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Detailed battle help - 11/1/2009 8:48:12 PM   
GrouchyXe

 

Posts: 50
Joined: 6/23/2009
Status: offline 		Hi,

Just playing my first battle and a couple of things looks strange to me:

1) I have excelent defensive position and at time a single infanterie at time abandon his great position and go ahead on open field where they are killed by artillery and massive troops.

How can I make impossible for any single b rigade to abandon his position, i would like to be able to fire my own artillery on those guys.

2) When inf is in line it looks impossible to move back rigth ?
How can i disengage without suffering risk of moving to column ?

3) It looks like I have no controls of some brigade for more than 1 turn. Is it an idea or some untis are frozen ? And why ?


Thanks for help
Post #: 1
RE: Detailed battle help - 11/1/2009 10:20:16 PM   
GShock


Posts: 1245
Joined: 12/9/2007
From: San Francisco, CA - USA
Status: offline 		1) I strongly advise you to read the manual thoroughlly if you plan to play the detailed battles. The answe to 1 is the Out of Command situation. You need to put those troops back in order. When a bde has a flashing star on it, it moves on its own, that is out of command. Your leader can bring them back to order, read the manual to know how it works, when it happens and what key to press. 

2) You can't move back from line position when you are in contact with enemy bdes. What you could do, if bde is fresh is try to force march them then bring them to column and try to move away. This is a very risky proposition. There's technically only one way to make them fall back and it's the rout button but then you don't know whether they'll be rallied or not. Try advancing in groups. It's easier to detach bdes before actual close contact happens and you can concentrate so that when the enemy routs a bde you can flank another one because that's how you release bdes to move, generally, by routing their direct opponents.

3) Likely same as 1). Unless the bde is compelled to fight back to a very aggressive enemy unit. In this case your bde fires automatically then "passes" the turn. Nothing you can do but you need to help that bde because they get tired and use ammo while you have no control over them.


4) READ THE MANUAL. FoF is VERY complex.


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Post #: 2
RE: Detailed battle help - 11/1/2009 10:37:29 PM   
Randomizer


Posts: 1473
Joined: 6/28/2008
Status: offline 		Hi and welcome to the wonderfully frustrating world of FoF Detailed Combat.
quote:

1) I have excelent defensive position and at time a single infanterie at time abandon his great position and go ahead on open field where they are killed by artillery and massive troops.

It looks like when you initially set up the game, you checked the Out of Command box under Combat Options where now the command ratings of all your container units as well as brigade disposition and morale will have a direct impact on your detailed battles.

When a unit is ordered to move it checks and there is a chance that it might misinterpret orders and stop in a hex adjacent to the hex where it was ordered to go. Poor morale, disposition and command ratings of your leaders and container unit increase the odds of this happening. This makes fancy maneuvering with inexperianced formations and units very difficult, as it was in the event and although the random walks may seem ahistorical, the overall effect is not.

What you are seeing is another nasty command related feature, units falling out of command and control. Whenever a brigade takes a certain loss, it checks morale and command and there is a chance that it will fall out of command. If it has movement points and a place to move to, it may well march there without orders making you want to throw your binoculars on the ground in a rage. Fatigue and being pinned by enemy fire seems to increase the probablility of this happening. The history of Civil War battles is punctuated with units not moving when ordered, moving when ordered to stay put and moving to the wrong place so once again the overall effect is reasonable even if the mechanism lacks elegance.

To avoid these neat issues make sure that your next game setup has the Out of Command box unchecked.

quote:

How can I make impossible for any single b rigade to abandon his position, i would like to be able to fire my own artillery on those guys.

Disengagement in daylight and under fire is nearly impossible without routing and this is probably as it should be. Rout the adjacent enemy brigades or wait for night and disengage under cover of darkness. Tactical retreats without the situation developing into a rout were amongst the most difficult combat operations in 19th Century warfare. If you are using the last patch, your guns cannot be moved within two hexes of an enemy brigade so if the ground permits, putting guns on the high ground should allow them to provide direct support to your infantry positions. Sometimes you have no options and the only thing to do is leave the brigade in place until it routs away.

quote:

3) It looks like I have no controls of some brigade for more than 1 turn. Is it an idea or some untis are frozen ? And why ?

You appear to have checked the Unit Initiative box under the Unit Options menu when you set up the game. This means units mail fail an initiative check preventing you from moving them that turn. Poor troops and leaders with poor ratings only make this worse.

Have fun and good luck.

Cheers

(in reply to GrouchyXe)
Post #: 3
RE: Detailed battle help - 11/1/2009 10:46:40 PM   
GrouchyXe

 

Posts: 50
Joined: 6/23/2009
Status: offline 		Thanks guys,

I have print the rules (waiting for my game to be on mail) but it is more than 300 pages, it takes time...

of corse I wnat to go to detailed battle, quick or instant makes no sense all the interest of FOF is to have both great strategic and tactic level.

For me FOG rocks, it seems it is the best wargame I have ever seen really

Learning by doing is the way I want to play and elarn from mistakes at start it is frutrating.

Yes I started with maximum realism.

Which general skills are important to rally ? looking at manual it is only leadership. So leadership is the only skill to look for tactical game ?




< Message edited by GrouchyXe -- 11/1/2009 10:48:01 PM >

(in reply to Randomizer)
Post #: 4
RE: Detailed battle help - 11/6/2009 11:56:12 PM   
terje439


Posts: 6813
Joined: 3/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GrouchyXe

So leadership is the only skill to look for tactical game ?



Not at all
Cavalery skill will boost your CAVs dmg and speed unless memory serves me incorrect.
Tactics will boost your troops dmg.

_____________________________

"Hun skal torpederes!" - Birger Eriksen

("She is to be torpedoed!")

(in reply to GrouchyXe)
Post #: 5
RE: Detailed battle help - 11/7/2009 10:24:19 AM   
GrouchyXe

 

Posts: 50
Joined: 6/23/2009
Status: offline 		Well was a question sopme times ago since I have made some improvement of my knowledge with game.

However, I really struggle on each detailled battle playing with North.

For me lack of artillery early in the game is a real pain and I have to improve my analyse of the ground.

Then when do you use skirmisher ?

(in reply to terje439)
Post #: 6
RE: Detailed battle help - 11/7/2009 1:04:51 PM   
terje439


Posts: 6813
Joined: 3/28/2004
Status: offline 		I only use skirmishers if I position a unit in a position that I know will be attacked by several brigades, but that is essential to keep my line.

As the Union I try to use the ground to my advantage for sure, the best is to find a place where I can anchor my flanks on some impassable terrain like lakes or mountains and then I try to place my best units at the front, and units with good long range rifles at hilltops.
As I started to play the game I hardly used the musket, but as I've grown wiser (and here I need to offer my apologies to HS for not agreeing with him in the start), I find that giving the best Union troops muskets is actually a good move as these are the guys that will be at the front of my line.

You should as the Union be able to field larger armies than the Confederacy, and if I engage AoNV I'll try to make my line with a depth of two brigades.

I also try to use the maxim: "move offensively, fight defensively" to the max.

Terje

_____________________________

"Hun skal torpederes!" - Birger Eriksen

("She is to be torpedoed!")

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Post #: 7
RE: Detailed battle help - 11/7/2009 2:18:59 PM   
GrouchyXe

 

Posts: 50
Joined: 6/23/2009
Status: offline
quote:

"move offensively, fight defensively"


Well but my goal is to play ag human soon and that is not the way to win a battle with two humans.

By the way how can it be possible to play detailled battles on online ? is aw that you can export PBEM files perhaps in order to go live for a detailled battle ?

(in reply to terje439)
Post #: 8
RE: Detailed battle help - 11/7/2009 6:49:12 PM   
Randomizer


Posts: 1473
Joined: 6/28/2008
Status: offline 		There is no way (that I am aware of) to have Detailed Combats against another player.

Terje439's tactical assessment is spot on as the AI tends to be very aggressive and if you find good ground in most cases the enemy will break themselves trying to attack.  But not always so one of the tactical uses for cavalry brigades is to roam the map scouting for the enemy deployments even when there are victory hexes at stake.  The AI will occasionally do odd things but can present a decent challange particularly if you impose some reasonable house rules on yourself that reflect mid-19th Century warfare.

There are a huge number of options in FoF, for instance Terje gives his best troops muskets because of the murderous close-in firepower modifiers.  I tend to give my best troops the finest rifles money can buy because I like ranging fire to start the attrition process as far out as possible.  There are few absolute right answers in FoF and what was decisive in one battle might be less effective next time because the circumstances have changed.  That's part of the fun.

Best Regards

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Post #: 9
RE: Detailed battle help - 11/8/2009 1:39:53 AM   
Gil R.


Posts: 10821
Joined: 4/1/2005
Status: offline 		Randomizer is both right and wrong at the same time. FOF was programmed so that players could fight out detailed battles online, and lots of people have done so. HOWEVER, FOF was programmed using a Microsoft software library -- programmers will know what this means, the rest of us need to use our imaginations -- that had a problem Microsoft failed to fix. As a result, a small percentage of players have been unable to play networked games. If you find this to be the case when you try please post about it in the Support sub-forum, since there are one or two tricks you can try before giving up. Overall, it's a frustrating situation for us, and one we can't fix, since this software library is so central to the code that it would require the equivalent of major, life-threatening surgery, which would create new bugs and new problems. Here's to hoping that it works for you! (And remember, there is always hot-seat play.)

_____________________________

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(in reply to Randomizer)
Post #: 10
RE: Detailed battle help - 11/8/2009 11:58:57 AM   
GrouchyXe

 

Posts: 50
Joined: 6/23/2009
Status: offline 		Gilr could you clarify the point in a thread I have dedicated to that question

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2287949&mpage=1&key=&#2287949

Thanks

(in reply to Gil R.)
Post #: 11
RE: Detailed battle help - 11/9/2009 9:10:28 PM   
GrouchyXe

 

Posts: 50
Joined: 6/23/2009
Status: offline 		Ok now another question related to the ground and the formations.

What is best formation within a building ? i mean for a city or house hex which formation do you use ?
Same question for forest ?
Same question for hex with some stone ?

Thanks a lot

(in reply to GrouchyXe)
Post #: 12
RE: Detailed battle help - 11/9/2009 9:28:43 PM   
GrouchyXe

 

Posts: 50
Joined: 6/23/2009
Status: offline 		Additional question Terje wrote in his AAR:

quote:

The cannons are all 24pound howitzers, and as such can fire over other units.


Are all howitzer able to throw over others units ?

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Post #: 13
RE: Detailed battle help - 11/9/2009 9:35:37 PM   
GrouchyXe

 

Posts: 50
Joined: 6/23/2009
Status: offline 		Answer is yes Howitzer rocks :)

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Post #: 14
RE: Detailed battle help - 11/9/2009 9:55:24 PM   
terje439


Posts: 6813
Joined: 3/28/2004
Status: offline 		They do untill you get the indirect fire upgrade, then all artillery does
OFC having your arty in the front line will allow them to do maximum damage, but I find that due to their low lovement rate, they will often surrender if they take too much damage, so I find it better to keep them a little to the rear.

_____________________________

"Hun skal torpederes!" - Birger Eriksen

("She is to be torpedoed!")

(in reply to GrouchyXe)
Post #: 15
RE: Detailed battle help - 11/11/2009 12:58:42 AM   
GrouchyXe

 

Posts: 50
Joined: 6/23/2009
Status: offline 		And what about my initial question:


quote:

What is best formation within a building ? i mean for a city or house hex which formation do you use ?
Same question for forest ?
Same question for hex with some stone ?


And an additional question could you describe when you fortify your troops on the battlefield ?

< Message edited by GrouchyXe -- 11/11/2009 1:23:17 AM >

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Post #: 16
RE: Detailed battle help - 11/15/2009 1:19:56 PM   
GrouchyXe

 

Posts: 50
Joined: 6/23/2009
Status: offline 		Are my question so hard ? 

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Post #: 17
RE: Detailed battle help - 11/16/2009 2:34:56 AM   
Randomizer


Posts: 1473
Joined: 6/28/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GrouchyXe

Are my question so hard ? 

Is this your formation questions?

quote:

What is best formation within a building ? i mean for a city or house hex which formation do you use ?

"What is Best for..." questions are by nature subjective. If your only choice is column because you otherwise lack the movement to otherwise occupy an built-up or forest hex you have a decision to make. Losses recieved in column formation can be horrific but it often depends on the attacker and there may be valid reasons to risk those losses to occupy some specific hex. Try different combinations, what works for my style of combat might not work for yours.

Stones just prevent enemy charging into the hex across the stoned hexside.

Line gives firepower at the cost of mobilty and is easily flanked. Column provides mobility at the cost of firepower. Skirmishers can reduce losses but at the cost of reduced firepower and mobility. Formation changes cannot be conducted in some terrain types and cost movement points which might be better used to achive a positional advantage. Attempting to change formation in proximity of enemy brigades or in yellow and red threat hexes can sometimes lead to disorder and rout so what formation to use is a trade off that depends entirely on your command style and your current tactical situation. Like real generals you will need to develop what works for you, probably at the cost of several defeats since few things concentrate the mind more than trying to recover from a rout.

Don't always be reactive in detailed combat, have an overall battle plan from the begining and stick to it until it is obvious that it won't work. Then switch to your backup plan, if you are just shuffling brigades wildly around you're probably doing something wrong.

When to fortify? The trade off here is that digging in can lead to fatigue which can wreck any army decisively. So what is more important to your plan, protection and immobility provided by entrenchments or the prospect of reduced mobility and firepower caused by fatigue? Like we used to say in the Army... DOTS Depends On The Situation. That is Your situation at that point in time, your call. Night time sometimes provides a good opportunity to attempt digging in since there is a better chance of recovery from fatigue.

Your questions are not hard but the answers are and ultimately, only you can provide them.

< Message edited by Randomizer -- 11/16/2009 2:46:11 AM >

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Post #: 18
RE: Detailed battle help - 11/16/2009 5:40:09 PM   
GShock


Posts: 1245
Joined: 12/9/2007
From: San Francisco, CA - USA
Status: offline 		eeheheh I can tell he's loving the game, all these questions, we all had them at our point in time. 

I agree with Randomizer... essentially only playing will teach you how to play correctly on the laws of trial and error. It gives us something more to think about ... the real guys in the real civil war had to learn it the same way... while we can restart it's just a game and have a new chance using what we learned they basically didn't.


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Post #: 19
RE: Detailed battle help - 11/16/2009 6:27:20 PM   
terje439


Posts: 6813
Joined: 3/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GrouchyXe

And what about my initial question:


1)
quote:

What is best formation within a building ? i mean for a city or house hex which formation do you use ?
Same question for forest ?
Same question for hex with some stone ?


2) And an additional question could you describe when you fortify your troops on the battlefield ?


As said before it is up to what you feel works for you.
I will try to use line all along. I will usually not occupy forests, houses etc but rather allow the enemy to walk into those hexes in coloumn and face my line in the opposing hex.
And about fortify, I will usually use a few units with the digger upgrade to run around digging defences in those hexes that are likely to be attacked from one, two or even three sides, then move my combat unit into that hex after the digging is complete.

_____________________________

"Hun skal torpederes!" - Birger Eriksen

("She is to be torpedoed!")

(in reply to GrouchyXe)
Post #: 20
RE: Detailed battle help - 11/16/2009 11:41:35 PM   
Gil R.


Posts: 10821
Joined: 4/1/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GrouchyXe

Gilr could you clarify the point in a thread I have dedicated to that question

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2287949&mpage=1&key=�

Thanks




Sorry, I've been off the forum for several days now because of limited internet access while abroad. Is there anything that still needs answering?

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Post #: 21
RE: Detailed battle help - 11/18/2009 1:30:07 AM   
GrouchyXe

 

Posts: 50
Joined: 6/23/2009
Status: offline 		Yes, can I save and load an ip/ip game ?

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Post #: 22
RE: Detailed battle help - 11/22/2009 5:17:03 PM   
Gil R.


Posts: 10821
Joined: 4/1/2005
Status: offline 		Yes. I *think* it works as you would expect, but it has been a while since I tested the game playing TCP/IP.

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Post #: 23
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