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Market Garden - 1/28/2010 11:46:03 AM   
Marshall Thomas


Posts: 75
Joined: 11/18/2007
Status: offline 		I had "A Bridge too Far" on in the backround while I was reading the manual last night. I know that WW2:ToW has paratroopers in game. Is something like Operation Market Garden a realistic option in WW2:ToW? Thanks in advance
Post #: 1
RE: Market Garden - 1/28/2010 2:00:15 PM   
cpdeyoung


Posts: 5368
Joined: 7/17/2007
From: South Carolina, USA
Status: offline 		Yes, within reason, it actually can happen.  In Soviet campaigns in Turkey, which is nightmarish terrain, you can achieve important leapfrogs with para units.  There are no bridges as such in the game, but against a weaker Axis airborn assaults can play a roll.

Chuck

(in reply to Marshall Thomas)
Post #: 2
RE: Market Garden - 1/28/2010 2:48:56 PM   
Texashorns

 

Posts: 46
Joined: 11/23/2009
Status: offline 		I regularly build a Airborne Army group consisting of 3-5 airborne divisions and then use them to capture vacant cities, surround enemy units, and/or finish off encirclement of large bodies of enemy units. For instance in my current game, I paradropped a german airborne division into an undefended Metz on the Western front. Then used them to get behind the french and british lines to cut them out of supply. Italian airborne was used to capture Malta in the Med., a german airborne army of 4 divisions was used to capture Cyprus. The german airborne army was then moved to the eastern front and used in conjunction with Army Group North to isolate Russian units blocking the way to Lenningrad. Bottom line, airborne divisions are very useful.

(in reply to Marshall Thomas)
Post #: 3
RE: Market Garden - 1/28/2010 10:36:44 PM   
vonpaul


Posts: 178
Joined: 8/5/2004
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline 		Sounds a bit too useful:p

(in reply to Texashorns)
Post #: 4
RE: Market Garden - 1/29/2010 4:32:36 AM   
Texashorns

 

Posts: 46
Joined: 11/23/2009
Status: offline 		How can something be TOO useful........?

(in reply to vonpaul)
Post #: 5
RE: Market Garden - 1/29/2010 12:39:27 PM   
AH4Ever


Posts: 628
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: NU JOYZ
Status: offline 		Well, let's see if the porridge can be too hot or too cold, I guess as a matter of opinion something could be considered too useful.

Personally, I feel that airborne is too effective and too easy to create. I think they should cost much more to purchase thereby simulating the aircraft required to deliver them to their target. Not to mention the extra training required and small percentage of qualified personnel available. They were elite troops don't forget.

_____________________________

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The next best thing to being clever is being able to quote someone who is.

You weren't there Thursday... You MISSED it!

(in reply to Texashorns)
Post #: 6
RE: Market Garden - 1/29/2010 1:57:06 PM   
micheljq


Posts: 791
Joined: 3/31/2008
From: Quebec
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AH4Ever

Personally, I feel that airborne is too effective and too easy to create. I think they should cost much more to purchase thereby simulating the aircraft required to deliver them to their target. Not to mention the extra training required and small percentage of qualified personnel available. They were elite troops don't forget.


I agree with you, when purchasing para units it should take a long time before being able to deploy them.

_____________________________

Michel Desjardins,
"Patriotism is a virtue of the vicious" - Oscar Wilde
"History is a set of lies agreed upon" - Napoleon Bonaparte after the battle of Waterloo, june 18th, 1815

(in reply to AH4Ever)
Post #: 7
RE: Market Garden - 1/29/2010 3:26:28 PM   
Texashorns

 

Posts: 46
Joined: 11/23/2009
Status: offline 		How is building and deploying an airborne division any slower than an armored division or corps? The aspect of production and deployment is squeezed in this game for all units except naval, and even then 3 turns to turn out subs is pretty short. One turn for entire Corps or for that matter any of the aircraft?

Instead of delaying deployment, airborne divisions should A) as AH said be more expensive to produce and B) have a cap on how many can be built. I would also like them to have an effectiveness bonus to represent their elite status.

Though they are easy to build and deploy, you do have the delay of 3 turns of inactivity before they can be dropped. This could represent training and cobbeling together air transport. Once dropped if they don't get into supply quickly they are easily eliminated. They are effective if used correctly, but I don't see them as unbalanced vs the rest of the game's units.

As an aside, anyone ever seen the AI conduct an airborne drop? The Russians build tons of airborne units, then they just feed them into the meat grinder that is the Eastern front.

(in reply to micheljq)
Post #: 8
RE: Market Garden - 1/29/2010 10:24:30 PM   
Maximeba

 

Posts: 174
Joined: 8/9/2009
From: Buffalo, NY, USA
Status: offline 		How can something be TOO useful........?


In the game Dave and I are playing the paratroopers got out of hand. The Germans took Hugh losses when approaching a city, because of a zero combat unit dropping behind them and then being attacked. Whole Armour corps where wiped out on 3-1 attacks because of no retreat route. The paratroopers caused such high pp losses that the Axis will never gain the initiative in Russia again.
We decided to come up with a house rule that all nations could buy one paratroop unit on the first turn of a month.
I haven’t decided, but I think I should give Dave some of those lost pp’s back again. This way he could buy back some of the units lost. I did the moves, but afterwards it felt dirty.
I had 19 paratroop drops in 1 turn. If this wasn't dirty what is?

_____________________________

Wes
Allies Forever

(in reply to Texashorns)
Post #: 9
RE: Market Garden - 1/30/2010 12:11:23 AM   
Chocolino


Posts: 2095
Joined: 2/14/2009
Status: offline
quote:

In the game Dave and I are playing the paratroopers got out of hand. The Germans took Hugh losses when approaching a city, because of a zero combat unit dropping behind them and then being attacked. Whole Armour corps where wiped out on 3-1 attacks because of no retreat route.


Cutting off retreat with paratroopers and then killing of strong units more reliably via the retreat rule is somewhat annoying. I agree. But that is more the fault of the current retreat rules, and not so much the fault of the paratroopers. They are meant to leap behind units after all.

I recommend instead to mod the retreat rules so that retreats can only happen when a unit is below a certain low strength. Then the tank corps would have survived a 3-1 or more and the paratrooper would look somewhat vulnerable the next turn. (We use 20% retreat strength in our games, but the exact number is a question of taste of course).

change "consts.csv" to
291 #basic chance of land unit retreat;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
292 20;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;


(in reply to Maximeba)
Post #: 10
RE: Market Garden - 1/30/2010 3:20:14 AM   
Maximeba

 

Posts: 174
Joined: 8/9/2009
From: Buffalo, NY, USA
Status: offline

quote:

change "consts.csv" to
291 #basic chance of land unit retreat;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
292 20;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

Does the 20 mean the unit must take a 20% loss before they retreat? Or does it mean that the unit must lose 80% loss before it will retreat.


_____________________________

Wes
Allies Forever

(in reply to Chocolino)
Post #: 11
RE: Market Garden - 1/30/2010 4:49:03 AM   
Chocolino


Posts: 2095
Joined: 2/14/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Maximeba



quote:

change "consts.csv" to
291 #basic chance of land unit retreat;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
292 20;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

Does the 20 mean the unit must take a 20% loss before they retreat? Or does it mean that the unit must lose 80% loss before it will retreat.



the latter, a unit only retreats if it is at 20% or less strength. So retreats won't happen quickly and a single 3-1 won't cause a unit to expire because of a lack of retreat hexes. The optimum value for this parameter is of course debatable.

(in reply to Maximeba)
Post #: 12
RE: Market Garden - 1/30/2010 10:30:47 AM   
Bleck


Posts: 741
Joined: 3/8/2009
From: Poland
Status: offline 		Just in case someone wants to know details.
First condition to even check if unit will retreat is units base strength. If it is lower than 50% of maximum strength then there is possibility of retreat. Chance of retreat is then calculated like this:

chanceOfRetreat (in %) = ( [basic chance of land unit retreat (in %) from consts.csv] - [units base strength (in % of max strength)] ) * [retreatChanceModifierPerColumn from consts.csv] * [retreatChanceModifierPerTerrain from consts.csv]

Then random number in range 1-100 is picked and if this number < chanceOfRetreat then unit retreats.


< Message edited by Bleck -- 1/30/2010 10:31:34 AM >

_____________________________

Wastelands Interactive member (Programmer)

(in reply to Chocolino)
Post #: 13
RE: Market Garden - 1/30/2010 5:51:35 PM   
Harbinger


Posts: 144
Joined: 12/20/2008
From: Ohio
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AH4Ever

Personally, I feel that airborne is too effective and too easy to create. I think they should cost much more to purchase thereby simulating the aircraft required to deliver them to their target. Not to mention the extra training required and small percentage of qualified personnel available. They were elite troops don't forget.


I somewhat agree. That the Para is "too effective" is somewhat debatable. However, I agree that the Para is too easily created.
Airborne cost = 24pp. Hmm.....Elite unit, needs aircraft to use Special Ability, but only costs 24pp?
Compared with a Strat Bomber or Tac Bomber, approximately the same sized aircraft needed as transport for Para;
SB cost = 360pp(?).
TB cost = 240pp(?).

I think maybe splitting the difference in cost of these two air units and adding the base cost for the Para might arrive at a reasonable price for a single Airborne. IE;
Airborne cost = 324pp.

Plus the Airborne must still wait 3 turns before opening thier 'chutes.

Just a thought.....

_____________________________

Assume nothing.

(in reply to AH4Ever)
Post #: 14
RE: Market Garden - 1/30/2010 6:48:09 PM   
AH4Ever


Posts: 628
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: NU JOYZ
Status: offline 		Interesting approach but wouldn't the # of aircraft needed to support a division of Airborne be less than forming a complete Air Army/Division.

I read in another thread that each strength point/ factor of air equals 100 aircraft, if I remember correctly.

_____________________________

JJMC

The next best thing to being clever is being able to quote someone who is.

You weren't there Thursday... You MISSED it!

(in reply to Harbinger)
Post #: 15
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