do it again.
One new feature coming in next day or so I expect is France Frozen Option, where France is asleep until Germany invades. Trying to make it an option you can choose at game start. Having some trouble making it work in all the possible different situations.
You choose if you want to wait for that or not.
No other bugs/errors, etc. have been reported.

(in reply to british exil)
Post #: 3
RE: WaW Revised Version R Available - 8/6/2009 1:19:44 AM   
HamburgerHill


Posts: 152
Joined: 6/30/2009
Status: offline 		Sound like some solid changes.

For the record... In the game Apren and I were playing the Battle for the Atlantic was perfect as was the Battle for North Africa. Both were a constant see saw battle with one side gaining advantage then losing it to the other then back again.
I'm not sure what the problems were with Soviets since I was playing Axis but I did seem to be having an easy go of it, and it felt as though i was going to overun them in short order.

Nice work thanx

(in reply to explorer2)
Post #: 4
RE: WaW Revised Version R Available - 8/6/2009 4:59:15 AM   
explorer2

 

Posts: 465
Joined: 11/30/2007
Status: offline 		Really happy to hear of the good balance HamburgerHill.
Can you tell me when you invaded SU? and how many turns had gone by and where were you in the conquest, and what month was it?
If it's "perfect" balance, GE should be on outskirts of Moscow & Leningrad when winter sets in. If you get there before hand, you're in great shape, after, and it's any body's game, or at least that's my hope.

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Post #: 5
RE: WaW Revised Version R Available - 8/6/2009 8:20:51 AM   
HamburgerHill


Posts: 152
Joined: 6/30/2009
Status: offline 		I think Appren's explaination of the events on the Soviet front are consistent with what I was seeing on my end.
I waited until April of 42' to launch my attack and opened my attack with 6 bombing raids on Soviet cities and production centers. Each of these 6  bomber units contained 10 level bombers. Since the Soviets never activated prior to my attack he never had a chance to build any kind of air defence even if he wanted to. As each turn continued and my armies pushed forward I also moved my bombers forward and continued to smash every city and production center within range. It looked as though Appren was spending what little production he could muster on building engineers to repair his cities and trying to establish air defences in Moscow. Had we continued I think I would have likely captured Moscow, Leningrad, and Stalingrad maybe 2 turns before winter hit. Leningrad maybe could have held out until winter.
Had Soviets activated in Jan. 41' and Appren built some air defences it would have been a totally different war. Because of the activation issue I can't say one way or the other if the Soviet front was balanced.
We are going to start a new game using version R (This time I'll be allies). We'll keep you updated.

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Post #: 6
RE: WaW Revised Version R Available - 8/6/2009 11:34:06 AM   
Appren


Posts: 179
Joined: 6/5/2008
Status: offline 		In our previous game the Soviets only had their starting forces, so they were beyond helpless. Lets see what happens when we get there in the current game. :)

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Post #: 7
RE: WaW Revised Version R Available - 8/6/2009 4:55:21 PM   
explorer2

 

Posts: 465
Joined: 11/30/2007
Status: offline 		Very, very, very helpful game report guys.
I have made the Level Bomber ranges historically accurate, but I have NOT attempted to discover and accurtely put in place AA.
For the West, it's not really an issue, since you can build them. For Soviet Union however........ you have discovered the problem.
Since Germany never historically produced many true long range level bombers, I had not thought about using this approach against SU.

So I'll do a little research to see what air defenses (aside from the air forces which got annhilated early on) SU had in place, if any. Even if I have to reduce historical accuracy, Appren (brilliant thinking!) has discoverd a way that seems to make it impossible for SU to compete, as things currenly stand.

More later.......

(in reply to Appren)
Post #: 8
RE: WaW Revised Version R Available - 8/6/2009 10:15:38 PM   
british exil


Posts: 1686
Joined: 5/4/2006
From: Lower Saxony Germany
Status: offline 		Looking forward to your command: Go ahead, scenario is ready.

My panzers and Inf are waiting to hit Poland. Ready to hit back.

_____________________________

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Post #: 9
RE: WaW Revised Version R Available - 8/11/2009 3:36:06 AM   
kirkgregerson

 

Posts: 497
Joined: 4/9/2008
Status: offline 		Just started a game. Think maybe still bug as I can't upgrade a CA as allies in London that starts there. Why not? Shows HQ has like 1700+ supply? Hope this is not a bug, cause it seems obvious??

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Post #: 10
RE: WaW Revised Version R Available - 8/11/2009 4:57:39 AM   
explorer2

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kirkgregerson

Just started a game. Think maybe still bug as I can't upgrade a CA as allies in London that starts there. Why not? Shows HQ has like 1700+ supply? Hope this is not a bug, cause it seems obvious??


Without knowing the specifics, I'm guessing you don't have enough XP in the unit yet, esp. if it's at the beginning of the game.
Check that out, and if you'd like, send me the game file and any passwords, and I'll see what I can see.

(in reply to kirkgregerson)
Post #: 11
RE: WaW Revised Version R Available - 8/11/2009 5:19:46 AM   
Tufkal2

 

Posts: 834
Joined: 12/31/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline
quote:

Just started a game. Think maybe still bug as I can't upgrade a CA as allies in London that starts there. Why not? Shows HQ has like 1700+ supply? Hope this is not a bug, cause it seems obvious??


I think there is not enough supply available. In this version you need 3000 supply iirc for an upgrade to cruiser II. Expensive but worth it I think once you have this much accumulated ...

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Post #: 12
RE: WaW Revised Version R Available - 8/11/2009 7:32:09 AM   
kirkgregerson

 

Posts: 497
Joined: 4/9/2008
Status: offline 		ummm yeah, about that 3,000. Well I kinda think it will hurt the allies very badly...sigh. So what is a BB, like 5,000? lol


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Post #: 13
RE: WaW Revised Version R Available - 8/12/2009 2:30:56 AM   
Appren


Posts: 179
Joined: 6/5/2008
Status: offline 		Woops. I had a little "accident" in my German game. In 1940 I was trying to keep a small garrison on the Soviet border, so they would not activate early, but then in January they declared war since my garrison was too small. Maybe add a 1 month gap between the need for a minimal garrison, and when you need to start having a big garrison, and a popup warning in December? It is easy to miss this vital info in the huge briefing. I have only myself to blame of course, I should have read the briefing better, but still


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Post #: 14
RE: WaW Revised Version R Available - 8/12/2009 11:50:06 PM   
explorer2

 

Posts: 465
Joined: 11/30/2007
Status: offline 		Appren-
That's a really good idea. I'll work on something to help, but if you're like me, you cycle through the beginning of turn messages pretty quickly.
I don't know of any way to change the text: font, color, size, etc... to make the warning real obvious, but I'll see what I can do.

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Post #: 15
RE: WaW Revised Version R Available - 8/13/2009 8:54:14 AM   
HamburgerHill


Posts: 152
Joined: 6/30/2009
Status: offline 		I think it would be best if you just took the turn over Appren.
To have the Soviets activated so early in the Winter like this and going into full production right away. All the while I'm guessing 40% of your eastern army is still fighting it out in he Balkins. This is a really bad place for the Germans to be I think.

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Post #: 16
RE: WaW Revised Version R Available - 8/13/2009 9:34:19 AM   
Appren


Posts: 179
Joined: 6/5/2008
Status: offline 		I'd probably rewrite the entire Soviet border PP check, to be honest. Instead of having a max limit before Jan 1941, and then suddenly needing a high amount, how about simply requiring the German player to maintain at least a 1000-1500pp garrison on the border after January 40, and no change later. Something simple at least, and the German player would get several turns of popups after the invasion of Poland finish, to prepare this.

Also, a comment on "4. Bomber Research divided into 2 categories: Dive Bomber and Level Bomber, each costing half of the original total Advantage: neutral? (GE will not start with Level Bomber tech though)" from your previous post. I do not think this is wise, as it would make specializing into high level of research on a particular bomber type much too cheap. Keep bomber research as it is, I'd say, or perhaps 2 new research at something like 80-90% of the original cost.


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Post #: 17
RE: WaW Revised Version R Available - 8/14/2009 7:28:23 AM   
HamburgerHill


Posts: 152
Joined: 6/30/2009
Status: offline 		@Explorer

Appren and I are discussing the problems with the air war in the west. As you know from earlier discussions on the subject. The German air force is pretty much grounded in the winter since the loss in rediness causes the intercept range of German fighter to shrink down to 0 for level 1 fighters and higher level fighters might be able to reach a range of 1 or 2 maybe. Defending against a full strength bombing campaign from the west can be very difficult.

Since it is not possible to remove the rediness penalty from air units located in a winter hex. Perhaps it would be possible to remove the effects of winter from major cities in western Europe. Like Paris and most of the German cities. This way all units located in the city would escape the rediness penalty including air units.

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Post #: 18
RE: WaW Revised Version R Available - 8/14/2009 1:54:00 PM   
explorer2

 

Posts: 465
Joined: 11/30/2007
Status: offline 		@Appren
Regarding GE/SU border garrison requirement:
It absolutely bites big time if GE doesn't keep it up. But IMHO it adds a significant game element to have it a variable amount. It gives SU something to hope for by "bull-rushing" the border, but it's a gamble for SU, because if they try that strategy and it doesn't work, GE can just really tear them up.
I don't think it's too much to ask the GE player to pay attention a lot to their numbers - they're clearly reported each turn. I'll try to put another warning or 2, but like I said previously, AT message screen has no ability for large fonts, bold, etc.... so it's hard to make a message stand out.

Bomber Research: you're right, it will make specializing easier. How much it effects total game balance I think we need some game reports to discover. If it proves to make a significant negative impact, it will be easy to adjust the numbers higher.

@Hamburger Hill:
From what I've been reading, I think you guys seem to have a pretty good system for housee rules for air. Wish I could make them into game rules, but of course that's not possible.
Your idea about winter readiness has merit IMHO. I'd love it if people could weigh in on their thoughts about this. It could have unintended consequences however, since it would also effect land units. I think it probably would have some pretty strong game balance repurcussions, like when/if the West is invading GE held territory.
Let's think this one through carefully and get as many voices as possible on this one.
If you'd like and have time to test it, I could make a special version that does this and you could test it out.
Let me know.

Thanks for all the good thinking and discussion here.

(in reply to HamburgerHill)
Post #: 19
RE: WaW Revised Version R Available - 8/14/2009 4:35:35 PM   
HamburgerHill


Posts: 152
Joined: 6/30/2009
Status: offline 		That is a consequence I had not thought of. It may not be a major one though.
In theory it would make taking a German city in western Europe more difficult during winter months. But if the Germans are in any real danger of losing one of there home cities to the West or the Soviets, there game is pretty well finished at that point anyway.

I suggest only making enough German cities permanent summer zones to mount an effective air defence against against west. Example:Essen, Dusseldorf, and colongne are clustered together. If just Essen were released from winter then fighters posted there could protect all three. The other cites I would propose releasing are Hamburg, Berlin, Prague, and Munich. The other German cities in the East would be out of reach if the Brits wanted to give the bombers fighter escorts and would be easier to defend as a result. Paris would be the only captured city I would suggest releasing.

I would like to here some other opinions here as well. I know Appren agrees but I would like to know how others feel.

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Post #: 20
RE: WaW Revised Version R Available - 8/14/2009 5:01:22 PM   
explorer2

 

Posts: 465
Joined: 11/30/2007
Status: offline 		Another consequence of permanent summer GE cities would be on supply - they wouldn't use as much supply in winter.
A smart GE player it seems would load almost all of his units in these cities. They would be very strong (no readiness hit) and he would typically use about 1/3 as much supply overall ( he couldn't put ALL his units in these cities) & if they're mobile, IF some weird unexpected invasion came to a true winter city he didn't have many units in, the mobile units garrisoned in summer cities could quickly go over in full strength and crush the invasion.

Something to think about.

(in reply to HamburgerHill)
Post #: 21
RE: WaW Revised Version R Available - 8/14/2009 7:58:31 PM   
HamburgerHill


Posts: 152
Joined: 6/30/2009
Status: offline 		I have suggested to Appren adopting a house rule that would limit the West to only being able to bomb one axis controlled city affected by winter a turn. It is an acceptable alturnative for me. For me it would be too much of a sacrifice to call off all my bombing raids in the winter as the west needs to keep some pressure on the Germans.

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Post #: 22
RE: WaW Revised Version R Available - 8/14/2009 8:05:04 PM   
explorer2

 

Posts: 465
Joined: 11/30/2007
Status: offline 		My best solution at the moment for future versions is to give UK winter like the rest of Western Europe. That would even the odds.
That would also cause a VERY difficult supply situation for UK, perhaps creating a major game imbalance, so I will consider giving them winter, but a supply bonus somehow. That's my best thought at the moment.

And don't forget that AA is pretty effective and will work no matter what its readiness is, and level bombers or fighters rarely kill AA (Dive bombers will though).
If you don't have AA in all your GE cities, that's not because of a problem with winter.

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Post #: 23
RE: WaW Revised Version R Available - 8/14/2009 8:25:21 PM   
HamburgerHill


Posts: 152
Joined: 6/30/2009
Status: offline 		Yea, I had considered that as well. I'm Not sure if that would be the right move or not. It would be a major change for the brits considering the huge amounts of supply needed just by there navy alone. It is true also that the AA will only be mildly affected by the rediness penalty. The only real problem is the intercept range of german fighters.
In my last game as Germans I ended up building several small formations consisting of 5 fighters in each to cover my production cities instead of 3 or 4 larger formations. This way i would have at least some coverage in most cities in case of bombing during winter months when my fighters could only cover the city they were stationed in.
I think the game is quit playable the way it is, but would recommend some players may want to consider adopting some house rules for level bombing in the West during winter months. IMHO

Thanx for all the work you do Explorer. 

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Post #: 24
RE: WaW Revised Version R Available - 8/14/2009 9:25:31 PM   
british exil


Posts: 1686
Joined: 5/4/2006
From: Lower Saxony Germany
Status: offline
quote:

@Appren
Regarding GE/SU border garrison requirement:
It absolutely bites big time if GE doesn't keep it up. But IMHO it adds a significant game element to have it a variable amount. It gives SU something to hope for by "bull-rushing" the border, but it's a gamble for SU, because if they try that strategy and it doesn't work, GE can just really tear them up.
I don't think it's too much to ask the GE player to pay attention a lot to their numbers - they're clearly reported each turn. I'll try to put another warning or 2, but like I said previously, AT message screen has no ability for large fonts, bold, etc.... so it's hard to make a message stand out.


There is still the free hand card that gives you the information how many PP you have on the border.this card can be played for free, as often as you want. Move units around the border hexes use the card to check your status. Move a unit or two use the card again. Works great, just remember to have a few big units near the border to keep the figures stable.

_____________________________

"It is not enough to expect a man to pay for the best, you must also give him what he pays for." Alfred Dunhill

WitE,UV,AT,ATG,FoF,FPCRS

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Post #: 25
RE: WaW Revised Version R Available - 8/15/2009 10:14:14 AM   
Appren


Posts: 179
Joined: 6/5/2008
Status: offline 		True, that card is very useful, same with the new French one.

After playing several games (to 1941/42 at least) against 3 different players, as both axis and allies, I'll have to say that the range of level bombers are too high. Tech 1 level bombers from the UK should not be able to bomb northern Italy, Vienna and Munich in my opinion. I'd suggest something like this. Level 1 bombers = 10 range, level 2 = 15, and level 3 = 20. Needing to research higher levels of bombers for deep strikes makes sense I'd say.

< Message edited by Appren -- 8/15/2009 1:01:09 PM >

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Post #: 26
RE: WaW Revised Version R Available - 8/15/2009 9:24:54 PM   
Appren


Posts: 179
Joined: 6/5/2008
Status: offline 		Hmm, can you check the supply use for Germany, Explorer? The use went up in the winter (40/41) as expected, but so far (June 41) it has not gone down again when winter was over. Current "OutRq" from OKW is a bit over 37k, and 90% of my factories are building supplies (and still failling short of delivering the full request), and this was with the Italian fleet at sea for the turn. In comparison, the OutRq in nov 40 was 11k with the (somewhat smaller at that point) Italian fleet docked. The Japanese can not make enough supplies in June 41 either, with 9 of 10 factories building supplies, and getting 9k from the US this turn.

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Post #: 27
RE: WaW Revised Version R Available - 8/16/2009 8:48:03 PM   
HamburgerHill


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Appren

True, that card is very useful, same with the new French one.

After playing several games (to 1941/42 at least) against 3 different players, as both axis and allies, I'll have to say that the range of level bombers are too high. Tech 1 level bombers from the UK should not be able to bomb northern Italy, Vienna and Munich in my opinion. I'd suggest something like this. Level 1 bombers = 10 range, level 2 = 15, and level 3 = 20. Needing to research higher levels of bombers for deep strikes makes sense I'd say.

IMHO... If the range of level bombers were to be adjusted then I think you would have to split the bomber research tree into 2 lines for sure. The brits already have to research fighter 3 to get long range fighters.
Northern Italy may be a stretch for british bombers but most of Germany was well in range of British bombers at the start of the war and the brits in fact Bombed Berlin many dozens of times during 1940 using large formations of 80 to a 100 bombers mostly sometimes even larger formations. I believe the Wellington IC was the primary bomber used by the brits in those raids.

In order to maintain historical accuracy British bombers would have to start with the ability to bomb Berlin from London. The distance from London to Berlin is 935 km and the Wellingtin IC which the brits had produced something like 2600 aircraft leading up to and in 1940 had a combat range of 1900 - 2500 km's (Depending on size of bomb load)

(in reply to Appren)
Post #: 28
RE: WaW Revised Version R Available - 8/16/2009 9:54:31 PM   
Appren


Posts: 179
Joined: 6/5/2008
Status: offline 		Yes, I agree. If you change bomber ranges, it makes sense to split the research tree.

Holding off on more turns until I get a response on the supply issue (moving tomorrow as well, so no rush :p )

< Message edited by Appren -- 8/16/2009 10:07:24 PM >

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Post #: 29
RE: WaW Revised Version R Available - 8/21/2009 8:47:01 AM   
Appren


Posts: 179
Joined: 6/5/2008
Status: offline 		I checked some parts of the supply use again. I reloaded a savegame from Nov 40, and the increase in supply use to the current state in August 41 is quite staggering. For instance, I have several units of 1 x Flak Immobile I, which in November used 8 supply each, while in August they use 22. A recon unit in France went up from 66 to 99, and a fort in Kiel went up from 28 to 82!

I do not understand this.


Edit: In August 29, 1941, it seems supply levels are finally going back to normal, at least when checking the before mentioned units. Just in time for the next winter!

< Message edited by Appren -- 8/21/2009 12:58:37 PM >

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Post #: 30
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