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For the allies...Defend Bataan or Manila?

 
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For the allies...Defend Bataan or Manila? - 2/18/2010 5:51:33 AM   
jeffs


Posts: 644
Joined: 2/19/2004
From: Tokyo
Status: offline 		What does everybody think for AE?

I am defending Manila, but that was only based on what I did in WITP (and now too late to move).....

But there was no deep thought in this...



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To quote from Evans/Peattie`s {Kaigun}
"Mistakes in operations and tactics can be corrected, but
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RE: For the allies...Defend Bataan or Manila? - 2/18/2010 6:01:06 AM   
thegreatwent


Posts: 3011
Joined: 8/24/2004
From: Denver, CO
Status: offline 		My advise is to supply and defend Bataan. Manila is not as tough as WitP so take supplies and troops to Bataan.

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RE: For the allies...Defend Bataan or Manila? - 2/18/2010 6:24:28 AM   
jeffs


Posts: 644
Joined: 2/19/2004
From: Tokyo
Status: offline 		Bataan has a better terrain defense?

_____________________________

To quote from Evans/Peattie`s {Kaigun}
"Mistakes in operations and tactics can be corrected, but
political and strategic mistakes live forever". The authors were refering to Japan but the same could be said of the US misadventure in Iraq

(in reply to thegreatwent)
Post #: 3
RE: For the allies...Defend Bataan or Manila? - 2/18/2010 11:14:08 AM   
Esslingen_slith


Posts: 11
Joined: 10/26/2009
From: Esslingen - Germany
Status: offline 		I defend at Clark Field (better Terrain than Manila) and I had the Fall back Field Bataan ..... my nearly broken Troops going back to Bataan to refresh and than wait over there ubtil the rest is comming back to Bataan where is my last stand after Clark Field

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RE: For the allies...Defend Bataan or Manila? - 2/18/2010 12:14:38 PM   
AW1Steve


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From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline 		I still use the old WITP vanilla "iron triangle" tactics. Manila,Clark and Batan. But I always eventually plan on retreating into Bataan.So send your HQ there early and build up supplies.
Does anyone know if Manila still gives the advantage to the defender as "urban terrain"?

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RE: For the allies...Defend Bataan or Manila? - 2/18/2010 12:38:47 PM   
String


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From: Estonia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

I still use the old WITP vanilla "iron triangle" tactics. Manila,Clark and Batan. But I always eventually plan on retreating into Bataan.So send your HQ there early and build up supplies.
Does anyone know if Manila still gives the advantage to the defender as "urban terrain"?


It's "light urban" so it's the same as Bataan.

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RE: For the allies...Defend Bataan or Manila? - 2/18/2010 2:26:42 PM   
Icedawg


Posts: 1610
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: Upstate New York
Status: offline 		Curious follow up question: What is the best way to take Clark with speed as the Japanese player. I'm thinking of landing everything I can at Lingayen and marching straight away to Clark.

I originally thought of landing unopposed to the North (Vigan, Laog) and then marching all the way south along the coast. On second thought, I figured it would take too long and the allies would be able to Sr. Robin it to Bataan.

The Vigan landing would be the safe, but slow method. The Lingayen landing would be quicker but would include a greater risk factor. Is it worth the risk, or not?

Any comments/suggestions?

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RE: For the allies...Defend Bataan or Manila? - 2/19/2010 1:02:44 AM   
Mark Weston

 

Posts: 188
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Status: offline 		You'll find that Japan starts with a substantial force already prepped for Lingayen; more or less a division's worth of units IIRC. I took that to be a sign that I should load them up ASAP and send them directly there. And I'm not sure what factors would make Lingayen riskier than Vigan. I don't think the allied player could mount a multi-divisional counter-attack fast enough to destroy the beachhead, and having the allies try to counter-attack seems like playing into Japanese hands anyway. Far better if we're getting terrain and fortification bonuses for a change!

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RE: For the allies...Defend Bataan or Manila? - 2/19/2010 1:37:11 AM   
Mynok


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Just guessing but I suspect the original plan was to land in the north and set up bases for the short-ranged Nates to provide air cover for the Lingayen landings.


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RE: For the allies...Defend Bataan or Manila? - 2/19/2010 3:43:43 PM   
Icedawg


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From: Upstate New York
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Weston

You'll find that Japan starts with a substantial force already prepped for Lingayen; more or less a division's worth of units IIRC. I took that to be a sign that I should load them up ASAP and send them directly there. And I'm not sure what factors would make Lingayen riskier than Vigan. I don't think the allied player could mount a multi-divisional counter-attack fast enough to destroy the beachhead, and having the allies try to counter-attack seems like playing into Japanese hands anyway. Far better if we're getting terrain and fortification bonuses for a change!


The risks are: 1) You are closer to Clark and therefore more likely to get hit by air attacks while landing at Lingayen and 2) Lingayen has a whole PA Infantry Division dug in.

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RE: For the allies...Defend Bataan or Manila? - 2/19/2010 3:45:01 PM   
Icedawg


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


Just guessing but I suspect the original plan was to land in the north and set up bases for the short-ranged Nates to provide air cover for the Lingayen landings.



That was part of it. Also, those airbases can be used by Anns and Sonias which can be used to soften up the defenders and Lingayen and San Fernando.

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RE: For the allies...Defend Bataan or Manila? - 2/19/2010 4:26:22 PM   
Mark Weston

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

The risks are: 1) You are closer to Clark and therefore more likely to get hit by air attacks while landing at Lingayen and 2) Lingayen has a whole PA Infantry Division dug in.



1. Hmm, well it's one hex distance or three, so hard to see how that would matter.
2. Fair point, certainly a tougher objective compared to the empty hex that is Vigan. Though my experience was that it's easy enough to roll over a single PA Division. One turn of bombing and a single deliberate attack did the job IIRC.

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RE: For the allies...Defend Bataan or Manila? - 2/19/2010 6:17:13 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		Clark has better defensive terrain than either Bataan or Manila. As a bonus, it's important. The Allies should defend THERE.

Splitting forces between Manila and Clark is not smart for the Allies IMO. The Japanese can quickly concentrate most forces at Clark, and split your army. Or, you expose a wing of your Army at Manila to attack on less-favorable defensive terrain. Not to mention that you risk losing supplies when Manila falls (I don't 100% trust the land routines there)

Why defend Manila? What are you denying to the Japanese by doing so? Use of the port? They can't use it anyway if you have Clark/Bataan. All you deny them is use of the light industry; big deal. Defending Manila is unwise. Let the Japanese have it.

Against a decent Japanese player who brings a reasonable amount of force, the best thing to do is probably prep everyone, day one, for Clark, and start digging/moving everyone there.



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RE: For the allies...Defend Bataan or Manila? - 2/19/2010 6:28:08 PM   
findmeifyoucan

 

Posts: 579
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Status: offline 		I land all the way up the coast and do a combo landing and march up the coast to Lingayen as it does not take too long being mostly urban territory there. All depends how much the Allies want to make a stand at Lingayen. But the more he puts in Lingayen the less he will have to defend Clark making it easy pickings for the Japanese. The tough nuts to crack are Bataan and Manila. No amphib assaults there as Bataan is too heavy in mines and CD defence that will blow your ships to bits. Defenately have to walk there. Still again does not take long as it is all urban but expect him to be heavily fortified with lots of supply to last a while.

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RE: For the allies...Defend Bataan or Manila? - 2/20/2010 1:22:25 AM   
topeverest


Posts: 3376
Joined: 10/17/2007
From: Houston, TX - USA
Status: offline 		Bataan is the best last line of defense. I also agree you should not let your forces get split. Certainly you want to defend actively where the enemy gives you opportunity to deliver damage, but a thorough Jap approach will take that option away from you.

In my view, against a thorough Jap opponent, the difference in days lasted in any location is not signficant, but I see the longest results at Bataan.

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RE: For the allies...Defend Bataan or Manila? - 2/20/2010 3:38:04 AM   
Q-Ball


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From: Chicago, Illinois
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quote:

ORIGINAL: topeverest

Bataan is the best last line of defense. I also agree you should not let your forces get split. Certainly you want to defend actively where the enemy gives you opportunity to deliver damage, but a thorough Jap approach will take that option away from you.

In my view, against a thorough Jap opponent, the difference in days lasted in any location is not signficant, but I see the longest results at Bataan.


Why Bataan though? There are no advantages to defending Bataan, only disadvantages.

*Terrain not as good as Clark
*Not as useful as Clark

The Japanese could just leave you to rot at Bataan. If you stand at Clark, the Japanese can't flank you at Bataan anyway, because it is suicide to land againts the guns of Corregidor.

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RE: For the allies...Defend Bataan or Manila? - 2/20/2010 5:05:33 AM   
Menser

 

Posts: 206
Joined: 5/2/2005
From: Peabody, Massachusetts
Status: offline 		isn't Bataan a Malaria hex too?

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RE: For the allies...Defend Bataan or Manila? - 2/20/2010 2:29:17 PM   
topeverest


Posts: 3376
Joined: 10/17/2007
From: Houston, TX - USA
Status: offline 		Why Bataan versus another hex on Luzon -

Clark usually isnt a final line of defense, since it can be approached from so many directions. Bataan is a final line, and it blocks the use of Manila, the most useful port in the surrounding area.

I stress I have not see a huge average difference in result, but defending and stockpiling in Bataan can create a thorn for longer. The longer you do and maintain both a patrol base for planes and subs, you are providing invaluable nuisance and potential windfall. Also massed AA in that area is very effective against air attacks. Japs have to decide if to attrite air forces or go with a costly direct ground assault or leave you to your intel and sub windfalls for many many months. Also the CD makes any naval action suicide. I have seen Bataan last into March against concerted and concentrated attacks. The search and subs also are of considerable value to an allied player at that time in the War. In summary, it has the most to offer for an allied player.

Anyway, that is my view.

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RE: For the allies...Defend Bataan or Manila? - 2/20/2010 3:12:57 PM   
Smeulders

 

Posts: 1879
Joined: 8/9/2009
Status: offline 		But as long as you hold Clark, Bataan can't be taken either, unless he tries to land against the guns at Bataan which would be a slaughter even without many ground forces backing them up. In my game I'm holding Bataan, but I'll likely hold Clark in other games, for the defensive bonus and the possibility of maybe using the airfield for a raid or two. The only disadvantage is that the march to and from Bataan will tie up his forces a bit longer, but Clark can probably be held longer and he still needs to march forces to Bataan to open up Manilla once Clark has fallen. 

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RE: For the allies...Defend Bataan or Manila? - 2/20/2010 4:02:57 PM   
sven6345789

 

Posts: 1050
Joined: 3/8/2004
From: Sandviken, Sweden
Status: offline 		Problem is, Manila is irrelevant for the japanese initial offensive. Davao is a nice port, weakly defended and has the right position to act as a staging base for attacks against the DEI; Clark denies a large airfield to the japanese, but again you have Davao and Cagayan which have smaller but decent airfields. The japanese will try to push you back into Bataan though, just to have a land route between North and South Luzon.

It will generally follow a historical course; large numbers of IJA ground units (Divisions and Brigades) will clear Luzon except for Bataan, and will then be earmarked for the DEI. Bataan can wait until April or even May. Doesn't matter.

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RE: For the allies...Defend Bataan or Manila? - 2/20/2010 5:11:11 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		In WITP I think the right strategy was to let the units on Luzon rot; taking the PI was much more difficult. Now, it's alot easier; it's not a bad idea anymore to get it over with.

Either way though, I would defend at Clark; no reason to move to Bataan.

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RE: For the allies...Defend Bataan or Manila? - 2/24/2010 8:02:16 AM   
jeffs


Posts: 644
Joined: 2/19/2004
From: Tokyo
Status: offline 		The one thing Manila has (unless I have messed up) is that it has 160 light industry units (with tons of resources) so don`t you get 160 supply a turn?

_____________________________

To quote from Evans/Peattie`s {Kaigun}
"Mistakes in operations and tactics can be corrected, but
political and strategic mistakes live forever". The authors were refering to Japan but the same could be said of the US misadventure in Iraq

(in reply to Q-Ball)
Post #: 22
RE: For the allies...Defend Bataan or Manila? - 2/24/2010 9:50:21 AM   
Smeulders

 

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Status: offline 		If I'm not mistaken the production is stopped as soon as enemy units enter the hex, so that wouldn't help. Of course I could be wrong on this one.

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RE: For the allies...Defend Bataan or Manila? - 2/24/2010 11:22:45 AM   
USSAmerica


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Smeulders

If I'm not mistaken the production is stopped as soon as enemy units enter the hex, so that wouldn't help. Of course I could be wrong on this one.


You are correct, unless it has changed from WitP.

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RE: For the allies...Defend Bataan or Manila? - 2/24/2010 3:03:22 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		Yep, production stops when Manila is entered. Another reason why Clark is the better choice for the Allies.

Either way though, they won't hold out as long as in WITP

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RE: For the allies...Defend Bataan or Manila? - 2/24/2010 4:12:29 PM   
topeverest


Posts: 3376
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From: Houston, TX - USA
Status: offline 		Agreed on its tougher for the allies to hold as long, no matter where you make your final stand. I think this discussion proves the merits associated with each of those hexes. if the Jap player is thorough, there will be only minor differences in any of those hexes.

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RE: For the allies...Defend Bataan or Manila? - 2/24/2010 9:38:51 PM   
wpurdom

 

Posts: 476
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From: Decatur, GA, USA
Status: offline 		I wouldn't be surprised if given all those agressive IJ commanders who want to take the 6/42 objectives in 12/41/ or 1/42 (and then work their way back), some folks may try to bluff you out of Manila while basically falling into a containment strategy. (Keep in mind what happened in Wilkerson/Nik v. jrcar/tony when the Japanese invaded with only historical forces and the Allies refused to be contained). And then if they enter Clark from all available sides, they could use the terrain to contain you there with a small force.

So you may want to try to recon the invading force to see if you have a strong invasion to deal with, before you make the final move of abandoning Manila for Clark.

Why you only suffer defeat in detail if you try to hold Manila against a full-throated invasion, against a bluff invasion (or the AI), it would be valuable to hold the port - it at least doubles the effectiveness of the subs.

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Post #: 27
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