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Hmmmm.... - 8/5/2002 11:06:16 AM

Orzel Bialy

Posts: 2664
Joined: 4/4/2002
From: Wisconsin USA
Status: offline

Dave,

Well, where can I start as a reply? Honestly, it comes across in two ways....as something of a slap to the cheek...blended in with words of be-grudging acknowledgement to lessen the sting.
I don't know if that is a valid assessment or not? If it is totally off base, then forgive me. If it isn't then I will just accept it as one of those things.
This is how I choose to reply:

A. On my maps:
First of all, thanks for the acknowledgement that my work is worthy of other talented mappers that are out there in the community. :)
It is true that they are not overly complicated and that is, I think, the real beauty to the majority of them.
You are also correct in your observation that I try to mimmick how actual terrain features "act" in real life. Having drove across large portions of this great country and taking in the scenery, I began to note how things "work"... and it's that input that I try to incorporate that into the maps I create.

B. On the lack of Acknowledgement:
I also can appreciate the amount of time and energy it takes to build the more "historical" maps. While I have not personally seen your work ( I will make a point of doing so though ) I have no doubt that they are anything less than excellent.
I made a post titled "A word of thanks" about a week ago thanking M4Jess for allowing me to make maps for some of his scenarios...and also saying thanks to every who has done something above and beyond the call of duty for this forum.
It also made the point that we should all post words of thanks and encouragement when we view or download other peoples work. For I have long known the effect a word of thanks can have.
I am hoping that that post has had something to do with the feedback that I (and hopefully others) have received as of late.

C. Taking things somewhat Personally:
It's obvious that you're somewhat upset that people have possibly ignored other, already existing, avenues of obtaining maps for SPWAW.
For that i have no concrete answer...for I can not speak for others, nor do I seek to. I can only logically guess that they took advantage of a thread I posted at the very time this topic was becoming more of a hot" issue... which corresponded with the dramatic growth of the Pbem subforum and the increasing number of people visiting the forum.
I hope that other mappers don't take my post as some sort of "only show in town" routine. I have always tried to acknowledge the fact that there are other out there doing the same thing...some with even better works, who have been doing it for far longer than myself.
Additionally, that I may have somehow "stole others thunder" (for lack of a better term only...it's late here) well, that was a mere querk of fate as much as it was un-intentional.

D. In Closing:
I must say that I did find parts of your post to be something of an vanity-fed, over-reaction to the innocent over-sight of several newer forum members. I don't mean that to be as hostile as it appears...and I apologize if that seems as a somewhat crude statement. I realize that emotions sometimes get the better of us all...it's just a trait of being human. However, it's always wise to take a step back at times...as will now. ;)
Over all I don't wish to have ill tidings for any single member of this forum. I also hope this reply or my "five minutes in the spotlight" doesn't incite that type of feeling for myself from you or any other forum members.
I prefer that we all be one big happy community...and share the wealth.

_____________________________

(in reply to Orzel Bialy)

Post #: 61

- 8/5/2002 1:54:24 PM

David boutwell

Posts: 353
Joined: 5/28/2000
From: Haymarket, Virginia, USA
Status: offline

G_X,

No apology necessary! You were just the person that happened to ask for something that I had already worked long hours on. The fact that you didn't know that they existed is the unfortunate thing, and the thing that bothered me. The Arnhem map is probably a year old. It has been at Fabio's website about that long, by itself, not as a series, and maybe a handful of people, mostly people I directly communicate with, have ever said, "hey, nice work." Considering the number of people who have likely been through the sites where my work is posted, that is not very encouraging.

My post was not directed at either you or Orzel, but rather, what I guess that I perceive is the weird politics of our community. I love this game and all that it stands for, and spend a tremendous amount of time working on things that are related to it. I've been involved in this community almost since the beginning, and have contributed to it for that long. I contributed a scenario called "Reducing the le Carillon Salient" three years ago, when the game was brand new. I've advertised the fact that this map or that map was available many times. Yet, when someone such as yourself asks for a city map, and maybe eludes "sp?" to the fact that there are none out there, for whatever reason, and no one says, "You know, Boutwell has a few", It makes me wonder what I'm doing here. It seems that the "praise" in this community is heaped into very unbalanced piles. I think Orzel is relatively new around here, so I'm not referring to him at all.

First, I had to endure (which is a personal issue, no one else's) all of you guys scrambling for Orzel's very well done maps, when, like I said, I've made and posted maps for over a year, now, and probably a handful of the people in our community seem to even know about them. Second, I had just been to Redleg's site, where my maps have been given a home, and not one of his guest comments even mentioned the fact that they had downloaded my maps, which disappointed me. So, when I read your (G_X) post, I had to vent.

Like I said, if my maps, in your opinion, are no good, then I have no ground to stand on. If you like them, then, I guess that the only thing I have to be sorry for is that I chose Orzel's thread to vent.

Regards,

David Boutwell

"Out of Ammunition. God save the King."

[QUOTE]Originally posted by G_X
[B]See, I miss posts...

I appologize, I never meant to say that your maps weren't good enough.

In fact, I had actually never had the thought of getting maps from a site besides the forum. I'll get them tommorow (My ISP is acting up now...) and if they're half as good as you say I will be ECSTATIC.

I can't believe I was that dumb not to think to get maps off the 'net, well Orzel, less work for you, I'll now have two perfect city maps for my use.

Thanks David, and please forgive my horrible ignorance. [/B][/QUOTE]

(in reply to Orzel Bialy)

Post #: 62

Re: Hmmmm.... - 8/5/2002 1:57:53 PM

David boutwell

Posts: 353
Joined: 5/28/2000
From: Haymarket, Virginia, USA
Status: offline

Orzel,

My acknowledgent of your work is not given begrudgingly. I honestly do think that your work is good. I saw your post several days ago, and noticed that people like Marauder Melvin liked your work. Now, Marauder has been around here for as long as I can remember, and I know that he�s seen many a submitted map or scenario. I also know that he constructs maps, and he�s also seen most of the stuff that I�ve done. So, when he complemented your work, I was genuinely curious to see what you were doing.

Now, to preface, and this is only my opinion, which means nothing, I�ve seen people in here give a lot of credit to stuff that frankly "ain�t that great". At the same time, I�ve submitted stuff that, yes, I did think was pretty damned good (You can call it vain or whatever you want to, but, being somewhat of a perfectionist with my maps, I wouldn�t have submitted it unless I knew that it was good.), yet I heard nothing. Now, does that mean people shouldn�t encourage others to improve by rewarding good, honest effort? As a father of two, and a teacher, I know better than that. But, I also know that if I�m going to say "nice job" to the kid that�s trying hard to get better, I know that I�d better also reward the kid next to them who might be "there" already, or else their eventually going to say "why the heck do I keep working so hard?" Not being familiar with your work. I was curious to see which side of the coin your work fell under.

So, I downloaded your maps and opened them, and was pleasantly surprised at what I saw! I�ve already mentioned what I like about your maps (and by the way, as an Earth Science teacher, I teach cartography and topography for about for about 15% of my salary, so I�m not just assuming some false knowledge about the way nature creates topography and man adapts his world to that topography ). I actually did like your work, and I actually started to respond to your post yesterday and tell you so, but I was already on a downward spiral, and backed out of the response, which I regret now.

As for A, I concur!

As for B, I concur!

As for C, I don�t know whether or not they have ignored the other avenues. I do know that if they have accessed the others, I�ve only received one bit of encouragement, and that was bundled with a correction, so I don�t know what the true intention was (Doesn�t that sound familiar?) See B! I was hoping to see positive response to my more recently completed work, mostly for the purpose of gaining encouragement and motivation to continue working on the maps that I have under construction (the Oosterbeek Perimeter and the British Market-Garden landing zones). When you check out the maps I posted at Redleg�s site, you�ll understand how important that is! Those maps took not hours to complete, but weeks. Most guys in this community won�t attempt city maps because of their level of complexity.

As for D, you are truly a diplomat! It is not that often that am labeled as vain! J I�m a poorly paid school teacher who likes gardening, camping and other outdoor activities that pit me against mother nature. In fact, I was helping plant Holly bushes in front of the new high school where I�ll be teaching this year, and the other teachers that were helping could not believe that I was actually using my hands to load mulch into buckets! So if I truly am vain, I guess I will have to accept that it is in my impression in my ability to create good maps!J You decide whether that impression is at all grounded in reality. G_X�s post was simply a catalyst. It truly was not directed at him. He just made an innocent statement that was kind of like that straw that broke the camel�s back.

Your Quote: "Over all I don't wish to have ill tidings for any single member of this forum. I also hope this reply or my "five minutes in the spotlight" doesn't incite that type of feeling for myself from you or any other forum members."

I have absolutely no ill tidings toward you. On the contrary. From a personal perspective, I�m happy that people are actually recognizing work that truly is good! If this post serves to attract more people to look at your work, so much the better. As the rapper, Dr. Dre� once said when some congressman was protesting the lyrics of the group Public Enemy, "Thanks for selling our record for us". If my bitching attracts more people to download your work, you win! And my real gripe was not even really directed at you. I just happened to vent in your thread.

I hope your time in the spotlight is longer than five minutes. I�ve been trying for quite a while to get that spotlight shown on my work, for no other reason than to give me encouragement, as I�ve said, to keep at it. And for some reason, it just "ain�t happnin". That�s my whole issue. In addition, I just like the pleasure of having people duke it out on a map that I have created, or have someone design a scenario using my maps. (Heck, I know that Combat Leader will probably make SPWAW obsolete in the future, rendering all of my work pointless, as this community will probably go the way of the forum for the Battlegound series. Yet, I still have the goal of completing a map series that may take a few more years! That�s dedication!).

So if you�ve got the spotlight, hold onto that darn thing! I�m not standing in your way. In fact, how about collaborating on something in the future?

Regards,

David Boutwell

"Out of ammunition. God save the King."

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Orzel Bialy
[B]Dave,

Well, where can I start as a reply? Honestly, it comes across in two ways....as something of a slap to the cheek...blended in with words of be-grudging acknowledgement to lessen the sting.
I don't know if that is a valid assessment or not? If it is totally off base, then forgive me. If it isn't then I will just accept it as one of those things.
This is how I choose to reply:

A. On my maps:
First of all, thanks for the acknowledgement that my work is worthy of other talented mappers that are out there in the community. :)
It is true that they are not overly complicated and that is, I think, the real beauty to the majority of them.
You are also correct in your observation that I try to mimmick how actual terrain features "act" in real life. Having drove across large portions of this great country and taking in the scenery, I began to note how things "work"... and it's that input that I try to incorporate that into the maps I create.

B. On the lack of Acknowledgement:
I also can appreciate the amount of time and energy it takes to build the more "historical" maps. While I have not personally seen your work ( I will make a point of doing so though ) I have no doubt that they are anything less than excellent.
I made a post titled "A word of thanks" about a week ago thanking M4Jess for allowing me to make maps for some of his scenarios...and also saying thanks to every who has done something above and beyond the call of duty for this forum.
It also made the point that we should all post words of thanks and encouragement when we view or download other peoples work. For I have long known the effect a word of thanks can have.
I am hoping that that post has had something to do with the feedback that I (and hopefully others) have received as of late.

C. Taking things somewhat Personally:
It's obvious that you're somewhat upset that people have possibly ignored other, already existing, avenues of obtaining maps for SPWAW.
For that i have no concrete answer...for I can not speak for others, nor do I seek to. I can only logically guess that they took advantage of a thread I posted at the very time this topic was becoming more of a hot" issue... which corresponded with the dramatic growth of the Pbem subforum and the increasing number of people visiting the forum.
I hope that other mappers don't take my post as some sort of "only show in town" routine. I have always tried to acknowledge the fact that there are other out there doing the same thing...some with even better works, who have been doing it for far longer than myself.
Additionally, that I may have somehow "stole others thunder" (for lack of a better term only...it's late here) well, that was a mere querk of fate as much as it was un-intentional.

D. In Closing:
I must say that I did find parts of your post to be something of an vanity-fed, over-reaction to the innocent over-sight of several newer forum members. I don't mean that to be as hostile as it appears...and I apologize if that seems as a somewhat crude statement. I realize that emotions sometimes get the better of us all...it's just a trait of being human. However, it's always wise to take a step back at times...as will now. ;)
Over all I don't wish to have ill tidings for any single member of this forum. I also hope this reply or my "five minutes in the spotlight" doesn't incite that type of feeling for myself from you or any other forum members.
I prefer that we all be one big happy community...and share the wealth. [/B][/QUOTE]

(in reply to Orzel Bialy)

Post #: 63

In response to your post... - 8/5/2002 10:13:53 PM

Orzel Bialy

Posts: 2664
Joined: 4/4/2002
From: Wisconsin USA
Status: offline

David,

I am relieved to see you did not take portions of my reply in an overly negative manner. The "vanity-fed" comment was something I really regretted making when I awoke this morning. I guess I should have taken my own advice closer to heart and waited a hour or two to issue my response.

Again, I understand what you mean about not getting a word of thanks or encouragement to posted works. To be honest, my first two or three posts received very little in the way of responses when I first offered to make maps...only this last post really "took off".
It really does make a difference when work is acknowledged and/or "praised"...so I have come to appreciate the fact that this may also have a negative effect on other co-SPWAWers that do the same type of work...some with even better results. I guess I too might be scratching my head and wondering "what did he do that I haven't?"

I have the utmost respect for those who construct historical based maps...especially of large cities. I tend to stay away from them myself for three main reasons:
1. They are not small time projects and with a wife and kids and the urge to actually "play" the game...still want to have some free time.
2. Like yourself I tend to be a perfectionist, which doesn't help things at times. ;) If I can't make something realistic...then I tend to lose the desire for it.
3. As you also stated...with the impending release of CL...why spend a lot of blood, sweat and tears on something that will probably be discarded in the near future?

I took on the Berlin map simply because there seemed to be a need for it...but I made sure to ask if there were any already in existance, because I knew that there were one or two people taking a shot at it earlier. So this will be my first shot at a "Big City" map...which will be a real challenge indeed...even if I end up utilizing Brent Richards half-finished production.

Anyway, I wish all map and scenario creators the best of luck...and most of all, I implore all members to post replies to our work when it is utilized and enjoyed. This thread is a perfect example of what can happen when things are just taken for granted.

ps...I would be open to some form of co-operation between us map-makers. I often thought that maybe there could be a real use for a "Map Creation Bureau" that could muster talented creators and establish direction so that energies were not wasted on duplicate works...and Forum Members would have a better idea of where they could pick up quality add-ons. How's that sound to you....or any other mappers out there?

_____________________________

(in reply to Orzel Bialy)

Post #: 64

Suggestion - 8/5/2002 10:33:39 PM

TimeTanker

Posts: 148
Joined: 6/15/2002
From: Chico,CA
Status: offline

I have an idea that occured to me while I was reading your posts.

Why not establish a forum specifically for the Map Makers in the group. Where someone like me who consistantly botches up his attempts to put history into those little hexes; can post a request and then any one of you can either choose to take the request or beg off. I am sure that there is a place for something like this. Where someone could go out to places like OKW, Blitz, Fabio's place, Tankheads, etc. and gather up a lot of those maps and post them. or at least a link to a page with links to every SPW@W site that has a growing list of maps being designed by you guys.

I think the response to Orzel's postings has been unique and that it represents the desire amongst those of us that love this game to aquire something unique and well done. I know that if I play an especially well done scenario (which is why I think collaborations like Jess and Orzel are so Cool:D ) I feel as though I really could say,"It don't get any better than this"! I really do feel blessed by the talent and time you guys put into this.

And, David I don't think you should feel bad about your emotions towards this issue. All true artists (and I haven't seen any of your maps yet) believe in themselves and their art. I dunt hurt to toot yer own horn every once in a while, how else would we know about your maps?

I am kind of new to this forum and every day I see new names at the top of the page saying welcome to somebody new. So there are lots of us here that most likely will be grateful to have the availability of your work.

_____________________________

"You can run...but, you will only die tired"

(in reply to Orzel Bialy)

Post #: 65

- 8/6/2002 1:32:35 AM

G_X

Posts: 518
Joined: 7/7/2002
From: Atlanta, Georgia
Status: offline

A forum for the mappers would be great IMHO.

And David...the Arnhem map is awesome, I haven't even gotten to the other one yet, Great Job man, I can't believe no one even bothered to tell you that, these fit what I need perfectly.

Thanks man!

(in reply to Orzel Bialy)

Post #: 66

- 8/6/2002 6:48:28 AM

Drex

Posts: 2524
Joined: 9/13/2000
From: Chico,california
Status: offline

As a user of maps in my heavy pbem schedule, I appreciate the time and effort that goes into making them even though I haven't the foggiest notion of how to do it and neither do I have the inclination. But myself and countless SPWAW fans do supply the need for them. I have always thought David's maps were on a superior level but I have never asked him to make a map for me because I figured he just made them for his own reasons. You might have opened a flood gate here David if you are open to "special map orders" . Orzel announced custom maps were available and the orders came rolling in. I think you would be pleasantly suprised to find how many admirers you have if you made it known you were ready to produce maps on request.

(in reply to Orzel Bialy)

Post #: 67

BTW - 8/6/2002 7:14:18 AM

TimeTanker

Posts: 148
Joined: 6/15/2002
From: Chico,CA
Status: offline

Something I wanted to mention.

I was stationed on the US Coast Guard Cutter Boutwell (WHEC 719) from 1978 thru 1979.

Back then Boutwell was stationed out of Seattle at Pier 39. Today it is stationed in Alameda California.

I was a Quartermaster 3rd Class (Navigation and Signalman). We did 3 FishPats and a SpecOp with the SeaBees in the Bering Sea.

With a name like Boutwell you must have known about the Cutter?

_____________________________

"You can run...but, you will only die tired"

(in reply to Orzel Bialy)

Post #: 68

- 8/6/2002 10:07:58 AM

David boutwell

Posts: 353
Joined: 5/28/2000
From: Haymarket, Virginia, USA
Status: offline

You guys must be married, because you are so proficient at defusing someone who you are sure has laost their mind! :)

Time Tanker,

You caused me to think of an idea. I'm not sure that gathering maps from others' sites would be the best approach. Whether or not the visitors to their sites appreciate maps that have been posted there (or they do appreciate it, but just don't think to acknowledge the person who created it), I think the owners of the sites do. They may receive more visitors to their sites because that material is there (However, in my case, and based upon the lack of feedback in Redleg's guestbook, not one person visited his site, or would return to it, because my stuff was there. So, I don't know what good I'm doing him.), so I think we�d be doing them a disservice to do it that way. How about creating a database, sort of like scenario download sites, that idnetify types of maps, and which website these maps these maps are located at? That makes acquiring these maps more complicated than having the maps "on-site", but at least it respects the agreements that different map-makers have with the different site owners. However, I�m not really familiar with all of the politics of "intellectual property", so I may be way off base.

Yes, I know about the Coast Guard Cutter Boutwell. It was named after a relative of mine, who, I believe was the Secretary of the Treasury under....now, I've probably got it all wrong, so you'll have to correct me Time Tanker. My dad is the geneology researcher. He has traced my family roots back to the early 1600's in North America (Henrico County Virginia)and to Scotland and Germany in Europe on his side of the family. My relative in Scotland was Robert the Bruce's accountant, I believe. He has documentation on 46 Confederate soldiers and at least that many Union soldiers from my family who fought in the Civil War, alone. He is very good at historical reasearch. To give you an example...I was showing him an old warehouse here in Northern Virginia, that was used as a temporary prison by John Mosby, and was across the railroad tracks from Mclellan's headquarters when he was relieved of command of the Army of the Potomac by Lincoln. The current owner came across the street and let us look inside of it. Inside was all of this graffiti from the Civil War (mostly signatures of Union soldiers with their regiment and commander and date). My dad photographed one of them and proceeded to acquire the service records of the guy, and then located the descendents of this guy in West Virginia!) Imagine getting a phone call from a stranger saying that he knows where you can find your ancestor's signature on a wall in a warehouse in Virginia. So, I couldn't help but know about the Boutwell. He has shown me pictures of it more times than necessary!:) I'd like to get any information you have on that ship, so that I could pass it along to my father.

I guess that's where I get my drive for historical research.

Thanks, Drex, for the words of encouragement. You are actually correct about being more or less "booked up" with projects. However, if someone approached me with a proposition for a historical map, and provided resources, such as topo maps and photographs, etc. I think I could be persuaded.

Now, I work very slow for several reasons. First, if I don't have documentation on a certain area of a map, I don't proceed until I do (I'm currently waiting on several topo. maps from Holland to proceed on my Oosterbeek map.) Second, I've got two children under the age of four. Third, work. Fourth, like an artist, I can only work on something when I am in the mood.

But I am open to proposition!

Thanks, Orzel, for the use of your thread.

Regards,

David Boutwell

"Out of ammunition. God save the King."

(in reply to Orzel Bialy)

Post #: 69

George S. Boutwell - 8/6/2002 10:57:49 AM

TimeTanker

Posts: 148
Joined: 6/15/2002
From: Chico,CA
Status: offline

Hi David,

Here is a brief run down on your ancestor. I also tried to paste a picture of the Boutwell. But, not sure if it worked. So I attached it to the file also.

George S. Boutwell (1818-1905) had spent a long career in public service, including tours of duty as the first Commissioner of Internal Revenue (1862-1863) and as a Congressman (1863-1869), before being appointed by President Ulysses S. Grant as Secretary of the Treasury in 1869. His chief objectives as Secretary were to improve the organization of the Department and to continue reducing the national debt. Boutwell set up a system for the manufacture of money which made it easier to detect counterfeit currency and he reorganized the Mint, which became part of the Treasury Department in 1873 after seventy-four years as an independent agency. He also instituted an efficient system of bookkeeping and accounting for the customs houses.

Shortly after his appointment, Boutwell had to rise to the challenge of the infamous "Black Friday", September 23, 1869, when speculators on Wall Street tried to corner the gold market. He successfully blocked their scheme by releasing great quantities of Treasury gold and thereby flooding the market. Boutwell left Treasury in 1873 to return to the Senate.

[IMG]C:\Documents and Settings\Derek\My Documents\My Pictures\Boutwelll[/IMG]

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"You can run...but, you will only die tired"

(in reply to Orzel Bialy)

Post #: 70

Re: Battle of the Bulge maps.... - 8/6/2002 7:27:00 PM

OKW-73

Posts: 237
Joined: 9/1/2001
From: Cyberspace, Finland
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Commander Klank
[B]Hi Orzel, When you get done with those other maps I'd like to put in an order for a few large western front winter maps ie Belgim (sp) in the winter for some Battle of the Bulge based battles.

Could one map be mostly "rural counrtyside" with a few isolated roads going through wooded terrain and maybe a few logging trails.

The other could be the typical "crossroads" town that were fought over during that battle.

[/B][/QUOTE]

if you want scenario like that, there is Battle of Bastogne in my site from M4 Jess

_____________________________

"You can get much farther with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind word alone." - Al Capone

(in reply to Orzel Bialy)

Post #: 71

Re: Suggestion - 8/6/2002 7:32:34 PM

OKW-73

Posts: 237
Joined: 9/1/2001
From: Cyberspace, Finland
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by TimeTanker
[B]I have an idea that occured to me while I was reading your posts.

Why not establish a forum specifically for the Map Makers in the group. Where someone like me who consistantly botches up his attempts to put history into those little hexes; can post a request and then any one of you can either choose to take the request or beg off. I am sure that there is a place for something like this. Where someone could go out to places like OKW, Blitz, Fabio's place, Tankheads, etc. and gather up a lot of those maps and post them. or at least a link to a page with links to every SPW@W site that has a growing list of maps being designed by you guys.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Im against gathering scenarios/maps from sites cause they bring visitor that all site owners love including me :D but a idea of site that would contain links to all scenario/map sites and other related material + forum is nice idea :) as far as those links arent direct links to files ofc ;)

_____________________________

"You can get much farther with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind word alone." - Al Capone

(in reply to Orzel Bialy)

Post #: 72

OKW.... - 8/6/2002 8:11:34 PM

Orzel Bialy

Posts: 2664
Joined: 4/4/2002
From: Wisconsin USA
Status: offline

please note that any talk of a "alternate mappers site" is really more or less "what if" talk right now. Both David and I have already committed ourselves ( David to Redleg and myself to you) to post maps at certain sites. Neither of us have any intentions to break any promises or "go back on our word" just to gain more personal attention. :)

David and I did agree, in theory, that maybe there should be something like a seperate forum, where people could go and search for links to find add-on maps...and/or place a thread to request new maps. From there we could divy out work...as well as do some joint projects which we could then alternately post to certain websites, so as to remain fair.
He told me he had an idea based off of a post and while I haven't heard all the details I'm guessing that it would be something along these lines.

This type of setup would allow us to still serve the community, and still direct traffic to SPWAW "fan" websites. Not to mention it would allow forum members a place to post replies and feedback on the work they download. ( And don't forget that "thanks for the map guys"....as David said, it does wonders for our morale when people acknowledge good work! :) )

Anyway, that's where it stands right now....so I hope no one gets overly alarmed by ideas that are being hashed about right now. ;)

_____________________________

(in reply to Orzel Bialy)

Post #: 73

- 8/6/2002 10:29:10 PM

BryanMelvin

Posts: 1555
Joined: 7/28/2000
From: Colorado, USA
Status: offline

David Boutwell,

Let me place a plug in for your Arnhem/Nigmegen maps! GUYS DOWNLOAD THEM -THEY ARE FANASTIC :D

The final versions are impressive, David! Would it be okay to post them at the Arsenal site? I'll use them for a Campaign. I hope to do Oosterbeek spwaw map soon to ;) and will send it to you.

David - I did raise some of the buildings on your maps to reflect true heights by use of Fred's Map.ed. Hope you do not mind. Now German snipers can use the Church steeples by Frost's bridge as they did in real battle :cool:

Next, Orzel - would it be okay to post a few of your maps at the Arsenal site?

And to all - I hope to have an update for the Arsenal soon:)

_____________________________

MarauderMel

http://www.wargamer.com/hosted/Steelpanthers/index.asp

(in reply to Orzel Bialy)

Post #: 74

- 8/7/2002 9:06:33 AM

David boutwell

Posts: 353
Joined: 5/28/2000
From: Haymarket, Virginia, USA
Status: offline

OKW-73's quote of Commander Klank's request for Battle of the Bulge maps is a perfect case in point.

I've had overlapping maps of all of the battlefields associated with all of the major engagements around Bastogne posted at Tankhead's website for over a year. These maps are accurate, to-scale maps derived from topographic maps found in Osprey/Men-at-Arms' Ardennes Campaign Order of Battle Series.

No one should have to request for new ones to be made, unless they just don't like them, which is a perfectly acceptable reason. But to ask for maps that are already out there because the person requesting them doesn't know that they are there is, I would say unfortunate, not on the part of the person that asks for them, but on the part of the community.

This is a great reason to have a site where people can go to look for LINKS TO SITES where the map that they need may already be, or where they can request one.

Bryan,

Thanks for your continued support! I don't care if you adjust the elevations in the Arnhem map. That saves me from having to go back and do it! :D Just send me a copy when you are through! (rename it Bryan's adjusted Arnhem or something) Where did you get the true heights of the buildings? I just haven't had time to retrofit the elevations on that map, as I'm working on my other Market-Garden maps, now. I'm glad that someone wants to do something with it. I do, by the way, have a 26 turn scenario for that map. It depicts the first day of the battle around the bridge, as well as the early attempt by 1st Para Brigade to break through to the bridge. It is a very big scenario! All possible forces are used on both sides, and all of them are historically accurate (including their names, which some people prefer the simple "Infantry Squad" as opposed to "1/2/1 Para".) It is a grueling infantry brawl, which many people don't like. It also has no clear winner, many times, which doesn't bother me, because I designed the scenario to model history, not achieve sum numerical victory, although I busted my butt to try to make this scenario work that way. I guess that's why I've never posted it. However, anyone who wants it can have it!

I'm looking forward to seeing your Oosterbeek map. I too am working on Oosterbeek! Didn't we work on Hill 112 at the same time as well??? (For you guys who know neither of us, Marauder is from where I live now. He moved to where I always dreamed of livingt (until I moved here). And we're always working on the same stuff at the same time! That's scary....) What are your resources for your Oosterbeek map?

Regards,

David Boutwell

"Out of ammunition. God save the King."

(in reply to Orzel Bialy)

Post #: 75

- 8/7/2002 9:40:32 PM

BryanMelvin

Posts: 1555
Joined: 7/28/2000
From: Colorado, USA
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by David boutwell
[B]
Bryan, Thanks for your continued support! I don't care if you adjust the elevations in the Arnhem map. That saves me from having to go back and do it! :D Just send me a copy when you are through! (rename it Bryan's adjusted Arnhem or something) Where did you get the true heights of the buildings? I just haven't had time to retrofit the elevations on that map, as I'm working on my other Market-Garden maps, now. I'm glad that someone wants to do something with it. I do, by the way, have a 26 turn scenario for that map. It depicts the first day of the battle around the bridge, as well as the early attempt by 1st Para Brigade to break through to the bridge. It is a very big scenario! All possible forces are used on both sides, and all of them are historically accurate (including their names, which some people prefer the simple "Infantry Squad" as opposed to "1/2/1 Para".) It is a grueling infantry brawl, which many people don't like. It also has no clear winner, many times, which doesn't bother me, because I designed the scenario to model history, not achieve sum numerical victory, although I busted my butt to try to make this scenario work that way. I guess that's why I've never posted it. However, anyone who wants it can have it!

I'm looking forward to seeing your Oosterbeek map. I too am working on Oosterbeek! Didn't we work on Hill 112 at the same time as well??? (For you guys who know neither of us, Marauder is from where I live now. He moved to where I always dreamed of livingt (until I moved here). And we're always working on the same stuff at the same time! That's scary....) What are your resources for your Oosterbeek map?

Regards, David Boutwell [/B][/QUOTE]

Look forward to seeing the final version of your Arnhem battle - send it my way ;) As for Oosterbeek map - it will be made from Topo Map from "Campaigns in the West Vol. II" as well as from Air Photos. As for Raising some of the important Buildings - I use Air Photos as well as correct the Building on slope bug that makes buildings the same level as a slope in spwaw terms. As for the Hill 112 map - I had to put this on hold till some family issues get sorted out (Wife's father is facing Heart Failure and other medical issues with my own father too and then work). Hope to have Map 112 done soon - it is almost complete :cool:

Have you thought of making a campaign with your maps David?

_____________________________

MarauderMel

http://www.wargamer.com/hosted/Steelpanthers/index.asp

(in reply to Orzel Bialy)

Post #: 76

Re: OKW.... - 8/7/2002 10:01:34 PM

OKW-73

Posts: 237
Joined: 9/1/2001
From: Cyberspace, Finland
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Orzel Bialy
[B]please note that any talk of a "alternate mappers site" is really more or less "what if" talk right now. Both David and I have already committed ourselves ( David to Redleg and myself to you) to post maps at certain sites. Neither of us have any intentions to break any promises or "go back on our word" just to gain more personal attention. :) [/B][/QUOTE]

Yes i understand that "what if" talk and i am thankful for you to committing yourself to my site, that is honor to me to have so good map maker in my "team" ;)

[QUOTE][B]David and I did agree, in theory, that maybe there should be something like a seperate forum, where people could go and search for links to find add-on maps...and/or place a thread to request new maps. From there we could divy out work...as well as do some joint projects which we could then alternately post to certain websites, so as to remain fair.
He told me he had an idea based off of a post and while I haven't heard all the details I'm guessing that it would be something along these lines.

This type of setup would allow us to still serve the community, and still direct traffic to SPWAW "fan" websites. Not to mention it would allow forum members a place to post replies and feedback on the work they download. ( And don't forget that "thanks for the map guys"....as David said, it does wonders for our morale when people acknowledge good work! :) )[/B][/QUOTE]

I agree with that 100% :)

[QUOTE][B]Anyway, that's where it stands right now....so I hope no one gets overly alarmed by ideas that are being hashed about right now. ;) [/B][/QUOTE]

heheh..was'nt "alarmed", just did say what i think about someones idea to gather maps/scenarios, but i guess it was stated before that it wouldnt work that way... :D

_____________________________

"You can get much farther with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind word alone." - Al Capone

(in reply to Orzel Bialy)

Post #: 77

- 8/8/2002 2:47:05 AM

David boutwell

Posts: 353
Joined: 5/28/2000
From: Haymarket, Virginia, USA
Status: offline

Bryan,

Sorry to hear about your father-in-law. I'll send you my Arnhem battle, but play it just to play it, not to evaluate whether or not the points are balanced, etc. I think that I'm going to break it down into several smaller engagements so that it can more easily be played like a typical scenario. Did i ever send you a copy of my Hil 112 map? I need to go back and adjust the elevations with WAWMAP, now that I am more comfortable with that program. When I made that map, a I'd never worked in inspection mode of WAWMAP.

Yes, I've thought of making a campaign for the British 1st Airborne portion of Market-Garden. I just need to finish the landing zone maps and Oosterbeek, then I'll be able to work on the scenarios. However, I've never designed a campaign, so I may give you a holler.

Regards,

David Boutwell

"Out of ammunition. God save the King."

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BryanMelvin
[B]

Look forward to seeing the final version of your Arnhem battle - send it my way ;) As for Oosterbeek map - it will be made from Topo Map from "Campaigns in the West Vol. II" as well as from Air Photos. As for Raising some of the important Buildings - I use Air Photos as well as correct the Building on slope bug that makes buildings the same level as a slope in spwaw terms. As for the Hill 112 map - I had to put this on hold till some family issues get sorted out (Wife's father is facing Heart Failure and other medical issues with my own father too and then work). Hope to have Map 112 done soon - it is almost complete :cool:

Have you thought of making a campaign with your maps David? [/B][/QUOTE]

(in reply to Orzel Bialy)

Post #: 78

- 8/8/2002 5:50:29 AM

BryanMelvin

Posts: 1555
Joined: 7/28/2000
From: Colorado, USA
Status: offline

David, you could try to use units destroyed Points only to deside the winner. This means using one Victory flag on map set at low points and the rest set at zero and do not appear on map during scenario.

You sent me a rough draft of two Hill 112 maps that were like mine - not completely finished :D

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MarauderMel

http://www.wargamer.com/hosted/Steelpanthers/index.asp

(in reply to Orzel Bialy)

Post #: 79

- 8/8/2002 8:04:08 AM

JonnieWalker

Posts: 34
Joined: 7/27/2002
From: Odessa, Ukraine
Status: offline

I think its nice idea to create map forum, with best examples of map making art :) ecpecialy its good for such lazy and parasite players like me :) , who like to play but yet havent will to make something by own. What about Caen map ? Or its already exists ?

BTW, how to regulate purchase points ? I always have 5800, how to reduce it ? For by the mail games i mean.

(in reply to Orzel Bialy)

Post #: 80

- 8/8/2002 10:09:34 AM

David boutwell

Posts: 353
Joined: 5/28/2000
From: Haymarket, Virginia, USA
Status: offline

Johny Walker,

A Caen map would be a great map to make. Speaking of Caen, I'm a map of Hill 112, which is south (I could be turned around this evening)of Caen. The D-Day maps are next on my hit list. I do know that they have been done in the past, but in comparing the Gold Beach map to some of my soureces, they surprisingly did not match very well. So, they may just need to be redone. I have several very expert sources, in the form of Tim Kilvert-Jones, the author of the Battleground Europe Series' volumes on Omaha and Sword Beaches, and Bill Schneck, of the US Army Mine Warfare Command at Fort Belvoire, VA, who has done research on the prepared defensive positions of the D-Day landing beaches. Can you say "Bigot Maps"? (Formerly classified maps of the landing beaches)

Regards,

David Boutwell

"Out of ammunition. God save the King."

(in reply to Orzel Bialy)

Post #: 81