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Roads - 1/12/2010 4:16:42 AM   
Jonny

 

Posts: 38
Joined: 7/22/2004
Status: offline 		Have to say I am a little bummed there are no visible roads.



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RE: Roads - 1/12/2010 8:07:07 AM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
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From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jonny

Have to say I am a little bummed there are no visible roads.


It's because of the scale of the game and HEXes...


Leo "Apollo11"

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(in reply to Jonny)
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RE: Roads - 1/12/2010 12:54:28 PM   
Cavalry Corp

 

Posts: 3107
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From: Sampford Spiney Devon UK
Status: offline 		I advise caution here not every hex would have roads ( paved roads ) just as every hex does not have a railway does it?

Look at say the excellent and very well researched maps of Russia by HPS in the PZC games ...

There would not be paved road running too and from every hex . Between the cities yes , every hex to every hex no...


Cav

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RE: Roads - 1/12/2010 1:26:40 PM   
jaw

 

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Joined: 7/24/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cavalry

I advise caution here not every hex would have roads ( paved roads ) just as every hex does not have a railway does it?

Look at say the excellent and very well researched maps of Russia by HPS in the PZC games ...

There would not be paved road running too and from every hex . Between the cities yes , every hex to every hex no...


Cav


Panzer Campaign games are grand tactical games with 1km hexes and two hour turns; at that scale roads make sense. WitE is a strategic/operational game with 10 mile hexes and week long turns. At that scale any road movement benefit would grossly distort reality. The current movement rules do a very good job of "simulating" road movement by reducing the cost to move through hexes you already control.

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RE: Roads - 1/12/2010 7:03:07 PM   
Capt Cliff


Posts: 1791
Joined: 5/22/2002
From: Northwest, USA
Status: offline 		I could have sworn I posted this in another thread ... but ... I believe it's more important to follow the rail lines than roads. Unless the unit is in road column it wouldn't recieve any benifit. An armored divison in road column takes up a lot of space on that road and blocks it for other units. Since movement points are time increments and it cost less when you behind the lines then they might have factored it in. But as a graphic's fluff to have the roads ... I don't care. It might draw people to follow them when no benifit is recieved.

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RE: Roads - 1/12/2010 10:33:06 PM   
notenome

 

Posts: 608
Joined: 12/28/2009
Status: offline 		I just posted this, I agree with the absence of roads except where the minsk-smolensk-moscow highway is concerned, as that was pretty much the best road in Russia, did not get muddied, and was AGC's lifeblood in terms of supplies. I would vouch for its, and only its, inclusion

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RE: Roads - 1/13/2010 5:12:03 AM   
Jonny

 

Posts: 38
Joined: 7/22/2004
Status: offline 		I get the logic with the RR.  I have a WWII NEWSMAP huge Russian map and it's only RRs.  A map with roads that didn't do anything would still look better.  I do like the graphics fluff.  Imagine looking at Germany and seeing all those roads.  notenome is right on with his opinion.  It could be only that road and perhaps a few more once you head west but nothing crazy. 
Game looks cool though and just wanted to have a small say. 


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RE: Roads - 1/13/2010 6:50:24 AM   
wworld7


Posts: 1727
Joined: 2/25/2003
From: The Nutmeg State
Status: offline 		I am not crazy about fluff.

No roads is fine with me.

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RE: Roads - 1/13/2010 10:24:06 AM   
siRkid


Posts: 6650
Joined: 1/29/2002
From: Orland FL
Status: offline 		It was the first question I asked when I started testing. I don't even think about it now. The game works very well without them.

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RE: Roads - 1/13/2010 3:41:53 PM   
Montbrun


Posts: 1498
Joined: 2/7/2001
From: Raleigh, NC, USA
Status: offline 		Santa brought me the first two volumes of Glantz's new series (a trilogy - the last volume comes out this spring) - "Road to Stalingrad," and "Armageddon in Stalingrad." When planning for Fall Blau, the Germans took particular interest in the rail and road network. From German reports, the only real usable roads, especially running East - West, were the service roads following the rail lines.

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Post #: 10
RE: Roads - 1/13/2010 4:43:54 PM   
vinnie71

 

Posts: 964
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline 		And they were the only ones that didn't degrade quickly from overuse and during the muddy seasons. The bulk of Russian roads at that time, indeed except for the highways, were dirt tracks, in game terms, little better than an open hexes

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Post #: 11
RE: Roads - 1/21/2010 12:58:13 PM   
JJKettunen


Posts: 3530
Joined: 3/12/2002
From: Finland
Status: offline 		Minsk-Moscow highway should be modelled in one way or another.

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RE: Roads - 1/21/2010 1:51:28 PM   
jaw

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Keke

Minsk-Moscow highway should be modelled in one way or another.


As I said previously, roads are "simulated" by the fact that it takes less movement points to move through friendly controlled hexes (regardless of terrain) than "disputed" hexes. The penalty for moving through hexes you don't control reflects the greater caution of combat movement (a combination of road and cross-country movement) necessary when you're moving through enemy terrain and column or road movement when you're moving behind your own lines.

Therefore, road movement is in the game but the roads themselves aren't. Given the scale of the game, I think this is both a simplier and more elegant solution than actual roads cluttering the map.

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RE: Roads - 1/21/2010 2:05:46 PM   
JJKettunen


Posts: 3530
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From: Finland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jaw


quote:

ORIGINAL: Keke

Minsk-Moscow highway should be modelled in one way or another.


As I said previously, roads are "simulated" by the fact that it takes less movement points to move through friendly controlled hexes (regardless of terrain) than "disputed" hexes. The penalty for moving through hexes you don't control reflects the greater caution of combat movement (a combination of road and cross-country movement) necessary when you're moving through enemy terrain and column or road movement when you're moving behind your own lines.

Therefore, road movement is in the game but the roads themselves aren't. Given the scale of the game, I think this is both a simplier and more elegant solution than actual roads cluttering the map.



I'm not that concerned about road movement, but of the fact that the Minsk-Moscow highway was an important supply route. If a single railroad from Minsk to Moscow serves the purpose, in game terms, then there's no problem, I guess.

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RE: Roads - 1/21/2010 6:13:18 PM   
jaw

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Keke


I'm not that concerned about road movement, but of the fact that the Minsk-Moscow highway was an important supply route. If a single railroad from Minsk to Moscow serves the purpose, in game terms, then there's no problem, I guess.


There is a rail line running from Minsk to Moscow and the Axis player will usually send a railroad repair unit up that line for precisely the supply concerns you mention.

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RE: Roads - 1/23/2010 7:01:04 AM   
critter


Posts: 139
Joined: 3/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jaw


quote:

ORIGINAL: Keke


I'm not that concerned about road movement, but of the fact that the Minsk-Moscow highway was an important supply route. If a single railroad from Minsk to Moscow serves the purpose, in game terms, then there's no problem, I guess.


There is a rail line running from Minsk to Moscow and the Axis player will usually send a railroad repair unit up that line for precisely the supply concerns you mention.


Ok you got 5 rail repair units that you can move. Got that...
How do the ones attached to HQ's that you don't assign to combat units work on rail repair? Do they fill in the side lines? Increase the distance of the lines your working on?
I'm assuming we are talking about combat Engs. Is there a bonus for using them against fortified units? Don't understand why you'd not want to use them to convert rail hexes.

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RE: Roads - 1/23/2010 10:41:31 AM   
elmo3

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: critter

Ok you got 5 rail repair units that you can move. Got that...
How do the ones attached to HQ's that you don't assign to combat units work on rail repair? Do they fill in the side lines? Increase the distance of the lines your working on?
I'm assuming we are talking about combat Engs. Is there a bonus for using them against fortified units? Don't understand why you'd not want to use them to convert rail hexes.


Construction battalions are assigned by the AI to damaged rail hexes and will attempt to repair them. Depending on the level of damage and the weather they may finish the job in one turn or take longer. They won't move into or adjacent to a hex with a player controlled rail repair unit so generally they do repair behind the lines from partisan activity or to fill in the gaps. These construction units are not the same as engineers in that engineers do not do rail repair.


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