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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 2/15/2010 3:19:16 PM   
elmo3

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Neal_MLC

Concerning the pocket, what sort of supply issues/effects (other than annhilation) will the Soviets suffer if they are unable to break out? Do they jus disappear or will their values be steadily reduced? if so at what rate?


Units without a supply path will become isolated in their next Logistics Phase so there is no immediate effect during my part of the turn. After that they will suffer morale effects, low supply effects, and be unable to build forts greater than a value of 2. If they are routed or shattered they will surrender instead. Isolated non-combat units suffer double retreat attrition. So they don't just disappear but they will be hurting.

quote:


This AAR is such a tease...


My plan is working then ...

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Post #: 31
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 2/15/2010 3:25:15 PM   
elmo3

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Neal_MLC

One other question... where does supply originate Berlin/Moscow or the appropriae map edge?


You need a functioning rail line to your respective mad edge.

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Post #: 32
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 2/15/2010 3:43:29 PM   
Zort

 

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Status: offline 		Does Riga (and other baltic ports) become supply sources for the German once captured? Can you start rail conversion from riga even though the rail is not connected to Germany?

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Post #: 33
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 2/15/2010 5:59:39 PM   
elmo3

 

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Status: offline 		Army Group South (AGS) is led by Gern von Rundstedt.  Subordinate units include 17th Army (von Stulpnagel) (brown), 1st Pz Grp (von Kleist plus XXXXVI Pz Corps attached by me) (red), 11th Army (von Schobert) which is off my screen shot to the south, 6th Army (von Richenau), and Luftflotte 4 (Loehr).

AGS is opposed by the Kiev Military District commanded by Kirponos and consisting of 5th Army (Potapov), 6th Army (Muzychenko), 12th Army (Pondelin), and Kiev Air Command (Ptukhin).

We decided to try and create the huge pocket so 1st PzGrp gets some added support on loan from Guderian.  As with the other Army Groups the infantry is charged with blowing the defenders away from the border so the panzers can roll through unhindered into the enemy rear areas.  Let's see how they did.



As you can see from the shaded hexes we just managed to create the very large pocket around Lvov, trapping thousands of Soviet soldiers.  Unfortunately this pocket is not as secure as the one created by AGC.  In fact it looks more like swiss cheese.  We'll see what the AI does about it shortly.  One more thing to do before ending my turn is to set some units to Refit.  Refit is off by default so you need to turn it on for those units that you want to get priority for replacements.  Nothing to really see with that so I'll go ahead and do it, then end the turn and post some more shots after the Soviets react.  My intelligence officers assure me that the Soviets have been crushed by our opening onslaught.  There can't be more than a few armies in reserve so we should have little trouble brushing them aside and getting to Moscow and beyond in the new couple of turns. 




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Post #: 34
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 2/15/2010 6:10:18 PM   
elmo3

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zort

Does Riga (and other baltic ports) become supply sources for the German once captured? Can you start rail conversion from riga even though the rail is not connected to Germany?


You can trace supply through a port. How effective it is depends on the level of the port and distance involved. If you want to manually start repairing rail from a port like Riga you need to move an FBD unit there or rely on an HQ to start converion with it's construction battalions.

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Post #: 35
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 2/15/2010 6:24:05 PM   
elmo3

 

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Status: offline 		OK the first turn is over and here are the ground and air losses for both sides:





The Soviets were not able to break out of either pocket so they will be taking even more significant losses next turn than they did on turn 1.  I'll probably work on turn 2 later today and post more tomorrow.


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Post #: 36
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 2/15/2010 7:13:17 PM   
Capt Cliff


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Status: offline 		How do the above loses reflect what historically happened? About same? More or less?

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Post #: 37
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 2/15/2010 7:22:52 PM   
bosbes

 

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Status: offline 		Wow, nice graphics! Are these actual in game pictures?

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Post #: 38
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 2/15/2010 8:48:37 PM   
elmo3

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt Cliff

How do the above loses reflect what historically happened? About same? More or less?


Sorry, I don't have any loss numbers for the first few days. And I don't believe the Germans made the kind of pocket I did around Lvov. So my numbers may be low right now but we'll see once those pockets are reduced.

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Post #: 39
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 2/15/2010 8:49:00 PM   
elmo3

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hoe ist?

Wow, nice graphics! Are these actual in game pictures?


All screen shots are from the game.

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Post #: 40
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 2/15/2010 8:57:45 PM   
kfmiller41


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Status: offline 		I am assuming that vr's a human player that large pocket down south would be a large gamble. It probably was against the AI but I am sure a human player would try like heck to get some troops out of there. Very nice game shots, looks great so far.

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Post #: 41
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 2/15/2010 9:15:19 PM   
elmo3

 

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Status: offline 		It's possible a good player could have relieved the southern pocket.  I'll pass that on and see if we can help the AI do better in that regard.  Some of you may wonder why I did not make more of an effort to reduce those pockets this turn.  One of our testers uncovered a bug very recently that causes units that are surrounded to immediately become isolated.  That is not supposed to happen until the next Logistics Phase.  So had I attacked the pockets this turn the losses would have been much worse than without the bug. That wouldn't have been fair to the AI.

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Post #: 42
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 2/15/2010 9:27:56 PM   
kfmiller41


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Status: offline 		Fair what a concept in war

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Post #: 43
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 2/15/2010 9:41:20 PM   
critter


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Status: offline 		Ouch...Is that AGC pocket of Russian troops normal? Or did you get good dice? Damn...No wonder they shot poor Pavlov
They look to be a little to big. Will the AI dig in or try to break out?

< Message edited by critter -- 2/15/2010 9:47:39 PM >

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Post #: 44
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 2/15/2010 10:10:04 PM   
elmo3

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: critter

Ouch...Is that AGC pocket of Russian troops normal? Or did you get good dice? Damn...No wonder they shot poor Pavlov
They look to be a little to big. Will the AI dig in or try to break out?


The AGC pocket was not that hard to make. The AGS pocket needs everything to go right. If a few Soviet units hold their positions, requiring multiple attacks to dislodge them, then you won't have enough MP's to close the pocket. And against an experienced Soviet player the AGS pocket I made would most likely be broken.

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Post #: 45
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 2/15/2010 10:50:11 PM   
nicdain

 

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Status: offline 		Sorry if this has been already asked: how much is a turn long in terms of real time?


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Post #: 46
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 2/15/2010 11:29:05 PM   
elmo3

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: nicdain

Sorry if this has been already asked: how much is a turn long in terms of real time?



That varies quite a bit. Those players who want to micromanage air recon, air attacks, support units, and leaders could take several hours for a large campaign game turn. Those willing to let the AI handle much of that can probably do the same turn in an hour. It also depends on the situation of course. If the front is fairly static it will take a lot less time than if all hell is breaking loose from Leningrad to Sevastopol.

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Post #: 47
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 2/16/2010 5:14:20 AM   
critter


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quote:

ORIGINAL: elmo3


quote:

ORIGINAL: critter

Ouch...Is that AGC pocket of Russian troops normal? Or did you get good dice? Damn...No wonder they shot poor Pavlov
They look to be a little to big. Will the AI dig in or try to break out?


The AGC pocket was not that hard to make. The AGS pocket needs everything to go right. If a few Soviet units hold their positions, requiring multiple attacks to dislodge them, then you won't have enough MP's to close the pocket. And against an experienced Soviet player the AGS pocket I made would most likely be broken.


Ok.. but you've already stated the AI did not try and break out. Have you passed this on?
You've pocketed most of the Russian army on your first turn. Think how good you'll do it when you've played 20 games.
Tha AI should either break out or dig in. Holding on to the rail lines and making the Germans clear them is almost as good as breaking out only to be pocketed again.
Do the Russians automatically lose supply and effectivness? Or do the Germans have to force it through attacks? Seems if they just dig in..They should last longer.
If Kiev falls to fast. The AI needs to be tweaked.
Also Russian supply ought to be cut off by active German zoc's. Not just German owed hexes. If the panzers move east. Pockets of Russians should get out.

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Post #: 48
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 2/16/2010 7:24:32 AM   
nicdain

 

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quote:

That varies quite a bit. Those players who want to micromanage air recon, air attacks, support units, and leaders could take several hours for a large campaign game turn. Those willing to let the AI handle much of that can probably do the same turn in an hour. It also depends on the situation of course. If the front is fairly static it will take a lot less time than if all hell is breaking loose from Leningrad to Sevastopol.


I beg your pardon, but I am afraid I didn't express correctly my question. I meant how many days (or maybe weeks?) of real historical time a single game turn represents.
Thank you

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Post #: 49
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 2/16/2010 8:14:55 AM   
Apollo11


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Status: offline 		Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: nicdain

I beg your pardon, but I am afraid I didn't express correctly my question. I meant how many days (or maybe weeks?) of real historical time a single game turn represents.
Thank you


1 turn = 7 days (i.e. 1 week).


leo "Apollo11"

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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 2/16/2010 9:50:52 AM   
Helpless


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Status: offline 		with one exception, when starts in June 22 1941, first turn is 4 days long.

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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 2/16/2010 12:06:04 PM   
elmo3

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: critter

Ok.. but you've already stated the AI did not try and break out. Have you passed this on?
You've pocketed most of the Russian army on your first turn. Think how good you'll do it when you've played 20 games.
Tha AI should either break out or dig in. Holding on to the rail lines and making the Germans clear them is almost as good as breaking out only to be pocketed again.
Do the Russians automatically lose supply and effectivness? Or do the Germans have to force it through attacks? Seems if they just dig in..They should last longer.
If Kiev falls to fast. The AI needs to be tweaked.
Also Russian supply ought to be cut off by active German zoc's. Not just German owed hexes. If the panzers move east. Pockets of Russians should get out.



I didn't have time to start turn 2 last night as planned. So what I'll do today is delay turn 2 and look at the Soviet side at the end of my part of turn 1 to evaluate the chances for the Soviets to break out of the AGS pocket. I'm almost certain they had no chance to break out of the AGC pocket but I'll check that too. If it looks like they should have been able to break out then I'll report it. As you can see from other posts here, our testers (and I'm sure Joel if not Gary) are reading this AAR so they see the situation.

I've pocketed or destroyed most of the Soviet border forces but it's not true that I've "pocketed most of the Russian Army". There are many Soviet troops in the second and third echelons. I'll put up a couple of screen shots of that too.

Units of either side will start to lose effectiveness if isolated. I've mentioned most of the effects in an earlier post. There is only so much they can do when they are not getting food, fuel, ammo, etc.

And, as yet another reminder, let's not be too hard on the AI at this point. Many improvements will be made to the AI as we move through Alpha, into Beta, and on to launch. In fact I see no reason the AI won't continue to be improved after launch as 2by3 continues to support the game.

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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 2/16/2010 1:00:41 PM   
elmo3

 

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Status: offline 		Here are two shots of the Soviet forces at the start of the '41 campaign.






< Message edited by elmo3 -- 2/16/2010 1:01:13 PM >

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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 2/16/2010 1:13:50 PM   
ComradeP

 

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Status: offline 		Thanks for the AAR.

I have a question about refitting: when does it occur if you turn on the switch you mentioned earlier? In the next turn's logistics phase?

How much can strength can be restored through refitting in a single turn? Is there a percentage that can be set or a specific command to give a unit X amount of replacements and new equipment?

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Post #: 54
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 2/16/2010 1:36:42 PM   
elmo3

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

Thanks for the AAR.

I have a question about refitting: when does it occur if you turn on the switch you mentioned earlier? In the next turn's logistics phase?

How much can strength can be restored through refitting in a single turn? Is there a percentage that can be set or a specific command to give a unit X amount of replacements and new equipment?


You're welcome.

Yes, refit happens during the Logistics Phase so it would be the turn after you turn it on. Some units, like newly created Soviet armies, will start with refit on and receive replacements, fuel, supply, and ammo on the turn they arrive. So earlier I might have said it was off for all units and if so that was not correct.

There are a lot of details not worth going into here about how refit works exactly. Some factors include current TOE strength relative to full strength, manpower and weapons available, armaments points available to build new weapons, and proximity of the unit to a railhead. A unit must pass some checks (dice rolls) as well. So there is no fixed percentage for refit. I believe a depleted unit could get rebuilt to full strength in one turn under the right circumstances but I can't tell you how likely that is to happen.

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Post #: 55
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 2/16/2010 7:11:47 PM   
elmo3

 

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Status: offline 		A follow up on the AI:  One of our testers took my save file and ran it a half dozen times to see what the Soviet AI would do.  Several times it did manage to break out of the AGS pocket with some units which resupplied the rest still inside the pocket.  Up north it cut off my forces around Riga a couple to times.  Nothing happened in the center but that pocket was rock solid with no Soviets anywhere near it outside the pocket.  So keep in mind that there is variability in the AI play, as there should be.  What you see in my AAR is not what you would see every game.

Edit - Turn 2 might be delayed until tomorrow. Snowing here and I just got back from taking the kids sledding, but there is still shoveling to do.

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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 2/16/2010 7:32:43 PM   
dooya

 

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Status: offline 		This looks really nice! 

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Post #: 57
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 2/16/2010 8:52:01 PM   
AZKGungHo


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Status: offline 		Very, very cool!  This game is going to take a lot of work - but looks like it'll be more than worth it.  Really looks incredible!

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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 2/16/2010 10:06:51 PM   
critter


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quote:

ORIGINAL: elmo3

A follow up on the AI:  One of our testers took my save file and ran it a half dozen times to see what the Soviet AI would do.  Several times it did manage to break out of the AGS pocket with some units which resupplied the rest still inside the pocket.  Up north it cut off my forces around Riga a couple to times.  Nothing happened in the center but that pocket was rock solid with no Soviets anywhere near it outside the pocket.  So keep in mind that there is variability in the AI play, as there should be.  What you see in my AAR is not what you would see every game.

Edit - Turn 2 might be delayed until tomorrow. Snowing here and I just got back from taking the kids sledding, but there is still shoveling to do.


Thx for the AAR. Man we can't wait to get our hands on this out here.
My above posts are not ment to be critical. I just believe most of us play the AI. Wish I was the one headed to Moscow.
Keep up the good work...

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Post #: 59
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 2/16/2010 10:37:41 PM   
thackaray


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quote:

ORIGINAL: elmo3

OK the first turn is over and here are the ground and air losses for both sides:





The Soviets were not able to break out of either pocket so they will be taking even more significant losses next turn than they did on turn 1.  I'll probably work on turn 2 later today and post more tomorrow.



Is there a bug in the numbers for men lost for both Axis and Soviets ? You've only done 1 turn so far, correct? If so, shouldn't the total number of men lost be the same as the current turn ? There appears to be a difference in numbers, but I could be reading it wrong.



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