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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/15/2010 9:52:55 PM   
Sabre21


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quote:

ORIGINAL: elmo3

I'll post the results for turn 26 later tonight.  In a word...grim.



Look at the bright side Lee..only 11 more turns of blizzard to go

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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/15/2010 9:55:05 PM   
wiking62


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quote:

ORIGINAL: elmo3

I'll post the results for turn 26 later tonight.  In a word...grim.


Looking forward to these latest screenshots, however grim they might be.

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Post #: 692
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/15/2010 10:02:31 PM   
Joel Billings


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From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		We should keep an eye on how many of Lee's losses are disabled (frostbite), and how many are killed and captured. I'd bet an overwhelming number of the losses on 12/4 were disabled.

As for counter attacking, don't give up on that. I've found in my games that weak spearheads can easily be pushed back by German counter attacks, especially if they include a division that's been in a city or town and hasn't been totally trashed by the weather. The Soviets aren't supermen and it is possible to launch counterattacks where you can gang up on Soviet units.

The Slovak Mobile Division OB from August 41 on has not tanks in it. Jim would have to speak to why this is so. The mobile brigade that starts the war has around 40 tanks in it, but they go away when the unit upgrades to the division.

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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/15/2010 10:05:48 PM   
elmo3

 

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Status: offline 		OOB and losses through turn 26.








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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/15/2010 10:18:51 PM   
stevekten

 

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Status: offline 		wow, soviet tanks down to 3582.

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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/15/2010 11:05:27 PM   
elmo3

 

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Status: offline 		12/11/41 (turn 26)  At the far northern end of the AGN line Kolpino fell despite our troops inflicting over 10,000 losses on the Soviets.  The rest of the line held down to Pskov.  However from there south the the AGC flank we were pushed around pretty badly by the Soviets and we'll need to figure out how to stabilize the line in 16th Army's sector.






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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/15/2010 11:23:13 PM   
elmo3

 

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Status: offline 		12/11/41 (turn 26)  The 9th Army (dark green) got manhandled by the Soviets northeast of Vitebsk and their line has pretty much disintegrated.  The only thing saving us from a complete rout at this point is that next turn is only snow instead of blizzard so we should be able to repair much of the damage.  However we'll have to pull back further at the eastern end of the bulge to free up more units to plug the holes and to cover ourselves for when the blizzards inevitably return.  We have some powerful armor formations that have been quartered in Smolensk and Vyazma that may be able to launch local counterattacks if we can find worthwhile targets.  The southern part of AGC's front fared better with only a few minor retreats by 4th Army (dark blue).






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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/15/2010 11:24:15 PM   
Smirfy

 

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During these foul weather turns if you are forced to retreat due to combat do you lose more equipment especially heavy stuff to simulate the lack of mobility? What effect have operations had on trucks and the transport pool some far and is the weather increasing those effects?

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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/15/2010 11:24:24 PM   
ComradeP

 

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quote:

The Slovak Mobile Division OB from August 41 on has not tanks in it. Jim would have to speak to why this is so. The mobile brigade that starts the war has around 40 tanks in it, but they go away when the unit upgrades to the division.


The Slovak Expeditionary Army Group seems to have had 45.000 men, not the ~61.000 noted in the first turn OOB posted by Elmo, but maybe that includes forces in Slovakia.

After browsing through some OOB pages for a while, it seems Brigade Pilfousek looked like this when it was formed:

HQ

Motorized Reconnaissance Group:
HQ
Cavalry/Armored Car Platoon (the unit name indicates cavalry, but that doesn't mean it actually was a cavalry platoon)
Heavy weapons Platoon
2 x Bicycle Company
Engineer Platoon

2/6. Infantry Regiment (mot):
HQ
Radio Platoon
Anti-Tank Platoon
Mortar Platoon
Infantry Gun Section (75mm guns)
3 x Infantry Company
Machine Gun Company

Tank battalion:
Staff Company
2 x Tank Company (Brad Hunter's breakdown of its tank strength is correct according to the detailed Slovak wiki on the subject).
2 x Anti-Tank Company (9x 37mm guns)
1/11. Artillery Regiment
HQ
Radio Platoon
3 x Battery (I'd guess twelve 100mm vz. 30 guns)
Engineer Company
Radio Company
15. Anti-aircraft Battery
Automobile Repair Shop
315. Truck Column

The brigade had 59 officers, 27 NCO's and 1824 enlisted men.

The Fast Division indeed seems to have had no tanks when it was created, as they were send to Slovakia for refitting in August according to the Slovak wiki (I love cumbersome logistics). On the 29th of October the Fast Division reported a tank strength of 12 tanks. 6 LT-35's and 6 LT-40's. It isn't clear when the division had its full tank force available again. It's possible the tanks came back in September and most were lost/disabled in the weeks leading to late October.

It included 2 infantry regiments (classified as regular infantry, but they must've been motorized), an artillery regiment with 16 100mm vz. 30 guns and 4 105mm vz. 35 guns, an AT platoon with 12 37mm guns, an infantry/mountain gun battery with 4 75mm vz. 15 guns, an engineer battalion, a recon group/possibly battalion, an AA battalion with 12 20mm AA guns and 4 88mm AA guns (possibly all German) and support.

The division had 301 officers, 90 NCO's and 8060 enlisted men. The low number of NCO's probably due to the fact that the Slovaks didn't have a lot of quality NCO's because they were discriminated against in the Czechoslovakian army and didn't have the time to catch up yet, even though they were being trained by the Germans. At the time the unit was part of the 17th Army, advancing beyond the limits of the Slovak Army's effective control.

-

As for the latest turn results: comparing this turn to the last, Italy, Hungary and Romania actually got more men, the Soviets have about 6000 men less, but they lost 559 tanks. The Germans gained guns, but have about 20.500 men less than last turn. I'm surprised at the Luftwaffe's strength, as it seems to be doing fine despite not having enough anti-freeze or facilities.

< Message edited by ComradeP -- 3/15/2010 11:25:39 PM >

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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/15/2010 11:44:57 PM   
elmo3

 

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Status: offline 		12/11/41 ( turn 26)  Troops from 17th Army (brown) with support from 2nd SS Mot Brigade plugged holes from last turn southeast of Kiev but were unable to hold the line again this turn.  Further south 11th Army (purple) had a couple of minor setbacks as did the Rumanians who are again holding up better than expected.  Expect some counterattacks from AGS next turn too.

As mentioned above it will be Snow in zones 2 thru 4 with Mud in zone 1 on turn 27.  Ice levels are such that all rivers and lakes are frozen but the better weather will be a much needed break from the last two weeks.






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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/15/2010 11:52:02 PM   
elmo3

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Smirfy


During these foul weather turns if you are forced to retreat due to combat do you lose more equipment especially heavy stuff to simulate the lack of mobility? What effect have operations had on trucks and the transport pool some far and is the weather increasing those effects?


Elements of Non-Finnish Axis troops suffer more damage during first winter turns as well as more disruption. Not sure if there is any added chance of losing equipment during retreat. There are negative supply effects as well for certain areas of the map during first winter that abstractly reflect truck and transport problems.

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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/15/2010 11:53:33 PM   
elmo3

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

...I'm surprised at the Luftwaffe's strength, as it seems to be doing fine despite not having enough anti-freeze or facilities.


I flew no offensive missions on the blizzard turns. Odds were good they would have been aborted anyway.


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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/16/2010 12:50:25 AM   
Smirfy

 

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quote:

As for the latest turn results: comparing this turn to the last, Italy, Hungary and Romania actually got more men, the Soviets have about 6000 men less, but they lost 559 tanks. The Germans gained guns, but have about 20.500 men less than last turn. I'm surprised at the Luftwaffe's strength, as it seems to be doing fine despite not having enough anti-freeze or facilities.


The Germans have also 1,000 more AFV's than they started the campaign with. The Luftwaffe seem to be down about 500 machines

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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/16/2010 11:28:00 AM   
CaptBeefheart


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Status: offline 		Wow, this is a great AAR. I was wondering if you could show us some reinforcement and replacement screens so we can see how that looks.

Thanks,
CC


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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/16/2010 4:17:25 PM   
elmo3

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Cody

Wow, this is a great AAR. I was wondering if you could show us some reinforcement and replacement screens so we can see how that looks.

Thanks,
CC




Glad you like the AAR. Here is the Logistics screen showing replacements. You don't see exactly what unit gets what, just an overall picture. That Withdrawal line is incomplete so that will get bug reported.



Here is a portion of the Reinforcements and Withdrawals Screen. Don't ask me what the numbers in parenthesis mean, I have no idea.



< Message edited by elmo3 -- 3/16/2010 4:18:43 PM >

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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/16/2010 4:22:02 PM   
freeboy

 

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Status: offline 		in other games if troops have to move and then attack in the same turn they lose some prepardness, modeled and called different things, how does WITE model this or does it? ie does a unit have a differnt combat value if it attacks an adgacent hex prior to any movement?

also, is this plot and then resolve all, or is it move attack move attack?
thanks aginfor takignthe time to answer these ?'s

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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/16/2010 4:57:05 PM   
ComradeP

 

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Status: offline 		Did we miss 3 turns or does the infantry change TOE to 1942 TOE in December 1941?

If I were to guess what the numbers in parenthesis mean: manpower/guns/AFV's.

Any idea why some of the Security divisions upgrade to 1941 TOE at the end of 1941?

< Message edited by ComradeP -- 3/16/2010 4:58:08 PM >

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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/16/2010 5:21:52 PM   
elmo3

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: freeboy

in other games if troops have to move and then attack in the same turn they lose some prepardness, modeled and called different things, how does WITE model this or does it? ie does a unit have a differnt combat value if it attacks an adgacent hex prior to any movement?

also, is this plot and then resolve all, or is it move attack move attack?
thanks aginfor takignthe time to answer these ?'s


There are two kinds of attacks, hasty and determined. The former uses less MP's but is not as effective as the latter. In some cases if you won't have enough MP's to make a determined attack. Combat values don't change if you attack before movement.

There is no plotting of moves.

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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/16/2010 5:22:49 PM   
elmo3

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

Did we miss 3 turns or does the infantry change TOE to 1942 TOE in December 1941?

If I were to guess what the numbers in parenthesis mean: manpower/guns/AFV's.

Any idea why some of the Security divisions upgrade to 1941 TOE at the end of 1941?


Trey or Pavel will have to help you here. I noticed the same thing but don't know how it works.

Edit - Also note that this shot if from the 12/25/41 turn which technically ends at the start of '42 so maybe those TOE upgrades are OK.

< Message edited by elmo3 -- 3/16/2010 5:34:37 PM >

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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/16/2010 5:56:35 PM   
jaw

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

Did we miss 3 turns or does the infantry change TOE to 1942 TOE in December 1941?

If I were to guess what the numbers in parenthesis mean: manpower/guns/AFV's.

Any idea why some of the Security divisions upgrade to 1941 TOE at the end of 1941?


The TOE labels don't always match the year the TOE changes. If a TOE was changing very late in the year, I would label it for the next year. A good example is the '44 Infantry division TOE which actually comes into effect in late 1943.

You are correct; it is men, guns, AFVs.

I saw this upgrade displayed in a previous post of Elmo's and it has to be a bug. There is only one security division TOE let alone multiple ones for the same year.

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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/16/2010 6:06:59 PM   
Joel Billings


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Status: offline 		There are some known bugs in the upgrade reports on the logistics screen.

As for movement and combat, moving adds fatigue to the unit and can damage elements in the unit. So you are never as fresh as when you have not yet moved.

The numbers in parenthesis are men - guns - AFVs

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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/16/2010 6:15:50 PM   
ComradeP

 

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quote:

The TOE labels don't always match the year the TOE changes. If a TOE was changing very late in the year, I would label it for the next year. A good example is the '44 Infantry division TOE which actually comes into effect in late 1943.


Doesn't that cause some problems with equipment that doesn't exist/isn't in production at the time of the TOE change, not to mention with equipment that would become obsolete/disappears from the TOE too early? For example: infantry divisions switching from PaK 36/PaK 38 AT battalions to PaK 38/PaK 40 AT battalions?

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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/16/2010 7:09:46 PM   
freeboy

 

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Status: offline 		follow up ?
So id I understand... yo move and attack.. or attack and move and use mps... then another group then another group? wow... that is interesting.. nothin gstopping you from really rolling ove rthe enemy when you have armor and a large advantage then?

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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/16/2010 7:10:51 PM   
elmo3

 

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Status: offline 		Thanks to Jim and Joel for sorting out those screens.

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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/16/2010 7:11:48 PM   
elmo3

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: freeboy

follow up ?
So id I understand... yo move and attack.. or attack and move and use mps... then another group then another group? wow... that is interesting.. nothin gstopping you from really rolling ove rthe enemy when you have armor and a large advantage then?


You can blow a hole in the line and then pour through if you have the MP's. Very realistic IMHO.

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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/16/2010 7:15:08 PM   
The SNAFU


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quote:

ORIGINAL: elmo3


quote:

ORIGINAL: freeboy

follow up ?
So id I understand... yo move and attack.. or attack and move and use mps... then another group then another group? wow... that is interesting.. nothin gstopping you from really rolling ove rthe enemy when you have armor and a large advantage then?


You can blow a hole in the line and then pour through if you have the MP's. Very realistic IMHO.


And seems fairly standard for this type of game

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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/16/2010 7:19:10 PM   
elmo3

 

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Status: offline 		OOB and losses for 12/18/41 (turn 27)








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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/16/2010 7:32:00 PM   
elmo3

 

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Status: offline 		12/18/41 (turn 27)  Things are looking very bad for AGN right now.  The Soviets cut the rail line northeast of Pskov.  Normally we could still get supply via the rail line to Tallinn but partisans damaged a number of sections of that line.  So all of AGN forces north and east of the rail line breaks are cut off from most of their supply.  And turn 28 is blizzard too!  




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Post #: 718
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/16/2010 7:40:11 PM   
elmo3

 

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Status: offline 		12/18/41 (turn 27)  Only a couple of Soviet attacks northwest of Smolensk by the Soviets against AGC this turn.  The lack of backbone on the part of 9th Army (dark green) is troubling as they can't seem to hold the line in good weather never mind during the blizzard conditions that are returning.  Elsewhere the pocket is unchanged.  Unlikely I'll be making a similar report after turn 28.




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Post #: 719
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/16/2010 7:48:25 PM   
elmo3

 

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Status: offline 		12/18/41 (turn 27)  Only a couple of hexes changed hands for the southern part of AGC and all of AGS.  Forgot to mention that last turn we lost Gomel (at the top of the following screen shot) but we retook it this turn.  At least the 252nd Inf Div and 78th Sturm Div of 4th Army (dark blue) will be able to get some benefit from being indoors for the impending bad weather.  I'm sure they'll fight hard to hold that position!  I would. 




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