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RE: Nuclear Subs - 1/6/2010 5:39:23 PM   
Astarix

 

Posts: 45
Joined: 5/20/2008
From: Hampton, Minnesota
Status: offline 		Granted that this has been against 3 AI games and a hotseat game with my son, but my personal experience with sub ops has been the following.

As the allies, I train my Air assets until the average pilot ASW experience is in the 50's.  Especially the restricted command bombers on the US west coast and then all of the float plane groups that start arriving.  And I assign commanders with high Nav and aggression ratings to these air groups.  For my ASW TF's I don't bother using the YP's.  They just have ASW ratings of 1 and are floating coffins for their crews.  Instead, I convert them to ACM's and stick em in my major ports to maintain the minefields.  Minefields are a wonderful ASW platform.  For my other ASW assets, as the SC's and other dedicated ASW ships arrive I change their commanders, to commanders with the best available Nav and Aggression ratings I can and then stick them in TF's with the highest aggression and leadership rated available TF Leader possible. 

Keep in mind that for air groups that are smaller than size 10 they can either do ASW or Search effectively or both along a very narrow arc.  I prefer to dedicate my smaller groups to search only.  Along the U.S. West Coast, I have a Kingfisher group at every coastal base.  Either I parked an AV/D/P at the port or I moved one of the inland base forces to the coastal base.  I have approximately 16 Air units along the US/Canadian coast with overlapping ASW arcs completely blanketing the coast. 

For my ASW groups, I set them on patrol zones between 1-3 bases with transit paths that are no more than 6 hexes in length between Patrol points.  I set them for 1 day delays at each patrol point.  As of January 1943 I have approximately 10-15 of these HK groups consisting of AM/SC class ships on overlapping patrol patterns.  I don't just park them at a single port, but every port has at least 1 group in it nearly every day, especially San Francisco and Los Angeles.

So far in my game with my son, I've lost maybe half a dozen AM and SC's and a handful of merchants in return I've sunk about 10 I-boats.  I get at least 1 sub prosecution from my ASWTF's or my Airborne ASW every turn.  Most of the time I don't actually hit the subs, I see a lot of "Sub spotted", "Sub evaded contact" messages, but when I do prosecute contacts I am damaging the subs as often as not.  My son has complained that he subs spend more time getting repaired than they do shooting at my ships.  A result I am more than happy with.

For Convoy escorts, I generally try to stick with the longer range YMS/AM/SC ships.  Again, I replace crappy leaders with the best available ones, especially those with higher aggression ratings.  Generally I will put at least 6-10 of the small escorts into every convoy and I don't leave unescorted merchant ships sitting in TF's.  I've found one of the real threats with the AI is that it is incredibly aggressive with the midget subs and I had the Lexington take a fish 2x now in one of my AI games from midget subs.

As far as allied submarine warfare.  I let the computer handle the long range fleet boats.  I just stick em in single ship TF's put em on max react range and let em go.  Whenever I see one was attacked by ASW or Air assets, I go check on it and move it if necessary, or if its been damaged, I send it back to port if its sys damage is 10 or higher.  The Japanese AI has been very aggressive using ASW TF's but not so good at escorting its own convoys.  I find that when my subs have been spotted by Aircraft is when they are most vulnerable.  I keep control of the S, dutch and British boats myself and use them in known choke points using patrol zones.  I found them to be incredibly effective early in defense of Java as I literally saturated the coasts around Palembang, Batavia and Soerbaja with these subs.

Even early in the war, both against the AI and my son, I was averaging at least 1 sub attack a day, the more aggressive commanders would surface and use their deck guns as often as not, especially early with the dud torps on the Fleet Boats.  Now that its 1943, my subs are suddenly the terror of the South China Sea, but even in 1942 I was killing a merchant ship about every 3 days with the Fleet Boats.  Now its obscene how effective my subs are.  With the lower dud rate, I'm killing at least 1.5 Japanese ships a day, even in escorted convoys, especially against the AI.  My son has had a bit better success against my subs by using many of the same tactics that I do, particularly with Airborne ASW.  He indicated that once he started training his patrol aircraft to get their ASW ratings into the 50's his ship losses have mitigated and effective attacks have gone up significantly.

Anyway that's been my experience.  Not every game has been exactly the same, the AI particularly, seems to have a large variability.





< Message edited by Astarix -- 1/6/2010 6:18:39 PM >

(in reply to castor troy)
Post #: 91
RE: Submarines - 1/6/2010 6:01:27 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline
quote:

The attacking of docked ships is particularly ridiculous, especially in big ports (Karachi, for heaven's sake!) patrolled by ASW TFs and ASW air.  This is not an isolated occurrence as I've lost scores of docked ships at my biggest ports during the game.

While I don't necessarily share your same subjective assessment of the overall efficacy of submarines for other games besides your own, I will say that this (above) should not be happening. IIRC, such an action was not possible in ports >size 3 in WiTP due to (assumed) harbor ASW netting, harbor defenses and the like. I'm surprised to see it happening in your game and, yes, I would be upset to have as many ships nailed in my larger ports as you have.

So, such occurences should be very rare (think Ark Royal at Scapa Flow) and very very dangerous for submariners crazy / balsy enough to try such a stunt. Maybe ASW effectiveness in a large port increases by a full log (base 10) to mimic the suicidal nature of this sort of attack? Also increase the likelihood that a submarine will run afoul of submarine netting stretched across the harbor, founder and sink with all hands?


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Post #: 92
RE: Submarines - 1/6/2010 6:25:55 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		One of the challenges facing the designer would be distinguishing between a ship transiting or moving through the hex and one docked.  But I agree, Chickenboy, it should be the rarest of events to torpedo docked ships.  I think I've had it happen at least 50 times in my game.  Perhaps I'm just unlucky, Miller is very lucky, or our game is a complete anomaly.  But if I were a Japanese player I'd send all my subs to big ports and let them hang around and sink everything in sight.

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 93
RE: Submarines - 1/6/2010 6:42:17 PM   
oldman45


Posts: 2320
Joined: 5/1/2005
From: Jacksonville Fl
Status: offline 		Astarix that was a good write up. I don't have as an extensive asw barrier along the west coast as you do but we have a similar idea. The important thing is it has worked. I rarely have subs able to operate off the west coast for very long between the air assets and the aggressive patrols. With proper planning the I-boats have become more of a nuisance than a threat.

One of the differences I have over your tactic is barrier patrols backed up by hunter killer groups. They are made up of the best SC's or KV's that I have and stationed at or near the more important bases. Once a sub is detected I send them out to prosecute the contact, I still don't have that many kills but it has allowed me to move large convoys thru the area with 1 or 2 escorts instead of using large numbers of escorts.

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Post #: 94
RE: Submarines - 1/6/2010 6:50:20 PM   
JWE

 

Posts: 6580
Joined: 7/19/2005
Status: offline 		That tactic may not work as well as you think. The game engine does special things with those little ants that few people care about; YPs, AMCs, yadda, yadda. They are there for a reason, and the engine uses them to populate "local" ASW TFs to preclude precisely that behavior. If you know how to use your ants, and you have sufficient ants in port, those ports will be substantially immune.

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 95
RE: Submarines - 1/6/2010 6:59:59 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		No, they aren't substantially immune  I've had ants and bulldogs and crows and hawks patroling as many harbors as possible during the game and they've been essentially invisible and ineffective.  Japanese subs have been sinking ships at anchor in my biggest harbors despite (1) mines (2) ASW TFs and (3) ASW air patrols.

As noted previously, I may be unlucky, my opponent lucky, or our game a complete anomaly, but I don't think so. I think subs are on steroids in the game and need to be toned done markedly. Perhaps 1097 has done that, but it's too early to tell.

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 1/6/2010 7:01:39 PM >

(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 96
RE: Submarines - 1/6/2010 7:12:53 PM   
Drambuie

 

Posts: 80
Joined: 8/18/2004
Status: offline 		Hi all,

Reading this thread with some interest and would like to add an opinion which probably doesn't help but ...
my perception of the issues with submarine warfare as a whole in games like this are that the problem is treating them as a 'tactical' weapon system/platform when they were in reality a strategic threat.

What I mean is I imagine most large scale board type wargames would and do treat such things as submarine warfare as a strategic 'box' - you sit a number of counters in it, the enemy responds to that with a few counters and you roll a die. One turn player x may lose a point of transports or whatever, another and player y loses a point of subs. Submarine warfare is usually much more abstracted to overall imapact on industry or whatever and I think works very well as such.

Perhaps the issue here is that by taking such a weapon platform and trying to rationalise it down to the level we are dealing with - individual subs - slight errors in parameters of say weapon accuracy or ASW effectiveness become exaggerated. The subs by the nature of their use easily appear 'overpowered' as for a single platform they can be devastating and apparently almost untouchable at times, unlike perhaps other ships and aircraft

How to resolve this? People know more than me about the historical endurance levels of Japanese subs but one solution perhaps is to tweak sub damage levels to increase at a much higher rate than surface vessels to represent crew strain/stresses on machinery etc? This would mean they cannot camp out off major ports as easily/consistently ... certainly subs in the game seem to build up system damage very slowly considering they sit at sea for days and weeks. They were also a pretty weak and vulnerable weapon platform - the 'fear' factor of air ASW over the Bay of Biscay had a pretty significant impact on U Boat transit times etc yet the effect of ASW seems rather vague in this.

Sorry went on a bit there ...


(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 97
RE: Nuclear Subs - 1/6/2010 7:20:25 PM   
pad152

 

Posts: 2871
Joined: 4/23/2000
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson


quote:

ORIGINAL: sfbaytf

IJN subs are brutal. In my PBEM games they very effective and a real nuisance. I've lost BB's, CVE's and had CV's hit and lost a lot of other ships CA, CL, DD, and loads of transports to them. Early war allied ASW is very ineffective-save for a few British DD's. Over time allied ASW improves, but still IJN subs do seem to be a bit over powered, IMO.

and yes I dedicated a lot of resources to ASW work-both air assets and DD's and SC's when they became available.


IJN submarines in my game are worthless - except as targets - on the other hand Allied submarines are sinking mutiple ships per turn !


Is the game really that random or is there that much of a difference between PBEM and playing against the AI?

In my game (Japan vs Allied AI) IJN subs sunk 13 ships in just one day! After the 1097 patch, subs are again sinking escorts (DD's, PC's).

I've seen up to 19 sub attacks in a single day (both allied and Japanese).

I have yet to have a sub damaged or sunk a sub with ASW.



(in reply to jwilkerson)
Post #: 98
RE: Nuclear Subs - 1/6/2010 7:26:13 PM   
John Lansford

 

Posts: 2662
Joined: 4/29/2002
Status: offline 		I've not had any in-port sub attacks in my CG other than midget attacks at Pearl, Madras, Sydney and Auckland, and most of those were unsuccessful.  I've been running the latest hotfix for the last few days and I've not seen much difference in sub attack tendencies or ASW prosecution.  I've set subs on patrol and given them react ranges and they don't do anything at all; I'm thinking some sub commanders need to sit behind a desk...

(in reply to pad152)
Post #: 99
RE: Submarines - 1/6/2010 7:45:38 PM   
JWE

 

Posts: 6580
Joined: 7/19/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
No, they aren't substantially immune  I've had ants and bulldogs and crows and hawks patroling as many harbors as possible during the game and they've been essentially invisible and ineffective.  Japanese subs have been sinking ships at anchor in my biggest harbors despite (1) mines (2) ASW TFs and (3) ASW air patrols.

As noted previously, I may be unlucky, my opponent lucky, or our game a complete anomaly, but I don't think so. I think subs are on steroids in the game and need to be toned done markedly. Perhaps 1097 has done that, but it's too early to tell.

You are probably the victim of good old Mr. Random. We have pushed gobs of sub TFs into SF and LA and SD, each with an appropriate number of ants in port, and the engine has always, that's spelled a-l-w-a-y-s, kept them at bay and even sunk a couple. Maybe 20 some odd tests, maybe 30 some odd runs per test. Yes, that's about 600 entries. Things are working fine from where we see.

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 100
RE: Nuclear Subs - 1/6/2010 7:47:31 PM   
RevRick


Posts: 2617
Joined: 9/16/2000
From: Thomasville, GA
Status: offline 		I seem to be having a rather strenuous struggle against the IJN boats as well. I don't really follow the idea of having IJN sub doctrine permanently removed, it does not make any sense at all to me - unless the rumors of rampant JFB infiltration into the design team prove to be somewhat more than groundless! I think what I will do, since I play only the AI (time constraints), is to go back into the editor, convert all of the Auks into ASW patrol boats, add 15 new CVEs and DE's to appear in 1942, accelerate the Tacoma class, add ten squadrons of ASW air assets to the West Coast, and time travel to the future and haul Rickover into the 1930s to develop the Nautilus and the homing torpedo in 1943. That way, I might be able to get a convoy off the west coast past the 200 mile mark with out being ravaged by these bloody things. EGAD!

_____________________________

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(in reply to John Lansford)
Post #: 101
RE: Submarines - 1/6/2010 7:49:38 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		I guess my entire game is just pure random chance or the far end of a bell-shaped curve?  If so, that's fine, but it sure is painful.  I've lost at least 50 ships docked at major ports - LA, SD, SF, Pago Pago, Tahiti, Noumea, Auckland, Sydney, Melbourne, Perth, Colombo, Trincomalee, Madras, Bombay, and Karachi.  I have subs sitting in big ports that are mined with ASW air and sea patrols doing nothing and the subs sinking every ship that enters the hex.

I need to total up just the number of AOs and TKs I've lost in the game - a remarkably high number, and many of them while docked.

(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 102
RE: Submarines - 1/6/2010 7:57:18 PM   
RevRick


Posts: 2617
Joined: 9/16/2000
From: Thomasville, GA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I guess my entire game is just pure random chance or the far end of a bell-shaped curve?  If so, that's fine, but it sure is painful.  I've lost at least 50 ships docked at major ports - LA, SD, SF, Pago Pago, Tahiti, Noumea, Auckland, Sydney, Melbourne, Perth, Colombo, Trincomalee, Madras, Bombay, and Karachi.  I have subs sitting in big ports that are mined with ASW air and sea patrols doing nothing and the subs sinking every ship that enters the hex.

I need to total up just the number of AOs and TKs I've lost in the game - a remarkably high number, and many of them while docked.


Almost enough to make me start sippin' Turkey again!

_____________________________

"Action springs not from thought, but from a readiness for responsibility.” ― Dietrich Bonhoeffer

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 103
RE: Submarines - 1/6/2010 8:00:44 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline 		Rev,

Why would you need an excuse for that?

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Post #: 104
RE: Submarines - 1/6/2010 8:14:36 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		I went back and counted my tanker and oiler losses through January 23, 1943:

AO:  10
TK:  33

A fair number of these ships have been lost at sea and were in unsescorted convoys or by themselves; but a fair number have been docked at major ports (including two tankers at Karachi on the 23rd).

You guys know how precious tankers and oilers are, so you know how hard this hits. 

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 105
RE: Submarines - 1/6/2010 8:47:59 PM   
88l71


Posts: 218
Joined: 9/17/2007
Status: offline 		Has anyone tried a N. Atlantic-style "Big Convoy" approach to the problem? What I mean is a very large number of AK/TK's escorted by a large (8 or more?) force of DD's, perhaps using the waypoint system to drop off ship(s) at smaller bases along the way to dock and unload then "picking up" those ships on the return trip? Granted this wouldn't be practical for smaller bases but for runs to major bases in S. Pacific or Australia it might work?

Just thought, don't know if it is a good/bad idea...

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 106
RE: Submarines - 1/6/2010 8:59:08 PM   
Nomad


Posts: 5905
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: West Yellowstone, Montana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RevRick


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I guess my entire game is just pure random chance or the far end of a bell-shaped curve?  If so, that's fine, but it sure is painful.  I've lost at least 50 ships docked at major ports - LA, SD, SF, Pago Pago, Tahiti, Noumea, Auckland, Sydney, Melbourne, Perth, Colombo, Trincomalee, Madras, Bombay, and Karachi.  I have subs sitting in big ports that are mined with ASW air and sea patrols doing nothing and the subs sinking every ship that enters the hex.

I need to total up just the number of AOs and TKs I've lost in the game - a remarkably high number, and many of them while docked.


Almost enough to make me start sippin' Turkey again!


Rare Breed can be so comforting.

_____________________________


(in reply to RevRick)
Post #: 107
RE: Submarines - 1/6/2010 9:00:16 PM   
RevRick


Posts: 2617
Joined: 9/16/2000
From: Thomasville, GA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Rev,

Why would you need an excuse for that?


I'd better have a real good one if the Bishop were to find out!

_____________________________

"Action springs not from thought, but from a readiness for responsibility.” ― Dietrich Bonhoeffer

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 108
RE: Submarines - 1/6/2010 9:01:21 PM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RevRick


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Rev,

Why would you need an excuse for that?


I'd better have a real good one if the Bishop were to find out!


You should have joined the Whiskeypalian church...

_____________________________

fair winds,
Brad

(in reply to RevRick)
Post #: 109
RE: Submarines - 1/6/2010 9:01:47 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		Yes, I've tried something like that with mixed results.  I'd say the presence of escorts reduces the number of successful sub attacks somewhat.

In the "actual war" the Allies didn't employ North Atlantic-type convoys.  Ships went in small groups or solo.  Of course, the Japanese sub doctrine aided the Allies in utilizing that tactic since Japanese subs weren't really hunting transports as much. (Admiral King, I think, insisted on the "solo" convoy tactic and received some criticism in that regard).

So, the game departs from the real war by foregoing Japanese sub doctrine, which results in higher Allied transport losses, which means that the Allies have to employ a different tactic than was used in the real war.  Which means in desigining a game that we all enjoy - and I think the vast majority of us prefer foregoing Japanese sub doctrine - the game unavoidably shifts away from the real war.

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 1/6/2010 9:03:40 PM >

(in reply to 88l71)
Post #: 110
RE: Submarines - 1/6/2010 9:02:37 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline 		I have not have major problems with IJN subs in my games vs. IJ AI. While I do not sink many, threat has been quite "containable". 

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(in reply to RevRick)
Post #: 111
RE: Nuclear Subs - 1/6/2010 9:11:29 PM   
CarnageINC


Posts: 2208
Joined: 2/28/2005
From: Rapid City SD
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Skyros

Did you have air assets on asw to detect the subs and prevent surprise attacks?


I totally feel your pain and frustration Canoerebel. My game with Treznor is very similar to yours. To answer Skyros question, yes, NY59Gaints gave me a good idea on laying my defense.

I've trained my air crews to 40's so far for ASW, i have dedicated ASW fleets 2-3 ships in size, 2-3 per major port, and I'm escorting with 1-2 DD's for most convoys. I have maybe sunk ONE sub...ONE in 1.5 months of war......ONE! I have lost umteen hundred AK's and TK's not to mention at least 8 warships......FOR ONE SUB! Yes I've changed poor ship commanders. And yes taking all these counter measures has diminished attacks a bit, but come on.....ONE SUB?!?

I think that if hits against subs hurt more it would equal out some. Trez and I have talked about this. He...and me have parked our subs outside major ports and have had them attacked by ASW forces for days..weeks..without major damage!?!?!?!

I have no problem with aggressive Jap subs...none...my problem as things stand is the damage taken against subs.

I'm with Canoerebel.....I'm also calling NUC SUBS on this issue.

_____________________________


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Post #: 112
RE: Submarines - 1/6/2010 9:14:15 PM   
CarnageINC


Posts: 2208
Joined: 2/28/2005
From: Rapid City SD
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Yes, I've tried something like that with mixed results.  I'd say the presence of escorts reduces the number of successful sub attacks somewhat.

In the "actual war" the Allies didn't employ North Atlantic-type convoys.  Ships went in small groups or solo.  Of course, the Japanese sub doctrine aided the Allies in utilizing that tactic since Japanese subs weren't really hunting transports as much. (Admiral King, I think, insisted on the "solo" convoy tactic and received some criticism in that regard).

So, the game departs from the real war by foregoing Japanese sub doctrine, which results in higher Allied transport losses, which means that the Allies have to employ a different tactic than was used in the real war.  Which means in desigining a game that we all enjoy - and I think the vast majority of us prefer foregoing Japanese sub doctrine - the game unavoidably shifts away from the real war.


Yes quite aways away from any form of real war. I wonder if the Japs and Jerry's made a sub commander exchange with each other to crew their nuc subs?!?

_____________________________


(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 113
RE: Submarines - 1/6/2010 9:19:50 PM   
LargeSlowTarget


Posts: 4443
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: Hessen, Germany - now living in France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

That tactic may not work as well as you think. The game engine does special things with those little ants that few people care about; YPs, AMCs, yadda, yadda. They are there for a reason, and the engine uses them to populate "local" ASW TFs to preclude precisely that behavior. If you know how to use your ants, and you have sufficient ants in port, those ports will be substantially immune.


Does that mean I can leave the Yippies and AMc in port (instead of forming dozens of ASW and local minesweeping TFs) and they will do their job nonetheless? D'oh, so much time lost for micromanaging!

_____________________________

AE Mod "Bottlenecks" UPDATED 01/2022

(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 114
RE: Nuclear Subs - 1/6/2010 9:20:53 PM   
Treznor


Posts: 85
Joined: 12/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CarnageINC


quote:

ORIGINAL: Skyros

Did you have air assets on asw to detect the subs and prevent surprise attacks?


I totally feel your pain and frustration Canoerebel. My game with Treznor is very similar to yours. To answer Skyros question, yes, NY59Gaints gave me a good idea on laying my defense.

I've trained my air crews to 40's so far for ASW, i have dedicated ASW fleets 2-3 ships in size, 2-3 per major port, and I'm escorting with 1-2 DD's for most convoys. I have maybe sunk ONE sub...ONE in 1.5 months of war......ONE! I have lost umteen hundred AK's and TK's not to mention at least 8 warships......FOR ONE SUB! Yes I've changed poor ship commanders. And yes taking all these counter measures has diminished attacks a bit, but come on.....ONE SUB?!?

I think that if hits against subs hurt more it would equal out some. Trez and I have talked about this. He...and me have parked our subs outside major ports and have had them attacked by ASW forces for days..weeks..without major damage!?!?!?!

I have no problem with aggressive Jap subs...none...my problem as things stand is the damage taken against subs.

I'm with Canoerebel.....I'm also calling NUC SUBS on this issue.


Actually I've lost 3 subs. All to mines, none to ships

_____________________________



"Something 'witty' inserted here"

(in reply to CarnageINC)
Post #: 115
RE: Submarines - 1/6/2010 9:46:12 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
No, they aren't substantially immune  I've had ants and bulldogs and crows and hawks patroling as many harbors as possible during the game and they've been essentially invisible and ineffective.  Japanese subs have been sinking ships at anchor in my biggest harbors despite (1) mines (2) ASW TFs and (3) ASW air patrols.

As noted previously, I may be unlucky, my opponent lucky, or our game a complete anomaly, but I don't think so. I think subs are on steroids in the game and need to be toned done markedly. Perhaps 1097 has done that, but it's too early to tell.

You are probably the victim of good old Mr. Random. We have pushed gobs of sub TFs into SF and LA and SD, each with an appropriate number of ants in port, and the engine has always, that's spelled a-l-w-a-y-s, kept them at bay and even sunk a couple. Maybe 20 some odd tests, maybe 30 some odd runs per test. Yes, that's about 600 entries. Things are working fine from where we see.


John, Would you clarify a bit? Which of the 'little fellers' need to be in TF's and which should be left disbanded in the port? And for TF's do they have to be undocked & remain-on-station?

(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 116
RE: Submarines - 1/6/2010 10:25:27 PM   
JWE

 

Posts: 6580
Joined: 7/19/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs
John, Would you clarify a bit? Which of the 'little fellers' need to be in TF's and which should be left disbanded in the port? And for TF's do they have to be undocked & remain-on-station?

YPs, and AMcs, don't have the list in hand. Maybe Don could get more specific. But ants. And they aren't in TFs, they just sit disbanded in port and the engine grabs tham and makes TFs and confronts subs, and puts them back after the excitement is over. Basically, the teensy weensy guys we are pinging on in Da Babes mod.

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 117
RE: Submarines - 1/6/2010 10:40:38 PM   
John Lansford

 

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Is this something the AI does against the human player or is it something that happens automatically on the human's side as well?  I've not had any subs try and get inside my major ports (probably because my air ASW is so heavy) so I've not seen this tried in my game.

(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 118
RE: Submarines - 1/6/2010 10:46:12 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

This thread had dropped into the nether regions of something like page ten, but it's time to bring it back the forum's attention.

The thrust of this thread is that submarines are too powerful in the game - a problem that cuts both ways; IE, it affects both sides roughly equally over the long haul.  Early in the war it doesn't affect the Japanese as much since a high percentage of Allied torpedoes are duds.

In my PBEM game with Miller, we're now in January 1943, so the dud rate has fallen...and, as expected, the sub war has become even more bloody.

On January 22, 1943, I-34 sank an AKL near Saumlaki, Seal got an xAK off Shortlands, Salmon got an xAK in Kendari, I-8 got two docked tankers at Karachi (yes, two...docked...tankers...in a major port patrolled by ASW), and Gugeon got an AK off Munda.

Six ships went under in a single day...and this is not an isolated occurrence.  Sub-warfare in AE is far, far too effective.

The attacking of docked ships is particularly ridiculous, especially in big ports (Karachi, for heaven's sake!) patrolled by ASW TFs and ASW air.  This is not an isolated occurrence as I've lost scores of docked ships at my biggest ports during the game.

Since Nuclear Subs appears to cut both ways it doesn't necessarily need fixing to address game balance; but it sure detracts from the historical feel of the game.  In the real war, sub warfare was a cat-and-mouse game.  In my AE PBEM game, sub warfare is just a big, bad gorilla blundering from major port to major port tearing apart everything encountered.

Am I the only one who is finding sub warfare so ridiculously bloody?  It's possible, I suppose.


The figures you describe are not ahistoric from the USN side at all. JANAC figures (generally considered pretty conservative versus war patrol claims) show USN subs sinking 1314 vessels, merchant and naval, during the war. Divide by number of days, reduce a lot for 1942 duds, and 1945's lack of targets, and you SHOULD be seeing several sinkings per day on average in 1943-1944.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Army-Navy_Assessment_Committee

http://www.navy.mil/navydata/cno/n87/history/pac-campaign.html

The real issue, I think, is the IJN results. In both our games their totals are far higher than hisotrical. I think that's an artifact of shared code more than any desire to hose the Allied player. There has been a lot of discussion about removal of the "Japanese Sub Doctrine" toggle from WITP, and good arguments can be made on both sides of the issue. Yes, they had somewhat of a doctrine to favor attacks on warships and to husband torpedoes. No, they didn't aggressively operate off the West Coast deep into the war years. But I also think that the Japanese player can continue to make deployment decisions to somewhat reproduce historical operations simply by choosing where he sends his boats. OTOH, if he sends them up to the CONUS coast he's going to take losses, or at least heavy damage, if the Allied player does his job, particularly in the area of upgrades. As you move forward in mid-Pac you'll also relieve him of advance bases and force his fuel budget back at least to Truk. The West Coast is relatively quiet once you do that.

I don't think the code allows for parallel submarine algorithms at this point without major surgery. I would strenuously argue against "dumbing down" Allied sub results, however. As the links above show, the submarine effort was preeminent in defeating Japan. WITP, GG's love-fest for the flyers, never allowed this. The AE devs have come a long way toward righting that wrong, and I think perhaps some of the objections to game results stem from some players' lack of knowledge of the submarine war's outcomes. Read the paper at the second link above. It's official USN history, and chock full of stats. As Nimitz himself said, the subs won the war.

As the Allied player, you can stand the losses you're getting. He can't. Keep plugging away in 1943, both offensively and ASW-wise. You can't win AE with air power alone. Cut off his oil, and sooner or later even his subs will be staying home.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 1/6/2010 11:59:32 PM >

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The Moose

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Post #: 119
RE: Nuclear Subs - 1/6/2010 10:53:11 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

I thought Mk 14 had dud rate of 80% (haven't checked with editor, but that's what it was in WitP) and in Jan 43 it drops to 60%. That'd mean you exploding torpedo hits would effectively double from 1942.



They did for me. MASSIVE improvement in Jan 1943. Remember that spreads are 4-6 usually (bow tubes). Independent trials, but still, four tries at 40% is a decent number of hits. And sometimes, with an aggressive CO, you get a re-attack on the same target.

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