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RE: The Map - 10/15/2009 9:09:12 PM   
Bomber Harris

 

Posts: 5
Joined: 10/1/2009
Status: offline 		Did nobody else see earlier in this thread where someone voluntered to work on the map?

(in reply to JudgeDredd)
Post #: 31
RE: The Map - 10/15/2009 9:19:31 PM   
Oliver Heindorf


Posts: 1911
Joined: 5/1/2002
From: Hamburg/Deutschland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

Ok - SireChaos bought the game. He's found something in it that bugs him. We've all done that. Is it minor to most other people? Probably. Is it major to some other people? Possibly.

The point is he's bought a game and he has a gripe with it. Personally I see it as the equivalent to rivet counting in a flight sim...but he's paid his money and something in it bugs him and he would like it fixed. To be honest here, suggesting the guy fixes it himself isn't the answer. It appears there are "issues" (major or minor to individuals) and that someone has a legitimate request to the devs to fix it.

Like I said, I would like other things to be looked as a priority over this...he would like this looked at.

So I think it should be dropped here and his request can be handled by the dev team. There's no point in beating anyone up over this...his request is as valid as anyone elses. There's nothing worse than spotting something in a game that annoys you...'cos you won't see past it.



Good post Mr Dredd ! ( Not to say you are a judge )

Being german I wondered myself about the map and some things here and there. But I never dared to past about that - becasue I dont care. I am with the posters here saying it is not that important. there are other important things to go after.

the team does not deserve these words, mr chaos. in other words : beruhig dich, Burschi

< Message edited by Oliver Heindorf -- 10/15/2009 9:20:07 PM >

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Post #: 32
RE: The Map - 10/15/2009 9:29:45 PM   
Derfel


Posts: 85
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Aalborg, Denmark
Status: offline 		The map is actally not that good, but this is not a new game ans as it is still in development , I hope that we can give some input and hopefully they might be implemented.

For example the radar sites are a bit odd.
For a good site that show where the radarsites were located go to http://gyges.dk. That site has some very good sources on the location of radars all over Europe, even the mobile/Eisenbahn Radars that were employed. (Another idea to the wishlist?)

For example look at the Danish Radar sites here:
http://gyges.dk/Flugmeldemess%20Stellungen.htm

You will see that the radar position called Fredericia is located near Esbjerg in the game. Fredericia is located at the eastern coast, Esbjerg is at the Western coast.
Esbjerg is called Büffel on the map, Fredericia had no radar, the most close position would be the Fledermaus position.
Oh by the way I live in Denmark although I am geographically challenged(spelling?).

(in reply to Toby42)
Post #: 33
RE: The Map - 10/15/2009 9:48:45 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		Thank you, if I have something to work with, I got a better chance of fixing it

Radar is as is, I didn't really have too much on where they were, so left them as is

from I see, it looks like the top of Denmark is cut off, can you tell me where cut off and the radar map, match up ?



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Post #: 34
RE: The Map - 10/15/2009 10:48:39 PM   
Derfel


Posts: 85
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Aalborg, Denmark
Status: offline 		As far as I can see then this is the cut off line.

This means that the Airfields of Aalborg and Frederikshavn are above the line, therefore they still have to be positioned aproximately where they are now.






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Post #: 35
RE: The Map - 10/16/2009 2:27:19 AM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		thank you, that give me a much better idea of the area

I got a screen capture of the page, so will see what I can

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Post #: 36
RE: The Map - 10/16/2009 11:49:50 AM   
SireChaos

 

Posts: 710
Joined: 8/14/2006
From: Frankfurt, Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Treale


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dobey

You say you know the EDTBTR map is wrong because you live in Europe. If that's the case how do you know the AE map is so highly accurate?


HA!!! A good question???


That´s because, educated person that I am, I know that there are such things as maps (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Map), and I know it is possible to look at them and see what regions look like.

Plus I know how to read, and read what the WitP-AE map team has written about its work. Nevermind that AE actually has a map team, something the BtR team obviously couldn´t be bothered with.

(in reply to Toby42)
Post #: 37
RE: The Map - 10/16/2009 3:42:08 PM   
kirbykern

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 2/14/2005
Status: offline 		I really don't think the OOB/map comparison is fair. The map(s) are very detailed pieces of artwork requiring, I assume, a huge amount of time on someones part to create or change. Then there is the logistics of lining up the target information with the map art. Again, not a trivial task.

The OOB is simply a database. You are not creating a piece of art for each and every pilot, for instance.

Every development team needs to prioritize and pick their battles carefully. Personally, I think the OOB is more important than the map. Others may disagree.

(in reply to SireChaos)
Post #: 38
RE: The Map - 10/16/2009 4:12:40 PM   
Golden Bear

 

Posts: 190
Joined: 3/27/2006
Status: offline 		OK, can we put this to bed? We recognize that somebody or somebodies are upset about the map.

Somebody has volunteered to try to improve it... BTW I took a look at the art and decided that would be the least of the problems. Moving cities around becomes a huge issue. If the poor fellow who has volunteered can have permission to leave them alone and try to clean up some geography around them, it might be doable.

Carlos

(in reply to kirbykern)
Post #: 39
RE: The Map - 10/16/2009 4:40:31 PM   
Nicholas Bell

 

Posts: 549
Joined: 4/10/2006
From: Eagle River, Alaska
Status: offline
quote:

If the poor fellow who has volunteered can have permission to leave them alone and try to clean up some geography around them, it might be doable.


That's me . The problem with that idea is the geography cannot be fixed and made any better because the map does not conform to any map projection - everything is distorted. As I mentioned, when I attempted to fix the geography graphics (the map you see) it only highlighted the distortion in target locations - especially on the coast. So it really needs to be done from the ground up.

What this entails is sizing & scaling an actual map of the area so that it works within the game's coordinate system. I'm pretty sure that the coordinate system is pixel based, although I could be wrong. In any case once you have a real map overlaid on the coordinate map it isn't particularily difficult to note that town "ABC" is located a coordinate X,Y.

I acknowledge that some "fudging" will be necessary to prevent target overlap in the map - that is standard stuff in wargaming.

One thing that might nix the whole idea is if some coordinate information is hard-coded, ie front line data, specific "invisible" stuff Harley has mentioned, or other features. I am not proposing to make more work for him!

< Message edited by Nicholas Bell -- 10/16/2009 4:41:19 PM >

(in reply to Golden Bear)
Post #: 40
RE: The Map - 10/16/2009 5:26:59 PM   
Golden Bear

 

Posts: 190
Joined: 3/27/2006
Status: offline 		It might be even more complicated. The map covers a sizeable area of the globe which is roughly spherical. There is no way to convert a spherical surface to a flat surface without distorting relative positions. That's part of why I started thinking to leave locations alone and do the best you can with the graphics.

The area under discussion in this thread is around Frankfurt. Examination of the map art tile for the region shows that the eastward jog of the Rhine is too far north of the river. But after dragging that into some reasonable place, the Rhine north of it is all messy and takes even more work.

I don't believe that it is something that can be successfully approached from a perfectly objective basis because of the sphere-flat thing along with the need to keep relative flight times sort of correct. It looks like it takes an artistic approach along with a good feel for relative positions to make it work correctly and make it look, well, pretty good.


Carlos

(in reply to Nicholas Bell)
Post #: 41
RE: The Map - 10/16/2009 5:31:10 PM   
Richard III


Posts: 710
Joined: 10/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nicholas Bell


quote:

If the poor fellow who has volunteered can have permission to leave them alone and try to clean up some geography around them, it might be doable.


That's me . The problem with that idea is the geography cannot be fixed and made any better because the map does not conform to any map projection - everything is distorted. As I mentioned, when I attempted to fix the geography graphics (the map you see) it only highlighted the distortion in target locations - especially on the coast. So it really needs to be done from the ground up.

What this entails is sizing & scaling an actual map of the area so that it works within the game's coordinate system. I'm pretty sure that the coordinate system is pixel based, although I could be wrong. In any case once you have a real map overlaid on the coordinate map it isn't particularily difficult to note that town "ABC" is located a coordinate X,Y.

I acknowledge that some "fudging" will be necessary to prevent target overlap in the map - that is standard stuff in wargaming.

One thing that might nix the whole idea is if some coordinate information is hard-coded, ie front line data, specific "invisible" stuff Harley has mentioned, or other features. I am not proposing to make more work for him!


In case folks don`t know, Nick has sent many years working with Scott Hamilton at HPS and creating Maps for them as well as scenarios and _legal_ editors for WIP, WIR and others. He can do it if it can be done .....

(in reply to Nicholas Bell)
Post #: 42
RE: The Map - 10/16/2009 8:24:19 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		I was able to move the sites, but the names are HARD coded, so changing the names does not take

I like getting a Mammut up there


quote:

ORIGINAL: Derfel

As far as I can see then this is the cut off line.

This means that the Airfields of Aalborg and Frederikshavn are above the line, therefore they still have to be positioned aproximately where they are now.







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Post #: 43
RE: The Map - 10/16/2009 8:51:17 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		I think our map is a little more angled then that one

so I added Rabe and lowered Lama, so it is at the top of the map

other then that, it looks like it matches up well

that Mammut will help, but...



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Post #: 44
RE: The Map - 10/20/2009 1:47:51 AM   
kaybayray

 

Posts: 424
Joined: 6/1/2007
Status: offline 		WOW..... I guess I'm the Kid drooling over in the corner. It's all I can do to figure out how to put Aircraft up that have a chance of making it to the target and put bombs on the target with a chance of doing some damage other than scuffing up the parking lot.

I have thought a lot of what I might add to this thread but you guys are way outa my league. I will just stay in the corner drooling and trying to figure out how to shut the Luftwaffe down and pound the Third Riech into the stone age.... regardless of where the rivers are.

I have been playing this game for about 2 years and I never even noticed until this post that there were rivers in it.

Later,
KayBay

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If you dont mind... It dont matter

(in reply to Hard Sarge)
Post #: 45
RE: The Map - 10/20/2009 2:08:04 AM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		LOL

thanks

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Post #: 46
RE: The Map - 10/20/2009 7:23:48 AM   
JudgeDredd


Posts: 8573
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kaybayray
...
I have been playing this game for about 2 years and I never even noticed until this post that there were rivers in it.
...

As shallow as this post may sound...aaaaaahahahahahahahahahahaha

Now that is funny!

(in reply to kaybayray)
Post #: 47
RE: The Map - 10/20/2009 12:52:33 PM   
TechSgt

 

Posts: 306
Joined: 9/19/2008
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kaybayray

WOW.....

...

I have been playing this game for about 2 years and I never even noticed until this post that there were rivers in it.

Later,
KayBay

Kaybay!!!

I think that puts this thread to bed, eh?

(in reply to kaybayray)
Post #: 48
RE: The Map - 10/20/2009 3:30:57 PM   
pejsek

 

Posts: 29
Joined: 10/6/2009
Status: offline 		In the BTR map, the location of Brux (AREA and FUEL) is wrong, the city is not south of Prague, but approximately half way between Prague and Chemnitz. The correct German name is Brüx. It was in Sudetenland and so a part of German Reich during the war, now it is in the Czech Republic and the name is Most. There is still a large chemical factory at the site of former synthetic fuel plant, located NW of the city.

(in reply to TechSgt)
Post #: 49
RE: The Map - 10/23/2009 2:57:30 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		have moved Brux and the fuel plant, so it is more inbetween Chemnitz and Prague

nothing I can do with the name

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Post #: 50
RE: The Map - 10/23/2009 7:33:10 PM   
pompack


Posts: 2582
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: University Park, Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kaybayray

I have been playing this game for about 2 years and I never even noticed until this post that there were rivers in it.

Later,
KayBay



ROFLMAO

I think JC put it best the first time this was brought up (eight years ago? whatever)

(no quotes because I don't have the original, but this is close)
The map art is nothing but pretty wallpaper! Moving Schipol to the proper relationship with Amsterdam is important; moving the coastline isn't

BTW, glad to see that Schipol looks like it could be the Amsterdam airport.




(in reply to kaybayray)
Post #: 51
RE: The Map - 10/23/2009 8:46:47 PM   
mikkey


Posts: 3142
Joined: 2/10/2008
From: Slovakia
Status: offline 		Hard Sarge, I should one wish regarding on the map.
It's in the center of Europe in Slovakia:
1013-Bratislava Werft PORT
1014-Bratislava AREA
2129-Pressburg AREA (but I don't know what is this because Pressburg is the german name of Bratislava during WWII)
659-I.G.Apollo OILR (Apollo refinery is on the lower side of Bratislava/Pressburg city area)
1164-Nova Dubnica ARM, but the name of city is only Dubnica (Nova Dubnica was established after WWII in 1951)
154-Piešťany PRI AF
156-Triduby PRI AF, but the name of airfield is Tri Duby
Thank you!




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Post #: 52
RE: The Map - 10/24/2009 2:11:28 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		removed Bratislava

renamed Triduby

moved the rest

not sure what to name/rename Nova Dubnica ?




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Post #: 53
RE: The Map - 10/24/2009 7:47:08 PM   
mikkey


Posts: 3142
Joined: 2/10/2008
From: Slovakia
Status: offline 		Excellent, thank you for this adjustment Hard Sarge!
And please rename the name "Nova Dubnica" on "Dubnica". Full name of city is Dubnica nad Váhom but often are used abbreviated name Dubnica. Dubnica contains Skoda Armament factory (during WWII was attacked July 7. 1944, 20 a/c from 454.BG with 48.75 tons of bombs).

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Post #: 54
RE: The Map - 10/27/2009 10:21:50 PM   
NAVMAN

 

Posts: 436
Joined: 12/31/2002
Status: offline 		Did anyone consider the usage, for the USAAF at least, of maps which somewhat approximate those actually used? From docs I have seen, the maps used during the general briefings were fairly nondescript, with certain areas marked as flak
concentrations, etc. Overall, however, they were pretty generic in detail. The
detailed maps were given to navigators and bombardiers in the specialized brieings.
If one takes this into acct, the map(s) would seem "serviceable" for the game.
Perhaps a second layer of mission planning, with a more detailed map, might
be done in a mod by those who have such expertise.
Just a thought for future consideration.

Thx.

(in reply to JudgeDredd)
Post #: 55
RE: The Map - 11/5/2009 7:42:12 AM   
pejsek

 

Posts: 29
Joined: 10/6/2009
Status: offline 		Blechhammer (AREA and 4 FUEL refienries) is on correct location in Campaign 43, but in Campaign 44, Oil Offensive I and II (sorry haven´t checked all scenarios) the location is incorrect.

(in reply to NAVMAN)
Post #: 56
RE: The Map - 11/5/2009 1:02:44 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		I may not of changed it over, will look

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Post #: 57
RE: The Map - 11/5/2009 1:25:10 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		thanks, my bad, Swift seen that and I made the changes in 43, then was waiting on feedback, and never made the change for 44, corrected

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Post #: 58
RE: The Map - 11/5/2009 5:05:37 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		okay the Hammers in 44




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Post #: 59
RE: The Map - 11/5/2009 5:07:06 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		I think I talked about the rework in the BallBearing area (in other words, with out looking up the name, I can't spell it)






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Post #: 60
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